Helping “Livewire” Babies Sleep with Macall Gordon
00:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I get to hang out with Macall Gordon to talk about helping "livewire" babies sleep. Macall has a master's degree in applied psychology with a research -based specialization in infant mental health, sleep advice, and parenting culture. She also has a BS in human biology from Stanford University. She's a senior lecturer in the graduate counseling psychology program at Antioch University. She has conducted and presented her own research on temperament, sleep, and parenting advice at infinite child development conferences around the world. She has been a featured speaker at national sleep conferences and has led webinar -based advanced training for sleep coaches, mental health providers, and others on the impact of temperament on sleep. She is a certified gentle sleep coach trained by Kim West and a featured provider on the women's telehealth platform, Maven Clinic. She comes to this work because she had two sensitive, alert, intense children, and she didn't sleep for 18 years. Her new book, Why Won't You Sleep? A Game -Changing Approach for Exhausted Parents of Non -Stop, Super Alert, Big Feeling Kids is out November 19th. Snag that bad boy, y 'all. Sleep is so real. It was so nice to chat with Macall, and I am in it with a three -and -a -half -year -old and a 10 and a half month old that are just so different. And Rach and I also go deep into that in the breakdown and talking about what this looks like in real life. All right, folks, let's dive in.
00:01:38 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:01:59 Alyssa
I'm excited to dive into this with you today.
00:02:02 Macall
Yeah, because it really, you know, it's not just talking about sleep, which is, you know, huge topic, of course, but sleep with kiddos who have these big feelings, very sensitive, very persistent. It's a whole different ballgame. And nobody's talking about, there really nobody's talking about. It's shocking to me because to me it's everything.
00:02:25 Alyssa
Oh my gosh, exhausting.
00:02:27 Macall
Probably, yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, I work on a telehealth platform. So I get, I mean, I've had thousands of parents now of all kinds, right? All kinds of parents. And I would easily say probably 95 % of them have one of these kids. Because--
00:02:47 Alyssa
sure
00:02:47 Macall
If you don't, other stuff work. They're coming to me because they're like I've tried all the stuff the books say and it doesn't work and I'm like, yeah. Let me tell you something about your kid, right?
00:03:00 Alyssa
Yeah, a hundred percent. So yeah, tell me about these kids. I birthed one. I have one.
00:03:12 Macall
I had two and like they were different differently intense and I call them sort of innies and outies, right? So one very extroverted one very introverted, but they both come back to the same level of sensitivity and intensity, right. It just goes in slightly different directions. So yeah, I had it also comin' and goin'. Yeah I say that temperaments the dividing line between kids who sleep well and easily and those who don't. Every parent that I talk to with one of these kids says, yeah, my sister's baby, who's the same age, is already sleeping through the night. And she said it's because she, X, Y, and Z. I'm like, it has nothing to do with what, nothing to do with what she did. It's that kiddo is wired for sleep, and your kiddo is not. And if we think about what it takes to fall asleep, it's all about sensory processing, mental activity. It's all about that. So any adult that can't sleep, we know why. I use a red -eye flight analogy. I'm like, if you're ever on a red -eye, look around and you'll tell who are the people who are wired to sleep and those who aren't. People who are wired to sleep go like this and they're like out, right? I need an eye mask and a blanket and a special pillow and a foot sling and probably some kind of medication and I still can't.
00:04:44 Alyssa
Sure, some white noise in my headphones.
00:04:47 Macall
Yeah, it doesn't work. I don't think I've ever slept on an airplane. And that's the same way with kids. So in order to fall asleep, number one, you have to get the memo from your body that you're tired.
00:04:58 Alyssa
Yeah,
00:04:59 Macall
Doesn't happen with these kids. You have to be willing to listen to that memo and you have to be able to turn your attention toward it, like away from the world and toward that feeling of being sleepy. Also doesn't happen. Then you have to be able to tune everything out in order to fall asleep. Again, same thing. Doesn't happen. If you are just thinner skinned, you're gonna have problems with every piece of that. And these kids, in addition to kind of having that thin skin, often have this really active, alert, engaged brain. So they don't want to do any of that. They want to be engaging with you, engaging with the world, so they have no motivation to go to sleep. I usually say it's just like they think sleep is a waste of time, especially naps. Naps are totally a waste of time. They don't get those at all. They're like, what? Stop? And what? Go to sleep? So they have problems with every step of sleep, every piece of sleep. And they'll fight you harder, and parents are just like, okay, I tried with the books, and the book said it would be 30 minutes of crying over three days and then it would all be over. Well, number one, that's just a lie. And number two, it doesn't, it just doesn't go that way with these intense kids, you know, and nobody tells you about it.
00:06:28 Alyssa
For sure. Well, I was thinking of my two humans as you were describing this. And I have one kiddo who is what we would classify as sensory sensitive, I say that like he's so good at noticing details. He knows how clothes feel, he knows if something in his environment's been moved, he can tell you if there's a smell in the room, he knows the texture of every food, right? Like he can hear a lawnmower from three houses down and he's like, mama what's that noise? And I don't hear it yet. And he notices the details. And I think it's such a rad superpower of his. And also it can be overwhelming and all -consuming sometimes. And if he walks into a birthday party with 20 kids, there's a lot of details there that are going to overwhelm his nervous system. So in terms of sleep, like right out the gates. Just like he was a kid who needed to be in a dark room with white noise, as much as possible trying to shut down the stimuli access around him because he would notice, oh, there's something moving over there, or, oh, I heard that sound of a truck driving by. And he still to this day, like, needs a specific environment to fall asleep, to stay asleep. But then once he's asleep, as long as he's in that environment, he slays. Like, he can sync cycles, he stays asleep, he actually he falls asleep pretty easily in that environment, if the environment is right for him. My daughter, on the other hand, can fall asleep in any environment. Not a sensory -sensitive human. But she is here to party and she loves tactile input and proprioceptive input. So he as a baby, it's so funny, we have pictures of him as a newborn where he's pushing off of you. Like, I know you have to hold me so I stay alive, but like, can we not touch? And she would crawl inside me again if she could. Like, she wants to co -sleep and he's like, get out of here. He never wanted to co -sleep ever.
00:08:35 Macall
Wow, yeah.
00:08:35 Alyssa
Always loved his own space. And she just like loves to touch and whatnot. So just like very different humans, but both different sleep challenges. His is like the environment, once the environment said he's good. Hers, she can fall asleep anywhere, but in order to continue to sync cycles, she wants to have that proprioceptive input and touch. And sometimes she can get it from like a stuffed animal or a lovey. Sometimes she's like, no, I wanna be touching a body. She'll even just like reach out and hold my finger and then just like fall back asleep. And I'm curious to kind of break this down. She also, he never screamed as a baby. He would just be like, okay, like he would stay awake. He wouldn't fall asleep, but he would just kind of check out. He goes into shutdown mode more. She is what we call a lion where she will let you know I'm awake. I have a need
00:09:31 Macall
She is an Outie
00:09:34 Alyssa
She is an outie to a T. Yeah, and so it's been interesting. Yeah, just like navigating her sleep needs Versus a hit where she's like, I'm awake and I want you to do something about it and she'll like yeah
00:09:49 Macall
Yeah, yeah, is she the three -year -old?
00:09:52 Alyssa
Mm -hmm. She's the nine -month -old.
00:09:55 Macall
Oh Interesting. Yeah, cuz I get in my practice. I get babies and three -year -olds
00:10:03 Alyssa
Yeah, of course.
