More Than a Diagnosis: Finding the Magic in Neurodivergence, with Lake Bell

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I get to share a truly special conversation with someone I admire deeply. Lake Bell, you might know her as an actor, director, and creator, but in this episode, we connect as two parents navigating the beautiful, messy work of raising humans, especially kids who don't always fit the mold lake.

[00:00:23] And I dive into what it looks like to parent neurodivergent kids with curiosity and compassion. We talk about the emotional rollercoaster of receiving a diagnosis, the grief and the gifts, and how we can shift from focusing on what's wrong to really seeing what's wonderfully different. It's raw, it's real.

[00:00:43] It's one of those conversations that reminds me of why we do this work, why connection matters more than perfection, and why embracing the whole child just as they are, changes everything. Lake has a children's book out called All About Brains. That is so good. It's one of my favorite children's books we've added to the bookshelf.

[00:01:05] I love how she illustrates what it looks like to empower kids, to know how their brains and bodies work, and to be able to own it and communicate about it. It is beautiful. All right, village, let's dive in.

[00:01:25] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:01:42] Let's dive in together.

[00:01:48] I'm super stoked. Your book came across my feet a couple times and somebody sent it to me and was like, this is up your alley. And I'm so jazz to get to chat with you about it. Yeah, 

[00:01:58] Lake: I, I, listen, I feel like, you know, as a parent of two, my son is eight and so I'm not really sure what his cocktail of, of learning differences are yet.

[00:02:10] Um, however, Nova definitely. Sort of drove the path. Yeah. 

[00:02:16] And 

[00:02:16] forward to kind of the education that I and my ex-husband really got in this kind of. Parenting journey. And I think that, you know, if I had a book or a resource in this vein where it's peer-to-peer conversations and it's kids talking to kids, but without the kind of saccharin silliness kind of hiding up behind it.

[00:02:40] And, and there's definitely, there are, are books, but I, I felt like not everybody has like one thing, you know, totally will have their cocktail. 

[00:02:51] Alyssa: I love it as a cocktail and I am so jazzed with the like sparkles piece of the book and her description of that. It's so rad. How old are Nova and Ozzy now? 

[00:03:03] Lake: So Nova's 10 and Ozzy just turned eight.

[00:03:07] And so yeah, they're, they're two years apart. We did, we did that, which a lot of people, we did that. Right. When you're like, you know, getting outta diapers, we better, you know, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. It's so 

[00:03:19] Alyssa: legit. My kids are two years and nine months apart, so we got to, like, Sage had just turned two and I'm like, all right, I could do this again.

[00:03:28] And getting pregnant for Sage was a journey and so I didn't anticipate like it would just happen. And then it happened, just happened with Mila and uh, we just like thrust back into like. The early years and the naps and the diaper bag. Like 

[00:03:45] Lake: the sleeping alone, the, the Yes. Schedule situa like whoa. Wow.

[00:03:51] That's, it's so real. Not something I ever wanna 

[00:03:53] Alyssa: do again. No, no. It's so real. And I, the first time that we left the house with Mila, my husband and I, we like, took her to, we had home births and so the first time we left was ah, cheers. Um, but so the first time we left was for her first pediatrician appointment.

[00:04:09] Yeah. And we left and we like forgot the diaper bag and we were like, we are so like out of the practice of having a tiny baby. So yeah, I 

[00:04:20] Lake: think that what I love about the whole sort of maternal system though is that your body kind of goes on autopilot in a way that is just so impressive and obviously.

[00:04:33] Both the having home births, it's like there's nothing more kind of clear in your mind that you don't need a lot of stuff. We ran into pretty legitimate complications with Ozzy and then he was transferred to the nicu. But I will say that the, you know, I think in general, anybody's birth plan and how they feel that they wanna bring their little people into the world is a hundred percent their choice.

[00:05:04] Um, and all of them, all of the choices, even if you have a scheduled C-section or something, is gonna have a wild story, you know? So there's no kind of way around it. So I guess if your body's gonna go through those things, it's gonna, yeah, you're gonna have a good sort of extraordinary and hopefully very, very happy war story.

[00:05:24] Alyssa: War story is so real. Yeah. 

[00:05:26] Lake: Yeah. No, me that like, we got through it, you know, I, we persevere, we got 

[00:05:32] Alyssa: through it is so real. Like I'm on the other side. I, at one point in labor with Mila was like, all right, I wanna tap out. And my midwife was like, oh, you, that's not a, we can't, yeah. Can you jump in for Aade?

[00:05:46] Somebody else could do somebody else. Take the next contraction, please. 

[00:05:50] Lake: I, I had a moment where I was like, you know, my midwife sort of said, look, there's gonna be a moment where you're gonna say I can't do this. Correct. And that, and I was like, okay, well I don't think I'm gonna wanna say that those words, because that I'm very sort of mi my mind will take over.

[00:06:09] And if I say I can't do that, you know, I, I don't think I can say it. And she's like, you're gonna hit that moment. And I was like, uh, okay. And so, you know. We got to that moment. Mm-hmm. You know, that moment and Sure do. I, I had the words in my mouth that were ready to come out, but I knew I didn't want to say it.

[00:06:34] So I looked at her and I locked eyes and I was like, how can I do this? Oh my God, I love it. Because I could, I didn't wanna say I can't, but how, how do I do it? And she was like, the only way is through. And I was like, good God. 

[00:06:56] Alyssa: Honestly, like, like that was my, like a birthing mantra for myself, for Sie. And then it carried through for me.

[00:07:03] It's been my mantra through parent life. The only way out of it is through it, man. Like the tantrum in the grocery store, the like hard moments. Yep. I'm like the only way out of it is through it. 

[00:07:14] Lake: It's good for life in general too because it's, you know, you have a lot of hard things that we all come up against, you know, and that you don't wanna do.

[00:07:23] And Yes. For parenting too. I'm like, look, I know you don't want to go to school this morning. Yeah. You know? And it's like you are gonna go. Mm-hmm. And it's okay to not want to, and it's okay you, I'm like, let's talk about it. We're, as we walk to school, as we're 

[00:07:42] Alyssa: on our way to school, you can 

[00:07:43] Lake: tell me 

[00:07:43] Alyssa: all about how you don't 

[00:07:44] Lake: wanna go.

[00:07:45] Alyssa: Yeah. A hundred percent. Well, I am, I wanna hear more about like your journey to like finding out how Nova's brain and body work. I mean, I did research in building emotional intelligence in kids and we talk a lot about the nervous system. We talk a lot about the nine sensory systems and how all of us are different.

[00:08:03] And that, I actually think that in. Five to 10 years, we're gonna live in a world where we're not gonna be talking about neurotypical and neurodivergent, and we're just gonna talk about how we are all on the spectrum of neurodivergence and that yeah, all of us have unique brains and bodies, and I think that a lot of us come into parenthood and it's not a part that we consider, right?

