When Your Nervous System is Overwhelmed by Your Child's Sensory Needs with OT Larissa Geleris: Round Two
00:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village and today is a rebroadcast of an episode with Larissa Geleris and we got to dive into when your nervous system is overwhelmed by your child's sensory needs. I, for one, have this at my household. I have a sensory mismatch with one of my children and my husband has a sensory mismatch with our other child and so we're constantly navigating this in real life. And at the end of this episode, Rach and I came together for a breakdown of what this looks like in real life in our households. I hope this one is hitting you at a good time, y 'all. It's a reminder I think we all need. All right, let's dive in.
00:00:47 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:02:24 Alyssa
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Voices of Your Village. Today, I get to hang out with Larissa Geleris. Larissa, I feel like this is going to be annoying for all parties involved, the Larissa Alyssa situation. So I apologize to everyone in advance for that. But Larissa is an OT, which y 'all know is one of my favorite kinds of humans I guess to hang out with, besides the tiny ones. And Larissa has an Instagram handle called Steady Parents, and our entire team I think follows Steady Parents. We have a list when we're talking about like brainstorming podcast content, who we want to reach out to for guests and stuff like that. And Larissa, you were top of the list. You have like hands down. We want to chat with her and we have 7 million ideas, and how do we just narrow down the idea? But today we get to hang out and chat about sensory mismatch. And I was sharing with Larissa here before we started recording that we did a poll recently and asked folks, what comes up for you when you hear the word sensory? And two things overwhelmingly came up for folks: sensory bins, like a bin of, you know, rice or water or something kids might play with. And the other one was autism. And so we're gonna get maybe down and dirty a little bit at the beginning about what the word sensory really even means so that we can talk about what a sensory mismatch means. Larissa is not just an OT. She also has online courses specializing in identifying and treating sensory processing dysfunction. She's passionate about supporting parents who are experiencing overstimulation, overwhelm and dysregulation. If you don't fall into one of those, who are you? And please reach out. She has written multiple courses, has been a guest on several podcasts and runs an Instagram platform that provides practical and evidence based strategies for the sensory challenges of parenthood. Larissa's dream is for parents to feel confident and steady in their parenting journey. And I dig that dream. Larissa, I'm excited to get to hang with you.
00:04:32 Larissa
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm so, so excited.
00:04:36 Alyssa
Yeah, I'm jazzed, too. And for folks listening too, Larissa is also a parent. She's got two kids and lives it. And I first want to chat about that word sensory, Larissa, and break down what does it actually mean when we are saying sensory, sensory profile, sensory processing? Like what is sensory really mean?
00:04:58 Larissa
Yeah, that is such a great question. And you're right. When you were telling me what it was that parents automatically thought of, I knew you were going to say those two things. I knew you were going to say sensory bins and I knew you were going to say autism. So essentially what sensory is and what my goal really for everyone is to understand what sensory is, is that it is the most foundational system in our body. It starts in the brainstem, which is where heart rate is regulated, which is where breath rate is regulated, which is where sleep and wake cycles are. It's right there next to all the other survival skills. So when you hear sensory, I want you to think survival, foundational. It is the most foundational piece of who we are. And so, OK, great. But what does that mean, really? So we have eight sensory systems. I'm sure everybody already knows the five. There's, you know, vision, touch, smell, taste and--
00:06:00 Alyssa
Sound,
00:06:01 Larissa
Sound.
00:06:01 Alyssa
I know it's hard to recall the five.
00:06:03 Larissa
Every time I do the five, I'm like, wait a minute, what are they? I know the extra three, though, so--
00:06:08 Alyssa
Sure, you got it.
00:06:09 Larissa
There's the five. We learn about them in elementary school, but there are three more. So there's the vestibular system, which is located in our inner ear, and it is our sense of where our head is in space and in relationship to gravity. So is our head tilted to the side? Are we falling forward? Are we falling backward? All of that. So it's our sense of our our movement in space and where our head is in relationship to gravity. So it keeps us upright. It keeps us making sure that we're not falling. And it tells us if we are. And then there's proprioception, which is our body awareness. So that's our muscles and our joints and our understanding of where our body is in space. So that's why you can reach around to the back of your neck and scratch the right spot without seeing it. It's because you can sense where your arm is without looking.
00:07:00 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:07:00 Larissa
And then there's interoception, which is your internal sensations. So it's the feeling of your heart rate, the feeling of hunger or thirst or bowel or bladder pressure, all of that that happens within us that lets us know what's going on. So that is sensory. It's all of those systems, all eight of them getting information from both the environment, so what's happening around us, and also internally what's happening within us, making sense of it. So it all comes into our brainstem. It gets all organized and then gets sent to different parts of our brain to let us know what we're supposed to do about it. So how we make sense of that situation and what do you do? Well, so-
00:07:44 Alyssa
I think that's such a great overview. Yeah, I dig it so much. And I hope that when people are just listening, they're like, oh, OK, so this is me and everyone I know, right? That it's not when we're talking about having a sensory profile for me, I'm like, are you human and alive? Like, great. We're talking about you and we're talking about sensory. And sensory systems, we've all got them. And one of my life goals is for folks to learn about their unique sensory systems and the ones of the humans that are around them, because as you said, like this is foundational. And for me personally, for me as a teacher, for me as as a parent, for me as a partner, like learning how my brain and my body works, it was a game changer for how I showed up in the world.
00:08:35 Larissa
Yes.
00:08:35 Alyssa
And this is what I want to really dive into today, because the way that my brain and body works is different, much different than the way that my son's works. And with this comes challenges. And I'm really jazzed to dive into like what that looks like and how we navigate it. But I think first and foremost is huge that like breakdown of we've all got them. We've all got sensory systems and we can't move into the mismatch part if we don't understand those sensory systems. Now, within those eight, we're all going to be sensitive to some things and seeking other things. Right. So like,
00:09:12 Larissa
Yes
00:09:13 Alyssa
-Let's break this down a little bit. For myself, I can give an example: I am sensitive to sound. Actually, just this morning, a friend of mine was over at our house and we have this like Thomas train. I have a two year old with this Thomas train and some human who hates me gave my son this train that can turn on and it then can like go around the house and makes noise. But when it gets stuck on something, it makes this like sound that is so grating to me like,
00:09:43 Larissa
Oh, I'm getting goosebumps thinking about that.
00:09:46 Alyssa
OK, great. Yup.
00:09:46 Larissa
I know exactly what. Oh, oh my gosh. Yeah.
00:09:49 Alyssa
And there was a morning recently where I hadn't slept well and I like woke up and was already not well resourced. Right? And I'm going through the morning and it was just like one of those mornings. We were at odds with each other and I'm already decently dysregulated and he's going to go to child care soon, and I need that. Right. Like I'm like looking forward to that pause and getting out the door is a whole thing. And in the process of getting out the door, he turned on this train and it is now clicking as the background noise to us trying to get out the door and I snapped. And my like recollection of this experience is just like hearing that clicking and then snapping. And now when I hear it I'm like, oh my gosh, it like makes me want to lose it. So I'm a sound sensitive human and those sounds really add up for me. I'm very aware of them. And I seek touch. I love it. It's so regulating for me. I could have a massage for four days and be like, I want more. I can wear a baby on my body forever. I like light touch. I like deep touch. Like, give me all the touch. I dig it so much. And, this is not how my child operates.
00:11:08 Larissa
No, of course not.
00:11:10 Alyssa
Of course not. Right. And so I'm going to give you a little bit about him and then let's play with this a little from an OT perspective.
00:11:17 Larissa
Yeah.
00:11:18 Alyssa
So he actually is also sound sensitive, but he's tactically sensitive, touch sensitive. So every diaper change, every time we're changing clothes, any time we're putting on sunscreen. And if he's having a hard time, he doesn't want to be touched. If you try to hug him when he is dysregulated, that is further dysregulating for him. And everything inside of me when he's having a hard time wants to hug him because that's what helps me feel calm.
