How to Raise Kids Who Participate in Taking Care of the Home with Lori Sugarman-Li

 00:00:00    Alyssa

You're listening to Voices of Your Village. And in this episode, I got to dive in with Lori Sugarman -Li about how to raise kids who participate in taking care of the home. You'll hear about it in this episode, like it's something that's been a challenge for me is really looking at taking care of the home, doing dishes, all that jazz versus playing with Sage and just hanging out and not doing all of those things when he's asleep. And I think I really just feel this pull to not have all of our time be spent on household things when I'm out of work and when he's awake. We got to have a real honest conversation about it. Lori believes deeply in the power of families. She's passionate about her work and the culture shift aiming to articulate the value and visibility of unpaid work. Her career is a communication strategist combined with a decade devoted to full -time care of her family, community, and children's charities worldwide, served as the inspirational backdrop for her professional relaunch as a coach, speaker, and author. She's dedicated to fostering meaningful conversations within families, encouraging them to contemplate how they care for one another in their shared space. Lori, her husband, and her two sons are Canadian -born and live steps from Lake Michigan in Chicago. I am so curious to hear your takeaways and kind of what comes up for you as you're diving into this and if this hits home head on out and snag her book, Our Home, out now and ready for you to dive into. Will you do me a favor if you are enjoying this podcast, if it's serving you, please take a minute to rate and review the podcast it helps other folks find these free episodes so that they can dive into this work with us and I would love to hear from you. Take a screenshot of you tuning in and come on over to Instagram, tag @seed.and.sew and let's continue the conversation over there. All right folks, let's dive in. 

00:02:11    Alyssa

Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together. 

00:02:33    Alyssa

Hello! 

00:02:34    Lori

Hi! 

00:02:35    Alyssa

Hey. Good morning, how are you? 

00:02:39    Lori

I'm doing great, how are you? 

00:02:41    Alyssa

I'm doing pretty well. Just nursed my almost four month old and passed her off for a snooze. 

00:02:50    Lori

Sweetheart, oh, that's so lovely. How's it going? 

00:02:53    Alyssa

It's pretty good. I have a three -year -old as well, and yeah, my youngest, Mila, is refusing all bottles, so that's a fun transition back to work, but other than that, honestly, going pretty well. I

00:03:12    Lori

t's a jam -packed time, and it's full of joy and full of nonstop work, and before you know they're 11 and 13. And where did it all go? 

00:03:27    Alyssa

100%. And that's I, it was just saying yesterday, actually in therapy, I was like, everything's just a season. And when I can really see things as like, it's a season, then it doesn't feel overwhelming. Like she's not going to nurse and only rely on my body for the rest of her life. Like it's a season and we'll figure it out and it'll be gone and all that. 

00:03:50    Lori

And this is a perspective that I gained not while I was in this stage that you're in, but thankfully at least at some point, which is, you know, sometimes we get this feeling of like, oh, like I just need to make it to the weekend or I just need to make it through this stage or I just need to make it. And I realized what I was doing in essence was like wishing time away. 

00:04:14    Alyssa

Literally you were in my therapy session yesterday. I was like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to wish it away because this part's hard right now, because then I am going to miss the really rad parts and her just snuggled on my body asleep. I want to be present for that too. 

00:04:36    Lori

And the thing is, and it's so great that I can offer you this from 10 ,000 miles away from where you are, because of course I wasn't feeling this and realizing this when I was in the moment, but like the hard parts are the rad parts too. 

00:04:53    Alyssa

Sure. 

00:04:54    Lori

Because you're growing and stretching in ways that like you don't even realize right now. And you know, when you come out of this stage and I know you're so educated and so skilled in all this stuff--

00:05:05    Alyssa

No, give it all to me. 

00:05:07    Lori

Credentials beyond what I have. But the one thing that I wish I had done, and you know, all these new mothers are given like baby journals and recording all the baby milestones, the opportunity I would have loved to have done and started a little bit later was to record my own in that phase. And the ways I noticed myself changing, the ways I noticed my patience growing or my grace extending or expanding or things that I noticed were hard for me or difficult for me or whatever, just taking a minute to reflect and record. You know, it's important for all the soft reasons, but it became important too for like reentry into the workforce, to be able to articulate like achievements and growth and contributions and all these things that we'll talk about this, but like are not counted for this stage for women so often. 

00:06:07    Alyssa

Okay. Yes. Huge. 

00:06:09    Lori

Oh my God. We should hit record. 

00:06:11    Alyssa

Oh, we're recording. We're recording sister. So we're off to the races. I had recently interviewed the founder of Ceres Chill. I'm not sure if you know that brand. I used it personally. It's like a thermos for breast milk. So you're not carrying a cooler around. It's incredible. Like, wish I had it with Sage and have used it with Mila. And I will like, you know, Haakaa at night on one side while she's nursing and then just dump it into this thermos. I don't have to go to the fridge at night. I don't have to whatever. 

00:06:42    Lori

Genius. 

00:06:42    Alyssa

Awesome. But we were chatting about this where she was like, one of my pieces of advice is like before you are going on maternity leave, write down all the value that you bring, all of these things that you excel at, basically your resume again. Because then when you're in the thick of it and you're like, oh my gosh, I can't even take a shower today. And you feel like sometimes a shell of a human or like you don't feel successful or you don't feel like you're thriving. It's this opportunity to be like, no, this I am, I have all these skills, 

00:07:20    Lori

I am all of this. 

00:07:20    Alyssa

So this is still all of me. And now I'm up and leaking from all the holes and all that jazz. And I'm still all of this. 

00:07:29    Lori

Yeah. A hundred percent. 

00:07:31    Alyssa

Yeah. 

00:07:31    Lori

And I was listening to, in preparation for this, I was listening to a few of your other beautiful pods. And I heard you reflecting on just your body and how magical it is that just in your existence, you are like creating life without even telling anything to do anything. Like it's just magically happening inside of you. Like what a fabulous thing to reflect on and a gift to give. 

00:07:57    Alyssa

Yeah, it's nuts. And even now it's like, I'm nursing and I don't have to tell my body what to do. It's just doing it. And that's bonkers. Or, you know, she won't take a bottle, but if she's anywhere near a boob, she'll give it a whirl. And like that, she just knows how to do that. It's wild. 