[00:08:29] The like, oh, how does this child's brain and body work? How do they take in the world and operate? So I'm curious to hear like, what led you down this path to exploring more about it? Were you seeing seizures and that was kind of the trigger for it? Or what, what led you down that path? 

[00:08:47] Lake: I mean, we did rye parenting, so, yep.

[00:08:51] Yeah. So we were already within the language of how do we honor this little person's emotional and social development and confidence from a, uh, vantage point of. Let me empower you with the really difficult task of believing that you can do it. You know? 

[00:09:14] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:15] Lake: And so that was a starting place that both Scott and I were so aligned on.

[00:09:20] Um, and it was really kind of an education from, for us as well. And it's nice to have a template 'cause we were just like, I don't know how to do this. Sure. Um, you know, and so it, it just philosophically made a lot of sense. So, but that does a lot of honoring of the brain development, which mm-hmm. Instead of kind of pushing things in front of kids' faces to say, here, look at this, look at this, look at this.

[00:09:46] Instead of like, feeling I'm upset right now, you know, I'm gonna cry. And the crying is to do with something that's going on and that makes sense. And this is the only language you have these words of, ah, you know? Yeah. Totally. So all of that felt really logical. And so when there was. Nova around one and a half had her first febrile seizure, which that was a grand mal seizure.

[00:10:12] And, and we then sort of started to, we didn't go down our like neurological kind of journey yet because we thought, oh, we were told that, oh, you know, don't worry, she'll grow out of it. She'll grow out of it around six. And then at five she had her first seizure without a fever, which put us to, she has epilepsy definitively, and here we go.

[00:10:38] So we learned from that point, um, so much about kind of how she, how her brain was functioning. And then in extension, she had always been someone who was like, no matter what you give her, there was like this sense of. It felt like anxiety, it felt mm-hmm. Yeah. So it felt like something else was afoot and we didn't know.

[00:11:07] So when she was diagnosed with epilepsy, and then epilepsy is difficult for so many people, but then also it has this element of surprise. And so you don't know when you're going to get zapped, you know? And so for a kid that already has a propensity to this kind of like height and sensitivity and anxiety, it really added this sense of like dysregulation, you know, totally to her whole experience.

[00:11:37] And so, and to our experience. But really, like she couldn't, even if she wanted to self-regulate, she would just, what if she then would have a stutter seizure and, and her thought process completely had to stop and adjust and, you know. Does that mean a big one's coming if the little ones are clustered alge, you know, and so I think that I give her so much credit for just any kid who's gotta deal with something that makes you feel other or different or is in the way of your sort of new and fresh growth of thought and um, expression and all the things that you're allowed to do, you know?

[00:12:19] Um, and so yeah, neurodiversity, I'm dyslexic myself and I remember being put in classes. Um, totally. Nova is dyslexic too, so that's why I reference it. But. I remember being put in classes, like the slow reading class and like, you know, I was at a very rigorous academic school and I was a slow reader. I'm still, to this day am I'm actually now a, a pretty fast reader based on simply muscle training, you know?

[00:12:47] Mm-hmm. Good enough. But, but I was like, not until recently, to be honest, and the way that I read is that I'm going to picture every single fucking thing, you know? So a hundred percent. Yeah. So, and, and I knew that that's just unique to kind of my experience. 'cause my mom was like reading War and Peace in an afternoon and I was like, what are you doing that I'm not, you know, how does that operate?

[00:13:09] Alyssa: Yeah. I'm also, I'm a slow reader. I'm not dyslexic, but I'm a slow reader and I've like really found audio to be my main source. Oh yeah. That's great. Of consumption or like it. Sits in more. I, can I ask some questions about Nova? 

[00:13:22] Lake: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. 

[00:13:23] Alyssa: Great. Is she a human who like really reads the energy of the room where she like comes in and she's like, oh, uh, really kind of susceptible to, or notices that there's an energy shift or another kid's crying, or another person's having a hard emotion and is like an energy reader, if you will.

[00:13:40] Lake: Yeah. So she's totally an empath. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She, she, she is 100%. Her emotional intelligence has always been like mm-hmm. She's so aware. Yeah. Yeah. And if someone else is hurting, yes, she immediately, you know, and I, I have that with her in our relationship too, where I can say like. Let's pause for a second because this person is struggling and so I, for I definitely like support it as well.

[00:14:09] Yeah. Um, it's a superpower of hers and I am so grateful that she has that because she can be quite, oh, you know, ugh, everything's falling apart. What my li my, my feelings, my, you know, somatically I'm having problems. You know, there's a lot going on for her. Yeah. And she's kind of Right. Totally. It's interesting 

[00:14:30] Alyssa: when we are looking at this, so, um, with that it's a, that's our neuro perceptive sense.

[00:14:35] We have nine senses. Our neuro perceptive sense is the one that like reads the energy in the room and reads the space. Right. And it keeps us safe. And there are some humans who are more neuro receptive, sensitive, where they, my son's like this. He really reads the energy in the space. My daughter will like notice it and can go back to doing what she's doing.

[00:14:52] Like it just doesn't, she's not as neuro receptive. Sensitive. Right. It doesn't like sit with her in the way that it does with my son. And what I have noticed in our work, my next book, big Kids, bigger Feelings, we dive into the like five to 12-year-old range. And so in doing this, we were reading so much research in, in writing the book and yeah, obviously inclusion and belonging become really important in this age range.

[00:15:19] And so when we're seeing the, like our neuro perceptive sensitive humans also pair that with, they now really want to feel included in like they belong and then add in. And we have a whole chapter on this of like diagnoses and the marriage of these three things can be a really hard cocktail for elementary school.

[00:15:40] Like you're aware of what people might perceive of you or how people might perceive you. You are now navigating a diagnosis and you just wanna feel connected to the world. Yeah. And navigating that can be such a doozy. And that's where like. Your book jumped out at me. Like she has such a beautiful self-confidence in who she is.

[00:16:08] Yeah. And I think what's so key in that is that it's clear that you have not shied away from conversations with her where you've talked to her about how her brain and body work. 

[00:16:20] Lake: Yeah. I thank you for that. I appreciate it. And also, I'm really excited about your book, but the, I just wanna be really clear, because if the, if parents who do have kids who are, um, neurodiverse and you're like, oh my God, like maybe we shouldn't talk about it.

[00:16:36] You know, let's just let them thrive. Like we had all, we had all the conversations, you know, and let's just. Like, not talk about it so much because I think that it's making her think, oh, I'm different. I'm weird, and whatever. And so we had that. We tried that. Yeah. Um, and because we didn't want her to feel like everyone's like, you're weird.

[00:16:58] You know? And that in, especially in a time when you're growing up and you just wanna be like, everybody's got this lunchbox and I want this lunchbox too, you know, or whatever. So I. There was a moment, and I've talked about this before, but I think it's so key to, for parents to hear because there is a moment where Nova, because we were all in the family trying to get rid of the seizures, right?

