Parenting Tweens & Teens: Boundaries, Repair, and Real Connection with Dr. Ann-Louise Lockhart

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

Alyssa: [00:00:00] You're listening to Voices Of Your Village, and today I'm joined by someone I deeply respect. Doctor Ann-Louise Lockhart, clinical psychologist and author of the brand new book Love the Teen You Have. In this episode, we dive into the often messy world of parenting tweens and teens. Doctor Lockhart and I explore how connection, not control, is the foundation for healthy, respectful relationships with our kids as they grow. We talk about how to navigate conflict, what it means to truly see your child, and why boundaries and belonging aren't opposites. This conversation is packed with real tools and grounded wisdom for anyone parenting through the big feelings and growing independence of adolescence. All right, folks, let's dive in.

Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the collaborative emotion processing method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together! I'm so stoked for your new book! How are you feeling about it?

Dr. Lockhart: [00:01:15] I feel great, I feel great. The preparation and everything. It's just now getting it out into the world and talking about it and promoting it, but I feel very happy about it.

Alyssa: [00:01:27] I'm stoked about it. I feel like there are so many resources and maybe it's just the world I live in, but in that early childhood space like parenting, toddlers and yada yada. And we wrote Big kids because I felt like as they get older, we're like, you've got this. We're like, well, actually it's still hard. And then so we wrote the 5 to 12 year old range and I'm like, okay. Hi, Doctor Lockhart. Please come help us with tweens and teens. I love this, so love the teen. You have a practical guide to transforming conflict into connection. Obsessed because I mean honestly bless. If my I have two children and one of them is very similar to my husband who has followed every rule he's ever encountered in life. He wants a rule book. We're playing a new game and he's like, let me read the directions. I want to set it up correctly. I want to know how to play. And I'm like, hey, we'll figure it out as we go. Rules are rules. And I was, oh, a tough teen. I'm like, I've never met a boundary that I've said yes to. Just on face value.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:02:37] Yeah.

Alyssa: [00:02:38] In life and my daughter is very similar to me. She's like, let me hear the why and I'll decide if this actually matters to me. And so when we look ahead to teens, I'm like, I could see my son being a relatively easy teen to parent, and my daughter just really given me a run for my money. So.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:02:56] How old are they right now?

Alyssa: [00:02:58] So far from it. We have a lot of time to get there. My son is four and a half and my daughter is 19 months. She. Although sometimes feels a little like 19 years old. She's a giant extrovert. And I'm wondering when we were doing the research for big kids, one of the things we started to see that was really popping up and really prevalent was our high connection seekers, the ones who were like, oh, I just I really want to connect with humans around me that like fills me up, that they were often the ones who were given their parents a big ol run for their money because it was they want inclusion and belonging, right? And so they were late at night, like hopping on a phone and trying to pop on Snapchat because they want to connect with a peer, right? Or doing things that they know they're not supposed to do, but they want to feel like they're included and like they belong. And so I'm super jazzed to dive into all these different types of humans with you today.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:04:03] Yeah, I know I love this population so much. I think that they can be so challenging because they are so misunderstood.

Alyssa: [00:04:12] Yes. Yeah, yeah yeah. And I think we forget sometimes that we're we're just in relationship with them. Right. And to just be in relationship with them.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:04:23] Exactly.

Alyssa: [00:04:24] Yeah. You outlined that you can't guide a child who doesn't feel safe or seen by you. Break that down a little bit more. What does it look like to help a child feel safe or seen with you?

Dr. Lockhart: [00:04:37] Yeah, whenever I'm coaching parents, that is something that I like to remind them of constantly that the when they're raising their tweens or teens and we're talking like 9 to 19. So the the teen years is kind of expanded in terms of when it starts to show up because puberty is starting earlier. The exposure to a lot of things on screens or social interactions, we're releasing a lot of that onset much earlier. So but that connection is everything. And I always tell parents that rules without relationship equals rebellion. And it's true because if you have all the systems in place, all the consequences and behavior charts and whatever else you've done when they were toddlers and school age, because that's what we get, right? You do this and then you get this behavior. With teens, it's different. I don't have a lot of systems or strategies and things that I do with parents of this age group, because it's less about the strategy and the system, and it's more about feeling connected emotionally so that they can feel safe and seen by you. Because if that's not the case, if you don't have that emotional connection, that relationship, none of the rules and boundaries and strategies are going to stick because connection equals relational equity like it's it's putting deposits into your teen's emotional bank account so that when things get tough, because they will you can make a withdrawal and you can take it out of the bank. And so these are some of the metaphors I like to give to parents, because it's really about helping them understand that it's about being real, having that real connection, because not everything is going to be calm and perfect. And just because you do something doesn't mean it's always going to work. And just because it doesn't work doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. So I think that parents need to also remember that. Is that just because you're doing all the right things in parenting doesn't mean it's always going to have the outcome that you expected, unfortunately.

Alyssa: [00:06:36] I love this so much because so much of our work in parenthood, and I think especially in social media parenting, it's this like, do this, not that, say this, not that. And when we come back to we just need to connect and be in relationship first. That for me as a parent, feels calming and more accessible of okay, if I can just day in and day out, I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to yell, I'm going to lose my cool, I'm going to react. I'm going to say no. And I could have said yes. Like all those things are going to come up for me as a parent day to day. If I continue to come back to connection and being in relationship with that human, which sometimes will include repair, right. It's like, oh man, earlier today when we were chatting about after school activities and you were saying you want to do soccer, and you also want to be able to be in the drama club. And I was feeling so overwhelmed with the logistics that I was rude to you. And I've taken a beat and I've slowed down and I'm ready to talk about it again. I'm sorry for being rude to you. And we we get to come back in and navigate that as long as we remember that we're in connection. I just wrote this down. The rules without relationship equals rebellion. Because when I think back to teenager Alyssa, there were a lot of rules in place. There was a lot of structure in place, the relationship wasn't there. And so I was like, hey, I don't have to follow this rule because we didn't have that relational equity, right? And I see it in my kids now too.

Alyssa: [00:08:20] And they're so young and still. We see if I have poured into them, if I have connected with them, even sometimes it's just a little like, good morning, buddy. It's so good to see you. Then they're more likely to be collaborative. They're more likely to do things like brush their teeth when they don't want to, or get dressed and out the door for school than if I don't pour into them and I'm just like, hey, here's what we got to do next. Let's keep this train rolling. Let's go That relationship piece is so key. I love that I wrote it down and underlined it and like taking this with me already. Key takeaway from you here, Doctor Lockhart. I love it when it comes to connection with your tween or your teen. We know that as they're getting into these older ages, that identity and belonging and inclusion matters so much and we can see them really look for who am I outside of the home, outside of my relationship to my parents, etc. this can show up in ways like I want to wear this shirt or this brand shoes, or I want to hang out with these people, or I'm trying to figure out who I am right outside the house. What does it look like for us as the adults and as their parents, to meet them in this without trying to, like, steer them in a specific direction to really achieve that connection of like, I see you for who you are and not who I'm trying to make you be.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:09:51] Yeah, and that's a big thing, because one of the developmental milestones as children move into their teen years is that sense of individuation. I'm an individual apart from my family. So you can raise them with all kinds of beliefs and values and traditions and habits, and then they show up in the teen years and all of a sudden you're like, who is this person in front of me? Where did this happen? We never taught you this. We don't believe this. We don't, you know, accept this. We don't vote that way. We don't think that way. We don't talk that way. Like, because they have free will and they are their own person. And so having that sense of individuation is so important. And some teens like you and I, it sounds like when we were teens, we see this boundary. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go different, right? And you have this sense of self because, well, because everybody's doing this, then I'm going to think this way. I'm going to do this way. And I think that's where parents have to get curious and be interested. So if a kid says something really off the wall or something that you're like, well, that's not what we like to do in this house, that it could be more like you lead with curiosity. Oh, well, that's that's an interesting perspective. Tell me more about that. I'm curious about that because sometimes they'll do things to get a rise out of you. Sometimes they'll do it because it's their mindset. Sometimes they'll do it because they know what you believe about the thing that they just talked about.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:11:26] And so if you start to get into this, well, what you should do is that's when you see a lot of the upping the ante. And they're they're looking to move and they are looking for the conflict even in a sense to make that connection or they're wanting to be able to express themselves. And so I find that when teens don't feel heard, just like we talked about a little bit ago, about being seen when they don't feel heard and seen. They're going to escalate and elevate their voice and their attitude and their boundary pushing and all those kinds of things, because it's like, well, clearly you didn't hear me, so I'm going to get louder. And it could be in many different ways, the way they dress, the things they wear, the things they do, the friends that they have, the way they have the piercings or the tattoos or whatever else. I mean, they will get loud because they want to be seen and they want to show that I am my own person. So the best thing that parents can do in that moment is, rather than trying to change their mind, is that they realize like, oh yeah, you do have your own individual beliefs and thoughts and views and values and they're different than ours. So now I'm going to be leaning in and I'm curious. Tell me more about that. What would that look like?