00:10:04 Macall
Three is a massive age massive age. That's interesting. Yeah, the other thing that about these kids is they're really addicted in a way or they're very attuned to patterns.
00:10:19 Alyssa
Yeah
00:10:20 Macall
They also know what patterns they like which you know, bless their hearts. It's great. But we do have to be that's the hard part of this is you parents of these kids have to be more on point and ahead of the game than any other parent, I mean these kids really cause their parents to step it up with their parenting. These kids, they they said they do get higher level of parenting skill because they kind of demand it right?
00:10:51 Alyssa
Yeah,
00:10:51 Macall
And they're so flippin’ smart, you you just have to be you have to be ahead of the game so that you don't start something that then you then you're committed to right? So we really with these kids look at patterns and we really say, okay, what's for example, what's like if it's-- so funny I in my head I had that she was a three -year -old. Um, she probably is honestly in her head a three -year -old. That you know, we say well what's happening at bedtime and parents will say for example, not you other person say, Oh, well, she goes into bed great and then she just holds my finger for like, you know, 30 seconds and then she falls asleep and we're always like Aha, that's it. Right? Like you can't like you cannot have a little bit of wiggle room. You cannot have a little bit of inconsistency because these kids clock it. They see it and they notice it really
00:11:48 Alyssa
They rely on it to fall back to sleep
00:11:51 Macall
Yeah, right and they hold you to it to that. That's the other thing is they have a really good--
00:11:56 Alyssa
Sure does.
00:11:58 Macall
Really good memory and they're like, you know, I tell parents again, three -year -olds, if it's two books It is two books. It is never three books. It is never two books and an audio tape. It is two books. Because the minute it's three It's always going to be three because that child will go. Well, wait a minute last night. We read three, what's different about tonight and you will not have a good answer.
00:12:23 Alyssa
100 percent. Yeah Yeah, they really thrive. They thrive in routine.
00:12:29 Macall
It's yeah, it's routine and predictability, right? I mean, I know the I think these kids get thrown even more strongly by surprises or things they don't expect. In the realm of sleep parents will say oh, well, we decided that we weren't gonna feed her overnight. Where we just stopped and oh my god, she just lost it. We couldn't do it And I'm like, well, are you feeding her to sleep at bedtime and they go? Oh, yeah. Well, you can't do in the middle of the night, which she has no experience doing.
00:13:04 Alyssa
Totally.
00:13:04 Macall
For her that was a complete curveball. You can't
00:13:08 Alyssa
Yeah, she's like what are you doing? That's not what we do.
00:13:11 Macall
It's not what we do here, right? Yeah, absolutely. And they're gonna do that. Anyway, I mean, that's the other thing about these kids is no matter I have parents who are like, well, I don't want to do all of this at once, can we not just like do a little bit and then do a little bit. I'm like sure? But I promise you there's nothing so small that they're not gonna notice.
00:13:33 Alyssa
Yeah,
00:13:34 Macall
I think parents when they're this tired, which parents of these kids are--
00:13:39 Alyssa
Tired, I'm tired Macall. I'm tired
00:13:43 Macall
No, I know and not just tired from lack of sleep, these kids ask a lot of us all that time. Yeah, it's not just around sleep. They have a little magical thinking that that they're thinking okay, maybe there's something we could do that's not gonna cause some massive blowout, right like some massive explosion. Maybe there's just something I'm not thinking of that could be so small, but it'll just fix everything and we won't have to really have any more drama
00:14:15 Alyssa
Totally
00:14:16 Macall
And I have to tell them I'm like, no, I'm sorry It's gonna be bad, the first night, but but as long as we're supportive and that's the thing is I don't recommend the usual Burberry process because it doesn't work for these kids. I mean for some kids, some families, it totally will work, but most of the time it does not work for these kids.
00:14:40 Alyssa
So what do you recommend?
00:14:42 Macall
Yeah, so this is a different approach. I was, my co -author is Kim West, who's the sleep lady. She uses a gradual approach that is congruent with the way we do just about everything else with our kids, which is you give a lot of support at first, a lot of presence and help, and then we back that off over time. So you don't leave the room, you don't have to let them cry. You can pick them up when they get hysterical because no one's learning anything when they're out of their mind upset. You calm them down, you keep going. The key, the secret sauce is, because you're there and present and helping, it's as long as it takes.
00:15:27 Alyssa
Yeah, sure. Okay, so let me just kind of paint an example. So I'm assuming you're saying like starting this when they're going down because we said like you don't learn you don't want to do a new skill in the middle of the night. So when you're going down for bed we can use Mila my nine month old as an example. Mila is say tonight we're like okay we're not going to nurse down you're not going to fall asleep in my arms you're going to fall asleep in your crib, in your sleep space. And so we go through the routine. Let's say I pull nursing earlier, I nurse it at the beginning, and then we change her diaper and get her sleep sack on and get her all ready and sing our songs or whatever the routine is. And then goodnight, sound on, lights off, put her in her crib, and she screams like she's getting a leg cut off. And now what?
00:16:22 Macall
Yeah, so you're sitting right there the first time so these kids A. notice the discrepancy, right? They notice the disruption and what they expected to happen. They don't know what you're doing. So there's that element of surprise, which they hate. She knows it's something that she doesn't like she likes the other way. So there's a lot for sure. Of course, she's gonna lose it. So the first night I say, you're going to be picking up to calm a lot. You're just going to pick her up and calm her down and put her back. Now you're allowed to like rub her tummy or stroke her arm, or up and on, put your hand on her. Like you can be hands -on and help it. Um, but this is exactly where people say, well, can't I just rock her for a bit? And to get her in the zone. And it's like, yeah, you could, but I imagine the second you put her in the crib not fully asleep, then you might as well start from scratch, right? There's no there's no tiptoeing. So yeah, it's gonna take a while and she's gonna hate it. She's gonna really cry, but as long as you're picking her up, you're calming her down, if it gets bad, you give her a drink of water, we keep going. We just call the first night that first pancake, right? It's the little tester one that always is too light or funny -shaped, and we throw it out. Just just get through it. We just get through it. What we want to know is, is the second night better? And if the second night is at all better, then we keep going. Now, you know, when I work with people and certainly in the book, we rule out a bunch of firsts for like, okay, the child doesn't have apnea, obstructed breathing, silent reflux, restless legs, you know, we rule it all out. And the next thing we do is we make sure they're not overtired because these little kids, it's really likely often that they're overtired, and then they're going to cry harder. So we try to manage a little bit. So we say, let's get naps, enough nap time, a good time to blah, blah, blah. But they're still going to cry, and there's no way to get around it. But here's what usually happens with these kids is parents will do the first night with, say, Ferber or whatever, and it'll be horrible. And then they're like, okay, we're not doing that again. And they give up. First night they give up and they never make it to the second night and it's like but the night might have been better and not as was the first night. So we always have to test it out. Even with parents that I think maybe something physical is going on, I I'll say let's give it two or three nights of a behavioral try to see is this something that can be nudged from a behavioral standpoint? If the answer is no, we absolutely stop. I try to give it three nights, but sometimes night two is looking like it's gonna be so bad, we just stop. We just, I don't want to torture anybody. And then we look at physiological causes.
00:19:31 Alyssa
Like what?