[00:17:24] Like we're trying big girl medicine, okay? It's got big girl side effects and it's scary. And it feels scary. And we're doing it because we're having 11 to 16 seizures a day and we have to figure it out. So totally there are cocktails of medicine, there's this and that and recording and you know, logging and all kinds of shit.

[00:17:45] So in this moment she could feel and read in the room that we're all for all these seizures, right? They're the enemy. So that when she had them, she looked at me once and had one, a small one, and then she looked and she went, sorry. I was like, she was like, I'm failing for having it. I was like, oh, okay, we need a massive reframe.

[00:18:15] Mm-hmm. So we have to go back to the drawing board. And I told Scott about it, my ex, and he and I were just like totally aligned that there needed to be a very serious narrative change here. So, because it's not like they're going away and they might be here forever. I mean, she's currently seizure free, so I just knocked on like 12 pieces of wood.

[00:18:35] But the point is that she has genetic mutation. Okay. So even if they're gone, it's like it's in there. Okay. It's a part of her. It's part of who she is. This is part of her tapestry of mm-hmm. Interest. Um, and so I started researching historical figures of great note that had epilepsy and that's where I Awesome.

[00:18:56] Upon Joan of Ark. And I was like, you know, you know who Joan of Ark is. She was like, um, you know, I was like, you know, in frozen the portrait, would they go, Joan, you know, and they referenced Joan. So Joan was a warrior. She was, uh, this young girl warrior who wore like heavy armor and like wielded a sword and like saved her people and like spoke up and like rode a horse, you know?

[00:19:24] And she was fierce. Anyway, she got so much done and she had epilepsy. You have something in common with her. How crazy is that? Because she's a warrior. She was like, really? Uh, you know, I got her so on board, and she was like, wow. I was like, yeah. So, and all these other really important writers and thinkers and leaders were thought to have epilepsy.

[00:19:44] And so the point is, is like you're just a little smarter than everyone. A little more, this is your superpower. Yeah. Yes. It's powerful. Yeah. It's like, like you have, you know, the flavor of electricity and, you know, she's like, like sparkles. I was like, yes. Like sparkles. You know? There's magic up there. So when you have one, please let me know because I feel like I'm in the presence of something really cool.

[00:20:11] Will you let me know when you have them? The little ones? And so thus it turned into, she would come up to me and be like, mom, I had a mini, we called the minis when they're little ones. Mm-hmm. And I was like, girl, please sparkling up in my house. You know, obsessed. You're, that's so good. Thank you. Like, so it turns it turned into this thing.

[00:20:35] And so then when she shared it, by the time she was sharing it to people and not like keeping it in the closet as it were, that she had it condition, we were, it was like fucking the height of the pandemic and it was Zoom school and Zoom share. And, you know, only so many times you could be like, this is my water bottle, you know, this is my PPE.

[00:21:03] And so, uh, the Epilepsy Foundation had this, uh, initiative where, you know, pediatrics patients could get these little, little badges of ah, cool. Of education and advocacy. And so I was like, Hey, no, you wanna go to, and um, she goes, oh. I was like, sure, if you want. You know, and so she thought about it and she said, oh, I have a share.

[00:21:26] I have a share. You know, and, and it turned into the beginning of the book where she says, I have a share. I have something called epilepsy in my brain. And every, and of course, thank God the teacher lagged back and let the real questions start from the kids who said, what's that? You know? And then she said, well, it's like I have sparkles in my brain and there's electrical connections.

[00:21:48] And she said all those things that are in the book, and, and you know, they cause me to have seizures. Well, then of course, that's another fun word. What the heck is that? You know, what's a seizure? You know, kids said, and then on and on she talked about it and she said, how? Yeah. And they said, well, that sounds kind of scary.

[00:22:05] Can you make it stop? No. Can't make it stop. It is scary sometimes, you know, real conversations. Um, the best. Yeah. And then it was like, who's next? And it was like dinosaur farting. You know, it's, 

[00:22:19] Alyssa: yes. I think this is what, when, when we let kids be kids and we can empower them with the information of how their brain and body works, they navigate it often with so much more ease than we do.

[00:22:34] Yeah. Right? That my son's sensory sensitive. And so for him, he has more sensitivities than he does what's regulating for him, right? So when he goes into a space, he can get really overwhelmed by stimuli pretty quickly and there's. Of the nine sensory systems, there's only two that are regulating for him.

[00:22:52] The rest are dysregulating and so like visual stimuli, sound, et cetera. Tactile touch, really dysregulated his nervous system. And so for him, we call this his superpower, right? That he is so good at noticing the details. He can notice a lawnmower, three houses down. He can find things in a space that we can't find.

[00:23:12] And I'll say like, SJI, I can't find the nail clippers. Have you seen them anywhere? And he can find them, right? Like he, this is his superpower is that he's a details human. And it was really sweet. He made a new friend recently. He's four, his new friend is five, and they were talking to each other and he, they were looking for something outside and his friend was like, I haven't seen it.

[00:23:34] And Sage goes, oh, I know where it is. That's my superpower. I'm a details person. And I was like, oh my God, I love it. Yeah. Right. But like that is, it can be a part of who they're without shame and secrecy when we talk about it. Yeah. And normalize it. And that all of our brains and bodies are different. 

[00:23:52] Lake: I think that people, I include myself, I think we thought, okay, you know, Nova has a DHD too.

[00:23:58] And she's like, mom, I can't do that. My A DHD, you know? And I'm like, okay, cool. I was like, I hear you. You know, and it can be like, you know, thrown at me a lot. Mm-hmm. And it's like, look, they're gonna throw a lot of stuff at you a hundred percent. And the truth is you do have a DH, adhd. And what I'm asking you, I'm not doing it in the way I'm supposed to do it, where I say, you know, let me help you out a little bit.

[00:24:22] Let me show you what to do, you know. Um, and the truth is she's totally right. The thing that I was asking her to do is totally, I do not have a DH adhd, you know, it's like I can get so much shit done and I have no problem. Like my brain is very different than hers in that way. Yeah. And so she like needs to multitask in order to hear me.

[00:24:47] Yes. And I'm like, that looks rude, a hundred percent. And she's like, I can't hear you unless I'm doodling or doing a something with a fidget. You know? Okay. Say it wasn't a DH adhd, you know, oh, my kid, you know, when I'm asking them to do something, they're doodling or they're doing a fidget. That sounds like a lot of kids, you know?

[00:25:10] So it's very relatable. It doesn't, but she does have the language to understand that when she's navigating through things, she's not feeling like a, like I felt dumb. Being in the slow Yes. Class, because every, nobody said, oh yeah, a lot of people have dyslexia. Don't worry about it. Like, here's, there's gonna be some different tools that you're gonna use to X, Y, and Z.

[00:25:33] You know, it was just, I felt stupid. And so she doesn't feel that way. She feels like, look. I'm walking down the street, I have a DH, adhd, dyslexia, and epilepsy, and I bet the guy next to me has a, a cocktail of some other things that maybe he does or doesn't know about. You know, 

[00:25:49] Alyssa: it's like Correct. Does or doesn't is so true.