Alyssa: [00:12:33] Yeah. It's that wanting to know them rather than wanting to control them. I absolutely love this. Also already wrote down another thing from you loving this. The looking for conflict, for connection. This is definitely something that I did a lot of. I'm one of five kids. I grew up in a low income household. There wasn't a lot of my parents to go around, to be honest. My mom waitressed nights and weekends just putting food on the table. And it was it was tough to get those like emotional needs met in terms of feeling seen. And so now, as you said, that I was like a light bulb moment. Like that was what I often did was I sought out conflict, not consciously. I wasn't like, here, I'm going to get connection this way. In fact, I didn't realize it until this very moment hanging out with you. But I sought out conflict often to the point where my parents were like, she's going to be a lawyer. Like, that's where this is going, really, in an effort to connect, to have their attention, to have their connection, that even if it wasn't the way that I wanted to receive connection, I now at least had their attention in some capacity.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:13:38] Yep. And I saw that a lot during the pandemic and the lockdown. Sure. A lot. A lot of kids. I mean, we got a lot of calls from, like, parents of three four year olds and parents of like 14, 15, 16 year olds. So because toddlers and teens to me, I think are very similar. And so we got a lot of that in terms of like the meltdowns and the tantrums and the yelling and the screaming, getting kicked out of of the zoom room and daycare and all these kinds of things because they were unstimulated, they were bored, they were wanting variety, all these things. And so I think we have to pay attention to if you have a kid, a teenager who's like nagging or they're pushing buttons or they're trying to get a rise out of you, or they're saying like, bruh, oh, we don't call me bruh. I'm not your bruh. Like all these little things that seem like little annoyances, like, why are they doing it? And, you know, parents will often say, oh, because they're wanting to annoy me. Why are they really doing it, though? Like, I don't believe most teenagers are trying to annoy their parents on purpose. I believe that there's been like I always talk about like, look behind the behavior, right? We talk about that for all ages, get curious about what's driving the behavior.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:14:51] So if they're doing things that appear to be trying to annoy you, push your buttons like pay attention to that. Why are they trying to annoy you? Well, because they're trying to get my attention. So why are they trying to get your attention? Oh, well, because I'm working a lot. Or because I don't hang out with them or because we don't have good conversations, or every time we talk, we're arguing. Right? So then why are they choosing to get your attention in this way? Why this? They can get your attention in so many ways. They can get straight A's. They can like hang out and play your favorite music together. You can go for a walk. There's many ways to get your attention. So why are they choosing to annoy you, to do it, to get that. And so I think that's where we have to be able to say like, okay, yeah, there's some conflict here. Why is there conflict? Oh, maybe it's because they're trying to seek connection and maybe it's become a habit in your home. Maybe the only way that they know how to communicate is because you're yelling, they're yelling, and then you make up and everything's fine. And that's the that's the habit ritual.

Alyssa: [00:15:46] Yeah. Well, and that's what I was going to say is like, I think sometimes it just becomes a neural pathway, just becomes that habit of this is how I do this. We even see this with different, like friends of my kid, or the way that he interacts with a grandparent where it's like, oh, this is how I show up and play with this person. This is how I connect with them. That then becomes this habit and pattern, and it takes intention to shift those habits and patterns. When you have your tween or your teen coming to you and they're doing just that, they are annoying you. They're doing the thing that they know is going to push your buttons, etc. what is a way that parents can respond that meets that need for connection and maybe shifts that habit?

Dr. Lockhart: [00:16:36] Yes, I love this question and I do it personally with my 12 and 15 year olds, and I do it with the teens that I see in my practice. I do it with the parents of the teens, and it's the one that works every single time. And it works in terms of because the teen is feeling seen, not because you're getting the behavior or the, you know, the outcome that you think you're going to have, and it's speaking to the real need behind the behavior that's always the most effective, always speaking to the real need. So if they're acting obnoxious and they're trying, they're in this kind of neural pathway of getting into conflict, into a fight with you. You first regulate yourself, right? Like we always talk about all the time on both of our platforms. You tune in with yourself first, because when your teen is in that state of mind, it's going to aggravate you and it's going to set your nervous system on fire. Right? Because if anybody were rude to you in the real world, of course you're going to protect yourself and defend yourself.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:17:33] You're not going to be all like, I feel like we came across on the wrong foot. Like you're not going to do that. That's not a normal way to respond. And it feels fake to teens when you get into that approach, which is why I think people attack gentle parenting and conscious parenting so much because it doesn't feel real. It doesn't feel like a real human response that people would get to. And I think teens feel that it's fake. And so I think the way to get past that is to just speak to the real intention behind the behavior. You know, it seems like you keep calling me names, and it seems like you're trying to get into a fight with me. But I think the real issue is that we haven't really been hanging out, and I've been really busy with work. And you've been busy with school, or you're bored from the summer. And I get it like we're both on each other's nerves. And I've been getting on your last nerve and you certainly are getting on mine.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:18:27] But that's not the kind of relationship I want with you. And I know I think, I think we're kind of in the habit of it. And I think we need to stop it because I adore you too much to have this kind of interaction. So let's reset it. So it's kind of like however you say it based on your personality, your style, the way you speak, and your kid is that you're serving as a mirror and you're showing them not through sarcasm or being analytical or judgy. You're you're mirroring back what you see, the words they're using, the rolling the eyes, the huffing and puffing, whatever it is you're mirroring, you're just describing the behavior that you see. So that because teens have very poor self-awareness and then you're speaking to the real need. So I see this. You're calling me bruh. You're rolling your eyes, you're huffing and puffing. You're stomping around. But I see that what's really happening is that we've both been super busy and we haven't really connected. And so you speak to the real need, and I adore you too much to continue this interaction. And you're telling them what you want and you're speaking from the heart. So that way you're kind of smushing it and saying, no, no, no, I don't I don't want this either. But I'm noticing it and I think you notice it too. Let's do something different. Friend, and I think that's one of the best ways, because then they're feeling seen. They're feeling heard. They don't have to escalate and elevate their voice and their attitude, and they know that you understand them. And I hear that from teens over and over again. One of their biggest gripes with adults and parents is that they feel misunderstood. They don't get me.

Alyssa: [00:19:52] I love this so much because it also it's not just about them. It's not just that here's what's happening for you. It's yeah, I've been working a bunch. You've been in school or I'm getting on your nerves. You're getting on mine. It's it's the both of this, not just. Hey, you're doing all these things. You've been busy with school. You're driving me crazy. You've been all over your sister, driving her nuts like it also pulled the adult piece into it. The other thing I love so much. I was just chatting about this in another interview, is that it's your authentic voice. You're not memorizing a script? No. It makes my skin crawl. When somebody talks to me in a way that it feels for me, like it's a script. Like it's what they think they're supposed to say in that moment versus like, hey, what's going on here? Like, things were fine and then they weren't. And I've noticed it. I don't really know what's going on. I want to figure it out, though, because I love you and that authenticity, I there's somebody very close in my life. Something had just happened and I wasn't sure what it was over the course of like a few interactions, etc. she's like, yeah, I'm still just like noticing this energy. That communication had shifted. And it's exactly. I was like, hi, I don't really know where to start here, but something feels off with us and I feel like our interactions haven't been what they used to be. And I don't know what's going on on your end, but I'm so curious because I want to figure this out. Because I love you too much to say nothing, and it was just the start of us diving into some stuff that had been coming up for them. And it doesn't have to be a perfect script, right? Like you said in your voice, in your cultural context and what that looks like for you, that you don't need to say it the way that I would say it, and you don't have to say it perfectly right as long as you're honest, right?