00:08:20    Lori

And also, that is like, that's not the case for everybody. 

00:08:24    Alyssa

100%. 

00:08:25    Lori

I mean, I'll tell you what, nursing did not come easily to me. I mean, the pressure I was put under to deliver on that as if my body just was expected to and it wasn't for whatever reason. And the number of needles I stuck in myself and the number of bottles of Guinness that I drank, like trying to get everything flowing and still failing and managing the weight of that and not passing that to the baby. Oh my gosh, the expectations, right? 

00:09:02    Alyssa

It's wild. And like expectations from where, right? Like what does it really look like and what does it look like for us to be able to observe those expectations and then make our own choice? Like what do I value? And maybe I value my mental health over nursing. 

00:09:24    Lori

Yes, yes

00:09:24    Alyssa

And that makes total sense. 

00:09:27    Lori

Total sense. 

00:09:28    Alyssa

If it wasn't something that easily happened for me, my journey might be different. Mine is the opposite end where I'm like, yeah, Sage never took a bottle either. It was hard for my mental health and I felt so trapped a lot of the time of my body physically needs to be close to him at all times. Yeah, and now I noticed that same feeling coming up again and it's like I had been an infant toddler teacher. I've taught so many kids how to take bottles. I can't teach my own, right? 

00:10:01    Lori

Isn't that fascinating? 

00:10:03    Alyssa

Yeah. And just, you know, I'm sure if I dropped her off at child care for long enough, eventually she'd take a bottle. 

00:10:10    Lori

For sure. 

00:10:11    Alyssa

And I have the flexibility to pop out a nurse her between interviews and presentations. And so she doesn't get to that point. Yeah, just the give and take, but definitely have to wrestle with like I'm failing at the ability to be able to give her a bottle or to teach her to do this when I've done it for so many other kids. 

00:10:31    Lori

Oh my gosh. I mean, the opportunity to extend grace to ourselves is something that we very often need someone else to point out for us. Because we put so much pressure, especially those of us who are coming from paid work where we performed at a high level or we had high standards for ourselves. And then we go to this unpaid stage and we apply the same pressure. We set the same standards for ourselves. And the body doesn't always understand how to deliver against those standards, right? It's not natural. And you're making me think of something that Eve Rodsky always says, who wrote Fair Play, we're told, we're given messages when we become mothers like, well, breastfeeding is free, right? And so it's free and easy, right, but actually you can attest to the fact it's 1 ,800 hours a year if it's going well, right, add on the acupuncture and lactation consultants and whatever other support somebody might need just to even get there and the emotional weight and... 

00:11:42    Alyssa

Yeah. I was going to say like the mental load piece of it. I was just saying to my husband. 

00:11:46    Lori

To speak about it in that way. Yeah. It's not fair. 

00:11:48    Alyssa

It's really not like, is it monetarily free for me? Sure, save for buying the Ceres Chill and having bottles on hand to keep trying and whatever. But I was just saying to my husband, just the mental load piece of all day, 24 seven, it doesn't stop because she's a baby. So she's nursing overnight too. There is not an hour that goes by that I'm off. 

00:12:17    Lori

No

00:12:17    Alyssa

That my brain isn't thinking like, okay, if she doesn't nurse before this interview, is this something I can pause? She's popped into presentations that I'm giving and to nurse and whatever, it is constant. And I was like, you get up, you get yourself ready, you go to work, you come home, your life, sure it shifted in that we added another kid, but the mental load piece of it, yeah, it's definitely not free, let me tell you. 

00:12:45    Lori

No. And when you're nursing, the life and health of this child really falls squarely on you right now, right? Yeah. Like you are nourishing this child's growth and development. And that's really, it's joyful. I'm so happy that it's working well, but it's a ton of pressure. And to your point, like your mind is always like, wait, how long has it been? What do they need? And what do I have to do? And like, without the bottles, like you don't know how many ounces they're getting. You really don't know. And it's just this constant giving of yourself, right? This constant like metaphorical draining of like your resources and your energy and into this beautiful creature, you know, that you so badly wanted and have created and loved. But like, it's all coming out of you. And like, when do you replenish that? Like, when do you get the chance to refill? Oh my gosh. 

00:13:44    Alyssa

Yeah. It's a lot. Thank you, Eve Rodsky, for pointing out that it's not free. When we're looking at the value of unpaid labor, this is the theme of your work and in your book, Our Home, I'm curious, what led you down this journey of wanting to be an advocate for this value. 

00:14:09    Lori

Yeah. Thank you. So I had a fabulous paid career in marketing and strategy. I worked for Kraft Foods and then Four Seasons Hotels and Resorts, and I really loved that work. Working at Four Seasons was a fabulous gig prior to having kids, but after I had my first child and trying to discuss with them how to achieve this flexibility that I soon recognized wasn't on offer from them at the time and I realized I just needed to pivot. It wasn't the right gig for my family anymore. And so I took that, you know, the passion and the level of performance and applied it to the economy of care and thought I would try out full -time caregiving and community work and charity work and found myself absolutely loving it and valued it tremendously. My husband valued it tremendously, my community did as well. And it felt like a great way to use my skills and serve. And when we were living in Toronto at the time that my kids were born, I have two sons, we then had an opportunity to move to London, England with my husband's work. So that was my responsibility, the big international move and the reestablishing of our family. I continued on in unpaid care there. And then we made a second move to Chicago, same thing. And when we landed in Chicago, we had to get new insurance, new wills, all the sort of foundational family documents. And my husband said to me, look, let's obviously get you life insurance, health insurance, but let's get you disability insurance because we're on our own here. It's just the four of us. We don't have any family, any kind of safety net. And if something were to happen to me, he would have to step away from work and take the lead on family. And so I thought, okay, great. So we went through the rigmarole of applying for disability insurance only for me to be flat out rejected by the insurance agent who said to me, ma 'am, we don't value homemakers that high. And he said to me, look, because you don't receive a salary for the work you do, there isn't a tangible loss. If something were to happen to you, there's nothing that we could identify as a loss. And so my only value is the revenue that I generate, right? Beyond that, this work of unpaid care, which at the time that I had this realization I'd been doing for 10 years, my kids are now 13 and 11, this work is not counted. It's not counted in the GDP. It's not identified by other economic indicators in our society, and it was such a bubble bursting moment for me. It literally lit me on fire, you know, this guy in the middle… 

00:17:05    Alyssa

Yeah, I had like fire inside, just like hearing it. 

