Community and Identity: Engaging Children in Conversation with Dr. Patrick Makokoro

0:00:00    Alyssa

You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I get to share a friend of mine with you. Dr. Patrick Makokoro is a social entrepreneur, an early childhood development practitioner, an educational researcher with extensive experience working in community and international development. I got to meet Patrick when we were both presenting at the World Forum for Early Childhood Education. I met him in Panama, and then we both bound up seeing each other again. We were selected as experts for UNESCO, for United Nations Education Congress, and there were nine experts selected globally, and he and I were each there and just ran into each other. He is a human who I love learning from and just being in conversation with. He's done such incredible work. I'm so jazzed to get to share about it with y 'all today and chat about what it looks like to navigate community and identity and how to engage children in conversation around this. The work that he's carried out includes early child education development program implementation in Africa and the US. He is the principal consultant at the HuUbuntu Consulting. It's a specialized consulting firm bringing strength -based philosophies to business and not -for -profits to manage strategic planning, influence grantmaking and philanthropy, team wellness, culture development, and building accountability. He's published various books, including a memoir called Nhaka Yenyu: Your Inheritance, a children's book series called Hu- Ubuntu: I Am Because We Are, and some academic books. Y'all, soak this human up. enjoy this conversation as much as I did. All right, let's dive in. 

00:01:59    Alyssa

Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together. 

00:02:21    Alyssa

So what is this book that you're working on now? 

00:02:24    Dr. PMak

So, I started a children's book series. 

00:02:28    Alyssa

I didn't know this. Oh, I did know this, that's right. No, I did know this. 

00:02:33    Dr. PMak

So, this is the first Hu-Ubuntu: I am because we are. It's the first in the children's book series. So, I'm currently working on just finalizing the edits for the second book, which is out in January, ahead of Black History Month. And so, just tidying it up and just making sure that everything is smooth. 

00:02:51    Alyssa

Perfect. And what's that one? 

00:02:52    Dr. PMak

So it's still Hu-Ubuntu: I Am Because We Are, but community, so it's going to have a lens of community. And so it continues the journey of the first book in terms of the background to the first book really was an interesting story, really. It is for my end, right, that my son was racialized and bullied when he was five here in Canada, in Victoria. And that was terrible. I mean, I got a call to the school. I go there, my son is in the corner, he's crying, and I'm saying, what's going on? And he's like, Dad, I can't talk. Let's go home. Right. And so like, no, we just need to understand what's going on. And then he says, well, I've been bullied and this was going on. I said, how long has this been going for? And he's been going on for time. Why didn't you tell me, buddy? Like, well, I was afraid that I would make any friends. Right. And so long and short of it, we pulled out, was pulling him out of the school. The teacher apparently knew about these incidents that were going on, never minded to talk to us or tell us about them. And the things that were being said to him are very, very hurtful, not even just considering his age, but are hurtful to be said by anyone at whatever age. And these are five -year -olds, right? Saying, saying, why are you at our school? What are you doing here? You're coming to take to eat our food, the kids were saying, and go back to Africa. Five -year -olds, insane as it were. For me, even as an educator, as a social entrepreneur, I recognize that these conversations that stem out of dinner table discussions with the background I have in child development and your the social construction of identity. Children are not born racist, right? Really just the conversations that they partake of, the conversations that they hear, right? Children imitate, right? Learn by imitation in so many ways. And so that was sad, really. And so - 

00:04:59    Alyssa

Heartbreaking. 

00:05:00    Dr. PMak

Heartbreaking. For a number of years, at least I struggled to deal with it. November last year, we're having dinner with a friend and, you know, just having conversations. And my son runs up and says, dad, you've been writing a lot. Why don't you write a children's book? And then I was like, about what son? And then just as I said about what, immediately I got this sense of here's an outlet for you. And then I just responded back and I said, would it be okay with you if I wrote about your story, about the incident that happened to your school so that other children here in Canada and around the world can also get handles and ways of dealing with what you and I and the family have been up to. And he's like, oh, yeah, sure. And then he just ran off, ran downstairs. And they stuck with me. And so started this first book, right? And titled it, Hu-Ubuntu I Am Because We Are, because in my language from Zimbabwe, mannerisms and values are part of sort of, you know, of the norms that we grow up being taught by elders. And in Shona Unhu means menace, right? And in Zulu in South Africa, ubuntu means I am because we are, right? That your destiny and my destiny are really inextricably linked, right? And so when we think about the climate crisis, we all have to partner together to address the climate crisis. It's not that we address it in Southern Africa and it's not going to affect North America or we address it in North America, it's not going to affect Southern Africa. All of us as humanity, we have to come together and address this thing. And so when I think about race, the construction of race and the issues of racism, particularly as they affect young children and adults too, it's something that we have to confront together, right? And so I coined the term HuUbuntu, bringing in these two words, Unhu and Ubuntu to say, I am because we are. And then I just, you know, chronicled Pana's journey, finding friendships and community, and then working with some of his best friends now, who don't look anything like him in terms of, you know, racial, racial identity. I wish I was there when you were five, then we would have just, you know, and then there, but until - 

00:07:27    Alyssa

I love it. We gotta get those kids some royalties, Patrick. 

00:07:31    Dr. PMak

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, we spoke about it. We spoke about it, Alyssa. We spoke about it. And he said, dad, you've been doing amazing work through your foundation. All of the money that's coming from that book is going to the foundation. So we've actually set up an endowment fund. All of the proceeds from the book sales, from my memoir book sales and from this are going back to the foundation to assist young orphans and vulnerable children. 

00:07:53    Alyssa

Look at that human you're raising, Patrick. Look at that human you're raising. Look at what you're modeling for him at your dinner table. Yeah. Talk to me more, talk to me more about the foundation and the work that you're doing through the foundation. 

00:08:09    Dr. PMak

So I founded the Nhaka Foundation back in 2008. And the inspiration from it was really having worked for, you know, an American nonprofit back then. My boss at that particular time was coming in with a single -minded frame of reference in terms of how to work in communities that have got, you know, low level of resources, you know, don't have, you know, access to classrooms, et cetera, et cetera. One day during a meeting, you know, and I was just questioning and asking him about, hey, why aren't we creating more sustainable ways of working with community, more sustainable ways that leave communities empowered, that leave the communities able to do, you know, much of what we're doing by themselves? Why are we just giving it out? Yeah. And he said to me, he looked at me and said, Patrick, we are firefighters. We're just coming in to douse a fire, and at that moment— 

00:09:00    Alyssa

No fire prevention. 

00:09:02    Dr. PMak

No fire prevention. At that moment, I was like, okay, so we're not even preventing the fire. We're just coming in, dousing, and then we're out and up to the next day. At that moment, I made the decision to quit my job. I communicated that to him, I think, an hour or two hours after our meeting. I was like, nah, I don't believe in this. I'm out. And then took some time to do some soul -searching and decided to form Nhaka Foundation. And so Nhaka Foundation is a registered 541c3 organization that really seeks to increase access to education, health care, food, and anything that we can do to ensure that young orphans and vulnerable children in Southern Africa have got what I call an access to have a better life, better opportunities. And so the foundation over the years has fed, has built classrooms, has renovated classrooms, has bought tables and chairs, has increased access to health. We've got every single week, we've got nurses going out to the schools to do basic health checks on young kids, making sure that they check. We go with dentists that go out there and make sure that the kids get checked, height and weight measurement, make sure that the kids are developing appropriately according to their age. and just ensure that they have a life that's full of possibility. 

00:10:24    Alyssa

Yeah, what every child deserves. 