00:11:49 Larissa
Right.
00:11:49 Alyssa
Right? He seeks vestibular input. Just like watching him on a swing sometimes makes me want to throw up, like the amount of vestibular input that he seeks is literally nauseating for me, like I cannot handle. He wants to spin and he wants to swing. So for us, let's break this down. I'm like, what this can look like. I think you refer to it as the goodness of fit.
00:12:19 Larissa
Yes, that is a term that is used.
00:12:22 Alyssa
Yeah. You, you, the general you.
00:12:24 Larissa
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:25 Alyssa
You, you OTs.
00:12:27 Larissa
Yeah. So essentially what goodness of fit is, is how attuned we are to our child's needs and our ability to tolerate their experiences. And so what you're saying is you have this-- when your child is dysregulated, you want to come and give him a hug because that's what you know works. But you also know--
00:12:55 Alyssa
For me
00:12:57 Larissa
Right, it works for you, but it doesn't work for him. And being attuned to that is where this goodness of fit is. And so essentially what we want is to create this awareness and this sense attunement to our child's needs. But the only way to get there is to be in tune with what you need too, and to be able to separate those two experiences and know this is my experience. I, the mom in this situation, really benefit from hugs, from deep pressure, from a light stroke on the arm, whatever it is that you, the mom experience, know that that's what helps you. And being able to take off that lens and put on a different lens for your child. So knowing you two are separate individuals with separate systems. And if you are able to regulate yourself and be clear about that, then you can then do what your child needs for them and be attuned to their needs and tolerate their, like you're saying, when he's spinning, it makes you feel nauseous. You don't have to look, you know, I mean, you can close your eyes. You can kind of turn your head a little bit and look at it, look at him through your peripheral vision. So knowing that separation of this is his experience, this is good for him, what he's doing is necessary for him and what I'm doing is necessary for me. And you can't do that without taking care of you first and prioritizing you. And this is not to shame you for not taking care of yourself, if that's the case, because it often is. But what I want to emphasize is that you, the parent, are the most important therapeutic tool in this dynamic. And so you are the core co -regulator in this experience between the parent and the child. Can't depend on the child to regulate you. That's not fair to them. They're a child. And so, so you know that, you know, take care of you. Because that allows you to pause to then look at the situation as it is and then come in to support your child.
00:15:28 Alyssa
I think the challenge is in the how, right? And like, you know, this as a mom and so like as a sound sensitive human when the freaking clicking is happening or there's a lot of noise, I have found it helpful to have either like-- not like noise canceling headphones, I don't know what they're called, like noise deafening, whatever. They like make they help with the noise situation. Loop earplugs were the ones recommended to me. And we'll shout out free plug for loop. And it, but like that's helpful. Like that's part of, for me, like self -care is how am I nurturing my nervous system so that I can show up for him? This is where I was saying, like understanding my nervous system and my sensory systems was a game changer for me in relationship because then I could know like, all right, yeah, kids are loud, right?
00:16:23 Larissa
They are loud.
00:16:23 Alyssa
And like he lives in my house, right? So he's here all the time. And he, which means it's loud a lot of the time and that I don't, I don't want him to stop being a kid or existing in this space. And so what does it look like to recognize like, all right, the sound's going to add up, it's cumulative and how can I support myself through this? And one of those is like earplugs and others are like, what is regulating for me? What am I seeking and how do I make sure I have some access to that? Properceptive input's regulating for me, touch is regulating for me. And so how do I make sure I'm accessing those things or just like eating breakfast, drinking coffee, having my water in the morning? Right. And for me, that's a boundary setting is what really comes back there of like, mama, come play with me. Mama, come see this. Mama, what? Like those of I know that eating my breakfast is going to mean that I can better show up for him.
00:17:22 Larissa
Totally, totally.
00:17:23 Alyssa
Even if it means he's melting down while eating my breakfast because he wants me to come play with it.
00:17:27 Larissa
Yeah, I had that exact experience yesterday with lunch and it was just-- so my kids are five and two and they're at this stage where the five year old can do pretty much anything on his own and chooses not to. And my two year old can't do much on her own, but she would like to. And so they both then get stuck in this state of like, oh, no, I need help at the same time and it's so fun. And this was happening, I hadn't eaten breakfast that day and it was the mom, mom, mom coming from all directions and then the distress cry, which distress is a signal that is supposed to trigger your nervous system.
00:18:10 Alyssa
Totally.
00:18:11 Larissa
Like you're supposed to react if somebody needs you, that's survival, like you have to. But when it is happening all the time, then it sends you into hyperdrive. But OK, so going back to my experience at lunch, it was this I and I was like, you guys, I need to eat and I just straight up like I need to eat my lunch right now. And then you guys go ahead, do your do your shrieking. I need to fuel myself because I can't help you. The most important thing right now is that I eat. And I think there's so much, which is good, so much talk about boundaries in the especially in the social media space and setting boundaries with others and setting boundaries with in -laws and setting boundaries with friends and all of that. But, yeah, we get to set boundaries with our children. And that means doing the things that take care of you so you can show up. You are not a doormat for your child's every desire. It's... you.. you're not. You're not.
00:19:14 Alyssa
You just can't show up that way. Like I literally cannot-- how I respond to said shrieking depends on whether or not I'm taking care of myself. Right. So like if I do want to show up as a more regulated parent, that means like there's going to be times of dysregulation because also for the record, I've never set a boundary and had him say like, great, can't wait to follow it, mom, love this. Right. So like when I set the boundary, I think that's one thing that like on social media kind of drives me bonkers is this idea that like, oh, yeah, I'm going to like be a gentle parent. I'm going to set this boundary and then I'm going to like get on their level and I'm going to emotion coach him through this and I'm going to feel fine inside and they're going to feel fine inside. It's like, no, he's crying. He's run out of the room. He's throwing something or he's losing it. And inside, I'm now also dysregulated like mirror neurons are real. And so now I'm also dysregulated. Yeah. And this idea that like it's just going to if I say the right words or I do it in the right way that I won't feel the trigger or the dysregulation from it, I, I'm going to call BS on.
00:20:19 Larissa
Yeah.
00:20:19 Alyssa
And so I think like that's part of it is recognizing, yeah, I'm going to set this boundary and he is going to probably be upset about it and that's OK. Yeah.
00:20:31 Larissa
And I think a key with that, because, yes, I agree. And I get that, too, all the time when I talk about feeling touched out and like it's OK to not, to not, to say like, I need my body to be my own right now. Yeah, it's OK. And then without a doubt, someone will say, but then they're going to cry and then I'm going to get overwhelmed by their crying. So isn't it better to just let them climb on me?
00:20:52 Alyssa
Short term or long term?
00:20:54 Larissa
Right. Exactly. And if you are aware of your own triggers, so for me, it is the climbing on me. So I had a concussion a couple of years ago and I still have some visual motor challenges from it. And when my children get right up in my face, my eyes can't follow it. And so that sends me into overstimulation like so quickly if they're just like, you know, right in front of my face, my eyes can't follow it. And so I know that when they get that close to my face, I'm going to get overstimulated. So knowing that means that you get to set the boundary before your max. So you don't have to wait. It's the opposite of what we feel like we should do as parents. We feel like we need to stretch our patience to give our children everything that they want, put our needs aside. But ultimately, we are going to hit our capacity. We're going to snap. And if we set the boundary when we're right before we're about to snap, then their pushback is going to send us into that fight or flight mode. And we then usually we'll be like, OK, OK, OK. You know, and so but if we can say if we can be mindful of little shifts in our body and so you can identify when you're starting to get overstimulated before you hit your max, then you can say, OK, you get one more minute with that Thomas the train toy and then we need a break.
00:22:24 Alyssa
Before I want to chuck it into the ocean.
00:22:26 Larissa
Exactly. Exactly. And that then when they when it has been the minute and then they push back, you are able to tolerate that experience for them as well.
00:22:37 Alyssa
Totally.
