Not Just a Phase: Getting to the Root of School Refusal, with Attachment Nerd Eli Harwood

 Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You are listening to Voices Of Your Village, and today's episode is such a grounding one. I got to sit down with my dear friend, Eli Harwood, who you may know as @attachmentnerd over on Instagram, to dive into a topic that comes up so often, school refusal. If you've ever had a kid clinging to the doorframe or break down in tears before drop off, or you've wondered when to push and when to pause, this one's for you. Eli brings her therapist lens and lived experience to this conversation with so much empathy and wisdom and humor. We talk about what's really going on beneath school refusal, how to meet our kids with connection and structure, and why scaffolding their nervous system matters more than forcing compliance.

 This episode is full of practical strategies and those aha moments that help us show up differently for our kids and ourselves. Y'all, we are so close to big kids, bigger feelings. My next book publishing, I'm so jazzed for it to get into your hands. We have a couple pre-order bonuses, so if you head over right now to seed and so.org/book and order that bad boy and pop your order number in, we will send you some bonuses, do that before September 16th. Alright folks. Let's dive in.

[00:01:31] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:01:48] Let's dive in together

[00:01:53] starting this thing where, um, I'm gonna try and train my hair for me to wash it less, and I love this. Just decided to start yesterday is so I guess I'm like 36 hours into not watching it, but I was like silly Alyssa. Yesterday was fine. I had a news interview in the morning, but I had just watched it and then tonight I am, have a news interview tonight, and then tomorrow I have to sit on the panel and I'm like, tomorrow's folks are gonna get a real greasy Alyssa hair.

[00:02:25] I mean, it looks great. Oh, that's kind your states away. But I really love your support. 

[00:02:34] Eli: I mean, I didn't even know it, but I think I'm on that same train by just simply not washing my hair all that often because I just don't have time. So I always look a little greased up and a little something because who's 

[00:02:48] Alyssa: functioning?

[00:02:49] I really like my hair better when I have time to blow dry it after I wash it. Yes. And it lasts longer for me. Yes. And when, right now I'm in this cycle where I'm like, Ugh. But it's so greasy and I can't tolerate it. And so I'm just washing it every time I shower, which is more frequently, and, but then I don't have time to blow dry it every time.

[00:03:10] Does that make sense? I'm like, what if I, because like it 

[00:03:13] Eli: has time. 

[00:03:14] Alyssa: No, nobody has time for that. Right. 

[00:03:16] Eli: No. Um, I'm glad we just started and now we paused because I'm, MacBook was not actually plugged in. Mm. Okay. And the thing just told me my battery is dying. Okay, good. Now it's not. Now it's working 

[00:03:32] Alyssa: So good.

[00:03:33] Rachel, who, um, is my co-author of Big Kids, it's like classic. Her phone is always dying a hundred percent of the time that she answers the phone. When I call her, she's like, Hey, talk fast. I have 9% battery. I'm gonna just start 

[00:03:47] Eli: telling people that when I don't wanna talk for very long. 

[00:03:50] Alyssa: Maybe that's it.

[00:03:51] Maybe her battery is thriving. And she's like, I don't wanna chat with Alyssa. 

[00:03:55] Eli: She's like, I've got, you've got, you got one minute. Go. I love it. My emotional battery is always low, so it wouldn't be a lie. You know, 

[00:04:03] Alyssa: there is a battery in my life that is low. My battery 

[00:04:05] Eli: is about to die. You have one minute go.

[00:04:09] That is a lie. That's, I'm gonna start using that, although hopefully no one I do that with will listen to this podcast

[00:04:17] Alyssa: fast. Yeah. The next time you tell somebody like, oh my battery's low. Sorry, I just talk fast. They're gonna be like, but really? Which battery? 

[00:04:26] Eli: Well, probably both of them, honestly, with me, 

[00:04:31] Alyssa: well, I'm a human who gets stressed if I have like low battery on my phone or something, and for no real reason don't, I don't like even my computer, I'm like, even if I'm not using it, I need it to be charged.

[00:04:46] Eli: Yeah. I mean, you just never know when that situation's gonna arise, where you need the full battery. 

[00:04:53] Alyssa: Thank you for that validation. Mm-hmm. Uh, speaking of validation, I'm excited to give some parents some tools and resources to navigate school refusal because, you know, it's, I feel like it's one of those things where sometimes you hit that honeymoon period at the beginning of the school year and you're like, okay, things are cruising.

[00:05:14] Maybe there's school refusal right out the gates, but sometimes there's that honeymoon period. Mm-hmm. And then you're like, now I'm seeing it and we're a few weeks in, or something happens at school, and then there's the school refusal piece. Mm-hmm. And I was chatting with someone who comes from a lot of privilege and she was like, yeah, I mean, sometimes I feel like then we just gotta like pull back and follow a kid's lead.

[00:05:37] And I was like, yeah, sometimes you can't just not work. Mm-hmm. And so what does that look 

[00:05:43] Eli: like then? Right. And also sometimes when our kids are dysregulated, they will lead themselves off of a cliff. 

[00:05:53] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. So 

[00:05:54] Eli: we also have to be thoughtful of allowing what our children are feeling and needing to matter without letting a 6-year-old fly a plane.

[00:06:05] Yes. 

[00:06:06] Alyssa: Right. A hundred percent. Well, and I, I think part of my concern with if there's school refusal and we, you know, follow their lead, which in this instance meant like keeps them home until they're ready to go mm-hmm. That it strengthens that neural pathway of like, oh yeah, then I'm actually not safe to go to school because also now my parent thinks that I need to stay home too.

[00:06:29] Mm-hmm. I'm not safe to go to school. And we kind of reinforce that messaging. 

[00:06:34] Eli: Yes. So when I think about many things that we do in our parenting, I like to think of support as sort of the combination of offering, offering empathy and offering scaffolding. 

[00:06:48] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:48] Eli: So our, our children are learning how to be sturdy mm-hmm.

[00:06:52] On their own without us in lots of different ways. And we are going to slowly take scaffolding away in the areas where they're sturdy enough without us, and sometimes they're sturdy enough without us for a few weeks or a few months or a few years, and then they actually need the scaffolding back.

[00:07:12] There's something happening in their world that's making it hard for them to do that thing without extra support. But that's very different than saying you don't have to do the thing like it. And I think we get confused, like, oh, I'm being supportive if I let my child stay home when they don't wanna go somewhere.

[00:07:28] Yes. But there, and, and there are exceptions and this, I think the reason things like this are so messy is because there are a lot of different ways you can handle it. There's nuance and there's individual kids and individual families. So I think you want to be really attuned, you know, really listening with your emotional self, with your, with all the different variables that you have.

[00:07:52] You're listening to what does this child need right now? Yeah. And how can I support them in getting that need met? Lemme give you an example. So one of my kiddos at the beginning of the year just had a massive sense of panic about school. He has always loved school, loved it. He's Mr. Extrovert, he loves to be there.

[00:08:12] Academics feel fairly breezy and easy for him. So he has a lot of advantages that make it easy. To go to school. 

[00:08:20] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:21] Eli: But this year it was like full on, like scaling the walls. I don't want to go, I don't want to go panic, hyperventilating. And there is an instinct, I think, in all parents when we see our kids panicking to wanna, to wanna make sure that they're regulated to try and get them away from that panic.

[00:08:41] But if we're listening to our kids, what we're hearing in a panic like that is, I don't think I can handle this. 

[00:08:48] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:50] Eli: And so what we did with him is we, we really just started to excavate all of the different things that were contributing to this belief he was having. I can't handle this. And sometimes our kids are having that belief because there's something happening at school they really can't handle.

[00:09:09] Sure. You know, like there's active bullying or you know, a, a teacher who's really targeting them or they've got undiagnosed things going on that are making it hard for them to work within the system and they really can't handle what's happening there. But most of the time there's a change in their body.

[00:09:27] You know, they're getting to an age where there's, there's a new leap in their understanding of the world or their understanding of social dynamics. And it took us probably like a couple of weeks to get fully extubated. So, so the first, the first kind of couple of weeks process is me saying to him, I know you don't want to do this, and I know it feels scary and I really think you can do this and we'll get through it.

[00:09:54] I don't wanna, I don't wanna, can't I stay home? Can't I stay home? And, and this is where it gets tricky. You wanna say no initially? Yeah, because. If there is a legitimate reason for them not to be at school, they will still tell you after you say no. But if you waiver and you go, well, I mean maybe then actually that opening creates anxiety for them.

[00:10:18] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:19] Eli: Because like you had mentioned earlier, like there's a sense of, oh, I don't have to go, potentially, I don't have to go and my parent thinks potentially I shouldn't go. Also, which means that some part of my parent agrees with me that there's something I can't handle there. Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:34] Alyssa: So they 

[00:10:34] Eli: need our calm confidence of like, we're going to do this.