00:19:32 Macall
Well again, like obstructive breathing, the big ones are silent reflux that hangs on six months, can happen. Tightness in the body, so, you know torticollis stuff that and there are signs of that. So laying down is uncomfortable. Restless legs. So this is low ferritin levels in the blood which absolutely, destroy sleep. Destroy sleep. But that's been the cause of the worst sleep problems I've seen. And in these cases you could do behavioral stuff all day long and you won't get anywhere because there's something physical going on.
00:20:14 Alyssa
And to clarify, when you're saying behavioral stuff, you mean like the new habit forming of like falling asleep?
00:20:19 Macall
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, this is just that they're used to one pattern and we need to change the pattern. That's behavioral. With these kids, it's like princess and the pea. It doesn't take a lot of discomfort to completely destroy them. So sometimes teething, well, we try not to let teething stop us because it never ends. Teething never ends.
00:20:40 Alyssa
It never ends. It never ends. It never ends. That's the thing. Like, we call her Beaners, Mila Bean, Beaners. And Beaners, I was like, oh my gosh, what a gift. She was, for the first, like, four months of life, save for the first maybe two weeks, she would sleep a nine -hour first stretch, and then nurse, go back down for the rest of the night. And I was like, Lord have mercy, this is such a gift, from my first to this is a gift. And then she got her first teeth at three, she got two teeth at three and a half months, and then she started rolling over, and she got more teeth, and then she sat up, and then she, and it's been like teeth, gross motor, teeth, gross motor, teeth, gross motor. And so we'll like get into a thing, and then we're back, and we'll get into, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't, child. And then like right now, she has no teeth, and she's at a gross motor, little bit of a plateau, she pulls to stand, and we're not yet walking, or that close. So I'm like, okay, and last night she had the best night of sleep she's had in a little while. And I'm like, girl, yeah, just like so hard. I find that whirlwind of infancy developmentally so hard.
00:21:53 Macall
Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, that's the thing about, you know, where people do an approach that they're talking to them. And this is part of the one of the problems I have with all the sleep training world is they're like, Nope, there's just one way and you got to do that one way and you just got to grit your teeth. And like all these researchers, they know parents hate it. They know parents hate it. And instead of saying, hey, maybe we should come up with alternatives. They're like, no, we got to figure out a way to talk parents into it. That's, it's bananas. Problem with it is if you do something that doesn't feel right, what parents don't know is you have to do it again. It doesn't stay done. It's not like you just do it one time and it's done ever. No every time there's a regression or illness or travel you have to redo it. And I've had a lot of parents who are like, I can't do that again. Can't go through that again
00:22:52 Alyssa
It's so hard. And even with the alternative just knowing I think there's such a fear of crying right like most of us are so I will say averse to hard emotions that a lot of us grew up in cultures where we weren't allowed to have hard emotions. We didn't learn how to just be in a hard emotion and allow it to exist and have an adult hold space for us and model that. And so a lot of the folks in our community are doing this work with kids for the first time as they're doing it with themselves, right? Like allowing themselves to have hard emotions and be with them and now trying to do it alongside kids and say, yeah, just just this week. I was at Mila's nine month appointment, pediatric appointment. And my son, who's three and a half, was there, too. And he wanted to do something. And I said no and was holding the boundary. And he was disappointed and he was crying and snuggling into me as I was talking to the pediatrician about Mila. And a friend of mine was there with me at the appointment and later was like, well, I like how you just like let him cry. And I was like, yeah, I mean, he's disappointed. My job isn't to make him stop feeling disappointed and he's allowed to cry when he's disappointed. But I think then when we pull that, we do this during the day, right? Where we're like, okay, they're allowed to feel mad, they're allowed to feel sad, they're allowed to cry. But then it comes to sleep and we don't want kids to feel those feelings or express those feelings. And there's like this mismatch.
00:24:35 Macall
Well, I also think that sensitive kids have sensitive parents, and I know a lot of people are themselves triggered or ground down by the sound of crying. Like it's just so much, their nervous system gets really fried. I also think parenting culture, especially in our country, tells parents, you're supposed to know what to do. You're supposed to you're supposed to know why this child's crying and what to do to solve it and I do I'd say something similar to parents like look if you're standing right there at the crib and you're helping, then they're not crying because they're scared or abandoned, you're right there. So then why are they crying crying because they don't like this. They don't want to be doing it. They don't understand it They don't know what they're supposed to do. So they're up, they're pissed. And that can be ok with us. It's different than I think the crying where you leave and they're just left to their own devices and if they get really really upset the language to parents is don't don't go pick them up because if you pick them up You're training them that you will pick them up and I always go. Yeah and?
00:26:00 Alyssa
Yeah I will come support you when you're having a hard time. I might not nurse you back to sleep. I might not give you the thing that you want, but I will support you through your hard emotions.
00:26:15 Macall
Because if we wait for them to be okay with it, you're going to be.
00:26:20 Alyssa
Mila is never signing up for that. She's never going to be like, you know what mom, it looks like you're tired.
00:26:25 Macall
Yeah let me do this a different way. Yeah. No, I tell them I'm like look there's no this idea that and and I say this constantly to parents, I, you know again, my kids are adults now, young adults, and back then it was cry it out or nothing.
00:26:44 Alyssa
Yeah,
00:26:44 Macall
We were like we were like in that following cues camp of like just follow their cues just follow their cues. They'll figure it out. And I say I followed their cues right off a cliff because it that never happened, right? They didn't they didn't totally just say nah, I don't want to do this anymore, right? Because you know kids don't know there's a different way. If we're nursing or rocking them to sleep, they're like, oh, this is how humans fall asleep. I joke and say for all they know. That's how you fall asleep They don't know why. So would they just one day go? Ah, like you said, I got it. I'm just gonna yeah, unless they're unless they're your son.
00:27:25 Alyssa
Yeah, I'm good. Well, say just like actually, please don't touch me. Is there way I can fall asleep or you're not touching me? Yeah, okay. This other thing just came up that I think is pertinent in that it's not the like fear of emotion. I think there's a-- I'm just picturing like Instagram world when we've posted about sleep and people are like-- that we are doing damage to this child if they're crying or we're not nursing them back or blah blah blah, and I think often the A. The benefits of sleep aren't talked about both from a mental health and physical health standpoint, not just for the adult but for the child. That like when your kid is getting great sleep, they're more able to regulate their nervous system, their emotions, to be able to access cognitive skills, et cetera. And for me as a parent, I am more of the parent I wanna be when I have had sleep. And the best thing for my kids is for me to be able to show up as that parent. And so if I'm just saying like, okay, she's gonna sleep at some point, whatever, this will work itself out, I'll keep waking up and nursing and blah, blah, blah, because that's what she wants right now, it's actually at her expense, both in the lack of sleep she's going to get and also me not getting quality sleep is at her expense.
00:29:01 Macall
Yes, that's true. And that's definitely a way that, I mean, I think that's front and center in most of the sleep stuff. Think the other point of view sometimes and of course, there's extremes on all of these you know these ideas is that those folks who are saying I don't want to do that are saying the cost of for example letting my kid cry, by themselves because really that's the again, that's the only approach people know about which is bananas, but they're like no the cost of sitting there and just letting her cry is not okay with me. So I'm gonna do this other thing, but they don't realize there's a middle ground So--
00:29:45 Alyssa
I don't, I disagree. I think so we, I know a lot of folks who are like, yeah no I'm supporting my kid and the cost of the amount of time they're crying even when they're supported all that jazz for them doesn't feel worth it. That it's not just like they're crying and not being supported but I think for a lot of folks even the like yeah I'm supporting them throughout the night and that we're still doing this for a long time and that doesn't feel worth it to me. I think that cost for folks feels too great sometimes too.