Dr. Lockhart: [00:21:53] Right. Because I worked with a parent one time where their tween was having a moment after, like a school pickup, and they wanted to go somewhere to eat, and the parent was like, no, we have to go back home. All this stuff. And the kid behind them just started kicking the seat, kicking the seat, kicking the seat. And the parent kept thinking, oh, well, I have to use very gentle words, and I have to use me and I and feel language. And, you know, I feel hurt when.

Alyssa: [00:22:23] I want to throat punch you when you talk to me like that.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:22:25] Right. But I love you. And it's a hard day. Like, it just I was like, oh no, no no, no. And I said, what happened? And they're like, he kicked harder. And I was like, of course he did, because that's not normal. If someone is hitting the back of your seat and it can be very dangerous, you don't feel calm. You feel aggravated. And I think parents are like, well, I don't want I don't want my kid to know I'm mad at them. Well why not? If you kick someone's seat, you should be mad. Now, I'm not saying to go off on them and go all Rambo and be like, oh, you know, I'm gonna turn this car around and beat you down, right? Like. But you have to have a genuine it's that genuine response. And it's the same thing that I do, whether I'm doing a play session with a little kid or a card game with a big kid, it's like, you know, you're playing a game and like they beat you like, oh man, you beat me. Let's try that again. I'm gonna beat you this time, right? And it's really being able to have a genuine response to something. And I think so often I think that's where people are just they're consuming all this parent information and they're getting the wrong message from it. Like, it's okay to be genuine. It's okay to be human. It's okay to have a real emotional response. The regulation isn't that you're always calm. The regulation is about being aware, emotionally intelligent enough to express it, communicate it, and then what are you going to do about it? And then repair when you do screw up, because you will.

Alyssa: [00:23:42] 100% because you will. And that there's a difference between like, I'm pissed and you hear it in my tone and I'm pissed, so I'm beating you, right? That like, we are responsible for our actions in that way. And it doesn't always involve this tone and my body perfectly place or whatever. I'm like, no, I'm pissed at you and I am doing everything I can to not take this further. But I am pissed at you and you might hear that in my voice. In fact, you should hear that in my voice. And that's something you're going to encounter for life. It's interesting because my two kids are a sensory mismatch. They're totally different, different nervous systems. And my son is neuro sensitive. So he's like my energy reader in the room. Like, husband and I are having conflict, even if there's like a pause in the conflict. He's like, what's going on? Right. Like he reads the room. He reads that energy. My daughter is not in a receptive, sensitive. She'll notice, like, oh, that person's crying and she'll comment on it, but goes right back to playing in a way that my son is, like, too sensitive to the energy to, like, just dive back into his play. And with that comes the tone, the body language, all those things he picks up on in a way that she doesn't. So if my tone shifts with him, he's like, ooh, what's that? And like for her, it it takes more for her to notice. Like my tone, my body language, my words.

Alyssa: [00:25:08] Everything has to come together. My volume, all of it has to come together as, like, a package for her. And she's like this is what's going on here. And for him, it's like my body language is off. And he's like, what are you doing that mom? Or he'll say, I can't, I, I had this preschooler who used to say this, and now my son has started saying it. It cracks me up. Say, I can't talk to you with that face on. And what he means is, like, I can tell you're pissed you can't talk to you with that face on. And I think it's so funny. And I'm like, yeah. No, my face is. That is correct. And my daughter's just like, yeah, whatever. And so really looking at, like the kids we have. I just love that so much. It's not a script. And being able to actually say what's happening is so huge. I want to chat for a second about conflict, because I think that it's something that's like a dirty word for a lot of folks. And we're like, there's not supposed to be conflict and we can have this harmonious. If I do everything right, then I will have this regulated household all the time. Everybody's going to be calm. We're not going to have to be in conflict with each other. We can navigate it peacefully without conflict. Like, I think there's this idea for some folks and that if they're in conflict, they've failed. Talk to me about conflict.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:26:25] Yes, conflict can be very healthy. And I always feel that when we're raising kids, and especially as they get into their teenage years, because they should hopefully be launching and leaving your home soon, then it's all training ground, and we are supposed to be building skills and developing habits constantly. So when you are about to perform in a play or in an orchestra or in a game, in a sport, the way that you prepare for the big game or the big performance or the big play is practice and rehearsal, and you do it so that you're doing it in a safe place where you can get guided and taught and develop a discipline structure and kind of move through it with other people who can guide you and walk you through it. And it's the same thing with our teens and tweens that they need to be able to handle conflict at home with their siblings, with their parents, with their grandma, with their cousins, in a hopefully safe and emotionally mature setting with people who know how to handle conflict, that it's not taboo. You don't sweep it under the rug. You don't pretend like it doesn't exist. You don't mock people so that when they go out with friends, when they're with a teacher, with their in a classroom, when they're on a field trip in the world in college dating, they know how to handle it because they've been rehearsing it. So I think conflict is healthy and helpful. But I believe a lot of us millennials, Gen Xers, many of us did not learn it. Gen Z's are teaching us better how to deal with it. But so a lot of us are now raising kids when we didn't really have a good model for it. For me, growing up in the Caribbean with a single mom who was divorced when I was three, two older siblings in a culture and in a family culture that didn't speak about problems we just pretended like they weren't there.

Alyssa: [00:28:22] Same. There are no problem. What problems?

Dr. Lockhart: [00:28:24] Problems? What? And so me, as a child who pushed the boundary, I would ask about things. Well, why do we do it this way? And why can't we talk about that? Why? Why can't we just do it, you know?

Alyssa: [00:28:35] And so stop asking, why would you?

Dr. Lockhart: [00:28:36] Right. And so it was harder for me to deal with conflict because then I went the extreme in relationships and I would confront everything. And then my husband would tell me early on in our marriage, and he's like, well, why did you confront that? And I was like, well, because they needed to know. And I was like, sweetheart, I'm saying this in the most loving way. Not everybody cares what you think. I was like, ouch, but that's true. But it's again, if I didn't learn how to deal with conflict in a way that was safe, how would I know how to do it when I'm out in the world? So conflict is necessary. It is important. It is a developmental task that should be accomplished. I don't think we see it on the CDC task, but I think that's something that we need to know how to do, how to, you know, when you tell your toddler like, oh, you should share. Well, why should they share? They don't have to share. If something is mine, I'm not gonna share it with somebody. If I'm eating chocolate, I don't want to give you none of that. Right. So as they move into the tween and teen years, being able to tell them, like how to deal with conflict with a friend when they're like bad mouthing you or they left you out of the group text, or they're like, whispering about you, or they dropped you as a friend or someone ghosted you on a date.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:29:43] Like, how do you deal with those kinds of things? So I absolutely think the conflict is important, and I believe that we need to do it in a way that is healthy and adaptable, and helping our kids to rehearse it so that they know how to deal with it when it's real. And it's it's the final performance is the final game. They're in a situation and they're like, how do I do this? And a lot in psychology, it's, you know, we talk about a schema that we have to have a mental schema. It's like a file system that we have that we're like, oh, okay. When someone tells me something rude or racist or sexist, this is how I can respond. Got it. These are all my files. Okay? When a teacher then says this. This is what I can say. Well, that was rude. Okay, now I have I have a bunch of different things I can go to. And so I think that's why it's it's very healthy and it's very helpful. I think we shouldn't shy away from it.