00:17:07    Lori

Right. Right. I mean, this gentleman in middle America, you know, in his like pleated khakis and his Dunkin' Donuts, telling me that I had no value on his algorithm was really a jumping off point for me to become a voice for the visibility and the value of unpaid work. And then I found people like Eve Rodsky and recognized the opportunity to talk about the need to break the cycle of the gendering of this work. And I wanted so badly to be a part of her work and so many other amazing women and some men as well who are working to bring visibility to this at, you know, at the government level, at policy level, at, in corporations, and I thought at the time, where is my credibility in all this? Like where can I be a voice? And I looked at where I'd been for the past 10 years, which was with my children in their schools and working with children's charities. And I thought, okay, let me talk to kids. And so this was born, Our Home. 

00:18:17    Alyssa

Our Home. Our Home and it's a kid's book just because we use mostly the audio. So just so folks know, it's a kid's book and it's so funny, it's like you were in my therapy session yesterday because one of the other things I was talking about in therapy was how one of the things that feels really important to me is for my kids to participate in the caretaking of our home, to see us doing it,  that I find this pull, these kind of two parts of me. One, that just when they're awake, I think as a working mom too, where I'm away from them during the day and as they're at school and whatnot, that I want so much of my time to just be hanging out with them and to not be doing these household things. And wanting to give them my connection and attention and whatever in their play and not just in the like, yeah, we can connect while I'm doing the dishes, you know, but like wanting to immerse myself in their play. And then I have this other part of me that's like, I want them to see us taking care of the home to know what it takes to take care of the home and to be a part of that. And I very much grew up in that. I grew up in a household, I'm one of five kids, my mom was a stay at home mom, and basically watched people's kids like an unregulated family childcare in our home, watched people's kids so that she could stay home with us. And we had chores, I guess is the word. We participated in taking care of the house. We had to do dishes. When my parents made dinner, but one of us set the table, somebody cleared, somebody did the dishes, somebody packed up any food. We all had tasks that we had to complete that we were expected to complete. Save for my brother, Andrew, who immediately, like clockwork right after dinner, be like, I have to go to the bathroom, disappear for like 20 minutes. 

00:20:12    Lori

Andrew. 

00:20:14    Alyssa

Yep. Like, literally, in my memory, it's 100 % of the time. But we all have this, we had Saturday mornings where before we could leave the house to go with friends or go do what we were going to do. We each had a room that we were responsible for. 

00:20:29    Lori

Oh, I love that. 

00:20:31    Alyssa

And it rotated, you could also swap. Like if one of us didn't like doing the bathroom and wanted to instead do the living room or whatever, we could see if the other person would trade, but we each had a room before we could go out. But so I grew up in this and I find myself now as a parent with these dueling parts that are like, I want this. I want them to know what it looks like to take care of a house. I want them to know that dishes go in dishwasher and how to load them and it doesn't just magically happen. We don't live in a magic house. And also so that they then in partnership and down the road are participating and taking care of a house and aren't just expecting it to happen magically. 

00:21:14    Lori

Right

00:21:14    Alyssa

But then, yeah, the other part of me that's like, oh, I could just do it all during nap and after bedtime because I just wanna hang and I don't wanna do these things when they're awake. 

00:21:24    Lori

Yeah, I think what you said is so important And, you know, you have clarity on both sides of the pole, right? And the opportunity that we have with this work, and especially with young children, because they are so curious and they are so thoughtful. And this is really the time that they are starting to develop these muscles that are actually more, like, trickier to kick off the development of, like, in the tween years, or the teen years. So this is really the amazing time to start that exposure. And to exactly what you said, the visibility of this work is such a big part of the challenge that we have in assigning value to it. And you're right, as mothers of young kids, so much of it is being done while the kids are at school or while the kids are napping, because that's when we have the freedom to just move through it, right? And we don't have that pull of like, play with me, be with me, come with me. And you're so right that there is that opportunity to say to them, come with me, like play with me, come see what I'm doing. Because the reality is the kids just want to be connected to you. I don't know that it's so important if it's blocks or dolls,  or loading the dishwasher, or separating the socks. The opportunity is the connection, and the opportunity is the learning wherever you are. And I love to invite my kids in to just be with me in the laundry room, or be with me as I'm shopping, or whatever it is, because then they have suddenly a stake in what I'm doing, an interest in what I'm doing, and then through osmosis they're picking up the skills and they may exit the room and come back in a bit or whatever if they're not super engaged. But I love what you said, which is there actually is just as much of an opportunity for this connection that we are craving and that they are craving in the tasks of home and care as there is in any other kind of play. 

00:23:38    Alyssa

Yeah, I dig it. And I think like for myself, it's just a mindset shift. It's harder to do these things with kids around, right? Like I can bust out the dishes with a podcast in my ears after they go to bed faster than I can if Sage is there and he's like pulling a straw out or trying to be a part of it and engaged in it. Or I'm being pulled away because he's like, mama, come see this mama, mama. No, come now. No, I want you to... Truthfully, like for me, I have to be like, yeah, this is going to be a part of it. And he is going to right now at three, not exactly know how to be a helper in loading the dishwasher. And it might take longer or folding the laundry. Same thing. Like it might take longer. And this is how he builds the skill set and the ability to do it down the road. 

00:24:32    Lori

That's it. And the muscles build gradually, but they do build quickly. You know, my 11 -year -old is the chief laundry folder in our home now, and he doesn't question it. He doesn't complain about it. And you know, we went through the, ooh, what's he doing there? Like what's that fold all about? So now he's like quite meticulous because that's the way his brain works, and he finds satisfaction in doing it. And he, you know, it's really important, you know, aside from like, for sure, ensuring safety and age appropriateness of the things that you're engaging the kids in, there is some space to let them take the lead and let them have ideas for how it should be done and do it their own way. You know, when you're folding a cleaning cloth or whatever it is, does it really matter if it's perfect? But what you see is then they find their own, not perfection, because that's not a word I love to use, but their own version of that high standard. And it's terrific, as you say, because that is a bridge to their independence someday and to them being strong partners. And we have an opportunity to break the cycle of this work being gendered, which society has done to it for generations and generations. And women are often sort of falsely empowered by these notions of like, that we are wired to do all of this better, right? That we have the instinct for this and we have the ability to multitask better and we know – we just know better like what's needed in the home and for the children. And I think that, you know, any scientific factuality in that has been – has not been found, right? 