[00:10:37] I like to say things like, I'm going to help you do this. Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:41] Alyssa: I'm gonna 

[00:10:41] Eli: help you figure out how to do this. I hear you that you aren't sure you can, but I'm sure that you can. I'm not sure all the things you need. I'm not sure what it is that's going on exactly. But I am sure that you and I and your teachers, or whoever it is that we trust in the school, I am sure that we can figure this out.

[00:11:00] So one of the things we identified, which was really interesting to me, is that it was the first year my son had had a male teacher. He'd never had a male teacher before. You know, he had six female teachers. So first year he had a male teacher and. This is so interesting. His last three years of school before that, every single teacher left right after they taught his class.

[00:11:21] Very unrelated. They all had very different reasons for leaving. It wasn't his class, but he had this experience of like, I don't wanna bond with someone again, and then they're gonna leave again. 

[00:11:31] Alyssa: Sure. 

[00:11:32] Eli: And I don't really know how to bond with a dude. Like I know how to bond with these women, but I don't really know how to bond with a dude.

[00:11:37] So that was one interesting thing that we uncovered. Yeah. And we also uncovered that he was starting to notice and feel more complicated things about being himself in the world that he just hadn't felt in younger years. 

[00:11:52] Alyssa: A hundred percent. 

[00:11:53] Eli: You know, big. Kids, bigger feelings. Right? That's right. Baby cakes, more complicated feelings.

[00:12:01] Um, and so, you know, I knew my job was to be present emotionally in such a way that he could feel that I'm not expecting him to do this on his own a hundred. I am expecting him to do his part, which is get there, which is, you know, here's how we're gonna do it. And so we kind of go over like, what feels overwhelming?

[00:12:22] What could we do to help this feel less overwhelming? And sometimes kids are in places where they're like, 

[00:12:28] Alyssa: nothing. No. 

[00:12:30] Eli: And at that point you're like, okay, well we're gonna go, so we're gonna get in the car and you're just working on regulating your own body because I do have to go to work. I mean, unfortunately, I really should have thought about that whole marrying from anything.

[00:12:44] I didn't do that honestly, even if I did, I really like my work. Yeah, me too. And it's how my brain works, you know? Yeah. I am my best mother self when I am mothering and working in other ways in the world. Same. That's just true of who I'm, I 

[00:13:00] Alyssa: would maybe choose different ratios of, like right now I work four days and I have Fridays off with the kids.

[00:13:09] 'cause they're not in school yet. They're in childcare. Mm-hmm. And we have that flexibility and I really like that. And so when I think of like the kids being in school five days and me working five days and being not with them all five, that I don't love. Mm-hmm. So I would choose different ratios, but I'm still here for working.

[00:13:27] Mm-hmm. Human just as a sidebar. 

[00:13:29] Eli: Yes. I love the sidebar. I love it. So anyway, I mean, I, yeah. What, you know, you're, you're going, okay, this school refusal is anxiety. Yeah. And the, and the question is, what's the anxiety about? Is it about something that we need to actively address or is it just a part of the childhood brain getting activated and needing containment from a parent 

[00:13:54] Alyssa: being human and being alive of like, yes.

[00:13:57] It, when we look at those big kids, bigger feelings of how much inclusion and belonging feels so important and really starts to matter in new ways, and that like social peer connection, as their physical bodies are changing, their emotional bodies are changing, and that they're going to, they're gonna feel excluded, they're gonna feel left out, there's gonna be embarrassment and all these things that are coming up that are so beyond the like, can I handle the academics of school?

[00:14:28] Mm-hmm. And that are all a part of school. Right. And so what I love so much that you broke down were two things that jumped out at me. One. A phrase we use so much in our household is, I'm gonna help you figure this out. Hmm. So we're gonna figure this out as part of this. Yep. And you don't have to do it alone.

[00:14:46] We're gonna figure this out together. Yes. And the other part being the just consistent safety in your messaging of kind of like, I've got you that I am not afraid of this thing much younger than like school refusal age. But when Sie was two, he had started a new childcare. And on the way there, about two weeks in, he didn't wanna go.

[00:15:08] He didn't wanna go. We'd gotten into the car, we're on the way there. He said, mom, I'm gonna feel sad and I'm gonna be all alone and you won't be there. And in that moment I wanna be like, I don't need this. Let's go home. Quit my job. Right. Don't. Instead we got to wade into the conversation. I validated his sadness and experience and talked about how cool feelings are that none of our feelings stay for a long time.

[00:15:34] And so we talked about how last night he was playing this game with dad and he was happy and he was laughing and now he's not feeling happy anymore. 'cause Happy doesn't stay for a long time. And scared doesn't stay for a long time. And sad doesn't stay for a long time. And the cool thing about feelings is that they stay for a little while and then we feel something else in a bit.

[00:15:53] Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, you might feel embarrassed, you might feel disappointed, you might feel left out and you're gonna feel something else in a little bit. And that's a huge part of the like security in our feelings and allowing ourselves to be in a feeling without trying to just make it go away is knowing this is gonna pass.

[00:16:13] Eli: Yes. I love that. It's so wise. And my guess is is that you had chosen childcare. That you felt was competent and supportive and you know, so there's also sort of that we can do that next step of bridging the gap between care. You know, as a clinician we, we would talk about like coordinating care, um, or transfer of care.

[00:16:37] So the other thing I did with my son, I said, would it be helpful for you if I had a conversation with your teacher and you and I had a conversation? He's at the age where I don't just do that on my own. You and I had a conversation with teacher about some of what you're feeling and going through so that he just knows that because there's something about knowing, okay, the adult that's here knows that there's these things going on inside of me.

[00:16:59] And so we did that. We set up a little meeting, I had him share, there was some empathy in response and it wasn't like a, a cure all because I think personality match wasn't all the way there. But there was a relief in general for my child of like. Okay. This has gotten transferred from here to here and it, it took like a couple of weeks for it to go.

[00:17:23] And then it went, then it was gone. And then we had, we had a similar kind of thing come up, you know, during the summer around swim team. And so it was kind of like going through that again of like, what do we need? How can we make this work? What are the, you know, it was like, oh, all his two closest friends who were on the swim team last year weren't doing it this year.

[00:17:40] Oh, so you're worried about not having people. That makes sense. Yeah. Here are these other people I know that are doing it that you haven't gotten to know. This might be your year. You get to make new friends. I know, but I don't What, what would, what would be helpful? Would be helpful that for me to set up some play dates with them.

[00:17:54] Yeah. But not just like a random play date mom. Okay. What kind of like, he's like, I wanna cook for them. That's like, that's his confidence place. Oh, upset. Oh yeah. Um, let's do that then. Let's come up with a time where you can cook dinner for them and we can have them over and. That kind of relieved it. And then as he's gone and gone, he is like, oh, now he's starting to get his groove.

[00:18:14] Or if it's like, you know, and kids can have school refusal because they are highly sensitive and worried about their performance. They can have school refusal because they are of a minority identity. And so they're in their class every single day dealing with stereotypes without any other kids like them who help them buffer that experience.

[00:18:32] Yeah. Or, um, or they're like, you know, there's sensory stuff that they're overstimulated or they're understimulated, they're not getting their needs met. Um, so it's our job to kind of go, what are the different needs here? How can I support you in getting your needs met so that this doesn't feel so panicky or dysregulating to you?

[00:18:50] There are times when it's like, okay, listen, we're just gonna not get there on time today. Let's just take a pause. Let's work on getting, we are gonna go today, but I'm gonna, you know, when kids are littler, one of my favorite hacks is to say, you can start when you're ready. 

[00:19:07] Alyssa: Mm. 

[00:19:08] Eli: And and to say You can stay in my arms and hold onto me until you're ready to get on the soccer field, go into the school building.

[00:19:15] You know, obviously this is only if you have the time to do that. Yeah. But if you do have the time to do that, that can give kids that sense of I a I am going to go. But that pressure of like, I have to go right now. And that instinct to clinging gets reduced by saying, you choose when you're ready. Um, I did this recently with one of my daughters in swim team 'cause she's only five and she's doing swim team.

[00:19:37] And so the pool is cold. It's kind of an overwhelming thing to be like kind of competing with other people, you know? I'm like, okay, totally. I'm gonna sit with you right here on the side until you're ready. And we sat there for maybe two and a half minutes. And then she was like, when they come back to the other side, IgG.

[00:19:58] So thinking through what are the unmet needs? How can I be a support, how can I scaffold the situation? And then from a internal perspective, how can I communicate? I'm okay with the fact that you are not okay. 

[00:20:12] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. And you 

[00:20:12] Eli: can have some agency in when this happens or how this happens, you don't have agency over whether or not it's happening.