00:10:28    Dr. PMak

What every child deserves. And this is based on the premise of ensuring that the community is involved at every bit, right? So we don't take leadership on so many issues. We work with community elders and leaders to say, hey, how do we address this? And how do we support you to address this problem in the community? So communities are forming in groups of people, of leaders coming together, of men, women, children coming together to collect bricks and sand and all of these things and say, okay, we've managed to collect all of this. What we don't have is we don't have money to buy the cement. We don't have money to bring in a roof. We don't have, so we step in as Nhaka and say, we're going to come in and help you. Now that you've got this 50%, we're going to come in with the other 50%. And gosh, Alyssa, they, the communities are amazing. They look after the resources, they steward the buildings, they, they take ownership of it, because it is theirs. It's not we don't. So if you ask me, how many Nhaka schools do you have? I don't have any Nhaka schools. Yeah, so many hundreds of schools that we have been a part of building from the scratch from from the ground up. So if you you know, go to Nhakafoundation.org, you're able to read more about what we're doing. And so through the power of partnerships, my philosophy is that, again, no man, no person is an island. I champion humanity, collaboration, and compassion. And so through Nhaka Foundation, we also offer opportunities for anyone from around the world to go on a volunteer trip, to go on a mission out to Southern Africa and we join hands together. And part of it too is just allowing folks, whether it's students, it's professionals, just allowing folks to be in a different setting, to be in a different country, to be able to not only reflect in terms of where they are coming from and the privileges that exist in certain contexts, but also to be a helpful hand or to be a listening ear or to do something, right? And all of this in a bid to make the world a better place. 

00:12:30    Alyssa

I love this, and there's a couple things that I'm thinking about that came up. So one, I think of, I love the volunteer program, and I think one thing that is so key in thinking of white saviorism is that when we're going into these spaces and walking in, that it's not from a place of pity or, oh my gosh, it must be so hard to live here. I think about the gifts of being able to see communities that exist outside of the ones that we know and see the value and everything, not just everything they aren't and everything they don't have, but everything they are and everything they do have and get to learn from a cultural context globally. And it ties for me back into the education system I'm thinking here in the in the States where as you were speaking about like they do the first 50 % and we come in and help with the other one and that they're co -creating this. Think about this in the way of early childhood and in classrooms of like so often it is top -down. It's the teacher saying here's what we're doing. Here are our classroom rules. Here's how we show up. I'm gonna be this authority figure and what it ends up leading to often is this power struggle and misbehavior and dysregulation and that shift in lens to what if we were in community, what if our kids were co -owners of the classroom? 

00:14:02    Dr. PMak

That's right. 

00:14:03    Alyssa

What would that look like? You know what I mean? I just started dreaming and I was like, I love this just as a mentality shift. 

00:14:09    Dr. PMak

I love it and you're on a good point and I love that mentality shift because as an author I just, again, this year published my memoir. And so on chapter 18, I write about stories and lessons. And the big part of this chapter is white civil reason, right? To say, how do we step back, right? So Nhaka Foundation over the years has had hundreds of volunteers from all over the world. And we've had lots of volunteers coming from the United States. And through that, I've managed to learn a lot and observe a lot. And also see the transformation that comes through from, you know, I think of Vygotsky's theory, right? Of the more knowledgeable others, right? I see when you talk about the zone of proximal development and the more knowledgeable others that when people step off the plane onto the tarmac in Harare, in Zimbabwe, the more knowledgeable others are like, okay, we're here, we're gonna do this and this and this, this is our action plan. And then when they step back onto the plane to come back, they're totally transformed. People are humbled, the volunteers are humbled by the number of things they didn't know about community and about the world. Two, how simple life can be without any trinkets around, right? And number three, the power of partnerships because people then step back and say, hold on, hold on, hold on. Here's a community that we thought was impoverished, that we thought did not have anything. Yet, the key thing that comes in is it's so community -centric. It's not individualistic. So really within this community, they don't see poverty. They see community. They see each person playing one role to be able to assist the other. Back in the North, in the Western hemisphere, individualism. I am getting first on the train, off the subway, or I'm doing this, right? And so you're right, Alyssa that, wouldn't it be so great that, you know, we, we, we learn from community, we learn about the power of partnerships, we bring that into the classrooms, right, we promote home school relationships, we promote a parent teacher, great parent, teacher or caregiver, and teacher relationships, because at the end of the day, the child benefits from that, right. And so in Chapter 18 of my memoir, I speak about it, I speak about elephant and mouse, right, who were two friends who went out to party. And this is a story that I learned from my elder, right, went out to have a party. And, you know, elephant is excited, is jumping around, stomping and enjoying the bees and getting on with the groove. And, you know, forgets about his friend mouse. And then halfway through the party, he's like, oh my word, where's mouse? Hey, mouse, mouse, where are you? Mouse, where are you? And lo and behold, mouse is laying at the elephant's feet, bloodied, trampled over by his friend, the elephant. Now, I use that example in my book to talk about this white saviorism concept and notion, that many at time people step onto a plane to go to, it could be to South America, it could be to the majority world somewhere and step on the plane to go there saying, okay, we're gonna go help, we're gonna take $10 ,000 or $20 ,000, we're gonna take 500 and this is gonna be transformational. And when they land, they leave the money, do a project, and then get back on the plane, leaving the communities in a worse -off position than they would have found them. Why? Because they thought that money is going to answer these problems, money is going to solve this. Or speak to my 2008 experience, that we're going to go in and just fight this fire and leave. We're not making communities any better, right? So I ask individuals and people that embark on these volunteer trips to step back a little bit and consider elephant, right? Say, how could elephant have approached the party in a better way, right? How could he have made space, right? To ensure that the elephant, which is a big animal and the mouse can also play together alongside, playing together in the sandbox, as it were. And so, yeah, thanks for raising that. It's something that's near and dear to my heart and also based on my experiences, I managed to capture that in my memoir as well. 

00:18:31    Alyssa

Patrick, what's the name of your memoir again? 

00:18:35    Dr. PMak

The memoir is called Nhaka Yenu: Your Inheritance, and it can be found on Amazon.com, on Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Books A Million, Walmart, online store, it's available there. 

00:18:50    Alyssa

I love it. I haven't read it yet, and I'm excited to dive into it. When we're thinking about the dinner tables, right, where these conversations are happening, I am thinking about like, if somebody's tuning in, what we wish they would know and would take away because what we know is that your five -year -old, it didn't start with him, right? Like, I'm sure you have faced mountains of racism as a fundraiser, I'm sure there's a lot of bias around giving money to a black man, right? And just the realities of racism for you and then the realities of racism for your son and how we can start to shift this. What does it look like to break some of these cycles and what do you wish that parents knew about this and teachers? 

00:19:50    Dr. PMak

Wow. I mean, such a profound question too. And one of the things that I lightly mentioned in my memoir is your earlier point about how for me, even as a black man, I struggle to raise funds to this day. Not because of I don't have the talent, the skill, the expertise or my teams that are doing this work don't know what they're doing, but it's because of where I am and how I look. Period. 

00:20:12    Alyssa

They're like, sure, in email, it sounds great. And then they see you in real life and they're like, actually... 

00:20:17    Dr. PMak

Nah, nah, no, no. Can we have this more additional information and this and this and you provide, you provide it and then you, sooner or later I'm like, you know what, I've been down this road before, you know what, let's just end this conversation and let's move. That's it. 

00:20:33    Alyssa

I think like, just to like go deeper into this question, I guess, racism is such a huge topic. And I think the umbrella of it can just feel, I think sometimes daunting of like, okay, now I have to take like full stock of like, what systems am I fitting into? What am I doing? What am I modeling? And I think it can be one of those where it's like stalled at the start of where do I start? What do I start saying? Or how do I have these conversations? So thinking about like parents and teachers who are listening and are like, okay, so what do we do? 