00:26:22    Alyssa

Sure. It's conditioning.

00:26:22    Lori

It's this curating and conditioning for us to be falsely empowered to offer this as like a labor of love, right? And to not expect any compensation for it and to not expect for it to be valued. And that's really something that we have to unlearn so that this next generation of kids grows up believing that this is everybody's work. 

00:26:49    Alyssa

100%. there's actually, there's a talk, I think it's this week at the local university, about how to bring more men into early childhood education. And I was like, just like, full stop, pay early childhood educators and men will come. Like, we, we've been underpaid and undervalued for so long. Pay us, value us, men will come. And we have traditionally had this conditioning around like giving of yourself as a woman and as a female and that you should be selfless and not selfish and so many messages that are some very subtle, some really overt, that lead us to then get to adulthood and believe these narratives that, yeah, I just to know what the kids need before he does. And yeah, that I'm better suited for doing this. And at this point, yeah, I do have a skillset he doesn't have because I've been conditioned for a few decades now in this skillset. 

00:27:56    Lori

That's exactly it. And those messages, in addition to sort of falsely empowering women to buy into the scam of doing 75 % of the unpaid labor globally, which we do, it's unfair to men. The messaging is alienating to a lot of men and this notion that they – 

00:28:21    Alyssa

Talk about your worth only being in your revenue. Very much so. 

00:28:23    Lori

Well, that's exactly right. And this idea that the men sort of should wait in the wings to be asked for help, right? That the women are the managers and the men just sort of like,  need to guess what is needed, or they have to wait to ask to be helped or to come in and they're given part of the instructions, but there's so much that they don't know. And the opportunity really is to empower men, to indicate our trust and our faith in men to show up fully in the home. And just like with children, there is a learning period. There is a period where grace is needed, right? And education is needed to pass the torch in so many ways for things that we have owned for so long. But in terms of capability, men are fully capable of... I mean, with the exception of your beautiful connection with your child through breastfeeding, right? And there is plenty that men can do to support that as well. But, you know, men are just as capable of contributing to the family as an organization and as a team as they are to whatever their paid work is. 

00:29:40    Alyssa

Yeah. And I think it requires us to allow them to make mistakes and to fail and to try again. 

00:29:47    Lori

100%

00:29:48    Alyssa

We allow it of ourselves, right? That like, I make 7 ,000 mistakes a day and I get to drop the ball and come back from it. And then when we delegate something, if it's not done perfectly, if we then take it away from them or we try and go in and like give feedback all the time...

00:30:09    Lori

Swoop in

00:30:35    Alyssa

Yeah instead of like, they'll figure this out, you know? I distinctly remember, Sage was a newborn,  like fresh, and I, my, Sage never took a bottle, do you notice a theme, and so at the end of the day, it was like, I had this one hour of the day that was mine, that we we carved out. And Zach would take, I would nurse Sage, Zach would then get him ready for bed, put his diaper on, et cetera, jammies, and he would go and he would like, bounce him to sleep and then hold him and snuggle him. And I, so that he wouldn't wake up, he wouldn't whatever, I had this hour that was for me. And right at the beginning of us like carving this out, I went, I took a shower, I get out of the shower, and I hear crying. And then I, all of a sudden Zach comes in and he's like, sweating. He's like, so whelmed, and Sage is crying. And I was like, all right, come here. Like, I can help. And he passed him off. And I just tried a few different things, tried to feed him, he wasn't interested, tried some different positions, whatever. And afterwards, when everyone was regulated, Sage was gone, Zach was gone. And Zach was like, I just, I didn't know what to do. Like, how did you know what he needed? And I was like, oh, I didn't know what he needed. I just started trying some things and figured at some point, something's going to work, and, or he's just going to fall asleep. And we might never really know what it was, but that that was okay, it was okay for me to like try nursing and for that to not work. It was okay for me to change his diaper and for that to not work. It was okay to try these things and for it to not be the answer. And that was a turning point for him, it gave him the freedom of, he could try things and have it not be the thing yet and just try something else. And it really shifted for us and freed me up to not, to also not be the one who always had the answer. 

00:32:20    Lori

Yeah, that's such a huge important point in terms of the systems that we create for this more efficient division of labor in the home when the partner who is the sort of... this language isn't ideal, but let's just for this conversation say like there's the primary parent and then the one who's not the primary parent or the primary carer or the primary task manager or whatever it is. You know, when whoever is owning the majority has an opportunity to shift some of that to someone who really maybe has the capacity to own more. It's really about like a full transition of ownership, complete ownership of whatever the task may be, because only in that complete ownership by the other can you experience the complete release by you. That is so important because if you're the manager and you have a helper, you're still carrying the weight, the mental load, the remembering, the preparation, whatever. When you have someone who helps in the execution, it's lovely. It's nice to have someone to say, hey, how can I help? You're still noted as the owner ultimately. And what we want to do is empower other people in our family to be full owners, to the degree that they are comfortable, to the degree that their skills allow. But really involved in that is a complete transfer of knowledge, but also to the point that you just made of confidence and also of understanding that there will be stumbles and fumbles and that's okay. Like we're here as a family, as a safety net while you learn and grow, but like you are going to get there. And this is with partners and this is with children as well. And as they gain that confidence and realize that they are trusted and empowered, they find their way ultimately, and then you can release it. 

00:34:22    Alyssa

Exactly. So that's what I wanted to come back to now with, with our home and where we're talking about empowering kids to be a part of the household roles, I would love for you to speak to offering that grace of mistake and letting them figure it out and really empowering them to own it, start to finish in the way that we would as we're transferring something to a partner that maybe we've held. What does that look like? And like real talk, what are the messy parts of that for you as a parent? 