00:22:37 Larissa
And that is the key in setting boundaries, in allowing them to push against the boundaries, because that's what they're supposed to do. That's developmentally appropriate for them. And you then are able to tolerate their experience. There's just so much good that comes from that, from setting the boundary before you're about to lose it.
00:22:59 Alyssa
You have more bandwidth, then, for their meltdown. Right. Because I did, we did a post actually on patience versus boundaries because I- I'm not a very patient person. And I like, jokingly, in my household, my husband is remarkably patient. Bless him. And I'm not super patient. And so if I'm relying on patience to get me through, we're all screwed. And so for me, like boundaries are super key that I need to make sure it's that self awareness component of like, all right, I'm noticing, I had to really work on building awareness of, when do I feel like I'm trying to be patient? Because then the narrative that happens in my head is like, I've already been really patient. I'm being a very kind parent. I've already given and given and given on this thing. And you just keep taking and it like adds up for me of like, will it ever be enough? Oh, my gosh, you should be grateful. Right. Like all of these things, if only like you should have seen what I had in my childhood, you should be so grateful for what you got right now. And because they don't know, like I'm relying on patience and I'm giving and I'm giving. It's all this like unspoken thing that's happening beneath the surface. And when I notice that I'm turning to patience in a scenario that now is a trigger for me of like, where do you need a boundary? Because--
00:24:20 Larissa
I love that
00:24:21 Alyssa
The patience isn't going to last very long over here. And so where do I need a boundary? And that like that's something I have to work really hard on and be really mindful of. Otherwise, I can snap. And you're absolutely right when I can catch it early and I can set that boundary earlier, then when that meltdown happens, I have more bandwidth to deal with it than if I've been patient, I've been patient, I've been patient, I've been patient and now I'm pretty dysregulated. And now I try to set the boundary and then there's a meltdown. Then I'm like, screw it, whatever. Like, yeah, you can have the thing.
00:24:57 Larissa
Right. Right.
00:24:58 Alyssa
Because you don't have the patience for it anymore.
00:25:00 Larissa
Yeah. Yeah. Or, or/and I mean, either/both, you run into your room crying and slam the door and then the kids are banging on it. Mom, mom, mom. And you don't want it-- yes, we all have moments where we go hide in our bathroom. I do it.
00:25:19 Alyssa
Hundred percent.
00:25:19 Larissa
Hundred percent. But that should not be a relied upon strategy.
00:25:25 Alyssa
Sure. It shouldn't be the norm.
00:25:26 Larissa
It shouldn't be the norm. And--
00:25:28 Alyssa
Yeah
00:25:29 Larissa
--it's creating this rupture where then you're, you are running away from the situation and your child is trying to wonder what's going on. And that shouldn't be something that you rely on. It is something that you will do for sure. And I want to be clear about that.
00:25:46 Alyssa
I think it sucks for us as the adult, right? Like it sucks to live in that pattern where you're just in this cycle of dysregulation of like I get to this point and I'm a breaking point. I have to take space. To live in that cycle, I mean, even pause on the like kid psychology part of it, just sucks to live like that as the adult. And so like getting out of that spiral is so helpful. And yeah, you're going to enter it sometimes. There was time recently we're driving in the car and I just said, Sage, I am starting to feel really frustrated in my body and I'm not ready to answer that question again. I'm going to take 10 deep breaths and calm my body and I'll let you know if I'm calm enough to talk again yet. Yeah. He still asked that question. He still asked me, what are you doing, mama? What are you doing, mama? What are you doing up there? Like the entire time, it wasn't like I had a trip to the spa in the front seat driving the car.
00:26:41 Larissa
Right.
00:26:41 Alyssa
But those moments are going to happen where I'm like, yeah, I cannot be here for you right now because what I want to do is scream at you at this point because I heard that question 7 ,000 times and have answered 7 ,000 times, and I can't go through this for one more second right now.
00:26:56 Larissa
Right. Right.
00:26:57 Alyssa
And yeah, I think making space for that both end of like it's going to happen sometimes. And if it's our norm, it's a self -care challenge. And we know self -care and self -reg are buddies.
00:27:08 Larissa
Yeah. Best friends and self -compassion.
00:27:11 Alyssa
Totally.
00:27:12 Larissa
The three best friends that anyone could have.
00:27:16 Alyssa
It's so true. And we aren't set up systematically for this here in the States. And we talk a lot about this in Tiny Humans, Big Emotions, because we have in the CEP method five components. One is adult child interactions. The other four parts are about us. And self -care is one of them. And for me, it was really looking at like practical self -care. What does this really look like that nurtures our nervous system? Like loop earplugs for me is part of self -care. I don't have the capacity in my life right now to go for a half hour run every morning. Right. Like that's not accessible to me right now. And so what is?
00:27:54 Larissa
Yeah. Yeah. So. One, like we talked about, boundaries is self -care. Another thing is sleep. And I know that also sounds like something to laugh at when you're a parent, because you can't control the quantity of sleep. I mean, depending on the age of your children, if you have a newborn, of course, you're not going to be sleeping at all. You have a two year old. It's a hit or miss of like, I don't know what I'm if I'm going to be able to sleep through the night or not. My five year old still wakes up through the night sometimes. And and it's just like you don't you don't know what you're going to get. But what you can do is set yourself up for good quality sleep and for an easier transition into sleep for the moments that you can sleep. And we know that poor sleep quality is correlated with decreased pain threshold, which means you experience pain at a higher level, higher sensory sensitivity. And we started this conversation by you saying with the Thomas the Train thing, when when you haven't slept, then that Thomas the Train going into the wall is the ultimate trigger. And so we know that they're related. OK, great. So what do we do? So really making sure that you take the time to transition to sleep because it's not-- it's a shift in your nervous system states going from wake to sleep. You can't just just lay down. My husband can, but I can't. You can't expect to just lay down and fall asleep. It's a transition, especially if you're already in an overstimulated state. You need to take it down. And so wind down time before bed, a dimly lit bathroom while you're brushing your teeth. Anything that you can do to kind of create a little bit of autopilot and create a little bit of safety in this experience, make it a routine so that your nervous system knows that it's coming so that you can better prepare for it and settle into relaxation more quickly. Because, again, you can't always control how much sleep you're going to get, but you can there are things that you can control. And so if you-- sleep is one of the most important factors there.
00:30:04 Alyssa
Yeah, I dig that. And I was thinking as you were chatting about Ellen Vora's The Anatomy of Anxiety, she's been on the podcast before. And in her book, she has a section on sleep and A. how we can improve our sleep quality, but B. the relationship it has to anxiety. Yeah. Huge. Alright. Hit me with some more.
00:30:24 Larissa
Yeah. All right. So another thing is like we've talked about still understanding your triggers and your patterns. So taking a deep dive into what triggers you and when they happen. So if, you know, like you were saying, getting out the door for to take your child to to daycare, you know, that's going to be a trigger. So what can you do to set yourself up so that you can handle that? And so like breakfast, like eating it or for me and for a lot of parents, it's the the getting dinner ready. So that four to seven chaos, just pure chaos. So if you take a few minutes at three thirty or a little bit before that's going to before that chaotic moment is going to hit, then you are coming into that situation with a clearer mind. You are able to handle it. So maybe go to your room for a few minutes before you feel like you need to run to your room. So just go like, OK, or take a step outside and just breathe for 10 seconds. Like I'm not talking a big--
00:31:30 Alyssa
Totally
00:31:31 Larissa
--big, you know, because that's not possible. But taking a few minutes to reset before a potentially triggering situation, share a snack with your kids. Crunchy and chewy foods are my favorite strategies because what they do is they give proprioceptive input into the mouth, and so if you think about-- if you eat a raspberry and you get a seed stuck in your teeth, you can feel it for four days,
00:31:59 Alyssa
Forever, forever,
00:32:00 Larissa
Forever if you don't floss. And so (my husband is a dentist and he's probably like, oh, four days without flossing!) but that is just to show I only bring that up to show you how sensitive those proprioceptive receptors are. They are so sensitive. And so use it to your advantage. Kids do it all the time. They're the ones chewing on their pencils, chewing on their shirts. They know it's a strategy. So use it, too. So at four o 'clock before you start dinner, pull out some carrots and eat as a family, have a snack as a family so that you guys are in this regulated state together and then you're connecting with them. They are not then tapping you at four forty five, five o 'clock. Hey, mom, mom, I'm hungry. I'm hungry. Can I have a snack? Can I? And so if you are able to handle that, you get their tummies filled, you get your tummy filled, take care of yourself before, that can be really key.