Alyssa: [00:30:30] I agree, I love it when we're looking at conflicts so often, our tweens or teens, they're coming to us and they often don't yet have a skill set for the how of like, how do I do this? Right? So you're going to get the door slamming, the eye rolls, the silence, the cutting off. Right, the name calling, or I'm throwing my backpack on the floor because they aren't yet able to say I had a hard time at school or I'm annoyed with you, or I was frustrated when you did this or whatever, and I need to talk about it, or I need to figure it out and do those next steps. And I think it's so key that you noted that a lot of us don't yet have these skills. So a lot of us are building the ship as we're sailing it. Right? And so our kid comes in and they roll the eyes, or they throw the backpack, and now we're triggered and we're like, oh, there's a conflict. But if we're still building those skills to really focus on that us part first, as you mentioned, like so much of our work is what's coming up for me and how do I regulate so that I can be a teacher in this moment so that I can teach? Two things popped up when you were chatting.

Alyssa: [00:31:39] One was the first big fight I remember having with my now husband. We were living in New York City, and we were on a train going back to Brooklyn, where we lived and we were dating and something had happened. I remember what the thing was at this point, and I'm just like yelling at him. I'm mad at him, I'm yelling at him. And he just got off the next train stop, which was not our train stop. And I was like, wait, what? And I like, stayed on till our train stop. And I got off. I go to text him and on my phone I have a text from him that just says, hey, happy to chat about this. I'm not going to hang out while you yell at me, but let me know when you want to talk about it. And I was like, that's not how this works. I yell, you yell back. Eventually we get to a place where people are done yelling and we figure it out. And he grew up in a very different household and at a different skill set. And it was my first introduction to, oh, we can be mad at each other and still treat each other with kindness. That was new to me because I grew up right. But I grew up in a household where conflict was just avoided, and so I never saw how to actually have conflict and how to have healthy conflict.

Alyssa: [00:32:52] And it wasn't that I grew up in a household where people were yelling all the time, or that they were rude to each other all the time, it was that I never had positive models for how to navigate conflict resolution. And so that popped up for me. And then a scene in Grey's Anatomy where it's like early on in Derek and Meredith and they're dating, and he was like, oh, you've never done this before. We're going to get mad at each other sometimes, and then I'm always still going to show up. And she was like, oh yeah, I've never done this before. And that, for a lot of us as adults, is still feeling new to us. Oh yeah, we get to be mad at each other. That's going to happen. Your teen is going to be mad at you sometimes, and we can still be kind to each other, and that we get to model that and then teach them where does the teaching them that skill happen. So in the moment this kid comes, they throw their backpack on the ground, they roll their eyes like you're the stupidest mom, and they slam the door in their room. What happens next? Yeah.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:33:58] Great question. So it all depends. I think so many times parents feel like, well, that was rude. I need to correct this behavior right now. And it becomes an urgent thing because you're offended. I brought you into this world. I took you in, I adopted you. Whatever it is in your situation. How dare you be ungrateful for the life I've given you. We go there. I think many parents go there, right?

Alyssa: [00:34:25] All day long.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:34:26] All day long. Right? Or like I waited so long to have you in my life. You realize what? We went through an IVF in the hospital and the injection, like, what are we go. We really go there. And that's not fair to them.

Alyssa: [00:34:38] No.

Speaker3: [00:34:40] That's just not fair to them.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:34:42] And it's. And again then what happens is we make it about us. And it's like maybe they had a sucky day at school. Maybe someone, a friend just dumped them. Maybe they just failed a class. Maybe they felt body shamed. Maybe they, like so many different things, could have happened. Maybe it has nothing to do with you. And when you asked, how is school? That's the last thing they needed to hear. That's the last thing they wanted to engage in, right?

Alyssa: [00:35:08] So like it sucked. Okay. It sucked. Right? I don't want to talk about it here.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:35:11] Right.

Alyssa: [00:35:11] Yeah.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:35:12] So so then we see this rolling, the eyes huffing and puffing, calling us a name, slamming the door, and we get offended. And then we have to correct the behavior. Because what I hear from parents, my own husband has told me this too, and he's like, well, if we don't say something now, then he's going to grow up thinking that this is okay. No, no, they already know that what they did is not okay. So many teenagers already feel ashamed for their behavior. They have many times they do have insight into it. Maybe not in the moment, but they do have insight. So I think for parents, we need to step back and first say, wow, I feel very offended by their behavior and I feel really angry. Oh, okay, so you might need to go on a rage walk, which my husband and I have done a lot this summer. My kids, we're going on a walk and we go on a rage walk and man, the difference it makes after 30 45 minutes, sometimes an hour and a half. Okay, so sometimes you need to just step up. Sometimes you need to step back and just be like, okay, I need serious regulation, okay? And you don't need to confront it right then and there. Sometimes again, depending on your child. Because if you have the super aware son like you and I both have, they'll have that. Wow, mom. My bad. I'm sorry that I did that. I had a real rough day.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:36:26] Here's what happened I know I offended you, I could see it on your face. I could feel it in the air. Right. Or you may then say, hey it looks like you're having kind of a rough day. I'm going to give you a few minutes, but I'm going to go check in on you or you check in on them and they're like go away. Yeah. It seems like you're not quite ready, but I'm here whenever you're ready. I'm going to check in on you again anyway. I think what parents think is, well, they said go away, leave them alone. And I think, yes, we need to honor those boundaries and we need to honor their request. But we also need to not leave them in their misery and leave them to think that what they're going through is too big for us to handle. And I think that's really easy to do. And I know that parents do that a lot in the toddler stage because they have these big meltdowns and tantrums and they're like, oh, time out, go away. I'm going to go and time out. Whatever it is, I can't deal with this. And then we realize, oh, well, we don't want to leave them in isolation. Okay, time out is wrong. Okay. No, I need to talk to them. Then you overtalk. Okay. Well, some kids don't want that. And it's the same thing with teenagers. Sometimes they need their own time out because they put themselves there because they need to regulate.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:37:29] And then I think sometimes we leave them there too long because we can't handle it, or we don't know what else to do. And then I think then at that moment, then we approached them and really say like, it seems like something went on today and it seems like you're not quite ready to talk about it, but I'm here for you. You know, you're ready to talk a little bit about what happened. And then just kind of opening the door to it, or really, again, always getting curious of what's going on behind the behavior. You know, I noticed that when I asked you about your friend that it really sets you off, that something happened between the two of you again and just kind of getting an open door. But I think it's such a balance between not talking and overtalking the situation and then not leaving them in isolation for too long as well too. So it is a balance. And I think again, there's no perfect formula. It really depends on your home, your culture, your the age of your kid, the personality, your personality. Like it depends on so many different factors. But I think the goal is to regulate, to make sure that you're in touch with the narrative that you're giving yourself, that you don't make it about you, and you don't let them stay in that space by themselves for too long, and you don't push too much. It's that harmonious balance.

Alyssa: [00:38:40] There's an 11 year old in my life who is a like go away person, right? So when he's having a hard time and I had a group of kids and he was in this group and something happened and he was being rude to people, and I was like, hey bud, what's going on? He stormed off and so I went and checked in with him. I was like, hey, whoa! Something must have happened that I missed. And he was like, just go away. Just leave me alone. I was like, okay, great, I'm going to go check in on the group and then come back and check in. And when I came back to him, I just said, hey, I'm going to be over here. I actually have some work to do for work. I'm going to be over here doing some work. If you want to chat, great. If not, that's fine. I'm just going to be chilling. So in the same room as him and I just had my laptop and I was just doing work, and he ended up coming over and we ended up talking about it eventually. But me, my like way in, I mean, I always have work to do, but I didn't actually have work I had to do in that moment. I knew for him he wasn't going to be ready to talk yet. If I came in, I'm just like, okay, I'll be here. But like, you don't have to talk. I think that pressure of my presence would be like a I have to hurry up and get to a place where I can talk or whatever. My presence, plus my lack of focus on him, I think, was the combo that his nervous system needed to be able to open up to me versus there was another person he'd been.