00:34:58    Lori

Yeah. Yeah. So I think the visibility is the first step to all of this, right? And so the more that children can be a part of you engaged in whatever these tasks are and can watch you, the more that they're going to pick up along the way. And the second thing is for them to understand the why behind this work. So it's not about a chore chart or a to -do list, but it's about having context for why we do, why do we tackle all these things? Why are these things important to the nourishing and the nurturing of our family and the protection of our investments, like our home and our car or whatever? Why do we change our sheets every week? Not just telling your kid to do it, but explaining, as I say to my 13 -year -old, I just want you to know that if you have a clean pillowcase, that you're more likely to have clear skin, right? And so let's work together. I'll show you how to make a bed. I'll show you how to wash the sheets. I'll show you where I keep the sheets, you know, and then they're more likely to not only have a stake in it, but to understand like the flow of it. And then the third bit in terms of setting them up for success is the energy that we give to this work. I don't want to suggest that it's not very often overwhelming and exhausting, but at its heart, right, this is the work of gratitude for all that we have. And I think the opportunity when kids are small to position this as, you know, acts of love and care to one another and, you know, putting a framework around things like laundry, like, oh, I'm so excited for you to wear your soccer uniform, you know, for the game on Saturday. Like, let's get the mud stains out. Can you spray it here? Can you... Whatever it is, like framing it up as like, oh, this is being done for me. It's not just a chore that takes my parent away from me, but I'm actually like, I'm a part of this cycle of the benefit and the meaning of this. And you brought up this word chore, which is such a tricky one for me because it's such a downer, right? I mean, the definition literally is 'tasks that are dreaded, repetitive, unappealing, and difficult'. And that's not the most ideal framework for engaging kids. 

00:37:36    Alyssa

Bad marketing, bad marketing. 

00:37:36    Lori

We need to rebrand it. And I don't know at this stage that we're going to be able to change the word, but definitely to change that energy and just to remind ourselves again, even when we're tired, even when it's a lot, that this is the work of care. It is so meaningful for the way that our family moves through life, for their health and safety, and again, to protect these beautiful investments that we've made together, our home and our car. And if we can frame it up for kids at a young age, then they grow up valuing it like that. And you asked specifically about letting them stumble and fumble. And I think there's definitely spaces where this is easier with less consequence. And that's probably where to really focus on allowing this. Like, if things get folded and put away, does it really matter how they're folded? Differently, probably, if you're washing fine china, you're probably not going to invite your three -year -old to put that away. So kind of choosing the opportunities, but then explaining maybe why you're not, and then explaining the family heritage of that china, or whatever the story is, including the child then why or why not they are taking the lead. 

00:39:03    Alyssa

I love that. I love that. I find for myself, almost like goodifying the task at hand really helpful. Like I look forward to times where I get to pop in an AirPod and listen to a podcast while I'm doing a household task that maybe isn't my favorite. And I think when we can find opportunities like that for kids. I have a friend who it's like a story time where they put an audiobook on,

00:39:35    Lori

Yes. 

00:39:35    Alyssa

And there are some tasks that her daughter, just they're not fun to do. Whether it's brushing your teeth or it's folding the laundry. They're like there are some in the house that she doesn't love to do and so they those are times that they've, they'll pop on an audiobook and they'll be listening to this audiobook and they're each doing their own kind of like household tasks, and then it becomes something where it's like, oh, she looks forward to this, where she's like, yeah, can we listen to an audiobook? And while she's listening, she's doing something around the house and they're each doing it. It's not like mom sits there and watches her do the laundry. Like they're each doing their own things to take care of the house while they listen to this book together. And I think finding opportunities for that could be helpful. I just know personally for myself, It's really helpful to do. I, one thing I feel is helpful in my own household too, we, we've done this in Sage, I don't know forever, that if there are things that he can't do yet. We, I'm going to teach him. Right. So like our sharps drawer, for instance. 

00:40:50    Lori

Mm -hmm. 

00:40:51    Alyssa

My parents are like, oh my gosh, he's going to the sharps drawer again. Why do you let him do this? But he knows how to safely use everything in there or what he is not ready to use yet. He knows that he hasn't figured out how to use the zester safely yet. We do it together and until he can use it safely, it's something that he knows is a task that he can move, the zester has a cover on it, he moves it off to the side, unless there's an adult there to do it with him. And same with like my vegetable peeler. He has his own vegetable peeler that has a grip on that he can hold that and mine doesn't. And my mom cut her finger on it actually over Christmas. Like it's really an awesome vegetable peeler and it's super sharp and it's not something that he can use safely yet. And we have just explained that, that like you're still learning how to do this and as you continue to learn and build the skill. Then at some point, you'll be able to use this vegetable peeler. Right now, here's the one that you can use and we'll keep practicing together with this one, but really like have done a lot of that of, instead of being like, no, you just can't peel vegetables or whatever that we've been like, yeah, we'll get one that you can use while you're still learning how to use this one. 

00:42:07    Lori

Brilliant. And I love that he has so much curiosity in the kitchen, and it just goes to show that the opportunity for him is to be connected to you and to be learning from you and watching you. And specifically as it relates to food, I used to work in the food business and we had research to say that when kids are involved in food selection and food preparation, they are 100 % more likely to try new things. 

00:42:38    Alyssa

We haven't found that yet, but fingers crossed that'll come out. 

00:42:41    Lori

It's brewing in there, I promise you. And he's developing these skills and he's growing up not thinking that the kitchen is for mom and for women and girls. And so that is so brilliant. And I want to just come back, I've written down this word that you said and I've circled it like a hundred times, goodify, is such a brilliant way of framing this up. And same here, you know, when my 11 year old's folding the laundry, he knows he's allowed to watch Premier League soccer highlight. And so why wouldn't I want to make it something that is like balanced and enjoyable for him? If it's motivating and if he feels at the end of it like totally satisfied by the experience and successful in the experience, like why wouldn't I want that for him? Similarly, my 13 -year -old does the vacuuming and he has his headphones on listening to Spotify the whole time and he's like busting a move and loving it, right? And so any opportunity that you have to goodify, another word that can be applied to this is like gamify as well, right, is such a great opportunity. It doesn't have to feel like dreaded, right? We should make it as enjoyable as we possibly can because this work isn't going anywhere. I mean, until we have like Jetson style robots to do all of it for us, and we're still going to probably need to program them and manage it in some way, I mean, this is the responsibility of flowing through life as a family unit and, and, you know, having a home and having a car and the more we can approach it as a team, the less stress and the less resentment and the less weight we will feel. 