[00:20:22] Yes, that's a decision I've made. It's happening. But you can have some influence on the win and the how. Some, not all, some. I 

[00:20:31] Alyssa: love this in that it also, it requires us to be curious of like, Hey, what is going on here? What's driving this? That so often we can get into a space where either we're like, no, you're gonna school, like it's gonna be fine.

[00:20:46] It's that end. Or the other end of the spectrum of like if we had any challenging moments in school where we didn't wanna go or we were bullied or we were made fun of, or we didn't feel like we were in Ingroup, or we were overstimulated understimulated and now we're operating from Tiny human and Alyssa, who is like, yeah, you don't have to go to school.

[00:21:06] Like, let's have a home day, let's whatever. And not to knock a home day, because I think home days are super rad. But if the home day is simply in response to, I don't feel like I can go to school, and then we say, yeah, let's have a home day. I don't think you can either. Yeah. That's different than we're doing a surprise home day or whatever that structure is.

[00:21:28] I think one thing that can be so challenging is getting curious and being able to figure out like what are the questions I ask myself or ask my child in that moment of curiosity to help uncover what's going on. And even like the speed with which to do so, right? Like I think of my sensory sensitive child and if I'm firing questions out, like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

[00:21:54] He's like, whoa. Whereas my daughter, she's like, yeah, let's keep going. She like wants that pace. She can handle that pace, likes that pace. And if I have too much pause, she's like, all right, you still here with me? Keep going. Keep going lady. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Whereas for him, I have to like ask a question, get curious.

[00:22:12] Pause for a bit. Let him take it in. Mm-hmm. And so if we can maybe walk through, like what does it look like in the moment your kid's like, I'm not going to school, or I'm not gonna do that. I don't wanna go, I can't go to school. How do we know? Like, what are those best next 

[00:22:27] Eli: questions to ask? Yeah. I love this.

[00:22:30] Before I answer that, I'm gonna give one tip in front of that, which is the, the first thing we do when they say I'm not going, I don't want to go, is we welcome their feelings about that. And that does not mean considering the decision. It means welcoming the feelings. Oh, love you're feeling so bad. You're like, I don't wanna go to school.

[00:22:52] That's how bad you feel right now. Come here, come here. You're not saying we're going to stay home. You're also not leaping into let's fix this and solve this. You're actually nuancing for them. Oh, I don't wanna go to school. School refusal is emotional upset. So we're helping them recognize that that's what this is.

[00:23:18] Because in their brain, it's life or death. 

[00:23:20] Alyssa: A hundred 

[00:23:21] Eli: percent. It's not, I'm worried, I'm nervous, I'm anxious, I'm uncomfortable. I need something that, that's very nuanced. I mean, I know a lot of adults who can't do that in an anxious moment, right? Mm-hmm. So their brain is saying, I will die if I go to school.

[00:23:35] I will live if you let me stay. 

[00:23:36] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:37] Eli: And so you have to be responding in a way that helps their brain go, oh, she or he or they is not trying to get in between me and my survival. 

[00:23:48] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:49] Eli: They're accepting that. And then. So I would say first thing is that acceptance. Oh, you don't wanna go to school.

[00:23:56] You're feeling so awful that you're not wanting to go to school. Yeah. I don't wanna, I don't wanna come here, come here, come here. Okay. Okay. Their brain might think you're saying, okay, you don't have to go to school. That's fine. Totally. Bring them in. Bring them in, hold them there for a minute. Do as much calming connection as you can.

[00:24:18] And then I, I would maybe pull their little face back and go, tell me everything you know about why you don't wanna go. Mm-hmm. And give time. And so sometimes our kids are gonna say, I don't know, because that's just legitimate. True. They don't know. But other times they're gonna say, well, Sally, yesterday, I mean, I ha how many times have I had to hear my kids tell me about someone that called them fat or used a homophobic slur against them?

[00:24:45] Because that's what they do, even though they have no idea what that means in elementary school or, you know. That is happening in their world and it's painful. So like they might come out with the stuff. So, so you're giving them that initial chance for it to be just simply their perspective in case there is something they need to tell you.

[00:25:05] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. And I 

[00:25:06] Eli: always like to say things like, and no matter what it is, you can tell me I can handle it. You give them a minute. And if they're like, I don't know why, I don't know why, I dunno why, I'll go, oh, you have a case of the, I don't know whys. It's the worst. It's the worst to feel so upset and to not know why.

[00:25:27] So you just know your body doesn't wanna go, but you're not sure why. 

[00:25:32] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:25:32] Eli: Okay. Oh, well that's good news a little bit because I'm, I'm glad to hear it's not something that you knew was really bad and you were, you know, worried about it might just be. You need some extra help from me and that we're gonna figure out how to get there.

[00:25:53] So, and depending on their age, this is again, where this gets nuanced, I might say. Is there anything that you can think of right now that would make your body feel good? Because when we regulate our bodies, we regulate our brains. Right? So, mm-hmm. And that might, and then just stay, stay at home. Yeah. Okay.

[00:26:16] Just stay home. Oh, okay. Okay. Because why? What's at home that makes you feel so good? It's warm at home. Oh, you worried about being cold? That makes sense. It's kind of cold outside. You don't like being cold. I hate being cold. I have some ideas about that. I have this extra furry, blah, blah, blah. Or, you know what I always have been forgetting to do this week I keep forgetting to warm up the car.

[00:26:43] Oh, I hate being in a cold car. Okay, I'm gonna warm up the car early today. That's one thing we're gonna do to make this easier. Can you think of anything else? You know, and, and that might be, you know, let's get you some breakfast or let's, you know, sometimes just getting kids in motion, it's like getting them to that.

[00:27:00] I dunno if you've ever had this, but like, when your room is a mess and you're like, I need to clean my room. And you open the door and it's like, there's stuff everywhere and you're just like, Nope, not doing that, not doing that. I ca I don't, you know, it's like you need someone to say like, let's just start by removing the trash and you're like.

[00:27:18] Okay, I can remove the trash. What I can't do is clean my room, but what I can do is remove the trash. And I think we're doing that same thing for our kids. Like, I can't go to school. Okay, well let's get you to the bathroom, let's brush your teeth. Let's, let's get you something to eat. You know, let's get, get movement going in ways that feel manageable, and then we can kind of get to that next step and that next step.

[00:27:39] And sometimes that might mean we have like a panicky, screaming kid on the way to school. Totally. And you're in the car just going, I know this is hard. I know. Is there somebody at school that I can, that we can talk to? Like who's your, who's your favorite teacher? Who's the favorite space? You know, if there's an office person, is there, you know, can we, can I go find your friend?

[00:28:00] Like, you know, not anxiously. And again, I think what you talked about that pacing one question at a time, I'm giving you all lots of questions because I want you to have them, but it's, Hey, who would be a good person? For us to go find at school, who can help be with you when it's time for me to leave, you know?

[00:28:20] And then sitting and waiting. They might initially say, nobody. Nobody. And you just sit there. You sit there and they cry and they scream and you work and calming your own body because it's irritating when our children are screaming at us in a vehicle. Like, and then, you know, you know who I think really loves when you're there is Mrs.

[00:28:40] Rosenberg, we're gonna go find Mrs. Rosenberg. Or you know, who I think would be super helpful, you know, is Librarian McDowell or whoever. It's like, we're gonna go find that person and we're gonna let them know that you're feeling really overwhelmed. That you need some extra TLC today, you need some extra care.

[00:29:02] You need somebody who's gonna be there for you. So you're, you know, scaffolding them as you get them through the morning and then you're helping them find people who can scaffold them as they get through their day. 

[00:29:11] Alyssa: I love this in so many ways. Okay, I'm gonna break some things down. One thing that I was thinking about when you were chatting, my husband is sensory sensitive and he was in like first or second grade.

[00:29:24] And. Started saying he didn't wanna go to school. He didn't wanna go to school. His mom's incredible. And was mm-hmm. So thoughtful in her response. And also was curious. And at one point she was like, are there certain parts of the day? And he said something about how he's so hungry and mm-hmm. She said like, to, let's talk about lunchtime.

[00:29:44] And he said that he can't eat at lunch. What do you mean you can't eat? And he couldn't like articulate what it was. And so she said, maybe I can come in and be your lunch buddy. And so she came in to just like experience lunchtime and walked in and was like, oh, this cafeteria is so loud and overwhelming.

[00:30:00] His nervous system was so flooded that he wasn't eating lunch at school. Mm-hmm. And so then, yeah, he was hangry and was just like treading water to stay afloat and on top of just being overstimulated from the day as a sensory sensitive human. And so after being his lunch buddy for the day, then was able to work with the teacher and create a plan where he got to be in this small group of kids who could have lunch together in a room.

[00:30:27] And he started eating lunch and the school refusal went away. 