Alyssa: [00:40:09] It turns out, in conflict within the group. And she's like talk to me. Let's go. Like, I want to talk it out. She needs that auditory kind of back and forth, talk it out. And when I'd gone back to the group to check in on them, she gave me this whole rundown. Well, here's what happened. Da da da da da da da da da. And we got to have, like, a back and forth, she and I. And I was like, all right, I'm gonna go support him. Holler at me if you need anything. Here's where I'll be. And that like back and forth with her. She's ready immediately because she has to have that. And that feels way more natural for me. That's how I am. I'm like, give me that auditory. I want to go back and forth and hash it out. And my husband is like this little guy. And I mean early days of conflict. One time, my husband literally got in the shower because I kept following him around in the middle of our conflict, talking and filling all the silence. And he got in the shower because he's like, I can't escape you. Like, where can I go that you're just gonna leave me the hell alone? And so, like, for me, my work is always in. How do I just shut up in this moment? How do I turn off so that there's space for them to regulate, to calm and being able to? I like that you said. Well, it depends, because recognizing who this kid is is so important when it comes to like, okay, we've navigated the conflict. Is there a point in which you address the behavior of the rolling of the eyes, the slamming of the door, the yelling, hurtful things, whatever that is?

Dr. Lockhart: [00:41:35] Well, see, I think that all of those are a manifestation of the conflict, internal conflict that was going on inside. Right. So I think if we start to then go to again the parent mindset of I need to punish that behavior so I could stop, but then you're missing the reason why it was there in the first place, and then you're kind of missing the point. So if you go up to your kid's room and say, I didn't appreciate that, you threw down the backpack and rolled your eyes and called me a name and slammed your door. Then why would they want to talk to you about what's really going on? Again, they're trying to get your attention from that because there's many other ways of getting your attention than doing those things. And so I think if you lead with that, the punishment and you don't do that in my house kind of chat, then you lose the opportunity to connect in a way that they feel safe enough to tell you what was really going on, because you're so busy punishing them for the crap that they just did when they rolled up into the house.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:42:28] Right. And I think that we forget there's many ways of approaching it. So, like, my daughter is the one who doesn't like to deal with issues as much. And so many times the way that I approach that is through texting. Yeah. So when she's shut down, I'll text and that's great. I mean, we'll have long chains going back and forth, and then she's like, okay, it's too much to say now can I just come and talk about it? It's like, yeah, sure. I've done that. Even with therapy clients where they're come on zoom virtually and they'll be like, I feel kind of embarrassed or ashamed about this. Can I just put it in the chat? And I was like, sure. And then we'll just turn off our cameras, turn off our mics, and then they'll just chat. And then I'm like, oh, is that what you really want to talk about? And they're like, yeah, I'm like, okay. And they're like, you don't think it's weird? I'm like, no. So do you realize how long I've been doing this work that is.

Alyssa: [00:43:16] Not even top ten?

Dr. Lockhart: [00:43:17] Yeah, right. And so I think we have to look outside the box of things because people could easily say, oh, this is therapy. You need to be talking through your problems or, you know, this is an issue. We need to address this and punish this, or, you know, we need to have a verbal talk. Not everybody processes things verbally. Some people it needs to be through writing. Some people needs to just be through walking together and getting the energy out. And so I don't necessarily think that we need to address it in that here and now, but I think once the teen starts to talk to you about what's going on, you're mirroring, you're empathizing, you're validating all the stuff that we have learned to do. Then you can say, hey, I know that you had a really rough day and it was really hard when I approached you. But calling me a bunch of names and slamming the door is probably not the best way to go about doing that. What is something you could have done instead? You could have come in. Oh, I could have come in and just said, I have a horrible day. Can I just get 30 minutes to myself? Yeah, exactly. You could have just asked for the time. You didn't have to call me all kinds of names. You could have just approached it differently. So rather than it being like this punishment based lecture, it could just be more, again, building skills, teaching new habits that you did this again, you're just not you're not judging. You're not analyzing, you're not anything. You're just saying mirroring. You're just describing the behavior that you saw and what could you have done instead. And what that's doing is you're just teaching them problem solving skills. You're teaching them emotional regulation, self control that yes, I did this and I could do this instead. You're just giving them options. Yeah. Slamming the backpack on the floor and slamming your door is one way to communicate how angry you are. What are some other ways that you could have communicated your day, how your day was, and then you're just giving them those skills.

Alyssa: [00:45:06] And that key being like it's not right in the moment. Like if Zach in the moment was like instead of yelling at me on the train, what else could you do? Right now? I'm like, yeah, I want to punch you in the face, right? But later on when he's like, hey, next time, instead of yelling at me on the train, you can just say blah, blah, blah. Or we could say, like, I need a minute. Or you could say, I need to talk to somebody then because I don't need a minute. Right? Like what? And figuring out different strategies outside the moment. If you think about that for yourself as an adult, it becomes real clear real quick.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:45:41] Well, and let me tell you something too, Alyssa. Like, I just had a situation. I was just talking to my kids about this this morning. I had a situation where I had a partnership with a large company, and they were doing a sponsored ad, and there was a very rude Comment from one of the viewers. And I saw it and I really wanted to respond. Instead, I screenshotted it. And then I created a reel and I saved it, and I did not post it. It was kind of my way of venting about it, because I also have other things coming up that I cannot be in a controversial position right now, and I don't think anything good will come out of posting it, but I needed to be able to process it and work through it. Yes, and I told them about it today and I said, and I said so for me, I saw it, took it in, I was fully offended by it. And then I did a video, but I chose not to post. And it's just my way of being able to process it, to make sense of it and to hold it. Will I post it one day? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe I'll just delete it. Who knows? But it's like we can feel all kinds of feelings. You don't have to react to every single one of them.

Alyssa: [00:47:01] That's right.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:47:02] And so I think that's part of modeling that conflict resolution and emotional regulation skills for our kids, too.

Alyssa: [00:47:08] 100%. And you found a way for you to feel in control where you're like, now I can do something if I want. I have that real ready to go. And now I get to choose. Am I doing something or not?

Dr. Lockhart: [00:47:20] Right.

Alyssa: [00:47:20] And like, got to regain that control, which I also love. I'm so stoked for this book. I have a million more questions and wish we had more time, but I'm so grateful for the time you've given us. Doctor Ann-Louise Lockhart, where can people find you and snag Love the teen? You have a practical guide to transforming conflict into connection.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:47:42] Yes. So here's the book here, and I'm very excited about it. And they can go to my Instagram page at Lockhart. In my bio there's a link they can go to my more updated website at doctor Ann-louise Lockhart. Com and get more information. Pre-order comes out on October 28th, and just really be able to learn that they're not on their own in this journey. Parenting teens and tweens can be rough and there is no one right way to do it. It's more. I think the thing that goes through this book is just about the connection. The connection is the key to the relationship, and that's the thing that makes all the difference. So. So yeah, that's what they can find me and devour it.

Alyssa: [00:48:28] Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for putting this resource out into the world that we all get to dive into and benefit from. You're the bomb.

Dr. Lockhart: [00:48:37] Thank you. Thanks for your support.

Alyssa: [00:48:39] Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

Rachel: [00:48:48] So last night things kind of went off the rails here with Nora.

Alyssa: [00:48:56] What happened?

Rachel: [00:48:57] It was like after a long weekend of sensory mismatch in our house. Like, she's constantly at able. He can interact and interact, and then he can't anymore, and then she gets antagonistic. It's a cycle. And I had been dealing with it all weekend. Whatever. So I they fought a lot yesterday like for hours. And then they finally were like kind of in a good place. And I was like, all right, I'm gonna work out. Abel was like, I need to take a bath. I'm like, sick. He's in the bath, I'm working out, and Nora is going into the bathroom and I'm like, hey, I can't have you in there while I'm working out because I don't have the capacity to come intervene. And she was like, no, I'm going in there. And I was like, no, you're not. I need to finish this like it's ten minutes are left of this, and I know that I'm not going to be able to respond kindly if I get pulled into a fight in the bathroom. So you're not going in the bathroom. She flipped out. She didn't feel seen by me because I wasn't like, I know that you really want to connect with Abe. I know you don't like it when you're when you have to hang out by yourself. I didn't want to do any of that. I didn't feel like I owed that to her in the moment. So I was just like, sometimes.

Alyssa: [00:50:15] I'm just like, can I just say the thing and you'll just be like, okay, fine.