[00:25:51] Yeah. So good. And I think when we can talk about it, not just with folks who have a diagnosis, but we talk, we do a lot of work with elementary schools and childcare programs. Great. And so when we're working with folks, we're coming in and, and helping teachers have these conversations with kids too, and not just with adults and not just shifting the environment and the tools available.

[00:26:11] Yeah. But also, how do we talk to kids about this? And we had a, a kindergarten teacher recently who led this incredible like circle with her kids. She's got a couple kids who have high sensory seeking needs. And so they're gonna come really close to you. They're gonna hug too hard, they're gonna go to sit next to you and they're gonna be right up on you, you know?

[00:26:33] Correct. And they need a lot of movement. They need a lot of support, and they have tools in the classroom to help them access some more support. And in talking to the kids about it, you brought them all together. And it wasn't just about those kids, it was about how all of us, all of our brains and bodies work differently.

[00:26:50] And that some of us, when our body starts to feel overwhelmed, we like to have space and we wanna be in a quiet space where nobody's talking to us and we don't see anything around us. And our brain can have a break from seeing things and hearing things. And some of us, when we feel overwhelmed, we wanna hug and we wanna move our bodies.

[00:27:07] And helping kids understand that one isn't right or wrong, we just respond to stimuli differently. And I think it's so rad when there's, there's been an uptick in conversation around how some bodies work differently. But what I wanna see shift is that. All bodies operate differently and all brains operate differently.

[00:27:28] And some kids are gonna need specific tools. Some kids go into shutdown mode, some kids go into fight mode. They don't get to choose those things. And really being able to chat with kiddos just about the nervous system in general is a dream. Like it's a dream. 

[00:27:43] Lake: It's a dream. It's my dream. And listen, I, I'm like, gosh, let me send you some of the books because I think if you're going to schools, a surprising element.

[00:27:52] I found that in reading the book out loud to classrooms. Yeah, it was, it's not like you read it and then talk. It's so we're gonna read this section and everyone, the hands are gonna go up and go. I feel that way sometimes too. And you know, I have, you know, OCDI have that, I have that, I have that. You know, and it was so interesting, like, um, being in the classroom and kids looking, going like, I have one kid go, oh, you know, I have autism.

[00:28:19] I have autism, and that's why I wear my headphones. And you're like, oh see, this is great. Thank you so much for sharing that. Like, does this feel the Elliot in the book, does that feel like something you can relate to? Or does it show up differently for you? You know? And then it was like, we got to have these conversations where so many of the kids related so much.

[00:28:41] That's it. And if you'll see, it's not like they're diagnosed, they're just like, oh, it, when someone says. They have anxiety or something. That's what that is. Mm-hmm. That's what, oh, it's like that buzzing bee thing. Okay, cool. 

[00:28:53] Alyssa: And I think it's true for us as adults too, I talk a lot about how I'm a sound sensitive human and so Me too and bless like, and I married a drummer, which like, he's incredible, but it's so hard.

[00:29:04] I'm like at like 8:00 AM when he is tapping the song that's in his head. It's fine at five 30. I like want a divorce, right When it's like dinner time and it's so persistent and he's just like tapping along at the table. I'm like, I already got two kids making enough noise here. Please don't. But when I share these things out loud, other adults are like.

[00:29:24] Oh, I don't hate my kids. I'm overstimulated by the noise, right? Like it's not that I am going nuts, it's that there's too many piles and clutter all over my house and I'm visually sensitive. And so that's clutter adds up for some folks and it's like shove it in a drawer just outta your face, even if it's not put away.

[00:29:44] And when we talk about this, more and more people just feel seen book. It's allowing kids to just feel seen and to know, like I'm not the only one. Like other people. Also, I, I see parts of myself even, even if it's not that whole representation, I see parts of myself in these characters and, uh, it, it reminds me a lot of, um, Heather Avis wrote, everyone Belongs, which is another beautiful book I think you'd enjoy.

[00:30:14] And it similarly, it's just like helping kids feel seen and it was inspired by one of her kids who has Down Syndrome and just helping kids feel seen and included and like they do belong here. 

[00:30:26] Lake: Yes. Yeah. I, I fully agree. And I, I do love that. Um, I've heard of that book actually. I, yeah. Good. Um, I, I hope that people, um, like you said.

[00:30:39] Neurotypical and Neurodiverse get to embrace the book. Really just with knowing that it's not like a sort of heady text. It's just Yeah. Very user friendly and an easy way and gateway to a real, genuine conversation, you know? 

[00:30:56] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:30:56] Lake: Where you go, oh yeah, there's someone in my class who wears headphones. I was wondering what about the, you know, oh, well we, um, there's sensitivity there, you know?

[00:31:05] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:06] Yeah. 

[00:31:06] Lake: Now you understand the why, you know a hundred percent. 

[00:31:09] Alyssa: I love it. I love 

[00:31:10] Lake: it. 

[00:31:11] Alyssa: I love it. Yeah. Just a conversation starter. Thank you for writing this book. Thanks for sharing it in the world and, and for raising Nova to be empowered to share her story with the world. 

[00:31:21] Lake: It's fun too. 'cause Yeah, she definitely, she's been seizure free for a few years, you know, a couple years now, and she's 10 now, and so, but she says it so effortlessly and without, like, it's not like she's braggadocious about it, but she.

[00:31:39] Is comfortable being Yeah. Aware that she goes, well, yeah, well I have epilepsy, so I just, you know, I can't be in the, you know, I just, if if there's like a pool or something, I just need to let people know, you know, or, you know, whatever it is. She's like, I'm seizure free, but I have epilepsy and like I have a DHD too.

[00:31:56] So 

[00:31:58] Alyssa: I love it. I love ourselves. Just like the wrap, just add in there. What else do you need to know about me? What's the scenario here? Because let me let you know what I'm gonna need. And that's what it is. It's, here's what I'm gonna need. Yeah. Here are my needs. And we have so many of us, especially females, have been raised to ignore our needs and not advocate and to just not be needy because you don't wanna be high maintenance and you're flipping the script and saying, yeah, you get to have needs.

[00:32:27] Lake: And it's hard for parents. Listen, I, yeah, I've created some, I've, I've allowed for there to be a, a discourse and a dialogue around. Our feelings and our in body and in mind. It sometimes can be taxing where you're like a hundred percent, like I know the name and am on speed dial the, the school nurse because there are so many like, uh, this and this and that.

[00:32:56] And totally because she's very sensitive. I don't know what that is, but whatever her like internal awareness. Yes. It becomes somatic, it becomes, it's interceptive, what is it? Interceptive 

[00:33:12] Alyssa: it. The interceptive sensory system. So it is, and our interceptive sensitive humans, we can start to see anxiety can become bigger for them because they're really good at noticing internal cues.