00:21:08    Dr. PMak

I think the first step is bring humanity into a conversation, right? I think about, again, what I mentioned earlier on the social construction of identity, That race is socially constructed, right? And if you look at me, Alyssa, you would not even know about my background and how I grew up. I detailed in my memoir how I grew up in a family with white brothers and sisters, right? That to this day, we fight as siblings and we are crazy, right? And you don't know that. So you may be like, you know, one would be like, well, he's black and my bias kicks in and then a lot of things, you know, get said. So first up is see Patrick as Patrick, see Patrick as a human being. See Alyssa, see my son, Pana, my daughter, Chi Chi as human beings first, right? What do we bring into the conversation? We bring humanity. Second, we bring just this issue of compassion and wanting to hear the story because up until you ask a question, you don't know what you don't know, right? And so as parents, as teachers, we have to question, we have to ask questions. Oh, Pana, I see you're turning up to school with this kind of thing. Can you tell me a little bit more about it? Well, my dad said or my mom said this is part of our culture and this is the dress that we wear. Oh, wow, your culture is interesting. Would you be okay if I reached out to your mom and asked her to come to class or your dad and asked her to come to class and share with all of us what your culture is so that we all learn? Right? Earlier on, I was telling you about the book that I'm working on now that's going to be out in January, the children's book that's going to be out in January, we do that, right? And I wrote about our culture, I wrote about the things that I'm proud of that I've shared with my children as their story so that they can also embrace and be comfortable and love their culture where they're coming from and say, wow, we did this, our ancestors did this and this and this. So being curious as parents is important. Being curious as teachers is important. But importantly, too, is being human beings, being wonderful human beings, because it's just the pigment in our skin, right, that makes, that differentiates us in terms of, you know, in terms of, you know, color and appearance. But deep down, we all have, and I say this, perhaps not in a meta -affected way, but perhaps in even an authoritative way, because I grew up with brothers and sisters that had different skin pigment. Now, we cry about bills, we cry about, oh my gosh, our kids, this is happening, and this, and this, and this, and this. The only difference when you look at us, when you see us as siblings having this conversation is, oh, okay, he looks different, he looks different. But why are they talking about the same thing? Because we're human beings. Yeah. Right? 

00:23:52    Alyssa

Yeah, finding that like sameness. I also think like, I'm thinking about like, who's often centered and my context is within the United States in such an individualistic space that is so white centered. And I think that a lot of us, at least here, grew up in cultures where it was presented to us as our culture is the culture and then there are other cultures. And so looking at this of like, I think about how I wanna talk to my kids, it's how I want to talk to Sage and talk to Mila about what we believe and what we do. And my son attends a Jewish preschool and we're not Jewish. And he, so we talk about, well, you know, they had Rosh Hashanah off. And so we're talking about Rosh Hashanah and what this is. And yes, some people believe X, Y, and Z. And when we talk about our culture, one of the shifts I've started to make is saying like, well, in our family we believe, but not a like, this is true. That like, there is this, or this is, I think solidifies a like, this is the way, and then other people believe these things. And really trying to not just like center us. You know what I mean? Like that's been, I think honestly, from him being at this preschool, has come up for me a bunch of like, well, if I'm gonna talk about what other folks believe that might be different from our beliefs, I can't say to him for sure, here's what is true and this is what they believe. It's like, here's what we believe, here's what other folks believe, and you get to choose what feels right for you. 

00:25:34    Dr. PMak

I mean, that's such a profound way of modeling, right? Humanity, and thank you for that leadership that you're providing in your home. I reflect just yesterday, I teach a course at our local university here, and we're talking about, one of my students was talking about their belief system, right? And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Tell me some more because I'm reading like crazy about Buddhism because I want to understand, I want to learn, I want to teach myself, right? I've also learned and read around Islam and wanted to understand and know. I have Jewish friends and I talk to them and ask them about their culture. I talk to them about traditions and they ask me questions about my culture and my traditions. And in all of these conversations, including yesterday in my classroom, I was trying as well to model this notion that there's no one culture that's above the other, that we can all learn from each other and we can all live together, right? If it were not that it's still in draft, I would have shared with you the book cover for the January book that's coming out, children's book that's coming out. Just to give you a hint is, is you've got my son standing and behind him is this map of the world. And what was going through my mind as we were designing that was, hey, this is the one Earth that we have, that we, we got to take care of. And to be able to take care of this, let's look into ourselves first. As a people on this Earth, who are we? How can we relate with one another so that we are better able to steward this Earth? And so culture is important, but it's not one culture. It's all the cultures, right? It's not one religion. It's all the religions. At last check, there are 4 ,000 plus religions. Why shouldn't I invest time at least to study five or six or seven of those religions? So I'm on that path of studying and trying to understand and learn and appreciate, right? Because as a leader, one of the things that I believe is that I can't take people where I've never been. So I can't model something that I've never practiced, right? And so I'm really, really trying to study and to read hard and to understand these religions and ask my friends that practice or from these religions or that follow these religions to ask them questions, respectfully honoring them so that we learn. So again, something that can be brought back into the classroom, being inquisitive, respectfully inquisitive, right? Asking and bringing in the knowledgeable others on a particular topic back into the classroom, right? According to Vagosky, right? Bring them back into the classroom. Let them teach our children. and let's have circle time, right? And say, well, today, Pana's mom is in class today and they're gonna talk to us about their traditional meal that they make, right? And they're gonna talk to us about the history. How did this meal get, you know, how did it come into fruition? Or they're gonna talk to us, gonna share with us a traditional bedtime story, right? Before we take our afternoon nap, right? These things, if they're done consciously, if they're done with a way that is, How can I put it? In a way that really is coming from a deep good place, a deep authentic place, will become meaningful. The four -year -olds, the five -year -olds that we will see turning up at schools and in classrooms will have a different lens. They'll be respectful of cultures. They will not see Africa as that place that's coming to take this from us. They'll see Africa as, hey, that's a whole big continent that has different languages and different cultures that we can learn from. They can see the Europe, for example, as a different continent with different countries, different cultures. See, the U .S. is one huge country that also within this country has different cultures and ways of being and ways of doing, right? And so they become respectful. 

00:29:32    Alyssa

Okay. I love so much about this. And I am thinking about like, what's the fear of not doing this, right? So I grew up in a really like white Christian community. I grew up in a Catholic home and I feel grateful that in my household, it was, I went to like a Baptist summer school at one point because I was curious about it and my parents were like, sure, check it out. They weren't afraid of me learning and then leaving the religion, But I think this is a fear that like, if we are saying this is what we believe, but we're not positive what's true, this is what we believe to be true, and you can learn about these other things, that our kids might not believe what we believe. And that I think for a lot of folks, that feels very risky, you know, and I think there's fear there of like, what if they don't believe what we believe? 

00:30:29    Dr. PMak

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's when I think about that. Right. What do we fear? What do people fear? Look at power as a construct, right? And so one big fear that's there is the loss of power, right? Because we go back and I go back and I'll take you back, Alyssa, to colonialism, right? The reason why the British empire was so strong was because it enforced its culture over other people's culture, power. Yes. So when the British colonizers went, for example, to my home country of Zimbabwe, the one thing they would do is, well, your religion is not good enough. You are savages, you're barbarians, you kill each other, you do this, this, this, this, this. Because they were trying to say, we're bringing in this gospel. 

00:31:21    Alyssa

Here's our upgrade. 

00:31:23    Dr. PMak

And this is the upgrade, this is the truth. Yeah. Right? And that was power. And so, OK, it wasn't received like, OK, we receive it. No, no, no, no. It had to be forced down. Right. I think of even here in Canada, I think of the history with the indigenous people. I think about the horror and the trauma that, you know, happened in the 60s with the 60s Scoop and the residential school systems and all of that traumatic, horrific things. But behind all of that was power. Right. So there's a fear of losing power. And so that goes through generations. It just continues to perpetuate across generations, right? So how do we even begin to go back to it? We think about humanity for me as a practice, humanity, compassion, and collaboration, right? I use these three within my organizations to say, hey, if we want to dismantle this whole power thing, let me look at Alyssa as a colleague and work with her from the basis of humanity, of compassion and collaboration. Will we agree on everything? No, we will not. But we will respectfully come to the table and I'll say, hey, Alyssa, I see what you're saying there. Struggled a little bit to process it because this is how it appeared to me. Oh, Patrick, gosh, I could see how that would appear to you. I'm so, so sorry. This is what, like, I get it. Oh, it could be me. Hey, Alyssa, I'm so, so sorry this appeared to you this way. This is what I was trying to do. And so bringing that back is very, very important. And as we model that, our kids see that both in the home and in the classroom. Right. They'll be like, huh, if our parents can do that, then. And remember earlier on when we started our chat, I was talking about how children learn from by imitation, right? They see how we speak. They see the language that we see, culture itself. They see the things that we participate in, in the home and in community, and they learn and they see it as the way of doing things. So, if that's the way they are learning, why aren't we doing the things that will give the best outcomes for the young kid? 