[00:30:31] Eli: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:32] Alyssa: So much of that was the curiosity of what's happening here. And when he was like, well, I'm hungry that she also still didn't just shut it down and say like, well then why don't you eat lunch bud? Right. Like there was just like love and curiosity and openness and then that ability to be an advocate for him and say, Hey, here's going on.

[00:30:55] We, um. Actually in partnership with big kids, but your feelings coming out. We do a bunch of work in elementary schools as it is, but we're, we've put together, uh, like a school audit that we can do with schools. That's a comprehensive audit to look at everything from policies to interactions to environment, uh, climate, culture of is this a regulating and emotionally supportive space?

[00:31:24] Hmm. And so looking from like sensory systems to interactions, like what's happening and being able to get down and dirty with what do we have as a system here. Mm-hmm. And how's it working and where are the gaps that we might need to dive a little deeper into? And this is born out of, I've been going into so many school districts doing this work.

[00:31:47] We got to the point this year where we just had a school district reach out and I was at capacity. I was like, I can't take on any more schools this year. And we're like, well then we need to look at how do we make this available. Mm-hmm. Beyond, beyond me going into schools. And so really got down and dirty with what am I doing in schools and put together this audit system because so often schools are just trying so hard to meet everybody's needs and working within systems we've inherited.

[00:32:17] Yeah. And that we've grown up with and that we've been conditioned through, and thus not able to see outside of what have, what have we always done, what are we doing? How do we meet all nervous system needs? Mm-hmm. And also, what is a need versus a want, and how do we respond to them? Yes. And Yes. Uh, when we were creating this, one of the things we've seen across the board in a lot of spaces is a lot of places have started to implement tools for sensory seekers, but not for sensory sensitive humans.

[00:32:52] Interesting. That interesting. Overwhelming. Mm-hmm. The overwhelming nature of schools. Sometimes they'll have like noise canceling headphones, but it often stops there. They might have, I'm gonna put calming corner in quotes, 'cause it's usually like a space in the corner of the room that still is not enclosed, that faces everything that doesn't decrease stimuli their kids.

[00:33:08] And then the other thing is the connection needs seen as a want that their attention seeking, that they want attention and not being able to see that as a need. And so when it comes to advocating for our kids' needs at school, this is one thing we've seen consistently is that. Parents can find themselves in a role of needing to advocate for their sensory sensitive humans and for connection needs.

[00:33:38] Eli: Love this. You know, we had the blessing this year of having our twin five-year-olds at this incredible preschool, and two of the teachers in particular were masterful in how they graded the children. And my kids did not one time refuse school as preschoolers, and they had been refusing school at their previous preschool in different ways.

[00:34:04] And honestly, I saw maybe, maybe two kids at any point have a meltdown going into preschool in a year of preschool. And, and it was that the kids could sense that the teachers wanted them there. So as you know, as anyone guiding anyone, like especially of a room full of children, you have many different ones.

[00:34:24] So of course you want the children to follow instructions and to, you know, be cooperative and all of that stuff. But if the primary want isn't, I want you here with me. It's dysregulating for kids of all sizes, types, you know, and I have, I have sensory seekers and I have sensory sensitive in my family. I have both.

[00:34:48] So I have an awareness of like how all that creates, like, chaos for a teacher where you're like, wait, I'm trying to make an environment like this for this kid, and then that actually disregulates this other kid. I mean, it's complicated. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think if you start the day with Henry, hi buddy, you know, oh, hi, sweet girl.

[00:35:12] Oh, I'm so glad you're here. You know, obviously that's talking to preschoolers, you're talking to a third grader like that, they're gonna look at you like you're cuckoo. But you can, but you still can go, Hey pal. You know, I, I, I greet all my son's friends like this, you know, they're, they're all 10 or 11, you know, it's like, I've got nicknames for him.

[00:35:29] I'm like, what up Bill? Give them the, you know, how are you, and over time they want to be around you more because they're like, this person wants me around. And so I think that's being connection focused. I just wanna put the easy one out there. 'cause I know it can be really exhausting to try and figure all this out, but just start, start with connection and that's like a, that will grease the wheel in so many ways for the rest of the day.

[00:35:54] Alyssa: It's huge in so many ways. There's a teacher, there's a, a school district we've been working with for a couple years and there's this teacher, he's a young dude and he could give, I, I just told him, I was just in this classroom last week, I was like, you could give a masterclass on connection. It's something he just slays so well.

[00:36:12] And it's a population of High ACEs, a lot of trauma, poverty, and this teacher. He is got nicknames for everybody. He like, knows how to connect with 'em. He teaches first grade and it's not a like blanket. Everyone gets the same thing. It's, he knows the ins and outs of this person, right? Yes. And so he's like, oh, I know if I get too close to that kid, they pull away.

[00:36:37] And so he has like a special air five connection mm-hmm. Situation. Mm-hmm. With one kid. Mm-hmm. And another kiddo, it's like a joke about the bills because he's a Buffalo Bills fan and that kid isn't right. And like mm-hmm. With each kid they're, he's a tuning. Yes. He's, he's phenomenal at a tuning and I.

[00:37:00] Can't stress how cool it was to see his classroom transform throughout the year. Where like he got a, a group of kids who came in with high needs and I got to pop in at the beginning of the school year, throughout the school year and at the end. And it's so cool to watch how transformative starting with a connecting relationship is.

[00:37:23] Yes, we can't do anything if we don't feel safe. 

[00:37:26] Eli: Safe to be our authentic selves wanted in the room free to be in progress. You know, someone who makes mistakes. My, one of my girls, we went to a, they went to a gymnastics camp for the summer for like a three hour gymnastics camp and she kept getting in trouble, was her language in this, and she's five years old, so you know, and she's a sensory seeker and probably a DHD may be on the spectrum.

[00:37:52] She's not old enough yet for us to kind of have all of those things. But there's something neurodivergent and how her brain works and. You know, when she hit a point where she didn't wanna go anymore, her language was, they're so harsh with me. And I'm like, they're harsh. Well, what happened? Well, they did.

[00:38:07] They, you know, I, I pulled on someone's, um, leotard and they put me in timeout while I was crying by myself in the corner. And, and it felt so shame based to her. And I thought, well, two things have happened here. One, the people leading the camp were adorable. Teenagers who did not know who was coming, what their names were, there was no sense of like, you are here with me.

[00:38:31] And so I think that's dysregulating. And there was no clear expectation. Here's what the rules are, let's go over them. Let me help you understand what's expected of you. Um, and I think when we are paying attention to children, that means we are deeply attuned to what makes them tick. To how, what, what makes them tick up?

[00:38:55] What makes them tick down? What makes them light up? What makes them blow up? You know, like what is happening for them. Again, easier said than done when you have a classroom of 25 to 35 students, but that initial sense of you belong here with me is going to be, it's going to grease the wheel so that everything else that you're asking of a kid becomes so much easier.

[00:39:21] And you know, if you're dealing with school refusal at home, call that teacher up and say, Hey, my kids sometimes doesn't feel like they're wanted or like they belong in the space. I mean, that's true for all kids, but it doesn't matter. You just tell the teacher that this is, this is what's happening here.

[00:39:39] Could you help communicate to them that you want them here? Just that. 

[00:39:43] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. You 

[00:39:45] Eli: know, like they write a little note. We really missed you yesterday. I really noticed that you weren't here. Or, um. You know when they come in the room like, Hey kid, I heard you're feeling nervous about school. I just want you to know that I'm so glad you're here.

[00:39:57] You make this class a better place. That is powerful, incredibly effective. It's effective. You know, you know what's not effective is if you don't go to school, you're gonna lose this and you're gonna lose this, and you're gonna lose this, and you're gonna do this. Or if you do, you know, it's like now their brain is flooded with, there's nowhere in the world where I can handle things, 

[00:40:20] Alyssa: and what it does is still just stays on the surface in response to the behavior instead of the need.

[00:40:26] Mm-hmm. We were just chatting with one of the schools we work with. I was talking to the principal and I said, the reality is we have no business creating a behavior support plan until you can tell what the root of this behavior is. What the unmet need is. Yes. We can't create a behavior support plan. I can put together punishments, we can put together reward charts, we can try and get positive reward.

[00:40:48] Systems going to change a behavior, and you will temporarily change a behavior. You're gonna see a new one pop up until we meet that need. And so the school refusal is simply a behavior communicating a need of, yes, it's a sensory need, it's an emotional need, it's a connection need, whatever that is, it's a need that's driving this behavior.

[00:41:09] So if all we do is respond to the behavior that need doesn't go away. 

[00:41:14] Eli: No, it doesn't get met. And if you just respond to the behavior and a child behaves. A lot of times what's happening is they are shutting down at such a level that they're disconnecting to their body and their feelings. 'cause I would argue that school refusal isn't even behavior.