[00:33:24] Essentially. They will notice when they have to go to the bathroom when they're hungry, they can be hangry. When they're a little tired, they can be exhausted. They can notice like, oh my heart's racing. Yeah, it's beating really fast. And so they notice those internal cues often in a more heightened way than folks who are not interceptive sensitive.

[00:33:41] And so it can spiral faster where they're like, wait, I notice my heart's beating and I'm a little clammy and I'm noticing all these things Complete. Yeah. Like correct. And it starts to like add up faster. For them. My son and husband are both interceptive sensitive and anxiety can become a struggle where they can like go into a spiral and because they notice things so much more intensely and almost sooner, faster Yes.

[00:34:04] Than a lot of other humans notice them. Uh, and again, it's just superpower. And with all superpowers comes the other side of like, how do we harness that superpower so that you can notice those cues without being overwhelmed by them. 

[00:34:17] Lake: But I would be curious about also there's this sense of urgency because a lot of kids obviously we're growing up in a world that has this kind of annoying abundance of like Yeah.

[00:34:29] You know, now more this click. Mm-hmm. You know, and we try to really limit it with this A DHD anxiety brain. Sure. That we have here. Yeah. Um. We're very strict with our boundaries and we get in trouble for that with her. She sure. But I'm curious about this sense of, it feels very neurological, this idea of urgency.

[00:34:55] Like mm-hmm. Did you check it? Is it here? Did we, you know, like you get a be in your bonnet about something and you think, if I don't get it right now, or understand where the whereabouts of it, it, you know, it's like, wow, I don't, I am definitely a motivated person and I am like, I make shit happen. Okay.

[00:35:13] Yeah. And I understand like the hustle, you know, but I'm, there's a sense of, not mania, but it's just like a. Hyper fixation. Fixation. 

[00:35:25] Rachel: Yes. Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:26] Alyssa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super common. Yeah. Again, like they can, especially with an A DHD brain, and what we're looking at there is like dopamine levels. Yeah. And when we're navigating the hyper fixation piece, my son also falls into this.

[00:35:41] It will escalate. And so what we'll often do with kids is just name like, you really wanna find this. And what our goal is, is to help them get back into their body first, right? So they go immediately to like thoughts, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I have to do this, I have to do this. I have to. They go up into their head and we gotta help them go below.

[00:36:02] So we'll often, like in that panic, you go above the shoulders naturally. And we wanna help 'em go below the shoulders of like, yeah, we're absolutely, we definitely need to find that. You know, it's gonna be helpful. Can you help me find, and I'm just helping them do something in the environment. Can you go look under that couch and really lift it up and see if it's under that cushion?

[00:36:22] Because I think I saw it earlier and I'm modulating my tone. I'm gonna like help bring their nervous system down. I'm giving them some sort of like heavy work to do to move their body. And I might even create a dopaminergic activity where they're gonna get some dopamine where it's kind of like a reward system of the brain of like, you know what, let's check five spots.

[00:36:41] And then there's some sort of like, get at the end of it. Let's check these five spots. And then if that's not it, we can check those off the list. Like checking something off the list is gonna give you dopamine. Okay. And um, so then we know we've checked the living room and then we're gonna go into the dining room and here are the spots we can check in the dining room.

[00:36:58] And when they're going through this process, it actually, they're gonna come back into their body. We're gonna slow their heart down, they're gonna get the dopamine they probably need in that moment. And I'm gonna also periodically be like, wow, my heart's beating. Fast. It's hard for me to find something when my heart's being really fast.

[00:37:14] I'm just gonna drop my shoulders down, I'm gonna open up my hands. I'm gonna push my toes into the ground. Whew, okay, now I'm ready to look again. And I'm not asking them to do it. I'm just saying it out loud and doing it myself. Yeah. Sometimes I take a time out. Yeah, right. Exactly. But I'm gonna say it in front of them because that's gonna model for, feelings are contagious.

[00:37:35] Right. Our nervous systems communicate. And so when I can really set the temperature and be the thermostat instead of the thermometer where I'm gonna come in and set the temperature, her nervous system or my son's nervous system to respond off of hours and bonus, if we can say out loud what we're noticing in our bodies and how we're calming it, right.

[00:37:56] Because then they get to subconsciously take that in. 

[00:37:59] Lake: That's great. I mean, also I can see, I can even just envision that whole scene. I'm envisioning a kid that's younger. Right. Because as they get older, Nova who's 10, who identifies yeah. As like 16 years old, you know, a hundred percent is gonna give me, I call it guff.

[00:38:19] She gives me guff. So I'm like, you know, I'm seeing you're really wanting to do this, you know, and find it right now. Um, I'm just gonna take a beat. 'cause sometimes when I lose something, if I start to clean, then I find it. So I'm just gonna start cleaning. Um, will you help me? You know? Yeah. Um, exactly.

[00:38:41] There's a lot of pushback, I think at that age. A hundred percent. There's, you know, there's, um, hormones a bit coming through. Yeah. There's, you know, this sense of like, no, you don't understand, you know, a hundred percent. Like what are you even talk, you know, and, and you're just like, so that, so that is not an appropriate way to speak to me right now.

[00:39:02] Do you want me to help you? You know, it's like, correct, because I would like to help you. 

[00:39:06] Alyssa: We write about this in big kids of like, in, because it goes up to age 12. And so when we're diving into the, like, big kids side of things, one thing that we often stop doing that we do a lot when they're little and we stop doing as they get older, is talking about it outside the moment.

[00:39:20] Like, I've noticed when you have lost something or you can't find something, here's what I've noticed. Your voice gets really fast and it seems like you really need to find it right now. And what we know is that when your body's doing that, here's what's happening inside your body. I wanna give them real terms like your body's producing cortisol or adrenaline.

[00:39:41] Yeah. Which is a stress hormone and it actually turns off your brain that can problem solve and think and remember these things, right? And like having those conversations outside the moment and that like in those moments, here's what you can expect from me because I'm gonna try and help your body stop producing that cortisol or adrenaline so that we can figure this out together.

[00:40:01] Yeah. Having those conversations outside the moment though Yeah. Is something we often, you know, when they're little and we're going to the store, we're like, all right. When we go into the store, here's what to expect. Right. Like, we'll, pre I did that. Yes. And then as they get older, we often stop having the outside the moment pre-teaching conversations.

[00:40:18] Yeah. Or they decrease. And so looking at like, where are we seeing repeated, um, patterns or habits and pushback and getting curious about, well, what can we do outside the moment to preface those, to have those conversations. 

[00:40:31] Lake: Yeah. I mean, it's like in marriage or relationships too. It's like you're not gonna talk to your spouse about a really big fucking thing if you guys are in the middle of a fight.

[00:40:42] Alyssa: Correct. But, but then, but then you never wanna like disrupt the harmonious time. Right. Like, that's often what 

[00:40:48] Lake: happens. That's why you look for a benign time. 

[00:40:51] Alyssa: Yeah. But I think that's what happens with kids too, is we're like. And things feel really chill right now, and I don't wanna bring up this thing where maybe then we're gonna be in conflict or they're gonna have pushback or it's gonna be an uncomfortable conversation.