00:33:26    Alyssa

Because it means us doing them too, right? And that is the hard part. It's so much easier to say it than it is to do it, my friend. It's so real. And just like modeling it is so much harder than being like, hey kid, you should do this. I am not gonna do this, but you should do it. 

00:33:45    Dr. PMak

I'm not gonna do it, you do it, you do it, you do it. I'm not doing it, I'm not doing it, you do it. It's real, it's real, it's real, it's real. 

00:33:53    Alyssa

I love this so much though, and I think we've gotten so far away from the ability to have, not just even coexist, but have respect for somebody who has different practices, beliefs, looks different from who we are. And it's tricky because I think like, yeah, if there's somebody who doesn't believe that that other person is human or should exist, like, yeah, we don't have shared values is around somebody's, not even just like identity, but their life, like their right to life. And that it can be, and I feel like that's become the narrative is that if this person, and right now we're in election season over here, that is, there's a little bit of fire happening, you know? 

00:34:42    Dr. PMak

Yeah, a little bit is an understatement. It's blazing. 

00:34:48    Alyssa

And so, like, there's just, I feel like everywhere I turn, it's that if you support this person or if you vote this way, you are. And here's where, like, all the biases and just the, we can assign things to folks. And I feel so, it's interesting because I live in Burlington, Vermont, which is, I mean, Bernie Sanders is our senator. It's a very progressive, our mayor is from the Progressive Party, it is a very progressive area. And I sometimes call it the Progressive Olympics. It's like you can't compete. Everything you do, it's not the right word you're supposed to use now. It's whatever, right? It can be so overwhelming. And then I'm from a small town in Western New York that is predominantly going to vote for Trump and is really white and Christian and rural and feels so unseen and disconnected from a lot of things that have happened in the States. And I'm like, God, there are people I love in both of these spaces. And when I hit up social media, I'm being told I'm not supposed to love either of them for different reasons, right? These people are to this, these people are to that. And I'm like, No, I know this person. Right. And I think that we as adults have just gotten so far from this, that the idea of teaching it to kids feels daunting when we don't know how to practice it. 

00:36:26    Dr. PMak

Okay, so so I'm going to go into just a political speak for respond to some of the issues that have come up. So part of modeling, right, and I love how this conversation is move is part of part of modeling is we do in the home what we should do in the community and what we should do out in the world. Right. And so when I follow the U .S. election and the conversations that are going on. At a leadership level, 

00:36:51    Alyssa

Bless. Cheers to even following it, because wow. 

00:36:55    Dr. PMak

I'm following it, I'm like, I want to see. So fundamentally, at a leadership level, the leaders should model the things that should be seen in community. On either sides, right? It is absolutely awful to call people garbage. Absolutely awful. Like there's no way - 

00:37:13    Alyssa

On just like a basic level. 

00:37:15    Dr. PMak

On a basic level, no, right? And on the other hand too, it's terrible to call names and to, as leaders, communities, parents, everyone is looking up to you for guidance, right? No matter where you are placed, you have to model the right behavior. And if it's lost there, then everything else, right? So again, my own faith speaks to me about having a good foundation when you're building a house. And so if the foundation is terrible, then whatever you're going to build upon is not going to make sense, right? And so how do we fix it? It starts from leaders knowing that they've got an utmost responsibility of being careful with their words, of modeling empathy, respect, kindness, humility, and all of these things so that, you know, no matter your followers, no matter your strong opinions about something, I will still have to approach Alyssa with respect because she is a human being. So really when I watch what's going on and the political speak that's going on, it's hurtful, right? Because in so many ways, right? You look at, one looks at, coming from the outside, one looks at America and the USA in particular as a champion for democracy, right? And so free elections and all of these things, free and fair elections, and then you sit back and you're like, what is going on? What is going on? 

00:38:40    Alyssa

Feels like a reality TV show. 

00:38:41    Dr. PMak

It's a reality TV show, right? And so some of the things that are upsetting that are being said and that are coming out, when dictators and oppressive regimes from around the world oppress their people, kill their people, who is gonna call them out?  Because the one country that had this, you know, freedom of speech and respect and it's just slid into chaos. Now, everyone else is like, well, we might as well just slide into chaos because that which we saw as a standard that we're aspiring to was actually just a mirage. It was actually just fake, like, they were just hiding things, right? And so I worry a lot because at some point, you know, there was leadership within the, you know, political space around decency, respect, you know, democratic elections and all of these things, but that space is being crowded out. Why? Because of leadership, right? And so it goes back to what we model, whatever level of leadership, whether you're in the classroom as a preschool teacher, or you are at a school as a center director, or you're a program manager, wherever you are, we have the responsibility of modeling what our children would want to do, which is based on kindness, respect, and decency. But my last point, a bag sometimes will have rotten apples, will have people that no matter what you think is right, no matter what you think is decent, no matter what you think is respectful, will just turn out the way they want to turn out. I love them too as people, right? I love them too as people. And I hope and I pray that through the work, for example, through my memoir, through my children's book and through your books, Alyssa, that is, they read this, that at some point they'll be like, you know what, I better be a good human being. My mom and my grandmother always told me, Patrick, you'll never lose anything by just being a decent good boy. Never. Right? And in fact, my grandmother will say, you know, there's no one who has a single day added to their lives because they're being nasty and vengeful and malicious to other people. No one. And she said, I've lived for so long. I've never seen anyone who has had more extra days than they did their lives because they are nasty. So if you can't have any additional days because of being nasty, being racist, being whatever, then why don't you just spend the rest of your time just being nice, cordial, and friendly? 

00:41:15    Alyssa

Patrick, you literally live that out. I've had the privilege of meeting you in person and getting to see you a couple times now in person and never, we've always been in different countries together. We were in Panama together, we were in France together. At some point we'll meet in our home countries. 

00:41:29    Dr. PMak

We'll meet in our home countries at some point, yeah. 

00:41:32    Alyssa

That's right. But you literally live out those values and I keep a little sign here on my desk and we talk about it at Seed that says, your values are only your values if you live them. And it's very easy to speak your values. It's very easy to say like, yes, we need to take care of everybody and we need to, whatever, we need to be kind to everybody. But then if you're posting nasty comments as an adult to another adult online, or you're gossiping about somebody, or you are excluding folks from your child's classroom, are you living your values? And that is, for me, I feel like I had the privilege of growing up in a household with of parents who live their values and they are so far from perfect, so far from perfect and they are, when I think of like, you know, in our household, it was like the what would Jesus do? They embodied that of like, here's the way that I will live and my dad often lives in a Hawaiian shirt and he is gonna show up as very much his own self and with a drink in his hand and he is gonna live out those values though in terms of how he shows up with other humans. And I feel so grateful to have received that and it's something that I think is just, gosh, so much harder said than done. And even down to like, and I wrote about this in my forthcoming book for next year about an instance in my child's classroom last year in a two -year -old classroom where parents came together to try and get and successfully got one of his peers removed from the school saying that he was a bully. And I'm like, he's two. And these are humans who say that they support inclusion, et cetera. And now when it's in your child's classroom, instead of advocating for that kiddo to have all the supports that that kid needed to thrive, they advocated for him to be removed. And it's like your values are only your values if you live them. And so when we're thinking of that here, is what conversations are you having? What are you, what are they watching you do? How do you navigate conflict? Do you engage with people who have a difference of opinion? How do you respond to your child when their opinion is different than yours? I just think like for me, starting there, because so much of it feels outside of my control, right? And like watching the political sphere, all these things where I'm like, yeah, I wish I wish I had these humans in my classroom when they were three, right? And I could foster some skills that they didn't get. And now I just get to watch them on TV and cringe. And so really, truly, for me, I have to keep coming back to my dinner table is the perfect place to start. My house is the perfect place to start in that I might not get to have great impact beyond my house or my child's school community or my immediate community, and that's okay, that's enough. And that if we all focused on our house and our immediate community, imagine a world. 