[00:41:31] In some ways it's emotional response and it's just pure panic. You know, I don't wanna go, I don't wanna go, I don't wanna go. I'm afraid. It's emotion. And so if you get the child to stop expressing that emotion to you and they, they comply and they go to school without telling you how they're feeling inside, you're, you either have a disconnect that they're growing between themselves and their body, or you have an implosion that's happening.

[00:41:56] And that can lead to more complicated emotional states as they develop what I feel doesn't matter to people. So I might as well just be gone from here. I mean, I'm being dramatic a little bit, but, but 

[00:42:09] Alyssa: it starts somewhere. There's a correlation there that doesn't just come from nowhere. Yeah. Yes, a hundred percent.

[00:42:13] Well, and that's what I was gonna add was that it's. At the very least going to lead to a distrust between us and them, or a disconnection between us and them as their, as their parents, and as their caregivers. And I know that that's not what any of us are looking for. And so I think having the strategies and the language to be like, great, here's how we move forward with this.

[00:42:35] Here's how we support them. And letting them know that they can do hard things, right. They are going to feel left out. They are going to feel excluded. They're gonna have those, we just had a girl who was navigating school or refusal, she's in fourth grade, and it was embarrassment and feeling left out.

[00:42:52] Mm-hmm. And the reality is she's still gonna feel those things sometimes when she goes to school. And what she really needs to know is that she has tools to navigate them. And so that's what we gotta build with her was what do you do when you feel those things? And it was. She thought we were absolutely nuts when we talked about how these other girls that she just so badly wanted to be included with also sometimes feel left out and embarrassed.

[00:43:18] She was like, in no world does that happen for them. Mm. And just like normalizing feelings, and this is. It's something that's so powerful that we get to do as teachers in schools where we have, you got a classroom of kids and you have these behaviors. One of the things we get to do that's so powerful is navigate emotion coaching in a group because other kids get to see, oh, everyone has these feelings.

[00:43:42] Eli: Yes, yes. You know, if anyone hasn't heard of 'em yet. Also there's an organization called Tap Outs, um, that does online support groups for kids and it's basic, I mean, it's really well done. They like gamify learning about emotions and it's just, they put 'em in like age groups that are similar so they're like with kids or similar and just basically helping create that shared learning environment around emotions because it is more effective.

[00:44:08] I can tell my kid and my kid knows I'm a therapist, he knows and trust me, but I can tell my kid till I'm blue in the face. Like, here are some practical things you can do when you're feeling X, Y, and Z and it is not as effective as if he is learning that in a group with other kids who say, I feel that too.

[00:44:22] 'cause just knowing other kids feel the same thing. Helps relax the feeling, right? We all have that. It's like, I think of, uh, Brene Brown's book. I thought it was just me, but it isn't, you know, like turns out, oh no, like we're all in this. It's messy, it's emotional, you know, but the peer experience, if you feel it, I feel it.

[00:44:41] We're all wor. Learning how to work through this is so powerful. So tap outs is a great resource. Um, I love that. 

[00:44:47] Alyssa: That's super cool. Yeah. I think of even just like as parent, we were just the other day talking about how in, in the office there's three of us that have very similar age kids. And one of my colleagues was like, God, I hate dinner time.

[00:45:02] Like dinner one sucks. And like, none of my kids wanna eat dinner, they wanna be on my lap. Or it's full chaos. And they're coming, they're going and then they don't want this, but then they wanna snack in 15 minutes. And uhhuh, uh, we were, everybody just echoed the like, oh, thank God it sucks at your house too.

[00:45:16] Yes. They're like, you do all the quote right things and still nobody's eating the food you made and yada yada. And we're like, great. Like, it's not easier, 

[00:45:27] Eli: but it, there it is. Lighter. We're social creatures. It is easier to do hard things when we don't feel alone, and that's what we're doing. That's how we're supporting kids around school refusal.

[00:45:37] Yeah, this feels hard for you. I'm gonna figure out how to help you feel less alone, whether that's my presence or me supporting you by connecting you to someone in the school who can be that presence. But we're going to figure out how to help you not have to handle this alone until you're ready to, until you're like, it's okay.

[00:45:51] I got this. Because yeah, we need each other. That's just the truth about human beings at whatever stage we're in, but especially when we're in childhood. 

[00:46:02] Alyssa: Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:46:14] Rachel: How we doing R? I had a full mental breakdown this morning. Um, sick. Tell me more. We're, we're kind of in survival mode right now with like some personal logistical, financial jazz that we've been navigating. And it's not like an emergency, it's just an inconvenience and it is, has been kind of ongoing. Um, and then add in like that we're getting back to school and I'm thinking about all of that and also holding it down at home while Cody is like physically dealing with the logistical stuff that is happening.

[00:46:55] So this morning Abel could not find something and Abel is sick and he has very low tolerance. So it really needed to be found. And um, Cody had looked and had not been able to find it and. I was gonna have to get out the door for work. And there was this part of me that was like, I wanna be the one who has to get out the door for work and not the one who is going to be home and has to solve this so that the rest of my day can happen 

[00:47:27] Alyssa: a hundred percent.

[00:47:30] But like I sometimes have total envy of you just get to leave, right? Like, oh, you can't find it. Shoot. Oh, you're having a hard time with this morning trying to get to school. 

[00:47:45] Rachel: I gotta go. Right? So I at one point was looking in the basement for this item and just sat down and cried. Not over the item being lost just over.

[00:47:59] All of it. Like, I just, I guess I didn't realize that I've been in survival mode. You know how sometimes you just power through, you're like, this needs to get done, this needs to get done, percent I'm doing, I'm meeting needs, I'm caring, doing it all. And then yes, this morning my body and brain were just like, Nope.

[00:48:16] Can't do this anymore. Can't sustain this. Um, anyway, I found the item. Obviously, I, I had to find it 'cause I'm the one who lives in this house constantly. Um, and we got through it and I have childcare, although Abel is still sick. He's well enough to place without 

[00:48:38] Alyssa: you for a minute. Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:40] Rachel: Yeah. 

[00:48:41] Alyssa: Yeah. That's where we are.

[00:48:43] Actually, Sage, you went back to childcare today. Bless, Lord Willing. He was out of routine for a week and it showed, it was like a week of vacation back to school for a week. Which was also like weird 'cause Gabby had moved and mm-hmm. His teacher was no longer there. And so like, there was already change.

[00:49:06] And then we had the appointment Monday and then hand, foot and mouth hits and I was just like, oh my God. His level of dysregulation was real. Um, and today, thank goodness he was able to be back at school just for everyone's wellbeing because it, oh, how do I say this without feeling ungrateful? My parents are here and it's so helpful, right?

[00:49:36] Like he was able to be with them on Tuesday and Wednesday. He had a fever, like low fever Tuesday, woke up Wednesday with no fever. He has no open sores, so just like the dots in his throat. But he was able to all day yesterday, eat without medicine or anything like that. So we're like, you're going to school.

[00:49:55] Mm-hmm. And I, again, so grateful my parents are here, they were able to step in so I could work such a gift. And long term like parenting, especially him with my parents, is so tough. I grew up in a household where it was very much power over and control focused of like the adult is in control. I wrote about it in tiny humans, like the inmates don't run the asylum, my dad would say.

[00:50:26] Mm-hmm. Or this is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship and you are not the dictator. Another common one I heard, and that is still very much the way of parenting. There for them. Um, I'd say specifically for my dad, and it is not what Sage's used to for parenting. He is used to saying things like, I don't like when you do that.

[00:50:54] Or, it hurts my feelings when X, Y, and Z. And, uh, yeah, it just is, uh, it's been two full days of them parenting my kids and I think everyone, including the people parenting him, were like ready for him to go to school today. 

[00:51:14] Rachel: Uh, yeah, I mean, I think it's hard when, especially when you're dealing with a sensory sensitive child.

[00:51:23] I mean, any child who's not used to a power over dynamic is gonna have feelings, but add sickness and unique sensory needs, and being out of routine is just. It's just a recipe for a lot of dysregulation. 

[00:51:41] Alyssa: And my perception is that they see sometimes our parenting with him as us just letting him run the show, which is not what I would say is happening.

[00:51:57] It's more that he just gets to have a voice in a way that I never got to have a voice. 

[00:52:01] Eli: Totally. 

[00:52:02] Alyssa: And I'll give you an example. He's a picky eater all coming back to sensory stuff. And he does not like any black on his hotdog. So like he doesn't like a hotdog on the grill. He needs it boiled. Yes. Mm-hmm. Or microwaved.

[00:52:21] He's like, I'll take either, but he does not like the taste of like that char char. Yeah. It's bitter. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He does not like it. He doesn't like how it feels or tastes. And he was hungry last night for dinner. That was clear and. Zach just not thinking, obviously just had thrown, we had a bunch of stuff on the grill he tossed a hot dog on and then say, just not gonna eat it.