00:30:21 Macall
Yeah I think again I think being stuck in what the the paradigm of like you got to do Ferber or gut it out. I say cry it out versus gut it out for people. That's where they feel like their choices are and they're not. You don't have to do it. That's not the only option. And I do think for lots of people, if they knew there was a middle ground option, they would totally do it. Because I do think this is really tolerable. I do think it's doable even for super intense kids. Now there are going to be parents who just for whatever reason, their emotions, their own history of trauma, lots of reasons, just they can't. And that, I get it. That's cool, right? They don't want to do it. They're like, I'm not going to, I can't, I cannot handle my kid crying at all. Those parents definitely exist. But a lot of other people are like, I just don't want to do crying it out. And like I said, if we If you were giving parents options, hey, there's a lot of ways you could do this. You could do this when you're co -sleeping, you could do this with the crib in your room, you could do this with a toddler, you could do this with a four -year -old. Like, you have options. I think a lot more people would be into it. They're just worried, and especially with kids that you and I work with, they're worried about what that blowback could be. They're like, I'm so tired, I just can't. It can't be, I can't have it get any worse than it is right now.
00:31:51 Alyssa
Totally.
00:31:52 Macall
And that's a rough place to be.
00:31:53 Alyssa
I feel like I'm going to choose this part that's easier even if it means less sleep and I fully understand that. Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:00 Macall
I think that's absolutely true.
00:32:02 Alyssa
I've been in it where it's like I'm in a, it's easier for me to nurse this human back to sleep and get less sleep but not have to navigate the emotions of it all than just knowing like there are definitely seasons where I've been like, I don't have the capacity to do more right now. And so that resonates, what does it look like with folks who are co -sleeping?
00:32:25 Macall
Yeah, it's harder, it's harder. I always say, if you're gonna co -sleep full time, at least give that kid some crib skills in the first part of the night, because what usually ends up happening is moms are going to bed at seven o 'clock, and that's not a life.
00:32:42 Alyssa
Sure.
00:32:43 Macall
So I'm like, let's at least get the kid in a crib from seven till you go to bed, and then co -sleep the rest of the night. That's cool. Then you're working on those go to sleep skills in a crib. So you're like at least establishing those skills. For middle of the night, it ends up, you know, we just say, you're trying to stop nursing, back to sleep, mom's gotta wear full body armor- a zip up turtleneck, you know, or mom goes and sleeps in another room and the child co -sleeps with dad. But I co -slept with both my kids. One co -slept great. And the other we woke each other up. He was waking up every 45 minutes in a co -sleeping context. And he would have done better in his own space now looking back. So one worked, one didn't so I always say how is everyone sleeping? Yeah, is the baby latched all night long? That's not super great. Some kids do better in their own space. Some of these sensory -sensitive kids, the family bed is, from a sensory perspective,
00:33:50 Alyssa
Yeah thats my son
00:33:50 Macall
Somebody sneezes, somebody rolls over, yeah, the sheets rustle, like, it can be a place where some kids are more wakeful, so you just ask, how's it working for you? Without an agenda, again, it's harder but not impossible to sleep train or sleep coach.
00:34:11 Alyssa
Yeah, I appreciate that perspective and openness to, yeah, not a one -size -fits -all. My son, when we moved him to his own room, he was maybe four and a half months, he started sleeping better. And we're like, yeah, he's sensory sensitive, right? So like he wasn't in bed with us because he hated that, but even just being in the room where like if we get up or down or move or whatever, like he was so sensitive to it. And we tried to move my daughter early on and she lost her ever loving mind and then I ended up actually co -sleeping with her and she we co -slept very well together for a while.
00:34:49 Macall
Interesting. Yeah
00:34:51 Alyssa
And and he never did, just like different sensory systems, right? Well, this is so rad. So where can folks find this book learn more about your approach all that jazz? Can you share more with me?
00:35:06 Macall
Yeah, the book is due out November 19th, so right now we're still in pre -order, but it's on Barnes & Noble, Amazon. You can check out my website, it's called littlelivewires.com because I call these kids live wires. They just have more current running through their little systems and less of a circuit breaker to keep everything in control. They flip those circuits quite easily. So littlelivewires.com, And there's information on there about the book and if people want to sign up to be, to get an early copy and write a review, that'd be awesome, but all the information should be there. On instagram and stuff is also little livewires.
00:35:49 Alyssa
Awesome. Thank you so much for this Macall.
00:35:52 Macall
Of course. This is great
[Music]
00:36:02 Alyssa
Lately if she doesn't fall asleep nursing which I don't know why she isn't just falling asleep to sometimes nursing when she's like definitely tired, but if she doesn't, then she's beastly. Climbing all over me, playing with my face, laughing. No. Overnight sleep, so much better. In the pack and play. She snuggles right up into that side. Yeah, last night she nursed once at 4 a .m.
00:36:35 Rachel
Wow. That's a huge improvement.
00:36:38 Alyssa
Oh my god. I'm like, I can do anything. For the first time in a long time had eight hours of sleep. Glorious.
00:36:47 Rachel
So nice.
00:36:49 Alyssa
Okay, I need to talk about something. You know, as we're doing this work with schools and teachers, etc, and everyone's at different points in the work, one thing that I'm finding as we're like engaging with our Seed Cert teachers and stuff is when they're still in a behaviorist mindset, I get triggered. I'm like, no, we're doing this, like, we need to move past that. And especially when they think that they aren't, right? And, like, when they're like, oh, yeah, the dysregulation, but then it's really this behavior. It's like, yeah, they, they were dysregulated. And like, they yelled or whatever, but then they went over and hit a friend and did this behavior. And I'm like, oh yeah, they're still dysregulated.
00:37:40 Rachel
Yeah, it's still the same root cause.
00:37:43 Alyssa
Correct, yeah. And if you can tell me a series of things, behaviors that you see on the surface that are happening all within a 20, 30 minute span of each other, that child is dysregulated. Those are all of a root of dysregulation. And I guess I'm at this point where I'm like, I don't know. I'm struggling with how else to communicate this.
00:38:13 Rachel
Well, I think it's like, excuse me, my kids got me sick immediately when I got home.
00:38:19 Alyssa
Same. Same. I took one to the doctor yesterday.
00:38:23 Rachel
Thanks, guys. Um, I think it's It's like, in those situations where it's like, cognitively they're on board with this idea that challenging behaviors come from dysregulation, but I think there's social programming that takes a really long time to rewrite, and I think that's what comes up where cognitively they're like, yeah, this makes sense. The brain science makes sense, yes. And then they get in the moment with their kid, and this social programming comes up that they're like, oh, they're misbehaving. I need to punish this. I need to X, Y, Z. It's like when you're talking to a dysregulated kid and they can't access the skill that you know you have. This dysregulated adult
00:39:04 Alyssa
Thank you for this.
00:39:06 Rachel
Is not accessing the skill that they should and sometimes do have.
00:39:12 Alyssa
Yeah. Okay.
00:39:13 Alyssa
They're too triggered.
00:39:13 Alyssa
That's helpful. Reframe. Yeah. Yeah. That I love this. That was a good visual for me of cognitively they get it and then in the moment, it's the social programming that's in the driver's seat of their brain, not what they have learned and have access to in other spaces. That hits home for me of like, you know, I think with Sagey and manners, like looking at somebody when they're coming in or leaving or saying hello or goodbye or please or thank you or whatever are things that are so deep for me. And I can outside the moment know, like, yeah, he is fried, and I chose to have people over for dinner, and that was not his choice, but if it was his choice, he would've been like, no, I'm too tired to have people over for dinner, and now I want him to like perform in this way, and that comes up for me in those moments where I'm like, buddy, you need to pause and say goodbye, like, you don't have to touch them, but you need to acknowledge them, like those sorts of like manners things come up for me.