00:33:00 Alyssa
I've even found, too, for me, like the transition out of work into pick up for child care. I feel like I often was just like one thing to the next, packing as many things as I can into that precious little time that I have to work and do anything else that might be child free. Right. And I would, I would pack it so full. And I had to literally start putting on my calendar little times, five minute times. There were windows of pausing to do something for me that's regulating. And one of those times is before I pick him up from child care, having five minutes with no stimulation. So I would be like doing things around the house, getting ready, trying to prepare ourselves for success for dinner and listening to a podcast and like still very much in go mode. And now I carve out five minutes, even if I'm going to be late to pick him up. Like, I love you, teachers. I get I get it, I was a child care teacher and I still will choose like I'm going to be a little late because I'm going to be a more regulated parent when I pick him up. If I take these five minutes to literally not have any sounds, no screens and I just have downtime right now, I've been doing I've been stretching because I'm pregnant and that feels really good and helpful. But it kind of has shifted in different seasons. But five minutes and it's been huge for me.
00:34:32 Larissa
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Such it's that is so key. It's so key. And it's like you're saying five minutes. That is not a lot of time.
00:34:41 Alyssa
Right.
00:34:41 Larissa
And if and if you-- the benefit to taking those five minutes means that if you don't do that and then you get to this state where you are so dysregulated, your brain can't think. So you're going to be making mistakes. You're going to be yelling. Your children are going to be crying. You're going to be hiding in the bathroom. That takes way longer than five minutes.
00:35:05 Alyssa
Totally. Well, I think what you're what you're nailing here is like the sensory mismatch that we might have with our kids. It's not their responsibility to manage. It's ours to make sure we are practicing self -care so that we can self -regulate knowing, yeah they're going to be loud. It's going to pull the example we use or the analogy we use in the book is a battery that like, yeah, it is from the moment you unplug it going to start to drain. Totally. And there are certain things that will drain it faster. And my child being louder-- that Thomas friggin train is going to drain it faster. And so I need to recharge it throughout the day. Otherwise it'll get to that like blinking red zone. And so going in knowing like it's our job to recharge throughout the day because the withdrawals, those like pulls from that battery, they're going to happen.
00:36:04 Larissa
Yeah. Yeah. And I think a key point also here is you're saying like the withdrawals will happen. Sometimes you're not going to charge, too. Sometimes you don't-- you don't remember to charge, you just have too much on your plate.
00:36:19 Alyssa
Totally.
00:36:20 Larissa
Whatever it is. And you're going to get to that state of your dysregulation and you're going to yell and your child is going to yell and all of that stuff that we all know so intimately, those moments where you just don't feel like you.
00:36:36 Alyssa
Like when I ripped my child's backpack out of his hand going to child care a few weeks ago? Yeah, those moments?
00:36:42 Larissa
Yeah, exactly. So nobody expects you to be a perfect parent.
00:36:49 Alyssa
No.
00:36:49 Larissa
And not only that, being a perfect parent is not--besides not attainable, should not be a goal, because, if you are constantly like this perfect little like, oh, it's OK, I can do this, and you know, this little fairy godmother, you're never responding in a way that kind of heightens a little bit. You're not teaching your child then that it's that it is OK to tolerate an uncomfortable situation. So you, by going back and repairing after you have done something that you aren't proud of, that repair, that apology, that narration of what just happened, that is the life changing event for the nervous system, not being a perfect parent. And so so I've heard of it as like your get out of jail free card. But also it's so much more than that. Like it is a beautiful, supportive moment. You are teaching your child that when there is a rupture that happens, it's not the end of the relationship. And so if you come in and say you are expanding, then, their window of tolerance for the discomfort in the relationship, and they know that there are going to be fluctuations in experiences and you're going to be with them no matter what. And you are not holding on to to whatever it is that happened. You know, you're there, you're there, you're--that's the secure attachment pieces coming in and saying like, whoa, I was really upset right then. That was not about you. That was all me. And I am so sorry I reacted like that. And I'm going to try to do better. I'm going to try to do things differently. And I love you no matter what. Like that is the that is the life changing event.
00:38:47 Alyssa
Totally. Well and I think when we're talking about like this idea of perfect parent, which also called BS on, but if you say it did whatever in some manner exist, you could attain that, it shows, it models for your kids that dysregulation isn't OK. And so then when they inevitably get dysregulated, as all humans do, then inside, it's real easy to attach shame to say like, shoot, I'm failing because I'm dysregulated. I'm failing because I'm having a hard time. My mom, my dad, my papa, my --they never get to this point. They never have a hard time. And if only I could do X, Y and Z, I could be like them and I could be perfect, too. Right. And that's--
00:39:33 Larissa
And what is wrong with me.
00:39:35 Alyssa
Yeah, exactly. And that's not what I want to model for kids. Not at all. I have I have another sensory mismatch question for you. This is a real life example. So two things came up. One, I I enjoy like I am recharged by being in connection with other humans and in community and like the hang part, right? Like a prolonged, never ending hang with certain humans is like recharging for me. My child and my my husband, both are --they like other people and engaging with them, and it's draining for them. They're like, it is exhausting. So we had like on Friday after work, gone to this like thing here in Burlington and a bunch of people and whatever and hanging out and had like dinner there. And it was fun. Everyone was like it worked for all parties involved. Saturday had like a slower morning, Saturday afternoon, we had friends came over and it came to Sunday and I was like, what do you guys want to do? And Zach's like, can we just have a like slow home day? And I was like, oh, yeah, sure. We could also like so and so asked if we wanted to go over and like do dinner over there. And he was like, can we not? Like I just... I feel like we need to slow down. And I was like, oh, right. And then I started to notice with Sage, like we had a bunch of big behaviors in that Sunday, like morning, and it started to like connect for me. Oh right. These humans are so similar and he's probably feeling what my husband is voicing. Can we just not? Can we have a slow morning? I'm feeling spent from all of the engagement we've had. We see this in the holidays, too, where people are like, oh, my God, I need a vacation from the vacation sort of thing. I'm exhausted after everything being out of whack or engaging with all these humans. And so that part for me, I've had to figure out, like, what does it look like to nurture my nervous system and that desire for in -person connection and engagement and honor the fact that for my husband and my son, that's draining.
00:41:51 Larissa
Yeah. Yeah. So I think recognizing those two key differences and one, not putting judgment or morality on either of them
00:42:03 Alyssa
Totally
00:42:03 Larissa
And also knowing it's OK for both of you to take care of your own needs. So maybe your husband and your son want that special, want that downtime and you are still needing more. You don't have to be together. You can go to your friend's house, and without shame of like, oh, I should be home with my husband and my son. Like you get to do that, too, because that is nurturing for you and what your husband and your son are doing is nurturing for them. So I live close to my parents, which is so, so helpful in terms of having support. But there was this one moment this week where my son, who is more-- he prefers more downtime.
00:42:49 Alyssa
Yeah,
00:42:49 Larissa
He's very similar to me. And my daughter is--I don't know where she came from. She--
00:42:56 Alyssa
Is she mine. Is she my kid?