00:44:53    Dr. PMak

Wow. Mic drop right there, right? That's so profound, right? That it starts from within, right? It starts from within the household, right? The conversations that we speak. you know, one of my favorite books, in fact, the favorite book of mine speaks to me about like, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, right? And so you talk about, you know, you talk about not being inclusive, like, you know, bullying is not okay, and then when it happens, you're not speaking out. It's what do you have in your heart, right? You talk about, you know, these nasty comments that are posted on Facebook or Twitter or, I mean, X or wherever, online platform, it's what is in the heart that's coming out. And so there has to be a perspective where, first of all, let me work for myself, let me work within, let me try and get this heart fixed and ensure that whatever is going to come out of it through the portal of the mouth is right, is noble, is pleasing, is honoring, is respectful, right? And as I do that, I'm modeling within my family and working with my own sphere of influence, right, as you spoke about, you know, the people that you influence, I speak about my own sphere of influence with my family, so that whichever directions they start going out, they're also taking that. Now, there's so many, so many moments and part of it for me is having to unlearn a lot of things that I also learned when I was young from my parents and learn a lot of things that I also saw through my own cultural eyes and say, okay, no, right. So, for example, as young children growing up in Southern Africa, in Zimbabwe, and in our culture true, talking back to elders as a no -no, right? Again, I get the respectful aspect of it. But there was the questioning that comes with it, right? So maybe as kids, we didn't understand, you know, when to, you know, like our emotional intelligence then was like, maybe, well, for me, maybe totally inexistent. 

00:46:55    Alyssa

It was not on the scene. 

00:46:58    Dr. PMak

No, right. And so for me, that was great. Like, kids must not speak back first off, right? And so I've heard over the past 20 years, 25 years of my career in early childhood development say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Kids must speak back. Kids must voice their opinions. Kids must say how they feel, what they see, what they want to do. And that as a parent, I shouldn't force that down. So again, looking within to say, yeah, maybe I was trying to speak back when my dad or my mom was still angry or they were still trying to get a point across and then I'm trying to speak back. No, don't speak back. Wait. So reflect back. Right. And say, OK, I've unlearned that. And so a couple of days ago, my son came to me and I was like, oh, dad, do you know that this and this and this is what's going on with he was talking about the EV truck. So he loves the green energy, he loves the green space. And so he's watching, you know, what Elon Musk is doing with his, you know, Cybertrucks and what he's doing with the semi trucks. And he's saying, that's the future. Now he's 11 and he's talking about all of this. So he came to me and he's like, dad, do you know that UPS has got this huge order and they're trying to do this? And I looked at him, I'm like, huh, what? And previously, many decades, I mean, even before you was born, like, what had been ingrained in my mind was there's nothing new that you can learn from a young child. 

00:48:29    Alyssa

Sure. Yeah. 

00:48:30    Dr. PMak

Like, as an adult, as the more knowledgeable other, you are the one who should carry knowledge all the time. Sure. Right? And then so you fast forward to now where I have kids and I'm looking and he's saying this, I'm like, in my head, I'll confess, in my head, I was like, he's 11 and he's telling me all this stuff. And then I looked at him like, wow, dude, so when was this order made and how many years? And he's like, oh, yeah. And then this. And do you know that what's the other company, the shipping company, FedEx, do you know that FedEx is trying to do this and this and this is they're trying to keep digging, boy, keep digging, keep digging. Because I want to I want to I want us to go for a walk and I want to hear all of these things. Right. And so all of that. The point I'm driving at is it also has to be this the learning and the relearning and looking and introspection has to be a conversation -wide, a family -wide conversation. Say, hey, culturally, there are things that we have learned. I grew up thinking that if this is a conversation within a white -appearing family and say, hey, I grew up thinking that as white people we own the world. That was wrong. We don't. There were a lot of things that went on like colonization and slavery and all of these things, right? So starting from within the home, starting from within the heart, identifying where you stand with those issues, and then working with your family and your community to be able to then create a better path forward. 

00:49:50    Alyssa

Okay, I love this so much, Patrick. I could hang out with you forever. As you were saying, and it was like one of the things we talk about, Sage is three and a half, right? He's three and a half years old, and one of the things we talk about in our household is that you are always welcome. We would love to hear your thoughts and your feelings. You can tell us if you don't like something or you don't want something. It doesn't mean it changes the boundary, but your voice is welcome and there are different ways that you can communicate this when 

00:50:21    Dr. PMak

I love it 

00:50:21    Alyssa

You scream it or you throw something across the room what's gonna happen in everybody's body around you is fear And so they're either gonna freeze or and we talk about he called we talked about them as animals So they're gonna be a lion and they're gonna roar they might yell or they might get big And, or they're going to be, he calls it a frog where it hops away. If they might walk away or run away when they're scared, or they might freeze like a possum and not say anything to you, or they might be a puppy dog and fawn and whatever. And so we talk about this and that like, if you say things in a kind way, which means you have to first notice what's happening in your body and how do you help your body feel calm enough to say something kindly, if, when you say it in a kind way, here are things that happen in somebody else's body. And so here's how that might go for you. That if you come over and you scream, I'm still using that, or I wanna turn, or don't touch that to my sister, then she might reach out and hit you because she feels scared right now. If you come over and you say, Mila, I was having a turn with that. I went to the bathroom and came back. Can I please trade you? Or can we switch? And you offer a switch. Her body, even if she doesn't understand all those words, is probably gonna accept what you give her because she feels safe and allow you to take this other thing because of what your body sounded like. Really coming back to the fact that you can always assert yourself and there will be likely different responses from humans in this world based on how you assert yourself. And that for us, I wanna empower my kids with the tools for regulation so that they get to choose, how do I wanna use my voice in this moment? Is this a time where my voice needs to be big and loud? Or is this a time where I can talk in a quieter voice to connect with somebody or communicate? And those are things that for me, when I think about respect was also just so deeply ingrained in my culture. And for me, I like that part of respect. I like being spoken to in a kind way. I like it when my husband does it, I like it when people around me do it, and I would like them to have that skill set. That feels important to me culturally. And what doesn't feel important to me culturally is that they say nothing, and that their voice isn't heard, which is what I experienced at times culturally, was that you, if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all was a phrase in our household. And I'm like, well, I have nothing nice to say right now, but I would like to still say it. I got some things to say. 

00:53:05    Dr. PMak

I got a ton to say. 

00:53:07    Alyssa

Yeah, that's right. But really looking at that of like from a respect piece for me, just thinking about what are we bringing that sometimes it's not like oh, I don't want my kids to be respectful, like no, I do want that. And I want it in a different way than I had it. 

00:53:26    Dr. PMak

So what you say and I'll go back, I was just jotting some notes down, you know, just the process that you're taking to teach your Sage and Mila about regulation, boy oh boy are they lucky to have you as a mom, to have you both as parents. Because guess what, these are the things that they're taking into their middle childhood, into their adolescence years, youth, and into adulthood, right? That's the foundation I was talking about earlier on, that if a foundation is shaky, Whatever you try and build at age 8, at age 9, at age 10, it's going to be on shaky ground.

00:54:07    Alyssa

Crumbly. 