00:40:23 Rachel
I think like some of those two are like just designed for a neurotypical world where like I think about Sage and like, yeah, making eye contact, he doesn't do a lot of that with me. Like we'll be playing and talking and hanging out and he'll look at me for a second and then look away. So it's like eye contact is uncomfortable for him. And then there's this other part of me that was raised that was like in order to display respect to the people around you, you look them in the eye and greet them or say goodbye.
00:40:53 Alyssa
Exactly.
00:40:54 Rachel
Like that's such a neurotypical thing to like make eye contact, right?
00:40:59 Alyssa
Totally.
00:41:00 Rachel
There's layers there, right?
00:41:02 Alyssa
Yeah. I mean, this comes back to like that conversation you and I were having about like neurodivergent masking versus neurotypical masking. And I want my kids to have the skills they need to succeed in the world they live in. And also simultaneously trying to shift some of those things in the world they live in, but skills to succeed in the world they live in now. And I believe that people will perceive them differently based on their tone and their body language and how they communicate. And while I don't wish that that were true, right now, I think that is true. And so I want him to have those skills to succeed and have access to whatever he wants. If he wants to enter into a social group or he wants to get a certain job or he wants to attend a certain school or whatever, that like he has access to that and that takes some skills that, for my neurotypical human, come very easily, naturally and are -
00:42:13 Rachel
Oh yeah she’s actively trying to make eye contact, like, look at me.
00:42:15 Alyssa
Why are you not looking at my face? And for him, that's not the case. Like, that's something that he has to work on and cultivate in order to have access to those skills. And yeah its like, I wish that wasn't the world he lived in. And I believe it is the world we live in right now.
00:42:36 Rachel
It is. I mean, I had to work on Nora wouldn't make eye contact with adults outside of a very small circle for years. Even like saying hi to my parents, sometimes it would be like a quick like eye contact, hi, and then looking at the ground again.
00:42:53 Alyssa
Yeah, she and Sagey have so many similarities.
00:42:55 Rachel
They do. And I think one thing that helped her was entering into elementary school and just having more opportunity to practice that with adults that she didn't know well. Because she's like a social butterfly with her peers, right? It's adults that are hard for her to—it's stressful for her to connect with adults. Because now she is—she has a lot more ease in—it's still uncomfortable for her. You can tell just by the—there's a level of tension on her face when she does it.
00:43:29 Alyssa
So true.
00:43:29 Rachel
Yeah. But she definitely can do it with more ease now. And so I think obviously what you're doing with Sage where you're trying to build these skills and talk to him through it and whatever else. Some of it I think comes down to time and how many repetitions--
00:43:45 Alyssa
And exposure.
00:43:47 Rachel
Yeah.
00:43:47 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful. That's helpful perspective to have. And I, it was, it was so sweet to see last night. We went out for Halloween and every year we've just taken his lead on Halloween and he's never made it. We have this like loop that's not a very long loop by our house and he's never made it through the whole loop because we have been every year. the first people to start trick -or -treating in our neighborhood. And once more kids come out, he's been like, I want to go home. Bye. Too many people here. See ya. And that's been fine. We're like, okay, great. And this year he was the most jazzed he's ever been. He ran from house to house. And then our next door neighbors, we have four girls that live next door. We saw them on the loop, they like ended up joining up with us. And he spied them and he was like, Mom, I want to include them. And I was like, Oh, awesome, buddy. And he ran over and he goes, girls, I want to include you. He said, I'm inviting you to come trick or treat with me. It was so cute.
00:44:53 Rachel
Thats so sweet
00:44:53 Alyssa
And then it was like this like big kid moment where it's like little glimpses of that where like the adults are hanging back and the big kids are running up, and he's on the younger end of that group, and the oldest is seven. And so he was off to the races with them, going to the houses without us, and it was really rad to just get to witness.
00:45:16 Rachel
Yeah, that's so awesome.
00:45:18 Alyssa
Yeah, just the growth in those skills.
00:45:21 Rachel
Yeah, I was just going to say, thinking about how much he's grown, and I think the desire grows because he has more regulation skills, right?
00:45:29 Alyssa
Yeah, exactly. And just with age, where now he's more into social play. And even though he would like to very much control the social play, which will forever be his greatest work. His father is the same way.
00:45:45 Rachel
That's Nora.
00:45:46 Alyssa
Mid -30s. Yeah, yep, totally. And it's like the cognitive flexibility in play is a challenge. I mean, I will literally say to Zach, hey, you are going to like fully stress yourself out with this, hand parts of this project off. They might not happen the exact way that you want them to happen or that you envision that they'll happen. And that's okay. You're going to drive yourself nuts. And like, it's such a part of that sensory sensitive system that like cognitive flexibility and play and projects shows up so much. We see it over and over in coaching calls too. And so that's something that like, whatever he's gonna work on for a long time. And I have started practicing with him of like, I'll say things when we're playing together. Sometimes it's fully child led, he tells me what to do. And sometimes I'll say, oh, actually I wanted to build a road over here instead of a garage. And he'll say, no, no, I need you to build a garage. and I will let him know, oh, I'm planning to build a road. My plan's a little different than your plan. If your plan involves a garage, you can build one or you can make a plan B with me and hear about what my plan is and we can make a new plan together. And so like practicing, and sometimes he's in a state where he's like, yep, let's do this. And sometimes he's like, make a garage. And we navigate the dysregulation. But just like practicing that over and over and over right now. Yeah, especially before Beans is in the space where she's really playing with him.
00:47:24 Rachel
100%. And they are just such different humans.
00:47:28 Alyssa
Such different humans. Such different humans. Who are we chatting about today?
00:47:33 Rachel
Okay, today we are chatting. Oh, this is kind of on brand. Macall Gordon, livewire kids who can't sleep.
00:47:42 Alyssa
Oh, so on brand.
00:47:47 Rachel
You're really in this right now.
00:47:50 Alyssa
Oh my gosh, I'm so in this. I will say, like, one thing that came up for me here, the idea of just like habit and that so much of it for her sounds like there's a lot of habit action in here, like these kids might need certain spaces and also like might protest with different habits being formed in different ways. And it's just so interesting because like Sagey, my sensory sensitive human, protested once for 30 minutes, not even like fully 30 full minutes, just like yelling, Zach was snuggling him, calming, yelling, one time. And then he was like, okay, boom. And like, that was it. My only regret with Sagey's was that I didn't do it sooner because I didn't do it until he was like 18 months. And if I would have known he would have responded that way, I would have done it sooner. And who knows if he would have responded that way sooner. But with Beans, It's just not the case, man. When Zach responds, there have been times-- in our rules, like if she is getting to distress, that he taps out and gets me. And there've been times that he's had to tap out and get me where it's like, she, with all the touch and support and whatever, cannot co -regulate in the moment with him.
00:49:24 Rachel
Yeah, that was the case for Abel. It was always a choice for me to hand Nora off to Cody. It was not always a choice for me to do that with Abel.
00:49:38 Alyssa
Yeah, our Velcro babies.
00:49:39 Rachel
Wow, the intensity.