[00:41:04] Lake: I find it's when there's tenderness and connection, that's not like we're having fun. It's more like we're at the end of the day, Hey, I just wanted to talk to you about, yes. I'm curious, you know, when I have to tell you, Hey, it's time to get off the iPad. Is there something that, is there a way of wording that might be a little bit easier for you?

[00:41:26] Because it is what it is, right? Like the, the yeah. Tool is there. So how would you prefer, you know, and sometimes we talk about it there, you know, she'll be like, I just don't get one. You're like, well, you know, whatever. It's, but yeah. Um, I love that. So what if I said, do we have had a safe word it, we've tried that.

[00:41:47] Um, peacock where like, I've, I ran out of the script and I don't know what else to say. So I'm like, if you ever hear me say peacock, it means like, I don't know what to say. So I'm like, peacock. It's so 

[00:41:59] Alyssa: real peacock. It's so good. I was chatting with, uh, close friend's kid who's 10, and we'd like had a, we were hanging out for the day and this child had had a hard afternoon and then it was like dinner, like after dinner, things were winding down and I just happened to be sitting next to him and I was like, man, earlier today was a doozy, huh?

[00:42:23] And I was like, I am so curious. It seemed like. Things were chill and we were eating and you were playing and you're outside and you're moving. And I don't know if we missed something, but I'm not sure what happened. All of a sudden it seemed like you were having a hard time and everything everyone was doing seemed like the wrong thing to do.

[00:42:46] And I'm just curious for next time, like, is there something else? And he goes, you know what, Alyssa? I don't know either. And I was like, fair. I've also been in those spaces where I'm like, yeah, I'm just in a mood and I don't know. And I told him, I was like, I've had those times and moments too. Yeah. And it's okay to not know, you know?

[00:43:07] Like it's also okay to not figure it out. Yeah. And know and to just be like, man, I was in a mood and I'm sorry. And we just had like that at the end of the day where it's just the two of us sitting near each other. And it was just so sweet where he was just like, actually, I don't even know. Like, yeah, I was nuts.

[00:43:27] And I dunno why 

[00:43:29] Lake: my, my son is really good at articulating. Like, he can, like, we have a different language, um, but he can totally tantrum out. It's just, he can be set off like that and he'll just book it to his room, slam the door. And I'm like, can I come in? No. You know? And you're like, okay, so just let me know when I can, you know, and then it'll be, eventually I'll just be like watching the dishes.

[00:43:56] He'll walk down as if he, he'll just come in there like nothing happened. He's done. He's like, I'm calm now. Yeah, I did it. And I'm like. Are you good? What was, are you, do you wanna talk about it or, um, no. He'll be like, I just didn't like it that you said that da da da. Or he'll get back upset again and then go back up.

[00:44:19] But, but generally speaking it's so different than Nova. But yeah, as a parent you have to kind of like shapeshift a bit. 

[00:44:28] Alyssa: A hundred percent. I birthed two very different humans and just like their responses it watch Sage. Mila's nervous system and for us to be able to talk about how their brains and bodies work differently.

[00:44:43] And we, we talk about the four nervous system reactions in our house with animals. 'cause sage went through a phase where he was like, what does that animal do when they're scared in the wild? Whatever. Right? It's like a frog. What does it do when it's scared? It hops away. It's, it flees. Or a dog will like meet you at the door with its tail between its legs and it's like, I'm so sorry.

[00:45:01] I'm, so the fawn response and then we have freeze is the possum and then lion is fight mode. And I, my like fight mode is I'll get sarcastic and snippy and rude. I'm not a big yeller, but I will like fight back in that way. And that's one of, of my. That's one of my big nervous, no. Yeah. And sage rarely goes into fight mode.

[00:45:23] He'll often freeze or flee. Okay. And my daughter will often go into fight mode where she gets big, she's gonna scratch her face, she's gonna yell, she's gonna scream. And, and she's one right now, two. And so like, combine, but at one he never, ever, like, yeah, hit ass, kicked bit. It's, it's there. It's not how his nervous system works.

[00:45:42] And for her, it's, and he said recently he was like, mom, it's really hard to live with a lion sometimes. I was like, you know what, it's right. 

[00:45:52] Lake: Yeah. Yeah. My son is a frog. And, and, yeah. No, is definitely like a lion by way of kind of like a litigator. Like I feel like she's like an attorney where I'm like, oh, that is a good point.

[00:46:08] Oh shit. How would I say, you know?

[00:46:16] Alyssa: Oh, it's so real. It's so real. I know. Well, thank you. Thank you for doing this for this book. It's so needed in the world and I'm jazzed to share it and to be able to share it too with schools that we're working with. 

[00:46:28] Lake: Great. 

[00:46:28] Alyssa: Yeah. We'll, we'll be in touch. This is great. Thank you. Stay tuned. After this note from our sponsors.

[00:46:34] Rachel and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:46:41] So I like feel like I'm pretty good at cognitive flexibility running an online business for seven years. Like there's so many like tech hiccups that happen and whatever, and. I also have had the wild privilege of like meeting famous humans through this work. And, and for some reason this one just like, I was like shook by it.

[00:47:04] I like froze and was like, I don't know what to do, question mark. Like she eventually we got her in, but then I couldn't hear her or she couldn't hear me and it wasn't working and it wouldn't record. And I was like, my nightmare. This is, I hate this. Mm-hmm. And then ultimately was like, alright, there are other platforms.

[00:47:25] And was just like, I'm gonna send you a Zoom link. Let's go over to Zoom and record and we're gonna hope that this works. And we get to zoom and my microphone won't connect. I'm like, oh, oh my word. My God. It was so stressful. I would've just been 

[00:47:40] Rachel: dripping sweat at that point. And like on the verge of tears, honestly, probably.

[00:47:45] Alyssa: What it hits for me is, you know, the part that when Zach gives me any thoughts or feedback or whatever, and I'm like, you think you're dumb? Shut up. I'm so smart. Yes. Uh, it was that where I was like, I wanted to prove to her like, I'm not an idiot and I know how to run this company and do this podcast and whatever, whatever.

[00:48:03] And I had no ground to stand on 'cause I just felt like an idiot. 

[00:48:08] Rachel: Totally. I mean, I would feel the same way because it's just like, and it's like not grounded in reality. I mean, you've been running this podcast for years, obviously you know how to navigate a podcast platform, but like in the moment you're just like, well, I just look like the dumbest idiot on the planet.

[00:48:23] Yeah. She's like, 

[00:48:23] Alyssa: prove it. And I'm like, I can't.

[00:48:29] It 

[00:48:29] Rachel: was so 

[00:48:29] Alyssa: stressful. 

[00:48:30] Rachel: So she was so kind. And the episode has such like a warm, chill vibe, like never would've 

[00:48:37] Alyssa: known. Okay, wait, that was also on my birthday and I had had this like. Big conversation with someone in my life that I accidentally scheduled for the morning of my birthday on the drive to get a massage that I had scheduled for my birthday.