00:42:58 Larissa
I think she might be yours. She's she looks just like me. Acts nothing like me. And it's so fun. I mean that not sarcastically. I realize that's no, it is. It's so fun. But so the other day I we were at my parents house and my sister was in town and we were all going to go out to dinner. And my son was like, I can't like he had just had a busy day with swim practice. And he was like, I don't want to go to a restaurant. Can we please get takeout? And we're like, no, we're going to go out. It's going to be so fun. And he was like, I can't do it. I'm not going. And he got so upset. And so then I clued into that. And and I realized like this, this poor kid is so tired. It's like Thursday. And so he has had swim practice four days in a row already. And he just needs to go home. And so I was like, you know what, bud? Yeah, like we can go. We'll go home. It's okay. And then my daughter, when she found out we were going home was like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm going to a restaurant. And it was so funny. But she was, I was like, no, you know, we're going to go home. Your brother wants to go home. She was like, no, I want to go to a restaurant. And thankfully, my sister, my parents were there. And they're like, it's fine. Like, we can take her out to a restaurant. And so she got to have her experience of going out with her grandparents and her auntie. And she had this fun, you know, experience at this restaurant. And my son and I got to go home. And we rested. And we made like frozen pizza for dinner and just kind of like very chill. And so both of my children with very different sensory needs got what they needed. And that is also supporting the family. And I think that's a key piece.
00:44:46 Alyssa
So what does it look like when you don't have your grandparents in that scenario?
00:44:50 Larissa
This is what I would do. So it would depend on your on the dynamics. But cluing in with you, the adult first, what do I need? And what if I don't give what each child wants or needs, what would that look like? And which one can I tolerate better?
00:45:10 Alyssa
Yeah, like triage.
00:45:11 Larissa
Yeah, exactly. It's a triage situation. So I, in this case, would probably have been able to handle my daughter's meltdowns over my son's just based on the way that they experience their dysregulation. And so unfortunately for my daughter, that would have meant we just go home. And then I would have spent extra time at home with her doing something exciting. So she would still get a little bit of that. But my son could just sit on the couch and veg. So yes, it's triage, trying to figure out what needs to happen.
00:45:43 Alyssa
I was just thinking like one of my favorite things I did with our preschoolers when I was teaching preschool was talking about the battery so that they could also understand like, where is your battery? And that my battery is pretty empty. I had swim lessons and they're so fun and they empty my battery. And this is like where my battery is. And we used a visual for it. And then for other kids to be able to say like, yeah, my battery is a little bit higher. And I also really wanted to go to the restaurant and like that charges my battery and being able to look at what charges our batteries so that, okay, if we can't go to the restaurant, what else could we do that also charges your battery, right? Like, oh man, your brother's battery is almost empty. And if we go to the restaurant, it'll probably be all the way empty because that drains his battery and it charges yours. And so if we're going to go home so that he can charge his battery at home, what are some things we could do together at home that charge your battery? Let's think about that. And maybe it is, yeah, we're going to play a game. We're going to whatever. But that's, I think, I found it helpful as a preschool teacher to like be able to lay that out there of just the like, what drains your battery? What charges it? And that there are different things that charge them. So if this one activity isn't accessible, what else can we tap into?
00:47:04 Larissa
Right. And it's, I think, also supporting the development of empathy too and realizing like my brother is different than me and I can take care of his needs without losing my own. And that is also key because we don't want one child with it, so for this example, I would never want my daughter to suppress her needs to take care of her brother or the opposite. I would never want my son to take it to suppress his needs to take care of his sister. But there are things you can do to support both of them. And like you said, like we're going to take this is what's going on with brother. This is how we're going to also take care of you because you are also a valid, important person in this dynamic. And we're going to be able to do both, even if it's not what you were expecting.
00:47:58 Alyssa
Yeah, I love it. I love that. Oh, my gosh. I knew when we were coming together that I'd talk to you for seven hours because we even had a hard time picking like what topic I want to chat with you about. So thank you. I want to be respectful of your time here. Is there a place that people can learn more about you, find out about resources and materials you have, follow you?
00:48:24 Larissa
Yeah. So I am on Instagram at SteadyParents. I have two courses that are in line with this topic today. So one of them is called Sensing Your Needs in Parenthood, and it is just about you, the parent. So understanding your sensory needs, what do you need to show up as a parent the way that you want to? And that one is broken down very explicitly because I know that you're an overwhelmed, busy parent. And so the first part of the core piece of it is this six weeks to study, and it's 20 minutes a week for six weeks. That's it. So you, and then there's hours of bonus content. So once you kind of get this, like I call it like swimming lessons for your nervous system because otherwise you feel like you're drowning. And so it's once you kind of get that, like, OK, I'm on my I'm on my life raft. I kind of can float now. Then that's when you can dive in a little bit deeper, and all of that content is there. I also have Parenting with Peace, which is a relationship based guide to understanding your child with their sensory processing needs. So understanding how to care for your child's sensory needs, especially if they have sensory processing disorder, other neurodivergence, then you can bundle them together, too. So those are my two big courses that would really support everything that we're talking about. I also talk about all of this on Instagram, and I offer one on one coaching, which has been so much fun too, just to really get to know you and watch the growth. And, you know, the other day I had I was on a call and she was just she was like, this is life changing. I've been working with I've had all of these symptoms for 10, I think she said 13 years, and nobody has ever put it so clearly and so practically than this. So that has been just the biggest honor and joy. So I'm available in all forms. So short form and long form, I'm here for you and just so excited to be here.
00:50:28 Alyssa
I love it. We'll link all of those in the blog post at voicesofyourvillage .com. If you are like me and you are tuning into this while you do dishes or on the go in some capacity and couldn't jot it down, you can go to voicesofyourvillage .com later and snag those links and connect with Larissa. Larissa, thank you so much.
00:50:47 Larissa
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was such a pleasure.
00:49:34 Alyssa
Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.
00:49:38
[Music]
00:49:45 Alyssa
Oh, I got my nails done last night.
00:49:48 Rachel
You did?
00:49:49 Alyssa
Yeah. And a throwback to teenage Alyssa, I got acrylics, like tips.
00:49:55 Rachel
Okay. Hilarious, because Nora just told me she wants French tips for her birthday.
00:50:00 Alyssa
That's so funny. I love them.
00:50:06 Rachel
They look great.
00:50:07 Alyssa
I love them. I literally haven't had them done since I was a teenager. And Zach was like, what's next? You gotta go in a tanning booth and put like a little heart sticker on you to get that real throwback to Alyssa.
00:50:20 Rachel
Did you ever do the playboy bunny?
00:50:22 Alyssa
Of course I did.
00:50:23 Rachel
Same. Was I 13? Yes.
00:50:26 Alyssa
Yeah. Was it wildly inappropriate? Absolutely.
00:50:29 Rachel
Absolutely.
00:50:31 Alyssa
Yeah, sure did. Sure did. Classy. And it was always in a spot that like, Obviously, no one was seeing.
00:50:40 Rachel
Well, I would hope not. Same. It was like on my, like near my pelvis, like my hip bone.
00:50:48 Alyssa
But like felt so scandalous.
00:50:50 Rachel
So, man, I thought it was so cool. And Aunt Sonia had a tanning bed, so like I tanned after school.
00:50:56 Alyssa
Oh my gosh. Isn't that nuts?
00:50:58 Rachel
Yeah. Also, like now I've had 10 ,000 moles removed, like don't get in a tanning bed.
00:51:04 Rachel
But if you do, put a sticker on. Preferably a Playboy sticker, Playboy bunny sticker on your like pelvis underwear line.
00:51:14 Rachel
Correct.
00:51:16 Alyssa
Yep. Yep. Yep. That is it. But yeah, we went and got nails done, Gabby and I, and I have been wanting to do it for a while. And okay, this is where it all started. Francesca had never had a manicure until a year ago.
00:51:34 Rachel
What?
00:51:35 Alyssa
I know. I know. And so for folks listening, Francesca is my bestie here in Vermont and she'd never had a manicure. And so she was going to get one and she was solo. She was like, I'm just going to do this. I'm going to go. And she comes back and she's like, I am in so far over my head. She like, didn't know any of the like right things to say. And so she ended up -
00:52:00 Rachel
Oh, to answer the questions?