00:44:25    Alyssa

Yeah. I, I dig it. It was just thinking of like, my husband loves to mow the lawn and he's like, yeah, sitting on a riding lawnmower, listening to music in my headphones where no one's talking to me or asking me for anything. And I'm maybe drinking a beer while do it. Like, let's go. And he's like, that is a favorite task. And it's like, right. Cause you goodified it. You're listening to music. You're hanging out like, dreams. My final question for you, thank you so much for your time is, I'm wondering if you have advice on how families could approach the allocation of household roles to like encourage participation from each member. 

00:45:03    Lori

So interesting. So, you know, what I encourage families to do is, is start by connecting on their fundamental values and what's important to them about how they flow through life. The family is such a series of compromises and agreements and connection points, right? Where are we meeting? Where are we going? What are we eating? What are we doing? And we're going so fast through life that we don't often stop and say, are we doing this in a way that ultimately is working for us? And so taking a step back and saying, what's important? And that's a question that you can even ask to Sage, right? Like, what feels important to you about this kitchen or your bedroom? Or like when we go to the park, like what's the thing you love the most about that? And just taking a second to reflect on how your family is moving through life as a unit and what you value and from values come standards, right? And then you decide as a family, like, what do we want for our home? And the reality is you can make it anything you want, right? And this is the opportunity to release the idea of judgment by others or comparison to others and just decide as a family what's really meaningful for you. And by the way, even within your family unit, the acknowledgement that you're all wired so differently and you all may have different needs even under your own roof and the opportunity to share and express those. And then from understanding people's standards and people's capabilities, then you can allocate. And what's important is not only to consider the work and everybody's part of the work, but making sure that everybody also has equal time for exercise, equal time for connection with friends, equal time for rest. And, you know, to the point you've been making like, sometimes you just want to do the dishes on your own with your headphones in, right? It doesn't always have to be a teaching opportunity and make sure that the teaching is being shared too, right? Like your husband sometimes takes the kid on the lawnmower and engages them in that way. And so does everybody have equal amounts of all of the things that all of the nourishing things that they need? And then how does the work fall out from there? It's very tempting I think when we have kids to say, you know, they only have one childhood, like let them play, let them be little. And when you have adolescents and teens to say, you know, they really need to focus on their studies. They need to focus on their extracurriculars. They're working toward college or career. Like we can't, you know, engage them in any of this other stuff. It's a distraction. But the reality is, is that there's research from many sources, but from like, you know, the American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry and others that say that actually children engaging in the work of the home generates a more successful future for them in terms of their academics, in terms of their personal relationships. And it's holistic parenting, right, when we involve them in all of this. We're giving them a better shot at being future independents and future partners. So I really encourage these conversations among families just to say, this is an opportunity for us to not only work together, to not only connect at a deeper level, but to take this work of home and family, which is massive in scope, and just make it feel like less for all of us. 

00:48:28    Alyssa

Yeah, I love it. Thank you so much. Thank you for continuing this conversation and for giving us a book where we can bring it to kids. And I think it's a great way to like initiate the conversation with kids too is by kickstarting by reading your book and diving into Our Home and having the discussion around like, what do we value in our home? What feels important to us? Lori, thank you so much. Where can folks find you, connect with you,  get your book, all that jazz. 

00:48:58    Lori

Oh, thank you. So the book is available for pre -order now, and it's available anywhere books are sold. It's called Our Home, The Love, Work, and Heart of Family. And it is for young kids, but I do hope it can inspire families with older children as well. And I'm quite active on my Instagram, which @ourhomeourpride. And when I speak about pride, I don't mean a pride in perfection, but I mean a pride and feeling safe and happy in your own skin in your own space without concern of judgment. 

00:49:30    Alyssa

I love that. 

00:49:31    Lori

Thank you so much. It was great to speak with you. 

00:49:33   Alyssa

Thank you. 

[Music]

00:49:38    Alyssa

Okay, first of all, can we for a second talk about— I called you last night for that cold plunge video-- 

00:49:45    Rachel

Yeah, at 9:43-- PM.  

00:49:47    Alyssa

I know, Mila went to bed late. She had a late nap. So she went to bed at like 9:15 last night and--

00:49:55    Rachel

I called you back today at like 10. Like, AM. 

00:49:58    Alyssa

That's fair. 

00:49:59    Rachel

And you know that I'm not going to be answering at 9:43. 

00:50:02    Alyssa

I know, I know, I know. I but I was like, if you do, this would be so fun. Because how hilarious is that video of Ian cold plunging? 

00:50:12    Alyssa

It's so good. Also do you think that only penis owners experience cold temperatures?

00:50:20    Alyssa

It was so funny. It was so funny. And Clessie, so for the listener, our cousin, Ian, Rach and I, well, we're kind of related. Zach's stepmom is Rach's-- 

00:50:39    Rachel

Great aunt. 

00:50:40    Alyssa

Great aunt. Yeah. So we just say cousins over here. But so our cousin and his wife just got a cold plunge driven by her wanting a cold plunge. But also Rach, they're starting at 45 degrees. 

00:50:56    Rachel

Yeah, I mean, that's--

00:50:58    Alyssa

Hardcore. 

00:50:59    Rachel

But also like listening to Clessie be like, you can do anything for one minute. I'm like, yeah, you just had a baby, Clessie, so like, I'm sure that message is like really strong in your brain right now. 

00:51:08    Alyssa

That's exactly it. She's like, I just pushed a human out of my body. You can do anything for one minute. 

00:51:13    Rachel

Yeah, not just any human, but your child. So let me just watch this play out. 

00:51:19    Alyssa

It was so funny though. But she said she was like, my response to pain is to go quiet and to go inward, which y 'all know is not my response to pain, having attended both of my births. And also every time I cold plunge, it starts out definitely not quiet. So I like fully related to Ian, but then she was like, Ian definitely doesn't go quiet when he starts the cold plunge. 