[00:48:52] And I ended up sobbing through that conversation. It was a day, man. I like sobbed for half an hour. Had a massage that I had to keep pausing to blow my nose 'cause I was still just like post crying and, and then I come home to this like interview with Lake and I also didn't have time to shower, so I'm like full oily, gross post massage.

[00:49:15] Totally. It was a scene. It was, it was a scene. 

[00:49:20] Rachel: You, I find, I find myself like very emotional on my birthday because I just have these like ideas about how the day should go and it feels like, like I put a lot of pressure on myself inadvertently. So then when things same start to go. Not perfectly, which, hello.

[00:49:35] It's real life. I feel Not 

[00:49:38] Alyssa: on your birthday. It's not 

[00:49:39] Rachel: real 

[00:49:39] Alyssa: life. That's 

[00:49:39] Rachel: right. In my life. On your birthday, it's 

[00:49:41] Alyssa: perfect life. Well, that's 

[00:49:42] Rachel: what it feels like. It should be. So then when it's not, I like, I can be on the edge of tears so quickly on my birthday. Same. Like same. Wow. 

[00:49:51] Alyssa: Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

[00:49:56] Oh yes. Okay. But yes, lake. Okay. There's the BTS of this episode, putting it together, all that jazz. Hopefully it doesn't come out in the finished product as much of an S show as it was in the process and in the making, at least for me, she was cool. Comic collected the whole time. Yeah. She was so chill. Um, she's so chill.

[00:50:17] Rachel: Yeah. I just love this episode. I love how she has shaped her family culture around this and just how open all of the communication is, and. Also that like she doesn't romanticize it. Yes. But she also, it's not, she doesn't talk about it in a way where you're like, oh, she hates her life because of this.

[00:50:46] It's like, this is hard and this is how I've been making it work for my family. This is how I'm advocating for my kid. I'm teaching my kid to advocate for herself. Mm-hmm. All of these and just like about her brain and 

[00:50:57] Alyssa: body. Yeah. Which is so cool, right? Like I wish that's how we talked to kids was about how everyone's brain and body works differently and we're gonna dive into how does your brain and body work just like that?

[00:51:11] Yeah. That it's not this big conversation that happens one time and it's that pressure of that convo, but instead everybody's brain and body works differently. Just gonna figure out how yours works. Or here are things that work for mine. 

[00:51:27] Rachel: It's so different than the like vibe that I think. Can be really prevalent of like, here's what's wrong with you, or here's what makes you outside of normal.

[00:51:37] And I mean, epilepsy is a, is a big thing to deal with, but I don't think that it's helpful for kids to frame it in the way of like, well this is what's wrong with you, so here's how we have to try to fix it. It's like, totally, here's how your body works and like, here are the supports we need to put in place for you.

[00:51:57] Alyssa: Will you put your do not disturb on from your phone? Is 

[00:51:59] Rachel: it vibrating? 

[00:52:01] Alyssa: Yep. Hang on. Thank you. Um, also, okay man, look how close I am to the screen. I noticed that 

[00:52:10] Rachel: right 

[00:52:11] Alyssa: now in my new 

[00:52:12] Rachel: setup. Awesome. I'm just gonna put it further away. Yeah. So I think that is so huge and something that I think can be pulled into so many areas of neurodivergence or even like neurodiversity of like.

[00:52:31] Just letting kids know and honestly letting adults know. Mm-hmm. Like everybody's brain and body works differently and they're not better or worse. They're just different. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And acknowledging the inconvenience of living with a diagnosis because that's very real. Totally. A hundred 

[00:52:51] Alyssa: percent.

[00:52:52] And this idea though, of othering, right? I think we're very nervous about talking about differences 'cause we're afraid to other humans. And in doing that, in avoiding talking about differences, I think it inherently others, humans. Mm-hmm. Versus sharing all the differences and sameness, likenesses, I guess that we notice.

[00:53:27] Within our community, our culture, our crew, our family, whatever it is, and that, that just shows that there isn't one right way to be and then there's these like outcast ways to be. Yeah. You know, it was something I, I toured an elementary school for Sage and was noticing this as I went into every classroom.

[00:53:56] One of the things I noticed was flex seating across the board. It wasn't like, oh, all these chairs are one way and then there's one seat that's different. There were flex seating options kind of scattered throughout each classroom. They have an integrative OT there, which is not shocking when you know what integrative OTs do.

[00:54:20] You're like, yeah, of course they have flex seating in every classroom. But what's so cool about that is that then it's not like, oh, I don't wanna sit in this other seat because the kids are gonna make fun of me because everyone else is sitting in something indifferent. Instead, it's, oh yeah, which kind of seat works best for your body to learn, or for your body to be in the classroom.

[00:54:43] And then everyone has the one that works best for them. That's what equity is. Yeah. That we all have access to what we need and it involves 

[00:54:53] Rachel: talking about how our unique brains and bodies work. Yeah. And just normalizing those conversations a hundred percent. 

[00:55:01] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. I love how 

[00:55:02] Rachel: Lake 

[00:55:03] Alyssa: talks to her daughter about how her brain and body work.

[00:55:09] It is so clearly empowered her, the daughter, to talk about herself and how her brain and body work. I'm like, that's the 

[00:55:21] Rachel: dream. Right? That is the dream. It, it is. And I think about, I think sometimes because we don't want to other children or other, our own children, sometimes we're not even seeking out a diagnosis.

[00:55:35] Maybe we're mm-hmm. Maybe pretending it's not happening or mm-hmm. Um, somebody that we're close to their child has very evident neurodivergence and could benefit from a diagnosis and supports and I think out of fear. Mm-hmm. They're not currently seeking out a diagnosis or support. And I think about this two ways.

[00:56:04] I think about the child themselves who would be empowered to know what's going on in their brain and body, um, and have the tools to help them thrive in this world. And also when. Lake was talking about her daughter calling her epilepsy brain sparkles and like explaining it to her peers that way. It made me think about other children who could benefit from that empowerment around whatever diagnosis they might be having so that they can enter into a social group and own that about themselves.

[00:56:36] Rather than it feeling like, I need to like hide this. I need to mask this is shameful. Totally. Like, no, this is what's going on. This is how my body operates. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just how it just is what it is. And having that empowerment and confidence to enter into a peer group with that feeling of being self-assured.

[00:56:57] Alyssa: It's huge. It is huge. It's so interesting 'cause just last night I was laying in bed and this came up 'cause I was thinking of things, thinking about things about myself that I don't feel confident in and it, like my thought process led down this like trail of how, like when does that start? Right? But when do we start losing self confidence?

[00:57:19] Because I was thinking about my kids and how they're both self-confident that they are confident in who they are, in how they operate, in what they need in self-advocacy and. I wonder when that will start to shift, right? I think it often comes in that peer influence time, like around the big kids, bigger feelings, time where they're in school and now there's peer influence and they want inclusion and belonging, and now they start comparing themselves in new ways.