00:52:01 Alyssa
Correct. And also it was like real hard people pleasing tendencies. And so she ends up with a French manicure, French tips. She like wanted just a French manicure, but she ended up with acrylics and a French manicure. And she was like, went from never has had a manicure to French tips,
00:52:23 Rachel
So good.
00:52:24 Alyssa
It was so good. And she now has like an at -home gel kit and is obsessed with manicures and like all in. but I loved her manicure. It looked so cute and I was like, I forgot about French tips.
00:52:41 Rachel
Getting your nails done?
00:52:42 Alyssa
Yeah. And so it led me into it. And then she also, like me, was like a nail like picker, biter, the skin around it, all of it, like I just tear them apart. And it helped her stop because you like can't, you like can't pick with them. It's not like, they're too dull. And so I was like, all right, I'm gonna try it out. So here I am.
00:53:09 Rachel
Love it. Love to see it.
00:53:12 Alyssa
Love to see it. It is hard to open a clementine. I had to bite it, which I hate, just in case you're wondering.
00:53:20 Rachel
Yeah, I never have my hand nails done, my fingernails, because -
00:53:23 Alyssa
Your hand nails?
00:53:27 Rachel
Yeah.
00:53:28 Alyssa
Just your foot nails? Just your foot ones?
00:53:30 Rachel
Correct. Um, like all my friends always have their nails painted, always.
00:53:35 Alyssa
I really like having my nails painted, but I never do it.
00:53:37 Rachel
I love the way that they look, and when my obsessive compulsive things are getting bad, I wash my hands 27 ,000 times an hour, and if I'm not doing that, then I'm outside. So it's just like, I don't have the lifestyles for that. My toes are always done. I hate seeing naked toenails, like it really upsets me, but, um.
00:53:59 Alyssa
On your own feet or on anybody's feet?
00:54:02 Rachel
On any adult, really.
00:54:04 Alyssa
Oh my God, hilarious.
00:54:06 Rachel
Like when I see men's feet in the summer, I'm just like, ugh.
00:54:10 Alyssa
You must hate my feet. I rarely have mine done. I just feel like, well, actually in the summer, I generally do.
00:54:15 Rachel
You never don't have socks on.
00:54:17 Alyssa
That's true, I'm always too cold. That's the thing, is I'm like, usually wearing socks so you don't see my toes, why would I get that?
00:54:22 Rachel
I'm like usually naked at home.
00:54:23 Alyssa
It's true.
00:54:24 Rachel
So like, I, yeah, I rarely have socks on. Cody went back to work today. The doxy's helping. So that's
00:54:35 Alyssa
So probably is a tick -borne illness thing.
00:54:37 Rachel
I mean, it's gotta be. He's been so sick. And it's been like this weird like ebbing and flowing where like he'll get like a burst of energy for a couple hours and feel like, all right, I'm getting better. And then the night before last, he was up like all night, like sweating and having chills and like in pain and stuff. And he like never goes to the doctor. So when he woke me up yesterday and was like, I gotta go to the doctor. I was like, okay, I'm probably gonna drive ya.
00:55:02 Alyssa
Yeah, that feels serious. Yeah, it's interesting, because when we were there, he was, it was like, he just got hit with a ton of bricks.
00:55:08 Rachel
I know, and then he took Motrin.
00:55:09 Alyssa
Also, I feel so bad that we had him like move stuff around like furniture and whatever.
00:55:15 Rachel
I don't feel bad about that. He could have said no. That's an area of growth for him.
00:55:19 Alyssa
Yeah, sure. And then he like rode my child around on a four -wheeler.
00:55:25 Rachel
Well, if he had Motrin on board, like he was kind of functional. So we were like, okay, maybe this is just like a virus. Like, I don't know.
00:55:32 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:55:32 Rachel
Anyway. So yesterday, only his CBC is back, like the Lyme labs take a while and they're not always accurate. Sure. He keeps being like, can you check my labs? Can you check my labs? I'm like, here's the thing. Your tick labs aren't back yet and they may come back negative. Like this is how Lyme is. But the fact that the Doxy is helping him, I'm like, great, finish this course of Doxy I'll have him follow up with our PCP who is Lyme literate and go from there.
00:56:03 Alyssa
And for people who are tuning in, Rachel is my doctor and we literally, I reach out to Rachel for every single medical question.
00:56:13 Rachel
Just to preface this, I have zero medical training.
00:56:17 Alyssa
Zach is convinced that if you took the test for med school, you would be able to test out.
00:56:24 Rachel
I can't--
00:56:25 Alyssa
It's wild.
00:56:26 Alyssa
I'm bad at math, so that's a big problem if you're going to be a doctor. That's a story you're telling yourself that we can work on, but I just like, literally everything that comes up, I'm like, Rach, read my, when you said he wants you to read his lab, I did the same thing. I'm like, Rach, can you read this lab? What does this mean? Before I even go to my doctor, who I really like.
00:56:47 Rachel
Oh, sure.
00:56:49 Alyssa
I just happen to talk to Dr. Rach first, or like, what do you think this is, Rach?
00:56:53 Rachel
Yeah, well, I like to like -
00:56:55 Alyssa
You love research.
00:56:56 Rachel
Yeah, I like to research, I like to problem solve. I'm like, what picture are these puzzle pieces painting here?
00:57:03 Alyssa
But you also like read so much research that you know what the puzzle pieces might paint the picture of, right?
00:57:10 Rachel
Sure.
00:57:11 Alyssa
I find this, a teacher the other day was like, listen, I get the sensory system stuff, But when I just watch this kid, I don't know what I'm really looking for. And I was like, oh, that makes sense. At this point, I can watch a kid move and I'm like, oh, when they do this, they're getting some vestibular. When they do this, they're getting perperceptive. I wonder if they're doing this thing because they're seeking more perperceptive input, whatever. Right. I can see it differently at this point. And that's you. Like you can look at the data and the labs and the whatever, or all the pieces of the puzzle, and you know what you're looking for, or what's possible. I don't have that.
00:57:53 Rachel
Well, you have it for some other stuff.
00:57:56 Alyssa
That's true.
00:57:57 Rachel
Like your job, so that's good.
00:57:59 Alyssa
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but thanks for being my doctor. You're welcome. Which, by the way, I will reach out, oh, we can chat about this off -air, because it's a little too, mm, for on -air, but I have another medical thing I'm gonna reach out to you about
00:58:13 Rachel
Now I'm curious.
00:58:15 Alyssa
Fun stuff happening over here I literally texted my midwives from a year ago yesterday and we're like, so this is happening and oh, I don't know where to turn
00:58:25 Rachel
Yeah
00:58:26 Alyssa
Who's the person I'm supposed to ask about this at this point? So it's fun.
00:58:32 Rachel
Yeah. All right. I'm curious about it. Text me later
00:58:34 Alyssa
I will. Gabby was like, uh, I just think that they need to talk so much more about all these other things that happen around having kids because watching you like grow a baby, birth a baby, and then go through a year postpartum is nuts.
00:58:53 Rachel
And it really is.
00:58:54 Alyssa
Totally, totally. Yeah. Yep, it's nuts. Mila's so fun right now. Like just this morning, she has like new words. She is doing on, she'll say on. She's pointing to her ear when we say like, oh, did you hear that? She'll point to her ear, and then she started doing waddle, waddle, waddle for a penguin, which is what I told her a penguin says. Waddle, waddle, waddle. It's so cute. Oh, I love this stage.
00:59:26 Rachel
That's adorable. You're getting into the best year ever. You're right on the cusp of it.
00:59:30 Alyssa
Oh, it's so fun.
00:59:30 Rachel
Yep, you are. One to two, baby.
00:59:32 Alyssa
I love it. I love it. Give me all the language development and emotional development. Oh, here for it.
00:59:38 Rachel
It's so fun. And what's so fun about it is everything's still so cute.
00:59:43 Alyssa
So cute. Exactly. And every day there's just newness and new connections she's making. And she's very into like she'll go towards something that she knows she's not supposed to do, like an outlet or whatever. And she'll pause and she'll shake her head no, but then she keeps going. She's like, I know I'm not supposed to, but like, ooh, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta.