00:51:46    Rachel

Yeah, so Cody's really, like, a little bit screamy and, like, really gaspy when he goes into the cold plunge. 

00:51:52    Alyssa

I can picture it. 

00:51:53    Rachel

And it, like, legitimately angers him that I just, like, get in and close my eyes and shut off for three minutes. 

00:52:01    Alyssa

It doesn't make sense to me. That's how I feel about people in birth who don't scream. That's what I do in birth, too. I just shut my eyes and put my head down. 

00:52:10    Alyssa

I'm like, where does everything go though, right? Like it has to come out of me.

00:52:16    Rachel

I made a lot of noise with Nora. Went into Abel's birth expecting to make noise. And when I tried it, it like pulled me out of my focus. I don't know what that means about who I am as a person, but I couldn't, it just, that's what it was. 

00:52:32    Alyssa

There's no like trying it or not trying it for me, right? Like it just comes out. There's no controlling it. There's no. I remember actually at one point in the contraction with Sagey, Peggy said, try just like breathing, like do a deep exhale out. And I remember trying and then just going and saying the F word on repeat because I couldn't, like it wouldn't, something had to come out of me. It wasn't like a choice. Yeah. Who were we chatting about today? 

00:53:04    Rachel

Lori Sugarman, the value of stay -at -home parents. 

00:53:07    Alyssa

Yeah, okay, totally. Let's dive in to the value of stay -at -home parents. I think like anyone who is a stay -at -home parent is like, it's about time we chat about the value of stay -at -home parents. 

00:53:22    Rachel

Totally. I can't remember who it was that I was listening to like on a podcast or maybe I read an article or something, but they talked about how in families where there's a stay -at -home parent, that parent actually is also a working parent. They're just not compensated for it. 

00:53:37    Alyssa

Unpaid labor. 

00:53:38    Rachel

Correct. And that was so validating to hear because I was a stay -at -home mom for the first four years of being a parent and it's so much work. 

00:53:50    Alyssa

It's so much work. Okay. Do you know what was so eye-opening for me? I don't know if people know this part of my job because I don't talk publicly about it, but one of the things that I do also under the Seed umbrella is private consulting for families, where I will go to a family's house, and I usually stay in a hotel, but I will go and observe the kids and the family system. And then I teach, whether it's their nannies or their childcare providers or with the parents, whoever is involved in raising the humans. And often when I'm going to these houses, I'm like flown in for a couple days or whatever. It's higher net worth families. And every time is so validating because they'll often have like a fully staffed home, you know, like cleaners, chef, et cetera. And when I pause and look around, I'm like, oh, this is what it actually takes. This is how many bodies it takes to run a home and parent kids and not feel overwhelmed stress. And I'm like, cool, cool. It's like validating. So I'm like, yeah, the like overwhelming stress of running my house and parenting my kids and all that jazz makes total sense when you see how many bodies it really takes. Like when you have that level of income to bring in additional supports, I'm like, yeah, I would, I also would like have a chef and somebody cleaning my house and outsourcing these things if I had that level of income. And it's like, oh, yeah, as people get more money, the things they do is bring in more support because it takes so many frigging bodies to really do this. 

00:55:37    Rachel

Yeah. And it makes sense that when one person is trying to shoulder that load, that it feels like super overwhelming and they end up burnt out and discouraged and--

00:55:47    Alyssa

Yeah, it was like, what would it look like to add up all those salaries of like chef and house cleaner and and household manager and childcare or whatever. And that's the salary of a stay -at -home parent usually. Because often all those things fall on them.

00:56:06    Rachel

Imagine itemizing that, like for real. 

00:56:09    Alyssa

Let's do it. 

00:56:10    Rachel

First of all, the list would be really long. Something that I really love about, so Lori wrote the book, Our Home. It's a picture book for kids and my kids love it and so do I. And one thing that I love that she does is like emphasize the value and importance of like the caretaking of the home and of the children. Because I think because it's not a profession, it inherently is devalued in a lot of dialogue and ideology, especially in our country. And so something that I love about this is that she is like bringing visibility and value to these caretaking tasks. 

00:56:54    Alyssa

Yeah, that's a great point that like they are often seen as yeah, just like not high in value. Right. Like I think that's a really good point. And I, I like that she's bringing kids into this from an awareness perspective. I talked about this in the episode that like I have these pulls between like, do all the household tasks when kids are asleep and do household tasks when kids are awake so they can learn that laundry exists and we don't live in a magic house, right? Like I have these two parts of me that kind of battle and they still, they will both often surface in opposition to one another. One that really values this time when the kids are young and just wants to soak up all the time I have with kids under my roof and the other one that's like, yeah, and I don't want you to be so exhausted because you're doing all of this when they're asleep. 

00:57:58    Rachel

Totally. I think, you know, in the book she does a great job of, the word romanticize comes to mind, but like not in a bad way, not in a like making it sound better than it is, but like seeing how beneficial it can be for children to view household care tasks as something important and something that isn't just like this dreaded chore but like we like having a tidy space so let's all work together so that we can have a tidy space. Not like you need to vacuum the living room because that's your chore or like you need to straighten your shoes because that's what your checklist says, but like here's why we do these things, and why they're important, and how they benefit our family. 

00:58:39    Alyssa

Yeah I guess in order to teach kids that I have to teach myself that first. 

00:58:44    Rachel

Yeah, I hear that. 

00:58:46    Alyssa

Cause right now it just feels like a chore. I'm like, I don't, there's no, I just wish there was a magic house, right? Like I wish that these dishes, I love eating off of clean plates and I hate the process of cleaning them. 

00:59:02    Rachel

Totally. It's also monotonous, right? 

00:59:05    Alyssa

And it feels never ending, right? It's like, okay, great. I just emptied the sink and the dishwasher is stacked. And then you, it's like an inbox where you like cleared the inbox and you just like, aren't allowed to hit refresh. I'm like, I can't walk away from this sink because the worst is when I'm like, just done with the dishes. And then Zach like slides a plate in the sink and inside, I want to murder him in that moment. Cause I'm like, no, I just like finished this task. 

00:59:35    Rachel

Yeah. And you don't get the dopamine. You don't get the dopamine of like, task completion, right? 