00:54:07    Dr. PMak

 It's crumbly, right? So starting at age 3, I mean, the brain and we talk about, you know, the meeting we were at in Paris, right? Just talking about the fascinating brain research that's happening, like at age 3, at age 2, like the brain is moving at a fast speed, right? Synapses and neurons are forming connections. And so what you are doing is the regulation is being hardwired into your children's brain, right? So that as they grow up, that basic foundation is going to be there. I got to wait, allow them to speak, and then I'm going to speak. Okay, I've got an emotion right now. I want to express it. Now here's how I can express it in a better way, right? This is a 25, 30 -year -old saying now, and guess what? They are digging back into the deeper, deeper recesses of their mind and say, mom, thank you so much for laying that foundation. Because some of the guys I work with or the people I work with, oh my word, I don't know where they came from, right? Because they didn't have the foundation that you give, right? And so I think about that too as my wife and I work with our kids as we partner on this journey called life, right? And we talk about, in our house, we talk about, hey, what are the essential, and I think it's actually up there on my whiteboard, and my son always laughs when he comes in here, is kindness, humanness, and respect, right? We're like, you know, we're talking, we're having a little workshop in this office of mine. We're like, hey, let's just talk about what does it take to be a good human being, right? Because the world throws us a lot of things, and no doubt to you too, Alyssa, You get all of these things coming in and then there's an expectation of you to return back in another way, right? And so I remember with Chi Chi, our daughter, a lot of things that happened to her at school and she was like, dad, I'm so angry. And I'm like, OK, sweetie, let's let's talk about it. And so we went to Starbucks and we sat there and she was, you know, just out venting. And this has happened and this has happened. And I was like, oh, and I was not. I mean, I was really, really impressed by how she handled herself. Right. And then I said, you know what, Chi Chi, it'd be interesting if we get back home and, you know, when we pick up your brother from school and we go home and mama is back, let's just have a conversation about what it takes to be a decent human being. What are the ingredients, right? And why? Because in my mind, I was like, she's going through a lot of things that could make her think that it's okay to say these things, it's okay to do these things, right? Because they've been done by someone else and a couple of people as a teenager that she is by a couple of people at school. And so we sat and we started workshopping and I kept that as a reminder on my whiteboard of that conversation, right? Pana says, dad, I think kindness. Chi Chi said, respect. And the mom said, you know, just being a good, gentle human being, right? And I put it up there and I said, let's practice that. Let's go out and do that because no one is gonna have a day added to their life by being nasty to another person. No one, right? And so you can be nasty to me, you can be, I mean, some of my friends, I mean, I've got a very, very good brother friend of mine, shout out to Jason, if he's listening. We went out to get a burger. And, and so I was, I was just, you know, working on deadlines. I took my laptop with me and I was working in the car. He went out, got the burgers, was like, okay, bro, we're gonna eat. Jason doesn't look like me. Jason is white. And I love him is such such such a beautiful brother of mine and so he gets he gets and I'm working away so when he gets back to the car he opens the door he puts the tray with the food on his seat and then he just stands out and I could hear his breathing a change he was huffing and I'm like oh dude are you okay and there's like no I'm not okay did you look outside your window and I'm like no so I looked outside my window there was a lady white,  was looking at me clutching a bag as if I was just going to jump out of the car and tackle it and get the bag. And Jason saw this. I never saw it. Jason had what I call this righteous anger. And he's like, bro, I'm so pissed. I'm like, and he's like, bro, I'm so sorry that like this has to happen. Like, how? Like, does she even know who you are and the kind of things that you're doing in the world. I'm like, dude, dude, dude, dude. No, no, no, no, no. It's not about that. Like, just think about other people, right? And how they turn out, right? And so the point being, if Jason hadn't just had this good upbringing and solid upbringing and values and, you know, treat people the way you want to be treated, you would not have seen that. You'd be like, oh, yeah, that's normal, right? But the fact that he took time to raise it with me, like, dude, I'm so sorry. I'm so angry. I did not even notice, right? And so I speak about it in terms of just the foundation and the upbringing that's so, so important. He was raised here in Canada, I was raised in Zimbabwe, but guess what? By the common values and respect and decency and how we treat people, here we are, right? Working together and living together and sharing so many, you know, life stories and life journeys together. Our kids know each other, our kids hang out together, right? And so for me, that's the underlying thing about foundation and teaching children and how to regulate themselves and teaching them how to be good human beings because ultimately they then become the leaders of tomorrow. They then become the leaders that then model and not call other people garbage, that they model and not call other people other names, right, and just say, hey, I know we disagree on this political point or we disagree on this perspective, but you're all still decent human beings. 

00:59:51    Alyssa

I imagine that world, I love it. I love imagining that world with you and I'm so grateful. 

00:59:57    Dr. PMak

Yeah, I love it, yeah. 

00:59:58    Alyssa

I'm so grateful that we get to work together in this world to try and shift it and instill these values. Patrick, I'm jazzed for your second children's book to come out. Can you please let folks know what the title of the second book is and where it can be found and when that pub date is? 

01:00:19    Dr. PMak

So thanks. Yeah, the pub date, the title of the book is going to be Hu-Ubuntu: I Am Because We Are, and Hu-Ubuntu is spelled H -U -U -B -U -N -T -U, I Am Because We Are. It's going to be out mid -January, around maybe for January 15, January 16. It's going to be available on Amazon.com, on Indigo, Barnes & Noble, Books A Million, Walmart Online. And I'm excited, Alyssa, to, you know, when you talk about imagining living in such a world, That's my story too. Every single day that I, can I be a bad neighbor? I can't be a bad neighbor. Can I be a nasty person? It is within my capacity to be a nasty person. And then what? Right? And so every single day I'm very, very conscious. And as I drive my kids to school, I always talk to them. I say, hey, look for an opportunity to be nice to someone today. Look for an opportunity to be kind, look for, right, so that they too also imagine and not just imagine but practice it, right, because who by being, you know, vengeful and angry and nasty to others will add a single day to their lives. Like I told you about my favorite book, speaks about, you know, good comes out of a person that has a good heart, right, so good treasure that will bring forth what is good. And evil comes out of the heart too. An evil person will always spew out evil behavior and have an evil character. And so again, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth will speak. And so I try to model having good things in my heart and not only just imagine it, but taking a step further and living it, right? Despite the nasty things, the weather, it's racism, it's all of that. You're like, eh, okay, you've chosen to take that path. Well, fine. Does it mean it's gonna be harder for me to access certain resources? Yeah, it's gonna be harder, but I'm on this path. It's not a short sprint, it's a marathon. So you go your way, I'll continue slaving it out and doing the things that I need to do. 

01:02:21    Alyssa

I'm in awe of you and I'm grateful for you. And I hope that we can create a world where there aren't as many obstacles for your kids navigating that journey too. Patrick, thank you. Thank you for your time, thank you for your work. Thank you for your dedication to humanity. And we will link your books, all of them in the blog and in the show notes for folks for easy access. If you're tuning in on the go, they'll be available for you at voicesofyourvillage .com. So you can have all those links. Patrick, all my love to you. 

01:02:54    Dr. PMak

Oh, much love to you, my friend. Thank you so much. 

01:02:57    Alyssa

Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown. 

01:03:01    

[Music]

01:03:07    Alyssa

Hey. 

01:03:08    Rachel

Hey. 

01:03:10    Alyssa

Hey. 

01:03:11    Rachel

So I have a funny story. 

01:03:13    Alyssa

Yeah, let's hear it. 

01:03:15    Rachel

So Abel's kindergarten teacher is one of my besties, and she was over for Nora's birthday party the other day. And she was like, hey, I gotta talk to you about something that happened today. She's like, I didn't talk to Abel about it, but I thought I'd let you know. I'm like, oh, okay. So it was show -and -tell day and one of Abel's classmates that I'm gonna call Alex brought this little like cardinal foam toy so Alex had left it on his table and then when it was show -and -tell time Alex started crying he couldn't find his cardinal so Jenny's like alright everybody like spread out look for Alex's cardinal. So they're all looking while Jenny's kind of like doing admin tasks around the classroom and they're not coming up with it. So Jenny's like, all right, I'll help you guys. I'm really good at finding stuff. So Jenny starts looking and Abel starts following Jenny around. And he's like, um, you know, if someone might've put Alex's cardinal in my backpack, like that would be super weird. And she's like, Rach, at first I just like ignored it because Abel's never done anything like that before. So I was just like, yeah, that would be weird. And kept looking. She's like, but he wouldn't stop following me around. And he just kept being like, yeah, like, I don't know if Alex's cardinal was in my bag. Like, I don't know how that would have happened. And she's like, eventually, I was just like, Abel, should I look in your backpack? And he was like, I mean, that would be like the weirdest thing ever. But if it was in there. I mean, I don't know. So obviously, Alex's Cardinal was in Abel's backpack. 

01:05:04    Alyssa

He's like, I made a terrible mistake. And I don't know where to go from here. 

01:05:08    Rachel

Thats exactly it. She's like, he wanted to come clean, but he was so afraid of taking responsibility. So he was trying to figure out a way to like, low key confess. 

01:05:18    Alyssa

It's so good. 