Rachel: [00:50:19] Like, for once, okay?

Alyssa: [00:50:21] For once.

Rachel: [00:50:22] I don't expect it often. It's like maybe quarterly. So anyway, so there's this back and forth of her, like telling me that I'm not gonna listen to you. I am going into the bathroom. And I was like, no, you're not. And if you continue to speak rudely to me, I'm going to ask you to take space in your bedroom. That really set her off, because not only could she not hang out with Abe, but then she was going to be isolated. Her nightmare. There's this whole back and forth and she's shouting at me and I'm like, staying medium Medium.com, and then after a couple more back and forths of her being like, I'm not listening to you, you have the worst ideas. You don't trust me. Listen to what I'm saying. I'm not gonna fight with him. I was just like, I can't with you right now, okay? I'm not arguing. I'm not explaining myself. This is a boundary that I'm setting for my own behavior, which is that I'm not breaking up fights right now. So as a result, you can't be with him. Did not go well. I had to. She went into her room, slammed the door repeatedly, and I was like holding the door so that it wouldn't break and reminding her, like if you break your door, I'm not replacing it.

Alyssa: [00:51:28] And then she's like, great, we'll be hanging out all the time.

Rachel: [00:51:31] Yeah. She's like cool punishment to yourself. And then she stopped slamming. So I like walked away because now we're no longer having this back and forth. She's wanting it again. And so she starts just throwing stuff out of her bedroom toys, her hatch just like buckwild. And then she was like, I'm coming out because I need to take a shower. And I was like, you're not. We're not doing anything until we're both calm and we can chat about this. Oh, the situation just went on for there was a time when she was like, okay, I'm calm, come talk to me. And I was like, oh, nope, I'm not gonna talk if you still can't speak kindly to me. And she was like, you're ruining this. And it like, triggered another spiral. So it was like quite an extended ordeal. We did repair before bed, but it was like a solid hour of this back and forth of her wanting to, like, hurry up and get it over with this discussion, but in that was still being super rude. And me not being willing to do that and that pissing her off. And it was just this really not fun hour and a half.

Alyssa: [00:52:38] It's always nice to hear these stories because I'm like, do I have the only rude children on the planet? And every time I hear stories about other kids being rude to their parents, especially kids like Nora. Where front facing. You're always on the outside. Like we're gonna receive a regulated kind, Nora. Or at least kind. Maybe not regulated, but kind. Masking, Nora. That's right. And you're gonna get her, like, dysregulated, unhinged fully. Here's who I am. And of course, that's. I mean, that's what we get from my kids, too. I yesterday was chatting with one of Mila's teachers in childcare. She's 21 months old or something like that. And they said something about her being like, really quiet at school. And I was like, what? I was like, we just went on this hike and she, for two straight hours in a hiking backpack, just talked for two straight hours. It did not cease. And the idea of her being in a space with people and being referred to as like quiet makes zero sense to me, because not only does she not stop talking, but she's loud like she will just scream for no reason, or she'll go to say something and just says it loudly.

Alyssa: [00:54:12] Quiet is so far from a word I would ever use to describe her. And I think it's fascinating, right? Like, who are kids are out in the world versus at home. And knowing for me, knowing that my kids can show up in the world in a way that will serve them, that will lead to connection or access to things. If they want to go play with these kids or go do this activity. If I know that they can show up in a way that helps support their access to that, which includes, you know, not screaming at the top of your lungs or throwing things or just saying outrageously rude things to one another. When I know that they can do that, it makes the at home disaster easier. I'm like, okay, yeah, you are holding it together for everybody else throughout the day, and I can handle this. It's just so quickly that I jump from like, they're being rude at home to they're going to have no skills to survive this world.

Rachel: [00:55:31] For me, it's the, like triggers for my childhood and, like, narratives I have from childhood of like, never would I have been able to have an outburst like that, you know.

Alyssa: [00:55:46] But I think never because they wanted me to be a respectful, obedient human out in the world. And I.

Rachel: [00:55:53] Think.

Alyssa: [00:55:54] They thought if it was happening at home, it was happening out in the world. And I feel that as a parent where I'm like, I want you to be a respectful, not necessarily obedient, but respectful, kind human out in the world.

Alyssa: [00:56:07] And if I'm seeing this at home, is this an indicator of who you are out in the world? Yeah.

Rachel: [00:56:13] For sure.

Alyssa: [00:56:14] And so when it's not, I'm like, okay, cool.

Rachel: [00:56:17] Oh, yeah, I.

Alyssa: [00:56:18] Mean, not cool. I don't love this, but like, fine, I don't have to I don't have to change who you are and make a massive overhaul to my parenting because it is already like working out in the world 100%.

Rachel: [00:56:29] I don't like worry about Nora's character, like who she is when. And also, it's unusual for her to get that unhinged. I'm pretty sure she was hungry. But it doesn't. It's just, like, annoying to me in the moment and totally also like she and I have done this enough times where like, I know we'll come back together and like chat it out. Whatever the child who sometimes I worry more about what this stuff is Abel because Abel like, shows up as who he is, like just across the board.

Alyssa: [00:57:04] Yeah, he doesn't yet have the social skills like differentiation piece.

Rachel: [00:57:09] No, no, he doesn't like, read the room.

Rachel: [00:57:12] And so he's the one that I like. He gets in trouble at school or has never gotten in trouble. Just so so different. So yeah it's like a different internal process for me when I'm dealing with each of them, and also unfairly to Nora, because she's my kid who usually has her shit together when she loses it. I'm just like, come on. Yeah. You know?

Alyssa: [00:57:36] Totally. I need you to have it together. Actually, this morning on the way to school, he was being very rude to Mila and just, like, screaming and then like, kicking from his car seat, trying to kick her and whatever. And she's like, then screaming back and he's telling her it's too loud. I'm like, stop screaming at her. Then you are the problem. It's you. And he. It was just this cycle and I'm sitting in traffic on the way to school because there's so much construction near my house right now. And then it gets quiet for a second, and Mila was like, Seiji kicked me. And I was like, he did try to kick you. Yeah. And he was like, stop it, stop that. And then she just is quiet and she goes, Seiji, yell at me. I'm like, yeah, you didn't yell at you. And I was like, you know what? Seiji is feeling really mad right now, and he's still learning what to do when he feels mad, at which point he's then screaming and kicking that he's not mad. And he does know what to do when he feels mad. And I said, oh, I'm. And then he was like, stop talking to me. And I said, oh, I'm sorry, I'm not talking to you. I'm actually talking to your sister right now. She's a little confused why you're trying to kick her and you're screaming at her. So I'm trying to help her understand. And then he told me I was too loud and I needed to stop talking. Or else he was never gonna invite me anywhere for the rest of my life. And she's like, you know, when it gets that absurd, it actually, for me, feels easier than if it's not that absurd. Because when it's that absurd, I'm like, there's nothing rational happening in your brain right now.

Rachel: [00:59:19] Totally.

Alyssa: [00:59:20] I do want to teach you to not kick your sister or try to or scream at her. And that will happen. We will teach you that slash. She'll start to do it to you. And that's what's been the pattern is when she hits like new developmental spaces, where she then is doing the thing he's been doing to her. And then he starts to complain about it. We're like, yeah, she learned that from you. She thinks that's what she's supposed to do right now. That's what we've taught her so far. And then that usually has been his behavior change moment where then he will stop doing that thing because he doesn't want to keep teaching her that thing.

Alyssa: [01:00:05] And I said to him I was like at some point her legs are going to be long enough and she's going to think that when she gets mad or feels annoyed with you in the car, she's supposed to scream at you and try and kick you. And I said, if that's what you would like to teach her, you should keep doing exactly what you're doing. If you don't want to teach her that and you want some ideas, let me know.

Rachel: [01:00:26] All that's coming up for me is a phrase that I heard so much in my childhood, which is, here's a little taste of your own medicine. Oh, yeah. Sage, you're going to be getting tastes of your own medicine, buddy.

Alyssa: [01:00:37] That's real. And I was like, yeah, that's if this is working for you. If her doing this to you would be okay for you. Great. No notes. If you would like some different ideas for what to do, let me know. Happy to help you.