[00:52:44] And I said, buddy, I will make your you a hot dog real quick. Mm-hmm. And you can have that with dinner. And that is not something I would've received as a child. It would've been like, Nope, you don't have to love it. This is what's for dinner. We're not making anything else. Mm-hmm. Which makes total sense.

[00:53:02] I'm one of five kids and they could not have like made customized meals for all five and also sensory needs just weren't as acknowledged and we weren't as aware of them, whatever. But it's things like that where I think it's seen as, no, he doesn't have to know why. Like, because I said so is that culture I grew up in?

[00:53:24] And so when he's like, but why can't I do this? And I explain it to him, I think that's seen as him like having control in a way that they think is not how one should parent. This is not something they've said. I just have felt it. 

[00:53:39] Rachel: Yeah. I have felt this before too. It's hard to parent differently than your parents in front of your parents.

[00:53:47] Yeah. I feel that with Abel. I actually felt this on vacation when we were at Funtown. Not specifically with my parents, but with family members, especially like family that we don't see often and then they get one snapshot of Abel, um, a hundred percent. That's really hard for me. And Abel was very dysregulated this day and was being super, super unkind in his words.

[00:54:17] And um, the problem was, is he needed a change of environment and I couldn't provide it. Mm-hmm. Nobody said anything, but I just felt like they must just be thinking that I just let him do whatever he wants and say whatever he wants and that I don't have boundaries around his behavior that we don't have expectations for how we talk to each other, none of which is true.

[00:54:39] Um, but for Abel, when his, when he's that much in the red zone, his brain's just not even on. Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's like 

[00:54:49] Alyssa: also, even if our expectation is that we speak kindly to each other or whatever it is right now is not the time to talk about that. Totally. Right Now, I can't change this right now.

[00:55:03] The only way out of it is through it. That learning and that teaching comes outside the moment. And that's where like, yeah, yesterday when I tapped in, I like left working and tapped into my kids and they were both kinda losing their shit and. I was like, why don't we grab a snack and go take some space?

[00:55:28] And SJ was like, yeah, I wanna go to my room with just you. And I was like, okay. Beans. Probably also wants that where she comes to a room with just me and gets all my attention. Mm-hmm. There's one of me right now, if I go with just you, she's gonna feel left out. If I go with just her, you're gonna feel left out.

[00:55:51] I wonder if we could go to your room and lay and read books and you can be on one side of me and she can be on the other side of me and we can just have a snack. And at first he was like, no, that's not a good idea. And I was like, okay. Do you have another idea that works here that like. We will work for you too.

[00:56:13] And he was like, well, we could go to my room and she could be on my top bunk and I could be on the bottom bunk with you. And like obviously talking through why that's not okay and all that, Jess. And then he comes and lands on like, okay, my plan is the one he wants to do. Okay. And so through a lot of like him yelling, no, that's not a good idea.

[00:56:34] And yada yada, I'm not like, you need to speak kindly to me right now. Like right now he can't correct right now. He needs a snack, he needs a reset, he needs to just have some downtime with me. And then we did, we got that and we laid there and it was so nice. It was an awesome reset for all three of us.

[00:56:53] And he ended up telling me the like hard parts of his day after we had that reset and what wa he was still stewing on and what was coming up for him. And of course it's like a 4-year-old perspective. Like I don't think that it's all like. True. Totally in the way that like, but it's true for him, right?

[00:57:12] Rachel: It was his experience of like, this is what, 

[00:57:13] Alyssa: yes. Like I don't think Mila did all these things quote on purpose. Right. To me, she's just being a toddler, 

[00:57:20] Rachel: but 

[00:57:21] Alyssa: yeah, exactly. But I was able to like give him that space and then we could talk about things like, oh, that makes sense. And when you were feeling frustrated with all of that and I came and saw you at the end of my workday and we were gonna make a plan together, you were yelling at me in beans a lot.

[00:57:40] And that's not how we talk to each other in this house. It's not okay to yell at each other. Just like, even if I had a hard day at work, it's not okay for me to come and yell at you. 

[00:57:51] Eli: Yeah, 

[00:57:51] Alyssa: absolutely. So I wanna help you with some ideas for how you can tell me that you've had a hard day without yelling at me.

[00:57:59] Rachel: Yeah. And I think like one thing that is important to know is that. We forget this a lot, at least I do like kids know when they have behaved in a way that is outside of what's expected. After that whole shebang at the amusement park with Abel, later on in the day, we were just chatting. I hadn't even circled back to it yet.

[00:58:21] I didn't feel like I had the bandwidth for it, but I was just chatting with him and I was like, buddy, I love you so much. And he was like, even though I was so rude to you today, so he already, like, he and his own little six-year-old brain had already been thinking about like, shit I, that's not how we're supposed to treat each other in this family.

[00:58:41] Eli: Yeah. 

[00:58:42] Rachel: And of course I was like, buddy, nothing you do or don't do changes how I feel about you and we need to make a plan and it sucked in the moment. We need to make a plan for next time. You feel like that because yeah, that's not how we treat each other. 

[00:58:56] Alyssa: Yeah, but I think that that is, and and, and they don't see those moments, right?

[00:59:00] Like the people see the kid yelling at us, they see the screaming, and especially with our sensory sensitive humans, where often in order to regulate they need a change of scenery. Where SJ needed to be in his room, in the quiet, in the dark, and eating a snack and chilling and reading books with me. He needed that before he could have these conversations.

[00:59:24] And so. The world 

[00:59:26] Rachel: doesn't often see those. Right. And sometimes you can't change the environment and so you're just stuck. Like he was in the red zone for like an hour and a half and I also entered the red zone. We were just both crying at one point. I, 'cause it's like I, when you know there's a need and you just can't meet it, it's like you just have to ride it and eventually he must have just run out of adrenaline, but eventually like cortisol crashed, right?

[00:59:51] Yeah. Eventually I was able to get him down and get food into him. But that conversation happened hours later in a room that was just us two. We were just chilling and connected. 

[01:00:01] Alyssa: Totally. I feel tempted sometimes in those moments when we're like in the red and I can't make it stop and I want to, and I don't have access to the thing that will make it stop.

[01:00:15] I feel tempted sometimes in those moments to just be like, just stop. We're okay. You're okay. Oh yeah. Like this is. Like I start to get irritated. Mm-hmm. And frustrated because I'm like, I can't do the thing we need to do, so I need you to pull together for a little bit and then we'll do that thing in a little bit.

[01:00:33] Like I can't, I can't access what you need right now. I have felt that too in like the car or things like that where we're, they're driving each other nuts in the car. I'm driving and I can't SJ get you a cool, calm, collected environment right now. Mm-hmm. You have a one-year-old sister who is really just trying to connect and his latest is screaming, there's nothing you can do that will make me connect with you.

[01:01:00] He said that at at 

[01:01:01] Rachel: the beach and I had to really try hard not to laugh in the moment because I just, it's so funny. It's so funny. Yeah. She was, I dunno what she was doing to him and he goes, no matter what you do, I'm not gonna connect with you. He didn't raise his voice or anything. He just looked at her and was like, I'm laying down the law right now, beans, nothing, someone else to connect 

[01:01:23] Alyssa: with.

[01:01:24] Oh my gosh. And so he's like yelling at her in the car that he is never gonna connect with her. And then she's like, okay, I'm getting something from him. She's like, yeah, let's keep it going a hundred percent that when I was being kind to him, I was getting nothing. At least now I'm getting something from him.

[01:01:39] Yeah. Mm-hmm. And. It's those moments where I am just like, I can't give you both what you need right now in this moment and outside of this moment. We can have a conversation, we can make a plan about what we'll do in the car, but for the next 12 minutes. We're just driving and sitting in traffic. Mm-hmm.

[01:02:02] And then Sie will say, why aren't you going? And I'm like, there's a red light. I cannot go. Right. And I am getting heightened. Mm-hmm. Those are the times where I'm like, I need you all to pull it together. Mm-hmm. Because I'm gonna lose my ever loving mind. 

[01:02:14] Rachel: Yeah. Like, we're all trapped here together. Nobody wants to be here less than me.

[01:02:17] Like I want you to stop. Correct. Nobody's having a good time for the record. Nobody is having a good fucking, uh, I know that comes out for me too, where I'm just like, could you guys just for a 10 minute drive, just not make it feel like a prison? Is that possible? Yeah.

[01:02:35] Alyssa: Oh my gosh, it's so real. It's so real. Mm-hmm. Am I like focus in those moments, it's just like, yeah, I'm gonna let them drive each other nuts right now. I'm gonna let him scream at her. I'm gonna let her keep doing annoying stuff to him and I am just gonna focus on not yelling at them. Same. That's my 

[01:02:54] Rachel: whole 

[01:02:55] Alyssa: focus.