01:05:20    Rachel

So good. So 

01:05:22    Alyssa

it would be super weird if that happened. 

01:05:26    Rachel

And like, he's been having a problem lately. Um, like I'm implementing chapter six from our new book, like you wouldn't believe it. We, Cody and I have been calling him dishonest Abe. And Nora never really went through like, you know, she would lie occasionally, but it was like, she would immediately come clean. Like, Abel will double down. Like Cody's like, hey, buddy, did you brush your teeth for school? And Abel's like, yeah. And Cody looks at his teeth and he's like, are you sure? Because they don't look that clean. And Abel's like, yeah, I brushed them. Cody's like, so your toothbrush will be wet? And he's like, no, because I dried it. 

01:06:06    Alyssa

Immediate. 

01:06:07    Rachel

Immediate. And I'm like, okay. 

01:06:08    Alyssa

That was me growing up. That was me. 

01:06:10    Rachel

Your cognitive development is on point. However, we need to take a look at the old morals there, buddy. 

01:06:17    Alyssa

And I would just like double down forever. 

01:06:20    Rachel

Oh no, when I tried to talk to him about Alex's Cardinal the next day. I was like, hey buddy, I have to talk to you about Alex's Cardinal. He was like, I don't know how it got my backpack. I'm like, I know that you put it in your backpack and it doesn't change how much I love you and you're not in trouble. And then he was just like, yeah, I just really wanted it. And so then we had this whole conversation about like it's normal to see things that your friends have and really want them. Like I'm a grownup and that happens, but I don't take my friend's stuff. I might ask them where they got it and try to save up money and go buy it myself. And so we're like, I'm like, what do you think might happen the next time you see something in class that you really want? He's like, mom, I don't know. I'm like, okay, why don't you ask Miss Jenny to take a picture of it and send it to me, and then you and I can make a plan for you saving up, and we can try to buy it for you if this happens again. 

01:07:25    Alyssa

He's like, you know what's faster? Swiping that thing. 

01:07:28    Rachel

Legit. He was like, um... 

01:07:31    Alyssa

He's like, that sounds like a lot of work. 

01:07:37    Rachel

Oh, man. So all that to say, we're just in it right now, trying to help him learn how to navigate it. And also, I am trying to remind myself of my long -term goal here, which is for him to feel safe to tell me the truth, because right now it's a cardinal. And when he's older, it's going to be a lot bigger than that. 

01:07:59    Alyssa

Sure, sure. 

01:08:01    Rachel

But man, in the moment, it's really tough. 

01:08:07    Alyssa

Oh, it's so good. It's so good because I like so really already with my two kids, I'm like, I know Beans. Did I tell you this story of like, we had the bag of Swedish fish and Sagey wanted to have one. And I was like, you can have one. And I like handed him his fish. And he was like, no, I want to pick it myself. I want to pick the one I want. Oh, just like and I was like, OK, you want to choose the one that you want? And he was like, yeah, I was like, great. And you can look in the bag. It's all the same Swedish fish. But I'm like, you can look in the bag and pick the one you want. And he was like, I want to do it in the other room by myself. And I was like, sure. And he walked away and he came back and he handed me the bag. And I was like, did you take one fish? And he was like, yeah. Like offended that I would insinuate he would do something else. And I looked at Zach and I was like, you know we won't be able to do that with her, right? That like, she would come back and hand us the bag. She'd be smart enough to leave some in there, but she'd hand us the bag and just be like, I don't have it, so I'm just trying to chew this one. Yeah, I only have one. With like a mouthful of Swedish fish. Or she'd like stash them in places to be able to revisit later as snacks. And I'd be like, did you only take one? She'd be like, yeah, totally, yeah. Like I fully already see that in their personalities. And it stinks because I lied a lot as a kid.  And so I'm like, 10 out of 10 can relate. I just feel like I'm bracing myself because I'm like, God, I know what I did. And I don't want to project me onto you. And also I'm terrified. I barely made it out alive of some situations where I look back and I'm like, Luck, man. That was luck. And I don't want her relying on luck. 

01:10:13    Rachel

Totally. 

01:10:14    Alyssa

And she might be at some point. 

01:10:17    Rachel

Yeah, I mean, Nora is like compulsively honest. 

01:10:23    Alyssa

Same with Sage. Yeah, he's offended at the idea that he would not be honest. 

01:10:29    Rachel

Yeah, and Abel definitely is not. 

01:10:36    Alyssa

Compulsively dishonest. 

01:10:36    Rachel

Like literally, it's now like, I don't say it in front of him, but I don't want to like, 

01:10:43    Alyssa

Yeah, yeah, perpetuate the 

01:10:45    Rachel

Make it part of his identity. But like, it's not like a thing. Or like, for instance, Nora's, Nora got this really cool fidget spinner for her birthday, and then it was missing. It wasn't Abel spoiler. 

01:11:00    Alyssa

It would be so weird if it was in my backpack. 

01:11:02    Rachel

When I texted my friends to be like, I'm not accusing your kids, but I'm just trying to like, get information about this. I had to say I've already interrogated Dishonest Abe. And like, it's just like, ongoing joke that he's like, low key a pathological liar. But anyway, 

01:11:22    Alyssa

And he pilfers. Which is a real hot combo. I stole a Fun Dip in the cafeteria in college, which also was so on brand for me, and then realized like, oh, that was easy, and was like, ooh, I have like no money left on my food card. And I very much was in a household where like my parents didn't pay for anything, right? So my college I paid for my food, my rent, my anything. And I worked a couple jobs through college and stuff like that. But I remember being like, oh, I don't have money in my food card. And being like, if I could steal Fun Dip, I can probably also steal chicken tenders, right? Like, and just realizing like, oh, I could. And I've never stolen for like pleasure. I've always stolen for like yeah I'm gonna eat food today or whatever I mean I guess the Fun Dips for pleasure but it has never been like the high of like I'm stealing this thing and I don't even like need it want it will use it it's almost always been food for me yeah like maybe comes back to just like systems

01:12:36    Alyssa

Yeah it doesn’t sound like a you problem,  sounds like you were hungry and poor so I think it's a little different than the cardinal, but... Also, KMM, I'm sorry on the editing side that I just fell into my microphone. 

01:12:55    Rachel

Okay, but this actually segues, I think, actually into this episode with Patrick. 

01:13:01    Alyssa

We're chattin' about Patrick. I love him. I met him at the World Forum for Early Childhood education, I presented there, I was first trimester at Beans, so 2023, and it was in Panama. And I met him there and just like, he's a human who, you know, those people where when you're talking to them, you feel like they're not distracted by anything. And they're just so present to you and listening. And it makes you feel so whole. I don't think I'm one of those people that does that for other people. But he does that. I met him and was like, I feel good being around you. Then I met him. We were both experts for UNESCO, for the UN Education Conference there. Yeah, I didn't know he was going to be there. He didn't know I was going to be there. There were only, I think nine experts globally chosen and so it was just like so fun that it was he like came up he was like oh my gosh Alyssa and I was like hey as he started chatting about his work more I was like I gotta have you on the podcast like I wanna talk more with you about this so I'm so glad that we get to bring him to the pod. 

01:14:20    Rachel

Yeah this was such a good episode and one thing that really stood out to me and hit me and connects to what we were just talking about is the cultural sense of community that is missing in our culture, where, for instance, we have college students who are not able to have consistent access to nourishing food. 

01:14:50    Alyssa

And who are tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt because they got a college degree. 

01:14:58    Rachel

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. But even then thinking about like Abel in his classroom, like taking that toy in a different culture where a sense of community is more embedded in everyday life, that probably wouldn't happen. 

01:15:15    Alyssa

Totally. And not because of fear of punishment, which is what we have here. 

01:15:20    Rachel

No, but because like - 

01:15:21    Alyssa

Here, it's like fear of punishment or rewards. You get to feel good because you donated to this or you volunteered your time. And so you feel good about it rather than like, yeah, this is what it's like to be a part of a community. 

01:15:34    Rachel

Right. Where like what's yours is yours, but it's also mine and what's mine is yours. there's this back and forth that is missing in our culture. 