Rachel: [01:00:52] Oh my gosh.

Alyssa: [01:00:53] I am not gonna scream it over you though.

Rachel: [01:00:56] I a similar dynamic happens where, like, Norah will come running to me and be like able to scratch me and he tried to bite me. I'll be like, okay, what happened right before that? And it's some kind of antagonistic bullshit. And it's like, if you think that you're going to continue to press his buttons after he's saying, no, no, no a billion times and he's just not going to react. That's not reality.

Alyssa: [01:01:22] Apparently I've been saying this phrase wrong my whole life, which is not a shocker because I don't know how any of them work. Idioms. I don't know any of them, but is that correct? Me yesterday. So I'm going to try and say it right this time. If you play with matches. Be prepared for fire or something along those lines. I was saying like, yeah, if you play with fire, get ready to catch on fire. And I was like, I don't think that's it. But apparently it's something about matches. But that's what comes up for me here. I'm like, yeah, this is cause and effect. And if you want to connect and you want somebody's attention, I'll give you some other ideas. If you choose to do it this way, here's how you're going to get that attention. It's going to be through a bite or a scratch or a hit or whatever.

Rachel: [01:02:15] Yeah. After he's told you no, like legit ten times or more. Like he can only take he's I mean, he's human, just like you.

Alyssa: [01:02:22] Correct. Yeah. Oh, all of a bandwidth and a capacity. Seems like I'm a.

Rachel: [01:02:27] Little cynical today.

Alyssa: [01:02:30] I mostly again, like, I come back to. Are they doing these things out in the world? Does she go up to other friends and like, is that how she's trying to get attention or connection, you know? Then I look at, okay, what skills need to be supported or fostered so that she can thrive in the world. And if it's not, then I'm like, what do I need in place? So I don't lose my ever loving shit on a regular basis with my kids?

Rachel: [01:02:52] Yeah, that's what that's where we are. And usually I am able to like yesterday was unique in that the dynamic between them went on and on and on despite like multiple interventions, that is not the norm. How's it going?

Alyssa: [01:03:10] I was I'm like sitting. Oh, you know what it is. So, you know, I've been on book tours and traveling the world and so I have not been at my desk. In fact, I was trying to figure out the last time I worked at my desk, and it's been legit weeks. And this chair that I sit in, I usually have like a little, like flat sheet, actually, for a bed that I've folded up that I positioned exactly how I like it to, like, kind of like sitting on a bolster.

Rachel: [01:03:39] Tilt your pelvis a little bit.

Alyssa: [01:03:41] Yeah, exactly. And it's the coziest way for me to sit here. And since I have not been at my desk, Zach has sometimes been using my desk. And apparently he doesn't like my bolster because it's gone. Yeah. So that's what's happening over here. Who are we chatting about today?

Rachel: [01:04:00] Okay, this is parenting. Teens and tweens with Doctor Lockhart.

Alyssa: [01:04:06] Are Doctor and Louise Lockhart. I love her. We were just actually texting when I was at LAX. Like, awaiting my red eye to come home. She had a horrendous trip home from New York City and ended up being awake for like 22 hours or maybe longer or something. And yeah, we were just we were just messaging about the the perils of traveling. I love her. I love her work in the teen space because I love her respect for teens.

Rachel: [01:04:42] Yeah, one thing that stuck out to me, which actually applies really well with that whole blowout I have with Nora, was rules without relationship equal rebellion.

Alyssa: [01:04:54] I love it. Say it again. Rules without relationship. Equal rebellion. Yes, yes, yes. That's me. That's me as a human.

Rachel: [01:05:02] Okay, well, that's Nora, and I didn't want to give her relationship in that moment. I just wanted to give her the rules. And it just was. It didn't. It didn't fly. And I can think of so many examples of that. And it I think like this is where I think she mentioned this, but I think this is where people get turned off of gentle parenting because they think it's like an absence of rules and respectful parenting and respecting children does not mean that there are no rules or expectations. It just means there's a foundation of relationship in there. And yeah, that one liner is so good for me just to kind of like keep in my head of like when I am setting boundaries or limits, if I don't take the time to like have a relationship connection touchpoint, my children may not want to cooperate with me.

Alyssa: [01:05:54] Yeah, correct. Just last night, actually, we had people over and sage all of a sudden had this large metal stave situation in his hand. And I saw it. He walked by us and there was a gaggle of kids and adults and everybody hanging out in my backyard. And he walked by and I said, oh what's your plan for that? And one of the other moms there was like, I love that sentence. I've heard you say it a million times, but what's your plan? And I was like, yeah, that for me, is the line that buys me time to figure out what my next steps are, while also inviting him in to be in relationship, where he then can say, oh, here's what I was planning to do with this, yada yada, and I get to learn more and then establish a rule or a boundary that makes sense, because if I just said, hey, yeah, we're not going to be carrying metal staves around, like, I don't know. I don't know if staves, even the word I'm looking for is like, what are you talking about?

Rachel: [01:07:05] Okay.

Alyssa: [01:07:05] It was like a big stick, but it was metal. Maybe, like, came out of our stake. Might be it.

Rachel: [01:07:14] Yeah. So. S.t.a.k.e.

Alyssa: [01:07:17] Sure. But not like it was. It was his size.

Rachel: [01:07:21] Like it was as.

Alyssa: [01:07:21] Tall.

Rachel: [01:07:21] As him. I gotta look up the word stave really quick. Okay.

Alyssa: [01:07:31] It's a vertical wooden post or plank in a building or other structure. Honestly, that's more like what this is.

Rachel: [01:07:39] Okay. How big was it?

Alyssa: [01:07:41] It was as tall as him. It like, goes into. I ended up finding out where it came from because I was like, where did you find this? We have, like, a metal gate on our yard that can close. It's like two doors that close together. Right. And it goes into a like hole on one of them that keeps that door shut. So then you can shut the other one and just, like, hook it together.

Rachel: [01:08:04] Okay.

Alyssa: [01:08:04] And he had pulled it out. I stand by Steve. I upon further review.

Rachel: [01:08:10] I'm still questioning it, but I'll allow it for the sake of this interview.

Alyssa: [01:08:15] Thank you. And I realized, like it is a phrase that I say that is the opportunity for me to gather my thoughts and calm down a little bit so that I can respond with intention and set rules on a foundation of relationship where he gets to share his plan and what he was thinking. And then as he's sharing, I can be calming my nervous system and asking myself like, okay, what are the actual dangers of this? And sometimes it's dangerous, or sometimes it's that he's pulling things from every cabinet and every spot in the house and making some sort of pile. And I'm saying, you know what? I recognize that you have a really cool idea you're trying to execute. And the last time you pulled all this stuff out, cleaning all of it up felt really overwhelming for you. And I'm about to start dinner, and I'm not going to be available to help you. If you don't have the capacity to clean all of this up, I'm not going to be there to do it for you. Which means that before you do anything else, like watch a show before bed or whatever, it's going to be your responsibility to clean this stuff up. I can set rules from a place of relationship. When I first asked that question, and I remember thinking that when I was interviewing Doctor Lockhart and she shared that, I'm so glad you brought it up, because I remember thinking, what is it that I do to pull back into relationship when I have to set a boundary or a rule or enforce one?

Rachel: [01:10:14] Yeah. We also I use that phrase and what happens sometimes and actually maybe even most times is that after they tell me their Either plan. The original boundary that I was going to set doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't apply anymore. And so once I figure out like and it doesn't mean that it's a free for all, but once I figure it out, it also gives me a moment to like, think flexibly about it and like, am I just saying no because I'm trying to power over? Or like, is there a way for me to address safety issues and capacity issues but still allow some iteration of this? And oftentimes there is a way to allow some iteration of their plan that is still safe and does take into account that example that you just shared. Like I will say the same thing. Like, guys, I'm getting ready to pack lunches and cook dinner. I'm not going to be available to help you clean this up. So as you're choosing materials for this, keep that in mind. And just setting those expectations of like, yes, you can do this, but I'm not your maid. So as you're pulling all your art supplies out or you're setting up your nerf like guardianship terrace thing out of every piece of furniture that we own. Here are my boundaries for how I'm going to be a part of or not be a part of this.