00:49:42 Alyssa
Oh my gosh, and she is just, she would climb inside my womb if she could, and I am her person. And yeah, with Sagey, I was definitely his safe person, but yeah, he just, he could, he accepted Zach way more than she does. He also just protests way less in general. Like his, his nervous system reaction is more of a shutdown mode. Like he'll just disconnect and be like, okay, fine. And disconnect. And now he's actually started saying, okay, fine. And she has never said, okay, fine in her life and might never say, okay, fine. She screams and she's like, it's not fine. And I am not worried about her self -advocacy skills. Let me tell you, she has those in the bag. She goes into fight mode.
00:50:41 Rachel
Yeah, she does.
00:50:44 Alyssa
And especially in the middle of the night and around sleep, fight mode is so much harder than shutdown, than freeze.
00:50:55 Rachel
Yeah, I had one. Abel would cry and cry and cry and cry and cry. And unless I did what he wanted me to.
00:51:03 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:51:04 Rachel
And like, it wasn't like, oh, we just need to build a new habit. It was like, he's literally not capable of doing what I'm asking him to do, so.
00:51:13 Alyssa
That's it.
00:51:15 Rachel
Now I'm going to hold it in the dark for a long time, you know?
00:51:23 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. And what comes up for me here too is like timing of, with Beans, I think part of why things are getting easier now is that she's had a huge language burst. And so she understands so much more than she did a month ago. And when I tell her what to expect and here's what's gonna happen and whatever, she has a felt safety because she understands. And I wonder that too with like the timing of when we formed new habits with Sagey around sleep and took nursing out of sleep for him, he very much understood and could communicate with us at 18 months. And so I wonder if like, that's why it was easier too. Like there was a language component that a seven month old or an eight month old is different than my 10 and a half month old in terms of receptive language.
00:52:23 Rachel
Yeah, yeah, I think that definitely makes a difference. I was not able to get Abel sleeping consistently until I took nursing out of his sleep, and I was not successful in that until he had pretty solid receptive language. He was like 15 months old when I finally was like, okay, we're going to do the thing. And I think, you know, I had tried several times earlier to do anything to make him sleep better. And it just wasn't working prior to--
00:53:04 Alyssa
Anything. Yeah, I think like for us, that language piece, and I think it's also for me, like, there's comfort in knowing like, okay, she understands what I'm saying to her. And she can be mad about it until kingdom come. But she understands what's happening. Mad is an emotion that is easy for me to hold space for. It's not a triggering one for me. And I'm okay with her feeling mad. Her feeling scared is harder for me. Or sad is the frigging worst for me. Sad's the hardest emotion I think. Sad and left out are the hardest emotions for me to hold space for. And so for her, when she's like, it's like a sad scared cry when she didn't understand and Zach's holding her, but she's like, where is my mom?
00:54:06 Rachel
Yeah,
00:54:07 Alyssa
And I I just can't.
00:54:10 Rachel
Yeah,
00:54:11 Alyssa
Not at 2 am.
00:54:12 Rachel
No, and like even at bedtime sometimes I would be trying to have Cody do this and I would just hear that cry of like, okay we're getting to the edge of distress its like yeah, I'm going in. I'm taking him because I'm not I can't listen to that. Like, I cannot.
00:54:27 Alyssa
Yeah. I guess, like, for me, the benefits don't outweigh the costs. Like, for me, the distress cry is not something I want their nervous system to experience and try to not have them experience wherever I can and recognize, like, yeah, sometimes we're going to be in the car and, like, we have got to drive and Sage was going to experience a distress cry or things like that. but where I can step in, I will. That I know that this time is so temporary and sleep is a huge trigger for me and it's definitely a huge piece for my mental health. And so it's like always that balance of like, how do I get the most sleep that I can while supporting their nervous system?
00:55:18 Rachel
Yeah, it's so hard.
00:55:20 Alyssa
So hard, it's a juggle.
00:55:22 Rachel
It's a juggle. And don't get me wrong, there were definitely times that Abel cried at bedtime. A lot of them. But there was a difference between his protest cry. I mean, he cried so much, right? It was basically like he was talking to me. I could really differentiate what he was communicating. And so if he was mad, I was fine with that. And he was mad a lot. But when he started to get into the like, you know, that type of cry, it's like, all right, game over. Here comes the boob. And your mom.
00:55:58 Alyssa
It's really cool too with Gabby. And you got to hear it this weekend, like when we were together, where like babies were really new to her. And so Beans is like her first like baby. And Beans spends more time with Gabby outside of me than anybody else. Like, she is, that's their second person she's with the most. And it's been really cool to watch Gabby develop an understanding of the language of cries with Beans. And just to hear her talking about like, oh yeah, that's her cry that means this or that's her cry that means that or knowing when to tap out. And at the very beginning, it was any cry. It was like, I need, what do I do? I need to take a stop. I gotta tap out. And just developing that and like getting to know them and how cool that is to like watch for me to get to watch the adult develop that understanding of the language of cries and recognizing that kids are always communicating with us. And when we go from that basis of like all behavior is communication of a need, they're always communicating with us. And it doesn't always include verbal language, but they're always communicating with us. And when we can tune into that and get curious, and that's what Gabby slays at. She's so good at like getting curious about like, what is she saying? What is coming up for her? And what's she communicating?
00:57:24 Rachel
Understanding that is so key. Cause if you are gonna build new habits, especially around sleep, being able to differentiate, like, is my baby mad or do they need my help right now? Like, are they beyond the point where they can hang? You know?
00:57:39 Alyssa
Exactly, yeah. Even with Bean's protest before nap today, I nursed her, I knew she was tired, and she was being bonkers all over my body and not nursing anymore. And so I was like, I'm just gonna put her in her pack and play, and I'm gonna walk out, and I'm just gonna listen to her and see what happens. And for a while, she talked, she yelled, she stood up, she screamed, basically saying, hello, where are you, what's going on? Like and almost like talking and then eventually she started to ramp up and I was like okay now we're gonna step in and like provide support and uh so I did and she did not respond to me and so I tapped out to Zach. But I think that like playing around with that is huge. And when she was a newborn, I mean, I think part of her sleeping so well, she loved the SNOO in like the, not even the movement, because there was a chunk of time where the movement stopped in the SNOO, but the proximity, like she loves that enclosure and like she would reach out.
00:58:50 Rachel
Cozy.
00:58:50 Alyssa
Yeah. She was never swaddled in it. She would just reach out and like touch the sides, but she would talk herself to sleep. Since she was like literally six weeks old, she would just like talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk out. And if I would have gone in when she was talking, I think it would have, I think she also needed that, like it was almost like her offloading, like, let me tell you about everything that happened in this last wake period. And then be able to crash. And I think it would have interrupted her flow if I just like went in because she was making noise.
00:59:26 Rachel
Yeah, for sure.
00:59:27 Alyssa
I do think that there are a number of sleep programs that are not just cry it out or like that that's the only sleep response. There are a lot of sleep programs now and there are a number that are tuned in to a child and connected to them. I feel like there was a presentation a little bit of this is like the only option out there that is not cry it out and I just want to assure parents that like if you've been working with another program, you're not failing your kid there.
01:00:01 Rachel
Yeah, absolutely. There really is no one -size -fits -all for this. It is so dependent on your kid's nervous system and your family dynamic, and also you. What's your comfort level? What are your goals? All of that, right?
01:00:22 Alyssa
100%. Yeah. And I also did really love that she presented that like, yeah, nights one, two and three of building a new habit will involve some hard feelings.