[01:02:55] I 

[01:02:55] Rachel: disassociate from whatever they're doing and I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna drive safely and I'm gonna keep my mouth shut. Those are like my two mosts. Same. It's all I can do. Me too. Because if my mouth opens, I'm like, it's not kind. 

[01:03:08] Alyssa: Correct. I'm telling them to stop having feelings and to just like pull it together.

[01:03:13] Yeah. Cut the shit. I'm done. And you have to be who you are. Oh. Is basically like my message. 

[01:03:18] Rachel: The sensory mismatch. So, so Cody and I were actually chatting about this the other day because we went to the beach as a family. No cousins, no friends. And Abel was living his best life and Nora a hundred percent was hating her life, miserable and being so annoying.

[01:03:36] Mm-hmm. And on the flip side of that, most of our outings this summer have been like with friends or cousins, which is like Nora's time to shine. She's thriving and Abel's being Aer. And there was part of me that day that Abel was thriving, boogie boarding, loving his life, and Noro as being like the most annoying person I've ever met.

[01:03:55] I just was like, why does it have to be this way? Like why does it have to be that one of you isn't getting your needs met at 

[01:04:02] Alyssa: all times? 

[01:04:03] Rachel: At 

[01:04:03] Alyssa: all times? It's so annoying. Yeah. We've actually, so throughout the summer in Vermont, here in Burlington, there's this thing kind of down the street from us in our neighborhood called the Get down the South End, get down.

[01:04:15] It's free to go in. And then there's like food trucks, there's a dj, there's drink spots, there's like kid tattoo, like airbrush stuff. There's just like a random smattering of things. And it's awesome for us to like meet up with other families and friends there because everyone can do like their own thing for dinner, but we can all hang out and whatever.

[01:04:36] And it has gotten to the point where it's not enjoyable if he goes mm-hmm. Because he's so overwhelmed and so overstimulated. He's not having a good time. We're not having a good time. And Mila is on the dance floor dancing her, there is no dance floor for the record. She makes a dance floor. She's like living her best life.

[01:04:58] Mm-hmm. She could hang forever living the dream. And so we've done it a couple times this summer where my mother-in-law has come and like had a movie night with him and they get to have like down focused one-on-one time and stay home on a Friday night. And we take Mila. Mm-hmm. And she's just living her best life.

[01:05:19] Yeah. I'm like, this is it, man. Like, we can't, all four of us be together and have everyone's needs met in the same activity 

[01:05:27] Rachel: we can. Or at at least I 

[01:05:28] Alyssa: haven't found the activity. 

[01:05:30] Rachel: I don't think it exists. I'm not trying to be like negative. Yeah. But I, in my experience with Nora and Abel, it doesn't exist. The closest we have found 

[01:05:39] Alyssa: is actually the beach where she will hang in the group and has access to people and he will just go off and do his own thing.

[01:05:48] But we can all be there together. The, obviously the stimulation of the house is its own beast. Mm-hmm. And we're so fortunate that my mothers in-law have a beach cottage across the street, so we can even just like send him over there to get his like downtime needs met. Mm-hmm. But it ends up just at the beach house being way more screen time than he usually has because he's like, I need a break, and I, there isn't like a place to have a break where there aren't other people.

[01:06:20] Rachel: Mm-hmm. Same with us. I mean, Abel's on his iPad a lot when we're in, you see him when we're back at the cottage? Yeah. It, he's on his iPad and I'm just like, whatever. Because whatever, honestly, sometimes screens can be really regulating for him, which like same forage, which goes against the grain and the ideas that we have about screens, but I just let it be what it is.

[01:06:41] Yeah. I mean, same. Could I used a screen at Funtown that day? I can tell you that. Yeah. 

[01:06:48] Alyssa: Sign me up for a screen at Fontan. Oh my gosh. Oh man. Oh, good, good. Okay. Who are we chatting about today? Okay, so this is School Refusal of Eli. Mm. Yeah. Love Gem of an episode. Love Eli. Mm-hmm. Every time we have Eli, it's a gem of an episode.

[01:07:05] She's such a gem of a human. 

[01:07:07] Rachel: Yeah, she is. Uh, I'm coming right up on this. So this is like, so it was great. Just like to listen to her. And I love when she talked about like excavating the problem because I think it can be so tempting to be like, okay, you don't wanna go to school. Too bad. It's a school day.

[01:07:23] This is when we go to school, you know? Yes. And that's what comes up for me, where I'm like, cool that you don't wanna go get in the car. 

[01:07:32] Alyssa: Yeah. That's what we're about to do. Go to school. Right? So buckle up literally. 

[01:07:36] Rachel: But I liked this and like for me, it, this would have to happen outside of like a school morning, just.

[01:07:42] I, that's not reality in this house, but to talk outside of the moment and excavate what is actually going on. Is it about being away from me? Is it about not feeling connected to your teacher? Are you having an issue with your peers to identify that so that then we can put supports in place rather than just being like, well, too bad it's a Monday.

[01:08:01] And on Mondays we go to school, so have a great day. 

[01:08:04] Alyssa: On Wednesdays we wear pink.

[01:08:09] Yeah, no, I, and I think it's really easy to also jump down the road like an anxious road of like, oh my God, what does this mean? What if they never go to school And like s spiral on the other flip side of like, well, if they don't feel safe at school, I'm not gonna send them to school. And like, jump on that other kind of side of the spectrum there.

[01:08:30] And I, okay, I had one, oh my God, I forgot about this. I blocked out my memory. It just came back, um, postpartum with beans. I don't know. She's maybe a month old. And I was not for the most part working at that point, but there was a coaching call that a teacher at Sage's school had requested because we work with, um, his childcare program in our seed cert and their account manager, Ellen was like, Hey, I'm actually gonna be in town that day instead of doing it virtually, because it was right around pickup time anyway.

[01:09:07] She was like, do you wanna just, we can bring Mila and just do it in person, which we don't usually do. And I was like, yeah, have fun. Great, let's do that. And I go in. I'm also undiagnosed postpartum depression at this point, uh, unmedicated for sure. Uh, and I go in to the school and I'm like, there's like a walkway lobby area before you would turn a hall to go down to Sage's classroom.

[01:09:33] And he's two, but like almost three. Oh, this is coming back to me. I hear him like distress crying. And he had been saying that he didn't wanna go to school a lot, but we're like, yeah, this is a new baby. It's transition. Like, of course. And then I hear him distress crying and I'm like, waiting and waiting.

[01:09:55] I'm like, I'm sure I'll hear somebody responding to him. I really liked his teacher. Um, there had been like an assistant teacher change relatively recently there. Um, the new assistant teacher had been there maybe two weeks and I'm not hearing anything. And so I turn to like, look down the hall and I can see him by himself sobbing, like sobbing in a corner.

[01:10:22] And a teacher, this assistant teacher sitting at a table with her back to him saying like, yep, I know. Do you wish mom was here? I know. And I'm like, what? And like everything inside of me was like, this is why he hasn't wanted to come to school. This is what's actually happening behind the scenes at school.

[01:10:42] Like what have we been sending him to? I'm never sending him back here. Like I fully spiraled, actually Ellen later was like, I've never seen this side of you. And I was like, oh yeah, this is very much dysregulated Alyssa. Uh, there was not any regulation insight for me. And I walked into, the assistant director was in another classroom and I love her.

[01:11:05] And I walked in and I said, please help me understand what's happening with my son right now. And she was like, what do you mean? And I was like, he's sobbing in a corner and here's how he's being responded to. And she was like, okay, I'm on it. And like went and I ended up just like popping in, scooping him up and was like.

[01:11:19] We can either do this coaching call with him sitting with me, or we can schedule another time. Mm-hmm. Also, we can chat about his return to school at some point and what needs to happen for that to happen. Mm-hmm. But like fully off the deep end and come to find out, yeah. His school refusal had largely been around this new person who just had some skills to build and he didn't feel emotionally safe with.

[01:11:46] Mm-hmm. Right. But man, my like spiral was fast and hard. I immediately was like, Zach, we need to look for new childcare. I'm never ever sending him back there again. 

[01:11:58] Rachel: Well, I think too, like first of all. Your one month postpartum, right? So all your, all of, all of your biology is like, protect my children, right?

[01:12:10] It's so when you're in that space postpartum chemically, you're like, if you hurt my child, I'll kill you. Primal af to literal mama bear, like I Yeah. Will cause you pain if you harm my child, right? Like, that's what your hormones are saying. Add a little postpartum depression in there. And the fact that like, yeah, real nice cocktail also, like you're there for, you're there in a professional capacity.