Alyssa: [01:11:34] Yeah, and it's the holding of that that sucks. That then when.

Rachel: [01:11:37] I hate it.

Alyssa: [01:11:38] It's like the clean up time and I'm not available and I'm not helping. And then that's where the shit hits the fan.

Alyssa: [01:11:47] And that part is the hard part for me. Where then the next time I want to be like no we're not doing this because the last time you lost your ever loving shit when it was time to clean up and you didn't want to be a part of that part of this or whatever it is, and I want to avoid that hard.

Rachel: [01:12:05] Totally. Also, because it takes a lot of your own emotional and nervous system energy to stay calm in the holding of the boundary. And it's freaking exhausting because you're like, I already told you this. We went over this. Remember before we started this? This is what's going on in my head. I'm thinking, like when we went over this, I told you X, Y, and Z, And now you're making my life difficult because you don't want to do x, y, and Z, which you already agreed to an hour ago. You know, it's that whole thing, and it's like I have dishes to do and I want to like I also what irritates me, and I try to communicate this in a loving way to my kids is like, the more time you and I spend fighting about cleanup or whatever it might be, the less time we then have to be connected and in relationship before our scheduled demands. Something else of us. And I hate that. And that will trigger me into, like a very irritable space very quickly. And I have to talk myself down from that. But I there are times when I've said like, hey, the more time I spend cleaning up your messes, the less time I have to play with you.

Alyssa: [01:13:08] That's such a kinder way than what I said the other day. Which was, is this how you want to spend our life together?

Rachel: [01:13:18] What did he say?

Alyssa: [01:13:20] Yeah.

Rachel: [01:13:20] Yeah, I knew it, I knew it.

Alyssa: [01:13:26] Because that makes no sense to a freaking four and a half year old like that. Makes no sense to anybody except in my brain.

Rachel: [01:13:34] And when I pulled those one liners on Abel, he'll just be like, I don't care.

Alyssa: [01:13:39] I don't care. So she's just like, yeah, and why are you yelling about it? This is, of course, how I want to spend our life together. Which what does that even mean?

Rachel: [01:13:50] Which is even more like I can just feel like a visceral you just like.

Speaker5: [01:13:57] I'm like, no it isn't. You don't know that you're only living in this house till you're 18. And then this is you're going to be gone forever and off doing your own things. And this is how we're spending.

Alyssa: [01:14:05] Our time together. Yeah, that's what happens inside for me. And I have to, like, really, really pull it back.

Rachel: [01:14:15] Yeah. I mean, I think to getting back to this, like, what's your plan phrase? It connects also to something else she spoke about, which was when kids don't feel heard, they will escalate. So we have the opportunity to make them feel heard. Or we can power over and they will escalate and push back harder, and we will get stuck in that power struggle of, I want to dominate over you. And your child is saying, I'm not going to let you. I don't feel understood. I don't feel connected. I don't want to cooperate.

Alyssa: [01:14:44] I don't feel seen. Yeah. And for me, I look back at my teen years and stuff as a I'm a high connection seeker. And when I didn't feel seen, which was often in my childhood, I would I ended up engaging in dangerous and risky behavior in an effort to feel seen where they, like, found cigarettes in my purse. And there was a part of me that felt jazzed that they even noticed that I was alive and I had a purse.

Alyssa: [01:15:19] And then they just broke the cigarettes in half and put them in the garbage. I was like That didn't work. Nobody asked me why do you have cigarettes. What's going on. Nobody saw me still. And then I was sneaking out and going to parties and then having parties at my house where I had a Dalmatian. And one time somebody drew more spots on.

Rachel: [01:15:40] My dog with a Sharpie.

Alyssa: [01:15:42] Why did I, in my life. What? I had a dog. Always. My whole life.

Rachel: [01:15:48] I could not believe. This is the first time I'm hearing this.

Alyssa: [01:15:51] Yeah. Patch. He was a good dog. You have this narrative that I'm not a dog person. Which is not true.

Rachel: [01:15:57] No. I think you like dogs. I think you're not like a. I wouldn't call you an animal person, but I think of the animals. You do like dogs.

Alyssa: [01:16:07] I think it's because I don't really like nature.

Rachel: [01:16:09] I think that's why. Yes.

Alyssa: [01:16:11] Yeah. Where I'm like, I actually really love dogs. For years and years, all I requested for like, dates or birthdays or anything was to go horseback riding with Zach. Like I love certain animals.

Rachel: [01:16:22] Certain being the key word. Hey, you know what, though? It's like you not knowing that I played soccer.

Alyssa: [01:16:26] Correct? That was a shocker to me, too. Yeah. That's fair. But anyway, somebody drew spots on patch with a black Sharpie, which is, you know, rude and also funny at the same time. But because I had had a party at my house and when my parents like a found actual solo cups and.

Rachel: [01:16:47] Empty.

Alyssa: [01:16:47] Bottles of no actual patches, my dog when they found patches, extra spots, and they found solo cups just like in a drawer that I tried to hide but was a dumb teenager. And bottles of Zima in my bottom dresser drawer that I maintained. I have no idea who put those there. I was like, somebody came into our house and put bottles of Zima in your dresser, and I was like, they must have Must've no idea how they got there. Never seen them before. Straight faced. Super straight faced. I still, the end result was I was grounded. I no one ever went deeper, right? And said, like, what's going on here?

Rachel: [01:17:34] Yeah.

Alyssa: [01:17:34] What's happening?

Rachel: [01:17:35] Why do you why do you feel like you should be smoking cigarettes or hiding alcohol? Like something going on? Had something happened?

Alyssa: [01:17:43] Yeah. Never once did that question come up. They just tried to. They always troubleshot the behavior. And when I think about this and and Doctor Lockhart's work and that idea that if they do not feel seen and heard, things escalate. I'm like, yeah, I'm a testament to this. When they do not feel seen and heard, things escalate. Yeah, we will continue to try and get that need met. Not consciously. I wasn't throwing parties, and it wasn't until a decade plus after throwing parties and smoking cigarettes and all that jazz, that I could look back and say, oh, I just wanted someone to notice me. I wanted to feel seen. It wasn't conscious.

Rachel: [01:18:30] No, because it's a survival mechanism which often aren't conscious.

Alyssa: [01:18:34] Correct.

Rachel: [01:18:35] I mean, Nora wasn't throwing her hatch out her door and thinking, oh, this is how mom's going to connect with me. She was just thinking, like, my body doesn't feel safe. Yeah, I'm out of control.

Alyssa: [01:18:46] Exactly. And this is the problem with when we only respond to these surface behaviors and we don't meet that need. The kid doesn't usually know that they have a need driving the behavior. They need us to be the detective, to figure out what is driving this behavior so that we can help them a build awareness of, oh, did you want my attention? You wanted me to notice you. Something must be going on. I'm so curious about what's happening for you. They want us to help them build awareness of. And the tools for asking for those needs to be met.

Rachel: [01:19:30] Yeah, which takes us slowing down a little bit.

Alyssa: [01:19:33] Correct. And getting curious. And that is what the. Tell me about your plan is that I didn't have in my childhood. Nobody was curious about my plan. There was just a no. We're not going to use a metal stave in the backyard hanging out with people. That's not safe. Put it down. Yeah, there was no curiosity about my plan or what I was creating or what I was doing. And so then I was like, okay, great. And I would put it down over in a bush, and then I would have found a way to sneak it out and continue to use it.

Rachel: [01:20:04] Right.

Alyssa: [01:20:06] Not to be defiant, but because I had a need for connection and probably that metal stave was something I was bringing to the table with the group of kids, and we were going to make a thing or do a thing, and it was all connection focused. Correct. And if we as the adults can slow down and get curious and connect with these kiddos, it's a game changer. Super stoked for her book to get out into the world. Love the team you have. It's so good. It's so, so good.

Alyssa: [01:20:36] Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at Voices of Your Village. Com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at CW. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the gram and tag. To let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.