01:00:05 Rachel
So good.
01:00:07 Alyssa
So classic. Oh, man. It's like a perfect illustration of lack of self -control and impulse control. She's like, okay, I know I'm not supposed to do this and I literally cannot stop myself from doing this.
01:00:20 Rachel
Yeah. It's so, so real.
01:00:22 Alyssa
Who are we chatting about today?
01:00:24 Rachel
Okay. We are chatting when your nervous system is overwhelmed by your kids' sensory needs.
01:00:32 Alyssa
Ah, yeah. Like a mismatch.
01:00:34 Rachel
Yeah. And this is Larissa Geleris.
01:00:37 Alyssa
Ah, yes.
01:00:38 Rachel
And I feel like, is there ever a time where you don't have a sensory mismatch in your family in some capacity? Because sensory profiles are so multifaceted, I feel like this is real and applicable for every human.
01:00:57 Alyssa
Yeah, I just think it's like more mismatchy sometimes than not, right? Like I think of, like for me, I have very similar sensory profile to Mila. And so like when she wants to like climb all over me and talk and engage and connect and like can't stop touching, whatever, I'm fine with it. It doesn't, for the most part, drive me nuts. When she's loud, it does, like it's for me, I'm sound sensitive. And so like that adds up, but I look at like Zach and he is such a loving, kind parent, and she is way more challenging for him because his sensory profile is similar to Sagey's. And so she is like climbing all over him, wants to touch all the time, wants to like chat and hang out and engage. He is fried by it.
01:01:51 Rachel
Yeah.
01:01:52 Alyssa
As a sensory sensitive human, to be living with a sensory seeking child, it is definitely a mismatch for them. Whereas like Sagey's sensory sensitive and I'm sensory seeking, and that is a mismatch, but it's almost easier to navigate because I can seek outside of him.
01:02:12 Rachel
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think in our family, the biggest challenge it currently, I mean, my kids are a sensory mismatch, obviously.
01:02:23 Alyssa
Mine too.
01:02:23 Rachel
But in terms of my parenting, and this has actually been an issue her whole life, I get overwhelmed by a lot of noise or repetitive questions, and Nora loves conversation and she loves to talk. Literally she'll get in the car, the other day she got in the car after basketball practice, So she had already done a full day at school. And then she had done basketball practice. And she was like, can I play a game on your phone? And I was like, no, we're not going to use screens right now. And she's like, OK, well, then can you just talk to me?
01:03:01 Alyssa
And you're like, here's my phone.
01:03:07 Rachel
You know, and there's this push pull for me, because it's like, all right, I haven't connected with her since this morning. She's been at school all day. But also, I was just in a gym for an hour and a half during basketball practice. And I was just hoping to listen to music on the drive home.
01:03:22 Alyssa
Yeah, that's Zach. Literally the other morning, I had brought Mila into our bed to nurse her because she was like chatting, but I wanted her to nurse to start the day so that I could keep sleeping. And I didn't want her to wake up Sagey and she shares a wall with him and whatever. And so I brought her into our room. She's nursing and like chatting, whatever. And then Zach usually takes her and I get to keep sleeping. And so he goes to, I was like, I tap him, like, I'm done nursing, you can take her. No words to her, no like, good morning, Mila, or like, come on, let's go downstairs. He just picks her up and pulls her away from me in the dark and she loses it. She's like, what is happening? And I, later he was like talking about how she's losing it and whatever. And I was like, well, honestly, if you just like pulled me away from my mom in the dark and said nothing, I would probably yell too. In fact, I'm glad she's yelling about that. I think that that makes sense. And he was like, okay, but hear me out. What if I don't want to talk for the first hour of my day? And I was like, yeah, bud, welcome to parenthood.
01:04:41 Rachel
I know. It's so one thing that I'm really grateful for is like Cody is at his best in the morning. He's like
01:04:49 Alyssa
Cannot relate.
01:04:49 Rachel
I can't relate at all I am my absolute worst self in the morning and my kids with I'm like, I hate this whole situation I don't want to talk. I don't want to be touched. Where's your dad. Um, so Cody is incredible in the morning and he does the whole morning routine and I get a burst of energy at 5 or 6 p .m. where I'm like, okay, it's third shift. This is my burst to connect, prep for tomorrow, have a connected bedtime routine, get these kids to sleep. I'm so grateful that I have him for the mornings because I am a beast in the morning. I don't want to. I just don't want to. For years, I had to.
01:05:38 Alyssa
I feel like I'm more Cody in this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I'm more Cody in this, where like, honestly, it really depends on sleep for me. If I have had enough sleep, like if I've been up all night with a kid, then I am not a kind human. But I'm definitely morning over night. Like I hit my capacity and then I'm like, done. I don't want a parent. If she wakes up, like in that first stretch of the night, I'm annoyed. I'm like, nope, I am done.
01:06:12 Rachel
Yeah, if he's not around, if he's gone traveling and I know that I'm gonna be doing morning parenting, I can do it and I can be kind and connected and whatever. But when I know that he's there and he's an option and that he likes morning time, I'm like, go find dad.
01:06:29 Alyssa
I'm not your parent right now.
01:06:30 Rachel
I'm not available, just not available. And then they know that at nighttime, if things are getting wild, dad's not your person. and he does not have the capacity for that.
01:06:43 Alyssa
Yeah, that's so nice. That's so nice. Yeah, I feel like I, right now, am the like, I'm primarily waking up overnight to nurse. And so I sleep in, but Zach's dream would be that he doesn't have to talk or touch anybody or whatever for the first truly hour in his day. And that's Sagey's dream too. You heard, I mean, Sagey told Abel. I really like quietness in the morning. And the two of them, they would love to just coexist with humans with no noise and nobody talking to them and just doing their own thing. And Mila and I wake up and we're like, hey, good morning. How are you? How was your night? And I've learned I can't do that with the boys in my house. It's kind of nice to have Mila to do that with now.
01:07:32 Rachel
Totally. Totally. And I think that there are benefits to—obviously, I wish that Nora and I had more sensory similarities because I find her harder to connect with a lot of the time. But when Abel was a baby and he wanted to touch me all the time, I was like, wow, this is really intense. But now that he is older and he can meet some of his proprioceptive needs independently, I love that all it takes for me to fill his cup is to be like, hey, buddy, do you want to sit on the couch and watch something together? And he's like, yes, this is the best day of my life. And in order for Noni to feel connected, I need to like, have a conversation with her where like, she's asking questions, and I'm pretty much giving a dissertation on whatever the questions are. And anything less than that is not acceptable.
01:08:22 Alyssa
So Beans.
01:08:23 Rachel
Yeah. And that's like, what fills her cup. And she just wants to talk or she wants me to watch her do gymnastics or explain. She's really into these super in -depth explanations of stuff that really could be explained in one sentence. And they start with like, okay, so. And then I just know what's coming, and I'm like, ah, this is gonna overwhelm me.
01:08:46 Alyssa
Can we just chat GPT this into a sentence?
01:08:50 Rachel
Legit, so my biggest trigger with this is if her and Abel have a conflict, I can't really trust Abel right now to tell me objectively what happened, like it's always been hyperbole for him, like, Sissy's he's never nice to me she always does this, yadda yadda yadda. So I ask Nora, who tends to give a pretty good and fair assessment, but now it's like, I just want to know, did you hit him? Did you get frustrated? Did he fall? Just give me the quick and dirty—
01:09:19 Alyssa
TLDR here. What happened?
01:09:21 Rachel
Aand she'll be like, well, it was 4:57 PM and I was wearing slippers and Abel was eating a carrot stick and we were climbing onto the trampoline. And it's just like, Aghh!
01:09:31 Alyssa
I'm dead. I was wearing slippers.