01:00:38 Rachel
Yeah, they're gonna suck.
01:00:40 Alyssa
Yeah. And that doesn't mean that something is going wrong. But I think we are a so afraid of hard feelings, and B, it's just so hard when you're tired. Like, I definitely know that feeling of being in it and being like, I'm just gonna do what feels easiest for me right now, even if it's short -term instead of long -term, because I don't have the capacity for long -term in this moment.
01:01:04 Rachel
Yeah, I remember feeling really triggered when, honestly, when both my kids were little, and anytime I would be like, I'm tired, and then somebody would be like, well, you know, you can sleep train and get better sleep. And it's like, yeah, but initially that involves less sleep and I'm barely surviving. Like, yes, I am just nursing them back down.
01:01:24 Alyssa
Less sleep and more dysregulation.
01:01:26 Rachel
Yeah. Like, I can't do that. I'm hanging on by a thread here, people.
01:01:30 Alyssa
Correct. Yeah. And like, same. I have been in those phases where I'm like, I just, I can't.
01:01:37 Rachel
I can't.
01:01:38 Alyssa
I can't.
01:01:40 Rachel
I have this body part that makes them go back to sleep and it's so convenient to just whip it out and go back to sleep as fast as I can. Yeah.
01:01:48 Alyssa
So real.
01:01:49 Rachel
You know what I mean? It's just like...
01:01:51 Alyssa
Oh, I know what you mean. Living it. Loving it.
01:01:55 Rachel
And to be the one trying to soothe the baby and not nurse when you have the body equipment right there, it's like they're not receptive to that. They are like,
01:02:06 Alyssa
Zero percent.
01:02:06 Rachel
My food and comfort are right there and you're not giving it to me. I'm going to show you how upset I am, so I hope you're ready because buckle up for no sleep and no joy.
01:02:18 Alyssa
No joy, are the way that we've done it with both kids, is that if I'm responding, I'm nursing. And so if we don't want this to be a nursing time, Zach's responding. And that is the privilege of a two -parent household. And it is for us, like, oh, I have another trigger that just came up here. When people are like, well, my partner just like, doesn't do great without enough sleep. Like, they're really dysregulated without sleep. And I'm like, yeah, same. None of us do great without sleep. Like none of us are like, you know what I want? Less sleep. You know what's gonna help me? Less sleep. Like, no, none of us. And part of being a parent is like, yeah, sometimes I'm gonna have less sleep because we have to tag team this. I like that as a trigger for me. And for me, one of the things I had to say to Zach really early on was basically that, that like, A, I need you to be a partner in this, in tag teaming this and B, I can't hear about how tired you are the next day because I'm the one who's been getting up and doing this and like, welcome. Welcome to the way I've been living.
01:03:31 Rachel
Yeah.
01:03:32 Alyssa
And he was like, okay, I'm like, you need to vent about how tired you are. Go ahead, find a friend. I'm not your friend for this. Yeah, it's not space that I'm gonna hold for you.
01:03:44 Rachel
Cody didn't do a lot of nighttime parenting with Nora because I didn't need him to. He put her to bed every night, and she was so easy to put back to sleep by nursing that I was just like, yeah, this is fine. I would literally nurse her, put her back in her space awake, and she would fall back asleep on her own. Abel was a completely different story. I would nurse him and try to put him back in his space awake, and he was like, LOL, where are you going? Come on back.
01:04:10 Alyssa
Uh, Excuse me,
01:04:10 Rachel
We're hanging out. Yeah, so what I would do, like if he, I would nurse him and then if he didn't go back down within like 10 minutes, I would get Cody and Cody would like stand over his crib and like jiggle him back to sleep.
01:04:28 Alyssa
I remember the jiggle.
01:04:30 Rachel
Yeah, he didn't want to be in arms with Cody. That made him angry, right? Because he's like, if somebody's holding me, it's not you I want. But he would let Cody jiggle him back down and Cody did a ton of nighttime parenting with Abel because I was so fried from postpartum depression that I was like, I cannot be jiggling this kid for 45 minutes in the middle of the night. I'm going to jiggle myself right into a breakdown.
01:04:55 Alyssa
Even for like going down, like just now for nap, if she doesn't just like nurse and fall asleep and go in, I have very little capacity for doing more beyond that because I'm like, I do all the nursing and all the whatever, that yeah, if she's not going down, this happened last night for bed, she didn't, she like protested bedtime and I like nursed her, she actually ended up pooping, which is why she was protesting bedtime last night.
01:05:22 Rachel
Yeah, makes sense.
01:05:23 Alyssa
But I like nursed her.
01:05:25 Rachel
But you don't know that before the poop.
01:05:27 Alyssa
Correct. And so I was like, here, she's your daughter now.
01:05:31 Rachel
Yeah. Yeah, totally.
01:05:33 Alyssa
And that's what happens. I start to get fired up and I'm like, your kid needs you to Zach, not our kid, not Mila, your child needs you.
01:05:41 Rachel
Oh, yeah.
01:05:42 Alyssa
She is in this moment, your child.
01:05:44 Rachel
I say that to Cody, like if Abel's really starting to get under my skin, because he's still the same level of Velcro, right?
01:05:53 Alyssa
Yeah, totally. Velcro isn't going away.
01:05:55 Rachel
That's part of who he is. So I'll just be like, your son needs something and I physically cannot. Yeah, I mean, just full transparency on here, like, I sleep with Abel every night now. And if I could tell myself, when he was a baby, that that was going to be the end game, I think I would have just done it then. Like, I could totally make a new habit with Abel, but I just don't want to because he sleeps through the night when I'm next to him. So I'm just like, Okay, I'm gonna sleep next to you. So that's that.
01:06:33 Alyssa
That's also Bean's dream. Zach at one point was like, should we get a dog just to put in her crib?
01:06:40 Rachel
Hilarious.
01:06:40 Alyssa
I was like, no.
01:06:44 Rachel
Hashtag safe sleep.
01:06:48 Alyssa
Oh man, when you're in that space you're like, I'll do anything?
01:06:51 Rachel
You'll literally do anything.
01:06:54 Alyssa
He was like, should we put Sage and Beans in the same room? And I was like, that is his nightmare. And just like going through all the like, how can it not be our bodies? Because the reality is like, if it's my body next to her right now, and I wonder how this would have been for Abel before, like earlier on when he was still nursing, if he would have actually slept through the night, because for us,
01:07:19 Rachel
He wouldn’t have.
01:07:19 Alyssa
She will not. She just wants to nurse then all night long when I'm right next to her. And she would love that. She loves it, but I'm not gonna nurse her all night long. It's not good for her sleep, it's not good for my sleep, and yeah, I'm not the parent I wanna be in that case. And then she's just dysregulated more so during the day when she has nights like that.
01:07:41 Rachel
Of course, yeah.
01:07:44 Alyssa
She's tired, yeah, and it shows up.
01:07:46 Rachel
Remember when I was messaging you, this was when Abel's sleep was really bad, and I was convinced that if I found a sleep sack with a lovey attached, that like, then he could always find the lovey and it would like solve my, it would solve my whole life. You just get so desperate. You're like, please, Amazon, is there a product? Just give me something.
01:08:09 Alyssa
It is--the desperation for a product is so real.
01:08:15 Rachel
It really is. It's like, please, please.
01:08:17 Alyssa
And in those moments, I'd buy anything. I'd sell a kidney of my own to just like buy the product.
01:08:23 Rachel
Just to not be physically needed that often throughout the night.