[00:57:53] I was like, how do we preserve that? Right? How do we preserve the self-confidence and was thinking, knowing we had this today about Lake's book and the way that she's raising her daughter to know who she is and not be afraid of showing up as who she is. And I wanna like bottle that up a little bit and I was picking it apart of like, what is it that leads to that?

[00:58:24] I think it is being really clear about who they are and how they operate. So that. They're not in a social group saying like, oh my gosh, I'm so anxious and everyone else is so chill about this. Or, I don't want to feel embarrassed if X, Y, and Z happens if they find out I don't get to have a Stanley Cup, or that I, you know, am not able to get the gear that everyone else has or whatever.

[00:59:01] And I think that involves talking to them about how everyone else might be experiencing similar things. That there's not a human on the planet who's walking around and has all the things they want and is invited to all the things they wanna be invited to and feels included in every group. And that they are not weird for feeling what they're feeling.

[00:59:33] That it's just a part of being alive and being human. Yeah, for sure. And they're just, it comes up in elementary school, I was thinking of like the interviews we did with kids in this age range when we were interviewing for big kids and how much it comes up that the world they're living in inside their head.

[00:59:54] They feel like they're the only one experiencing that thing. 

[00:59:58] Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. They're, they feel isolated and outside of the norm, even though it's just like part and parcel of being a human growing up in this world, like every child in that age range is going to experience those feelings. Exactly. 

[01:00:14] Alyssa: I 

[01:00:14] Rachel: was 

[01:00:15] Alyssa: like, oh, I think it's so important to just have open conversation about exactly that when it comes to self-confidence, that it's not that you're confident all the time about every part of you, it's that, you know.

[01:00:31] That it's remarkably normal not to be. Mm-hmm. 

[01:00:36] Rachel: Yeah. And that the 

[01:00:37] Alyssa: humans around you also aren't. 

[01:00:39] Rachel: Yeah, I think that's it, right? Because I think when you are a kid and you are starting to really want to be included and feel like you belong, and you're starting to really think a lot about what your peers perceive about you, all the other kids are feeling the same way.

[01:00:57] You're all hyper aware of what each other are thinking, but it feels like you're the only one. 

[01:01:03] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was talking to somebody who runs a business similar to our size recently, and I was sharing like some of the woes of running a business and the challenges and whatever, and she was like, oh my God.

[01:01:17] On the outside, you're just slaying all of it. And she was like, I'm over here drowning, wondering do I even wanna keep doing this? And I was like, yeah. On a at least weekly basis, I'm like, do I even wanna keep doing this? Not because I don't love the work. The work's the fun part. Right. But the running of the business part.

[01:01:35] Yeah. And it was just one of those moments where I look at her outside and it looks picture perfect, and she looks at my outside and it looks picture perfect. And in actuality, we're both in it in all the ways. And experiencing all the things and knowing you're not alone in that is so comforting. Yeah. I was like, oh, I'm not failing.

[01:01:59] I'm just running a business. Right. This is just part of it. Mm-hmm. 

[01:02:04] Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. There's comfort in that. And I think often with a lot of stuff in parenthood, we think it might be, or we hope it will be just one big conversation where like we tell them like all your peers are, oh, Jeff, done, right? All your peers are experiencing this too.

[01:02:19] Don't worry, it's chill. Like Ev, it's good. You're fine. We want it to be that. And really it happens like a thousand times over when they get home from school and something's gone down and they need to debrief with you. And so I think just keeping in mind that they're, this is like a fluid situation where like sometimes your kids are gonna feel confident and they're gonna be able to self-advocate and feel good about who they are and sometimes they're not.

[01:02:46] Yeah. And it's okay for it to be kind of an ongoing, because I'm an adult and I don't always feel confident, right? Mm-hmm. 

[01:02:55] Alyssa: Oh. A hundred literally laying in bed thinking about the things I'm not loving over here. Anyway, last night. Yeah. 

[01:03:02] Rachel: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, baby. Yeah. It's just an ongoing, it's just part of being in relationship with yourself and who you are and who you wanna be.

[01:03:11] Who? I hate it. Love it. Yeah. I hate it. Love it. Mm. When my confidence is low, I hate it, but mm-hmm. Um, 

[01:03:19] Alyssa: when if you don't fly mm-hmm. Love it. Yeah. When I'm like, oh my God, yeah. I'm a New York Times best seller, like slays, whatever. Totally love it. Mm-hmm. Love it. Yeah. When all the other, when I'm like, oh, I failing at running a business, or, oh, my, the thing I was replaying in my head last night was like one of those conversation things where I walked away and was like, did I say too much about this thing?

[01:03:42] Did I not overthink all that 

[01:03:46] Rachel: last night before bed? So we're in this like new. A small group at church, and some people I know and some people are like totally new to me. And I left last night and was like, Hmm. Not feeling like totally great about that. I didn't, it was like, nothing like that I could identify specifically, but you know, when it's like, it's your first impression and also, oh yeah, I had the kids and Abel was being very difficult, which makes sense since he came down with hand, foot and mouse today.

[01:04:21] Right. But in the moment, I didn't know he was sick, so I was like, I'm trying to have some adult conversations and, um, no. Nope, just a lot. It's, wow, you're really dialed into parenting right now. This person said to me and I was like, yeah, yeah. Not really much choice here. I can't dial out at the moment, so I am dialed 

[01:04:44] Alyssa: in my, the ones that replay the most in my head are when.

[01:04:50] It's probably the only time I'm gonna see that person, which you think would just be like, okay, whatever. But if I know I'm gonna get a second chance, it's usually easier for me. But if I'm like, oh, I met this person at a thing and I'm probably never gonna talk to them again, or potentially never, where like that conversation has the ability to make or break next steps of like, will I talk to them?

[01:05:15] Will I get to collaborate with this company? Will I get to whatever those that just replay in my head a million times over like, God, I wish I could take this thing back or say it this way, or whatnot. I know it's the worst. The worst. The worst. 

[01:05:30] Rachel: I used to actually, you know what, I used to actually have OCD symptoms around work emails.

[01:05:35] Sure. Where like I would double check them 10,000 times and after get through that I sent them, I would read them again. I've been able to move past that, but, um, yeah, that's our brand though. That was so real for really long time. 

[01:05:49] Alyssa: Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. You know what's not total crap though? 

[01:05:53] Rachel: What 

[01:05:55] Alyssa: lake's Really cool book.

[01:05:57] Rachel: Oh, yes. Circling back. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 

[01:06:00] Alyssa: yeah. Uh, and we're back, uh, all about brains. I think it's just so rad. Like I said, I, I think we shy away from talking about these things and I just wanna be talking about them so much more. So thank you Lake for writing this book. Everyone go snag her book All About Brains.

[01:06:20] It's a children's book. It's so rad. It's on my bookshelf. Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voices of your village.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at seed Do and dot.

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