01:09:38 Rachel
But it's literally like, I should be like, I noticed I had a hangnail. Like that's not relevant. Please help me. Why is he crying? Why are you fighting? Like, I don't care about your hangnail, here's a band -aid, you know, it's just like... Because I'm not just like sitting there waiting to referee, right? I'm like, washing lunchboxes and there's something hot on the stove and like the oven timer's going off and the dog's barking and like, Abel's asking me where his tooth is that he lost a couple weeks ago and then immediately physically lost and I'm like, I don't know. I don't know, and why are you telling me what shoes you're wearing? I just want to know why he's crying.
01:10:21 Alyssa
So real, it's so real. I find myself doing that to my husband because but for a different reason, not that he'll like it's that and Sage does this too. And I have to really figure out some strategies for it that I do not yet have where they are like slower processors than I am, right? Like I, and I'm also like, I can process information pretty quickly. I'm an auditory processor. So I'm like, go, go, go, let's chat through it. Okay, done, next. And they take seven million years to like tell me a story. They're like, okay. And they'll give me background info and Sage, he'll do it too. They're giving me so much info that I'm like, I do not need this. And same thing. I'm like, yeah, I'm literally walking upstairs to nurse Mila down for a nap. Give it to me in a sentence.
01:11:19 Rachel
I don't have time for this.
01:11:21 Alyssa
I don't have time. My face, I can feel it being bratty and shifting, and I will say something like, can you tell me fast or are we doing this later? In that tone. I'm like, I know I'm being a brat. I know it. I have not yet built strategies for what else to
01:11:41 Rachel
It doesn't have to be that way. Like, it truly, I don't need -
01:11:46 Alyssa
I'm like, don't come to me until you have the one sentence or the two sentences.
01:11:51 Rachel
Legit. Like, I don't need that person's social security number. Okay, I'm just trying to get like an assessment of the situation.
01:11:58 Alyssa
You know what I think is for both the boys in my household is that they wanna justify why they did what they did or why they're doing what they're doing. So they give me a whole bunch of background info. Like, when we were early on in dating, we had like no money. I was teaching preschool, making $30 ,000 a year. We're living in New York City. Zach had a part -time job at a furniture store. We had no money. Zach wanted to buy a cold brew filter thing, system thing, and he sent me this very long email all about basically the why behind it and how much we spend on coffee right now and blah, blah, blah, and the whole breakdown. and it gets down to it and it's like $35 and it was this full explanation.
01:12:46 Rachel
Also, why an email? I'm confused.
01:12:48 Alyssa
Also, because it was too long for a text, right? It, like, included, like, so much stuff. And, like, the numbers behind it all and blah, blah, blah. And it would pay for itself in this amount of time with these many iced coffees saved and yada, yada. And I was like, okay, listen. All I needed from you was like, hey, can we get this cold brew system? It's 35 bucks. Happy to share more about it if you want to.
01:13:14 Rachel
It will eventually save us money.
01:13:16 Alyssa
Correct.
01:13:17 Rachel
But you know what? Zach and Sage are incredibly thoughtful and intentional. And I think a side effect of being that thoughtful is that you're taking a hot minute to really think about the details here.
01:13:30 Alyssa
And I love it in so many aspects of our life. And sometimes I hate it so much.
01:13:39 Rachel
Yeah, so this is like kind of in the same vein, but when Cody is taking information in, he needs a minute. And like he will just like sit there in silence while he's taking it in.
01:13:52 Alyssa
I hate it. I hate it.
01:13:54 Rachel
I'm like, do you hear me? Can you acknowledge? And even just saying like, I need a minute to think about this.
01:14:01 Alyssa
Yep. that works.
01:14:03 Rachel
Feeling like he's ignoring me, and I've been able to reign this in over the years, but feeling like he's ignoring me is like my number one trigger, and I will get so bratty, is a good word for it. I'm just like, hey, ignoring me right now, not a smart choice. And I'll literally say it just like that, like such a brat, such a know -it -all, you know?
01:14:26 Alyssa
Not a smart choice. Buckle up for what's to come, my friend.
01:14:29 Rachel
Basically, because I'm like, you're about to see a side of me that I know you don't like. So do you want to answer me or do you want to die?
01:14:37 Rachel
What's fun, because Zach does this exact same thing, and I, at the very beginning of our relationship would get super bratty and what I would do is just start to ask sassy questions like, how old are you? When's your birthday? Blah, blah, blah. Do you know those answers?
01:14:50 Alyssa
You're such a brat.
01:14:52 Rachel
So annoying. That was like in my early 20s. So now I don't do that, but I still, inside, I'm like, also because there have been times where I say something, he doesn't respond. I think he's heard it and clocked it, and then later he's like, oh, I didn't, you didn't tell me that or I didn't hear that. I'm like, no, I did. You were just silent. And so there's a part of me that's like, are you taking this in? Are we on the same page? I need acknowledgement. But so I am just like you in this, drives me absolutely nuts, and he like needs time think about it. And Mila's like me. And so what's been kind of funny to witness is that like, I have built adult skills now to not be like, when's your birthday? How old are you? Whatever. And just be bratty and annoying. And she has not built any of these skills yet. And so when he, when she's like trying to get his attention, and she's saying something to him over and over, and he's not acknowledging her, like, oh, you found the dog. Yep. I heard you saying, arf arf, you found the dog. If there's no acknowledgement, she will then just scream in your face.
01:15:58 Rachel
Yeah. She's like, I'm here.
01:16:00 Alyssa
Can you hear me?
01:16:01 Rachel
Yeah.
01:16:01 Alyssa
And I was like, Mila, I've never related to anything more than you just screaming in his face because he's not acknowledging you.
01:16:11 Rachel
Yeah. This was actually something. So when Cody and I were in marital therapy, this was something that came up and I was so like, felt like my anger was so righteous about this.
01:16:23 Alyssa
Totally.
01:16:24 Rachel
And our therapist was like, yeah, it seems like Cody's tried to communicate to you that like he needs a couple of minutes to take. Cause I would just be like, it was an anxiety response, right? I'm like, we better fix this right now. Like you better answer me right now, you know? And it's like, gotta reel that in, gotta respect that he needs space to process. But one thing that I need is just that acknowledgment piece of, I heard you, and I'm coming back to this. And I also see it with my daughter. She's like, dad, daddy, dad, daddy, dad, do you hear me, dad, dad, dad, dad. And I will say, dad heard you. He's still trying to come up with his answer. But yeah, it's so real. She's like, are you going to acknowledge me? Because I'm going to keep saying your name until you do.
01:17:13 Alyssa
I will say sometimes it's really hard to have a conversation about this when it's a one -way conversation.
01:17:19 Rachel
Yeah. You got to say something. Say anything.
01:17:22 Alyssa
Anything. Anything.
01:17:25 Rachel
Yeah. This has definitely been an area of growth for me, and I feel like now that I know ... I also didn't know about sensory systems early on in our marriage, so I wasn't like, oh, this is how his nervous system processes information. I was like, oh, he's ignoring me. Great. Awesome.
01:17:41 Alyssa
100%. 100%. But I think what I, bring it back to this episode real quick, what I have truly like gotten from these conversations around like sensory mismatches is that the only thing I can control is me. And so I need to notice like what's coming up for me and be able to proactively support my nervous system so that I can show up for them. I'm like, as a sound sensitive human, the only thing I've asked for for Christmas this year are Loop earplugs. That's it. I was like, I just, because I know in order to love all of you in my house the best that I can love you, I need to hear a little less of you. I just need to, and Mila's gonna be loud. That's gonna happen. Sage is gonna like pretend to be a frigging siren all over my house all the time. And in order to not murder somebody and to continue to love them, I just need to hear a little less of it. And so it's really, for me, been like, what is in my control?
01:18:52 Rachel
Yeah.
01:18:55 Alyssa
Man.
01:18:56 Rachel
It's a tough one.
01:18:57 Alyssa
It's a tough one. Thanks for being there for me to text when I want to murder everybody.
01:19:03 Rachel
You're so welcome.
01:19:05 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
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