01:08:28 Alyssa
To have a break from parenting. That's what it is for me. I've realized so much is if I am 24/7 on, where I can't even like count on, okay, when kids are asleep, I'm gonna get, even honestly, there were times I was like, I wouldn't even get a three hour stretch. And I'm not talking newborn days. She fricking slayed newborn days. And so to be like, oh my God, is this ever going to end?
01:08:53 Rachel
This is like fairly recently.
01:08:56 Alyssa
Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And she was like out every hour and a half. She'd gone to the nurse or whatever and just being, even if she would do a three -hour stretch, it was just the unpredictability of whether or not I could bank on that and just, then my brain is on. I'm like, oh, what's that noise? Is she, does she need something, whatever. And like, that is so hard for me to feel like I can never tap out.
01:09:19 Rachel
Yeah, and like you feel like, at least for me, like sometimes I feel this at bedtime where I'm like, I have made a conscious effort to connect with you today, every day.
01:09:32 Alyssa
And if you want me to make a conscious effort tomorrow too, you got to go to sleep. I need a break from you.
01:09:37 Rachel
Like legit, like I am giving you everything I have, okay? And you're taking too much, all right?
01:09:45 Alyssa
There's nothing left to give. I am not the giving tree.
01:09:47 Rachel
Literally.
01:09:48 Alyssa
Yeah. Mm -hmm.
01:09:50 Rachel
100%.
01:09:50 Alyssa
Oh, so real. I feel that deep in my core. Deep in my core.
01:09:54 Rachel
What a hopeful.
01:09:55 Alyssa
Any other thoughts?
01:09:56 Rachel
What a hopeful happy episode.
01:10:00 Alyssa
Honestly, these are the kind of things, though, that I wish people talked about more of. I don't need more stories about people's kids sleeping through the night.
01:10:09 Rachel
No.
01:10:10 Alyssa
It's why when Sagey potty trained so easily, I was like, I can't talk about this because that's never going to happen again. I was like, I can't ever say that out loud. Because I've also worked with so many kids as a preschool teacher, etc. We're like, yeah, that's not how it goes. And it wasn't because I did anything in particular with Sagey. It's who he is as a human and how his body works. And I just, yeah, I don't need to hear about your kid who sleeps through the night all the time. And that you just like, it's so magical. I don't need to hear that. I don't right now need to hear that. And so I stand by this breakdown and that this is, we're giving the people what they want, I think, or at least me what I want of like, yeah, it's not all rainbows and butterflies. It's a fricking mess. And every time my mom tells me that all five of us slept through the night by 10 days old, I literally at this point have said like, in what world do you feel like that's helpful for me to hear? What is your goal there? That now my kid's gonna start sleeping through the night? Maggie, that's not true. That's not how that played out. Rose colored glasses here.
01:11:24 Rachel
Like, yeah, how is that possible?
01:11:27 Alyssa
There's no way it is, Rach. We got mad Alzheimer's genes in my family too, so I take some of the things with a grain of salt.
01:11:34 Rachel
I've never met a baby that did that, let alone five.
01:11:39 Alyssa
Five, all five of ya. There's no way but I'm just like even if there was a way
01:11:46 Rachel
Love you Mags.
01:11:49 Alyssa
Love ya. Thanks for tuning in. I was like that's not helpful for me to hear like what do you think is going to happen when you say that out loud? Then I'm gonna be like, oh, you're right. There's something I wasn't doing just because I didn't know that I could. No. What?
01:12:09 Rachel
And also, at that time in our culture, newborn babies were put to bed on their bellies and covered with like 10 blankets. So they're getting like tons.
01:12:19 Alyssa
That is exactly what she said. She was like, I nursed you to sleep and I laid you on your belly and I covered you with the blankets. And I'm like, thank God we're here today.
01:12:29 Rachel
I know. I mean, we all slept like that too. My mom put us to bed on our bellies and gave us tons of blankets and probably stuffed animals and God knows what.
01:12:38 Alyssa
And then just didn't have a monitor or whatever. So whatever happens, happens.
01:12:44 Rachel
I know. Just a generation with much less anxiety.
01:12:50 Alyssa
Oh, it sounds dreamy, right? So dreamy.
01:12:54 Rachel
It's hard to even conceptualize putting a baby down and then not obsessing over every peep that comes through the monitor that's on blast.
01:13:03 Alyssa
Or like, is the, is that sleep sack on right? Are they going to die in their sleep sack because it's too loose and they're going to get tangled in it and it's SIDS and whatever. Like,
01:13:11 Rachel
Are they going to overheat?
01:13:14 Alyssa
Yeah. Oh, are they going to overheat? A hundred percent. Yeah. No, they're like your 17 blankets and your squishy bumper and the teddy bear and your belly and just good luck. See you in the morn. Just can't, I can't.
01:13:31 Rachel
It's absurd. So maybe you all did sleep through the night because you were deprived of some level of oxygen. Were we all?
01:13:46 Alyssa
I just don't believe we did. But in the moment when she says that, I'm just like, what's your end goal here?
01:13:53 Rachel
Yeah, because you're just making me feel sad and alone.
01:13:56 Alyssa
Yeah, I ask her that question a lot. What are you hoping will happen when you share that with me, mom?
01:14:01 Rachel
Oh, man. Well, if you are parenting a kid that doesn't sleep for shit, you're not alone.
01:14:10 Alyssa
You're not alone.
01:14:12 Rachel
We've all been there.
01:14:14 Alyssa
Some of us are still there.
01:14:18 Rachel
Hey, but you know what? Now my kids are nine and five, and yes, I sleep in the same room as my five -year -old, and yes, bedtime is very annoying, but once...
01:14:29 Alyssa
Once they're down and I'm there, he sleeps through the night.
01:14:33 Rachel
That's right. Once they're asleep. This is supposed to be like hopeful. Anyway, once they're both asleep, they sleep through the night. Unless they have a nightmare, or they have to pee, or they're sick.
01:14:51 Alyssa
Or they're sick, or they're growing, and they have growing pains, or they get cold. Or hot. I have a clarifying question. When Abel sleeps at your parents for an overnight, what does he do?
01:15:14 Rachel
Well, first of all, that almost never happens. That's happened twice in his whole life. The first time he was two, and he still had his pacies, so he was perfectly happy to sleep in a pack and play with 14 pacies. And then the last time he stayed at my mom's was the night before the hike.
01:15:41 Alyssa
Oh yeah, the hike. The evacuation hike, yep.
01:15:45 Rachel
Wow. And my mom slept in the same room as him, she sure did.
01:15:51 Alyssa
And so does Cody sleep in the same room with him like when we were at the conference?
01:15:55 Rachel
No, he puts Nora and Abel together.
01:15:58 Alyssa
Oh, smart.
01:15:59 Rachel
They actually look forward to that. So our family rule is they sleep separately unless one parent is not there at bedtime. And if there's a solo parent at bedtime, they get to sleep together.
01:16:11 Rachel
Got it, nice. Okay. He likes the presence of another human.
01:16:16 Rachel
Loves it. Loves it.
01:16:18 Alyssa
Yeah, Beaners too. I was going to say from morning till night, but nope, all through the night.
01:16:25 Rachel
Nope. Just 24 hours a day.
01:16:28 Alyssa
Oh, Rachel. Love you.
01:16:31 Rachel
Love you.
01:16:31 Alyssa
Thanks for keeping it real.
01:16:32 Rachel
It's so real. The realest.
01:16:35 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
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