01:15:46    Alyssa

100%, yeah. Yeah, absolutely agree. And it's so interesting because I don't know if it's, I feel like capitalism gets blamed for everything. And so I don't know if that's just the narrative or if that's true. But when I think about where I grew up, I grew up in a low income, small, rural, really conservative town, farm town. We were an hour and a half, two hours from like a real city. Buffalo was our closest. And there was such rad community where I grew up, where people really took care of each other and leaned on each other. And there wasn't regulated childcare because, you know, like my mom watched some people's kids and this person watches some people's kids and Ms. Burrows watches some people's kids and stays home with their kids and whatever. And it was just like, everybody pitches in to take care of everybody else. And growing up when we had like a lot of snow or snow days, we weren't allowed to go sledding or play with our friends until we had cleared the neighbor's driveways that were like elderly around us. And it wasn't even like, I don't remember being like, ughh, I have to go do this. It was just like, yeah, duh, of course, because they need to be able to function and get out and they shouldn't be shoveling. It was very much a part of the culture that I grew up with. And it's interesting because now I live in a progressive liberal small city where I feel like a lot of the time is in liberal politics. There's this like discussion around community and everybody takes care of each other and health care should be available and education and all these foundations that are true to my value system, but that were not great at taking care of each other as neighbors or as a very local community. And there's this, everybody should have this thing, but I don't know if my neighbor next door is doing okay. And that's just been my lived experience of these two different cultural settings that I've lived in. And I really miss the community aspect of where I grew up. 

01:18:18    Rachel

Yeah, one thing that came up for me or caught my attention during your conversation too is the idea of white saviorism where white folks will go into a community and act like it needs saving and it's so gross and also they're not able to see how much value these communities have that are missing from our culture. 

01:18:48    Alyssa

Yeah, instead of like, here's our culture that we're gonna push on to you, maybe step back and say like, what can I learn from this culture? 

01:18:55    Rachel

Correct. Yeah, also I think we're so used to living in a culture where there is that missing community that it's like, you almost forget what you're missing until you hear people like Patrick talking about what it can be like and how wonderful it can be to live that way. And like, it's not like that. 

01:19:24    Alyssa

Also as a white person living in America, I feel like there is a lot of reference to other white cultures on what we can learn, like what we can learn from the Netherlands or what we can learn from Sweden, or what we can learn from France, or whatever. And it's not like, yeah, here's what we can learn from African nations. It's always like, here's what we can learn from these white European countries. 

01:19:48    Rachel

100%. Yeah. 

01:19:51    Alyssa

Yeah. I long for the community piece. And I'm like, even last week, one of my best friends reached out and was like, hey, this person at work is having a hard time with a thing with their kid. Do you have any resources you could point me to, whatever? And I was like, yeah, can I just meet them and jump on a call and chat more or whatever? And she was like, oh, I don't want to burden you. I know you're so busy. And I was like, there's a person in our community who's having a hard time. And I might have some knowledge that could be helpful for them and their child. I don't want to live in a culture where I'm too busy to jump on a call with them. I don't want that. And yeah, and then like after the call, I got like the nicest email from that. And I'm like, it shouldn't be like this. 

01:20:43    Rachel

Yeah, that drive to be productive, to achieve, to accomplish prevents us from creating space to be in community with each other. 

01:20:54    Alyssa

Exactly. Just the other day I was going to the grocery store and my neighbor is a stay -at -home parent, has four kids, and it feels like we're in the season where one of them's always sick right now. So I was just like, hey, runnin' to the store, do you need anything? She was like, no, all good. But just those check -ins of... Kylie, she was coming into the office the other day and texted Dana and I and was like, hey, I'm going to be in soon, but I'm stopping at the store, does anyone need anything? I was like, actually, yes, some boneless, skinless chicken breast, please. I had it on my, I forgot to get it in my grocery order and I have to go to the store and get it later for dinner. Like, yeah, thank you. Like that just saved me 25 minutes. 

01:21:35    Rachel

Yeah. And part of it too, is being willing to accept it when people are, because I feel like they're - 

01:21:40    Alyssa

I felt really weird being like, yeah, can you get me boneless, skinless chicken breast? 

01:21:45    Rachel

Yeah. Well, there's this idea I think we're taught, especially as girls from a young age, of like, don't be a burden to somebody else, right? Yeah. Like serve others and don't be a burden. 

01:21:55    Alyssa

A hundred percent. 

01:21:56    Rachel

And, in order to serve others, there has to be somebody who's willing to receive that. 

01:22:01    Alyssa

Be a burden. 

01:22:02    Rachel

Right? Yeah. And you know, this is something, the group of friends that I've made through Nora's school, they live in community like this. They just do things for each other and do life together. And it was so hard for me when I first started hanging out with these people to like let them do things for me. Like I was just like, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. And like, no, we need that, you know? 

01:22:32    Alyssa

A hundred percent, yeah. We just need to do life together. Yeah. Yeah, Francesca, I'll find it and we can post it on Instagram and stories. It's hanging in my house. has this like print that was hanging in her house that I fell in love with that is now framed in my house. And it is basically this of like, I want the house where you're bringing this bread over and I have extra whatever, and we're gonna hang out and the kids are running around and just the doing of life together is so dreamy to me. And it means being inconvenienced sometimes, right? Like that's the part that we have to accept is that, I remember when you were like really early postpartum days with Abel and we talked every day. And at one point you saying like, I don't want to burden you with this and me being like, oh, you're legit not a burden. Like you can call me or text me as many times as you need to at any hour of the day, you're not gonna get to the point where you're too much for me to handle. But genuinely feeling that, right? Of like, no, you're experiencing postpartum depression. And like, there isn't a, it's not like, nope, you gotta pay this invoice for us to keep chatting. Like, no. 

01:24:02    Rachel

Right, and I think like, that's the key there. We have to A, be willing to be inconvenienced and B, be vulnerable enough to maybe inconvenience others in order to live in true community. Because if you think about your nuclear family who you live in community with, you are inconveniencing and being inconvenienced all the time. Nobody decides to start a family thinking it's gonna be convenient. It's the same with having an extended community. That's part of the whole deal. 

01:24:32    Alyssa

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I think like knowing what's in your wheelhouse and what isn't, right? Like I, when we moved into the house we're in right now with the neighbor we have, I was like, listen, I am never going to make you a homemade banana bread and drop it off. I will, however, hang out with your kids in the backyard while you cook dinner, right? Like these are things I'm bringing to the table and for the record, I'm never making myself a homemade banana bread either, right? Like this is not what I bring. I'm not going to be in a postpartum meal train or any meal train. I am the one that sends you takeout or gives you a gift card because I would eat grilled cheese and tomato soup every night if only that was sufficient nutrition for my body and the humans around me. I don't care about food. Knowing what is it that you bring to the table here? What is it that you, as you naturally show up. And I've had to like, just get honest with myself because there was a lot of guilt early on of like, oh, Francesca would like bring meals, right? And like drop off meals. She loves to cook and she would just cook extra whatever she was cooking and that fills her cup. And I would be like, God, I'm never doing that, right? And like, I feel like I should, or I'm supposed to go make a meal and drop it off. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not. That's not what I'm doing here, but if you want to come have a sleepover and we can parent your kids alongside you, like, come on over. I'll do homemade make your own pizzas with the kids and a craft and set up movie night for the kids. Like I will just do, but I will not make you a freezer meal. And I had a lot of guilt around like, oh, I'm supposed to show up that way or I'm supposed to do those things and had to really like sit with my own stuff of like, Yeah, that's not how you're going to show up or if you're waiting to show up until you have the capacity or desire to make a freezer meal, yeah, you're not going to be in community with others. 

01:26:41    Rachel

Correct. 

01:26:42    Alyssa

But if you are just going to show up with what's accessible for you, then you can be in community with others. 

01:26:48    Rachel

Yeah. 100%. 

01:26:50    Alyssa

I love you. 

01:26:51    Rachel

Love you. 

01:26:52    Alyssa

I want to be in your community. 

01:26:53    Rachel

I want you to. 

01:26:56    Alyssa

Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.

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