[01:12:35] And then to be like derailed by this like very emotionally triggering situation is just like, ah, what is happening? What is happening? A 

[01:12:45] Alyssa: hundred percent. Yeah. And I'm like, I trusted you. And then come to find out, like, yeah, I could still trust them. His lead teacher is awesome. And I just made the request that he's not alone with the assistant teacher who does not yet have the skillset to support him emotionally until she does.

[01:13:02] Mm-hmm. And they were like, okay, he'll always have access 

[01:13:06] Rachel: to a safe person. Yeah. We similarly had to advocate for Abel. Um, during his pre-K year. He, oh, he struggled. Um, he cried so much and not, like, not that they're not, that all cries aren't valid because they're, but it wasn't like a loud wailing, like, I'm not gonna school.

[01:13:30] I don't like this. It was like, he would sit at his table, put his head down, and silently sob. 

[01:13:35] Alyssa: Hmm. 

[01:13:36] Rachel: And it like broke me. So, anyway. One of, I was actually good friends with the teacher's aide that year, and so like we had this system where once the teacher's aide arrived, like I was able to leave and things were pretty chill.

[01:13:52] So we're like a few months into school and the teacher's aide texts me and she's like, Hey, I just want you to know, like his teacher has asked that I don't soothe him anymore because all of the other kids are like not crying at drop off anymore. And she thinks that because I'm soothing Abel, it's holding him back.

[01:14:11] This teacher is wonderful. And she was not really able to attune to my son the way that he needed to be at tune to. Um, and so I had to just have a meeting with the admin and I was like, Hey, he, um, is likely gonna continue to cry. So first of all, I don't want the expectation to be that he doesn't cry. Um, second of all, I do not want regulation withheld.

[01:14:39] To try to force him to bond to somebody that he can't bond to. 

[01:14:43] Alyssa: And just like, if we think about the science of this right now, the idea that we are going to withhold regulation, if you think of yourself as an adult, if you were in distress, you don't feel safe, you have no idea where you are, you don't know the people there, and you feel overwhelmed by it, you're at a new job and it's overwhelming.

[01:15:03] You don't know what you're doing. You feel like you're failing at everything. You don't know anybody, yada, yada. And you are like rioting in a random work closet because you needed to cry, whatever. And people find you and they're like, Hmm, you are not gonna help you here. Just gonna, you take, you do the, you need to stop crying.

[01:15:26] Just everyone else is fine. Yeah. So. 

[01:15:29] Eli: Like what? Yeah. 

[01:15:31] Alyssa: There there's not a world in which you're like, okay, everyone else is fine. I'm gonna stop crying now and be fine. 

[01:15:39] Rachel: Like what? I, similarly to your response, I was like, breathing fire. Like I was just like, yeah, in no world will you remove co-regulation from my child.

[01:15:53] No. Guess 

[01:15:55] Alyssa: what's not the answer that 

[01:15:57] Rachel: like, oh, hey, here's this kid who's so, who's crying all the time, and I want him to stop. Let me take away the thing that's helping him succeed and 

[01:16:05] Alyssa: that will help him feel safe here so that he can do any learning. Correct.

[01:16:13] Oh man. Drives me nuts. I am so stoked for this section, this chapter in big kids, bigger feelings. I actually was recently looking at it 'cause I have a workshop coming up that I'm doing and we're talking about like back to school and school refusal as part of it for families. And I love how we outlined it because we talk about the different routes that might be at play and how to handle each route.

[01:16:40] Yeah. Of like if it is that they are having like friendship, drama or whatever. Like how do you navigate that? What if they are overstimulated in the space? How do you navigate that? And really guiding folks through figuring out what's at the root of it and then where do you go with that. I love how we outlined that.

[01:16:59] Uh, and I'm super stoked to get. Big kids out into the world and folks to be able to dive into that chapter because it's real. And when we don't navigate it, it spirals and we just start to see anxiety spike so aggressively because we reinforce that neural pathway often of like, okay, then you don't have to go to school.

[01:17:19] Or on the flip side, we're just like, you're fine. We're going, but we don't ever address the need that's driving it. And so it doesn't go away. They just sometimes push it down and then start to feel anxious and holding it all in. 

[01:17:33] Rachel: Yeah. I, I love that Eli mentions the importance of like the calm confidence while you're responding to the kid, while you're doing the detective work of figuring out, because there is like a part of me when my kids experience something hard at school that's like, alright, fine, I will stop working, I'll homeschool you.

[01:17:49] You never have to experience hardship again. Right. There's that a hundred percent of the time, part of me. Mm-hmm. And if I let them see more so for one of my kids than the other same. Percent. Um, because that child would actually thrive if I homeschooled him. But, um, yes, the other one would not. But I, if I let them see that thought process of like, maybe I should just keep them home, then it's like they're getting this neural messaging that's like, wait, am I not safe at school?

[01:18:23] Should I be home with mom? Why is mom questioning this? So I have to be really like, aware of my whole vibe when I'm discussing this so that they do feel like not only can they get through it, but I believe and know that like they're gonna get to the other side of whatever this is. 

[01:18:42] Alyssa: Hundred percent yeah.

[01:18:44] That they're capable of doing these hard things and of navigating these situations and. No, I started this off really bashing my parents. Uh, but one thing I'm so grateful for that I got growing up was this exact message. They really made me feel like everything was figureoutable. That even if I didn't know what to do right now, it was figureoutable and that I was capable of figuring it out.

[01:19:17] And it led to some crazy things in my life like. I was homeless in New York City at one point in my college summer, like for two weeks. This seems figureoutable. Yeah. I was like, but I know. Figure it out. And then I lived in an apartment in New York City where a man lived on the couch, like, but I figured it out.

[01:19:35] Had a great summer, it worked. 

[01:19:37] Rachel: Um, but you've brought that skillset into like starting this, this business work. There is no 

[01:19:43] Alyssa: seed without that skillset. Correct. Because I have a master's in early childhood education and I was just like, yeah, but I bet I can figure out how to do a business. Totally. 

[01:19:55] Rachel: Or, or when I'm like, oh, I can't figure this out, so we have to just trash the whole project.

[01:20:00] You're like, Hmm. I think maybe, maybe not. 

[01:20:04] Alyssa: It might be forward. Yeah. I, I love that I got that from them and it was, they're like. That cool, calm confidence. I mean, it also for me, I could have used a little emotional support around stuff, but Totally. I did get the message of, I believe that you can figure this out even when it's hard.

[01:20:27] Rachel: Yeah. I can't remember what episode it was, but one thing that I took from one of our episodes that I've been talking to Nora about specifically is that it's not my goal for her to never feel anxiety. She's been experiencing a lot of anxiety, um mm-hmm. In the last few months. And so something I'm talking to her about is like, it's not the goal to not have anxiety.

[01:20:51] My goal for you is to recognize your anxiety and have skills for tolerating it and tapping into regulation 

[01:20:59] Alyssa: a hundred percent. And then being able to access the things you wanna access without anxiety as a barrier. Right? Correct. That like, if you wanna go and do this thing because you're excited about the hang, that you're not too anxious to actually go and do the thing.

[01:21:12] Yes. Yeah. That's my goal in life for these kids is that they are able to access whatever it is they want. And I think about that first age. When I think about what do I really want for him as a neurodivergent human in a neurotypical world. I want him to have the tools and skills to be able to engage in whatever he wants to engage in, that if he wants to be a part of a sport or a club or an activity, that the way that his nervous system works isn't a barrier to entry for him.

[01:21:50] That he's not like, I would love to do that, but it's gonna be too loud. Mm-hmm. Or it's gonna, that he actually can say like, I'd love to do that, and it's loud, so what am I gonna need? Mm-hmm. So that I can be as resourced as possible. 

[01:22:05] Rachel: And I think that is something that Eli touched on in this episode with excavating the issue and then helping them build tools for whatever the root is.

[01:22:16] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:22:16] Rachel: Mm-hmm. And that goes so far beyond school refusal. It, it could be applied to it's a life skill. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:22:24] Alyssa: Love God. Love you Eli. Eli, I love E you. Thanks E. We love you so much Eli. You are the best. Uh, and if you have not snag me, I have it right over here on the bookshelf. Um, I have, I recently like redid my office situation here.

[01:22:39] I have one of her books here and it's so good raising securely attached kids. We reference it in big kids as well. Uh, and she has a book that came before it too about attachment, just in relationship in general. And she has another book in the works, I believe. Um, just cranking out books over there. You like, dang, raising securely attached kids, just slays.

[01:23:02] It's so good. 10 outta 10, recommend. Uh, and then if you haven't yet snagged big kids, bigger feelings, go snag it. It's out September 16th, wherever books are sold and we have a whole chapter on school refusal. Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voices of your village.com.

[01:23:23] Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at seed Do and dot. So SEW take a screenshot of you tuning in. Share it on the gram and tag seed. Do. And so to let me know your key takeaway, if you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.

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