00:59:40    Alyssa

Correct

00:59:40    Rachel

 Yeah, and that is super draining. Um, I think for myself and this is like obviously an area of growth because it's so much faster to get stuff done without involving the kids, but in the episode you guys talked about it as like an opportunity for connection. 

00:59:59    Alyssa

Mm -hmm 

01:00:00    Rachel

And often there's a part of me that's like, you know what? You guys just watch a show for 30 minutes and I'll just like quickly move through this and then I can give you my attention. But then it's like my to -do list continues to grow and I never get to that point where I'm like, okay I'm all done. So now you can have my full attention. It's almost like, yeah, what if I could just slow down and and make the tasks like where we're connecting right now? Like if I have to get this done, if this needs to happen right now, what would it look like to slow down, accept that it will take a little bit longer, and and connect with them in the process? And like I said, 

01:00:34    Alyssa

That's the right answer. Yeah, I think that's the right answer I mean, I think that's the key to success here. And it's that's where I'm like, I have to have to teach myself this because it's I'm in a practice. And so now so is Sagey, right? Like if I'm going to start to like clean up the kitchen, he's like, can I watch a show? And I'm like, sure. You know, like and it's for me, getting out of that routine means also getting him out of that routine. And hopefully I'll be in a season where that feels accessible and attainable, I will say right now in this season of postpartum depression life, I'm just like, yeah, that is a next season goal for me. 

01:01:18    Rachel

Totally. I mean, that makes total sense. I also think obviously postpartum depression magnifies everything, but even mental well -being aside, having a young baby is not really necessarily the season to be inviting your toddler into household care tasks, whoo, you know, just like, yeah, sure, you can watch that. I'm gonna I'm gonna take care of this. 

01:01:42    Alyssa

That's a next season goal for me. 

01:01:44    Rachel

Also, like my kids are a little bit older. So I'm also feeling like they have the ability and capacity to take on a little bit more. 

01:01:53    Alyssa

Sure. 

01:01:53    Rachel

My expectations are a little bit higher for them now than they were when I had younger children. And something that's coming up for me a lot, which you touched on in the interview as well with my having a daughter and a son is like, as they're getting older, I want to be really mindful of like household tasks not being gendered for them. Cody and I have a rad system that took a long time to come to but we, for example, I never do the dishes and he never does laundry. It's just like what we have come up with. And like, I don't cook all the meals, he cooks some. And that's just what works for us, right? So like we're modeling that, but there's so many other inputs where children are getting messages around gender and caring for the home and valuing things that are happening in the home and caring for children. And it's important to me that I'm not sending my daughter like subliminal messaging that those tasks are for her. And I don't wanna be sending my son messages that he's exempt from those tasks. I want them to move into adulthood, I want Nora to have the self -advocacy skills to navigate it, should she need to, and I want Abel to be a rad partner to whoever he ends up with. 

01:03:13    Alyssa

Yeah, a hundred percent. Thank you. I'm gonna thank you on behalf of their future partners or roommates. I think like the same. I want them, from a gendered perspective, for sure, and like, I think like, it's a part of feminism, I guess, which for some people is a triggering word, which is funny, because it's just like equality. But I think that.. 

01:03:42    Rachel

We can dive into that another day. 

01:03:49    Alyssa

Sure. I think that when I'm looking at this too, I think this is shifting in a lot of households just generationally, right? I look at what it looked like for my grandpa and grandma, and then what it looked like for my parents. And my mom tells the story of the first time she was going to be gone from my brother, Andrew, where he was going to have to eat something and he was a baby. She made all of her own baby food, not because she cared about it, because we were poor. And so she had put peaches, she'd blended them. She put them in ice cube trays and you would just pull out an ice cube and defrost it. And she came home and my dad was like, he really wasn't into the peaches, whatever she told him what to do. And then she went over and saw it, and it was still an ice cube. He hadn't defrosted the ice cube. And she was like, I don't know where to start with this because I didn't realize this wasn't common sense. I thought that you would have maybe defrosted the food before you just gave the baby an ice cube and we're like, weird, he's not into it. 

01:04:57    Rachel

Also, like, I'm glad he didn't choke. 

01:05:06    Alyssa

Legit. It was like one of those where she was like and she's like in his defense, like our parents like the mom didn't leave at all. Dad was definitely not going to be defrosting any food like it just wasn't on the table. And so I feel like generationally we are already seeing these shifts in expectations, especially in our generation where there are more women in the workforce than we've ever seen, and then that kind of naturally divided up tasks. One of my pet peeves is when my mom will say things like about how incredible my brothers are at like as partners or dads. And like, they are, they totally are. But what she's seeing is equality. And for her, that feels like they get a trophy. And I'm like, okay, but if I did that, if I just did the exact tasks that they did, I actually wouldn't be doing enough in most people's eyes as a mom. 

01:06:04    Rachel

Yeah, totally.

01:06:05    Alyssa

But they get a trophy because they also take care of their kids and the house. 

01:06:08    Rachel

This is also a trigger for me. We have some family members who when they notice Cody just being a dad, they really need to say like how amazing he is. And Cody is incredible, but not because he does the bare minimum of parenting. Like he goes above and beyond, he's incredible. However, he's not like a hero if he goes grocery shopping with both kids, okay? 

01:06:34    Alyssa

Also, no one's saying it to you or about you. 

01:06:37    Rachel

No, it's expected that I go grocery shopping with both kids. And like, let's say that I let Abel play a game on my phone in the grocery store. If I'm like low capacity, you know, I'm getting - 

01:06:48    Alyssa

What kind of mom are you? 

01:06:50    Rachel

Correct. But if Cody were to have the same exact situation, even with Abel on a phone, it'd be like, oh my gosh, you're such an involved dad. 

01:06:58    Alyssa

Yeah. You know your kids' names. Look at you. 

01:07:01    Rachel

Like, yeah. 

01:07:02    Alyssa

I just like, whoo, this one gets me. But so from the gendered perspective, I feel like as we are normalizing household tasks as just household tasks that everyone pitches in on, hopefully it'll help move that needle too on expectations. 

01:07:20    Rachel

I think it will. We're headed in a good direction, I think. 

01:07:23    Alyssa

And all of us that are triggered by this now, we're going to be the grandparents. And hopefully we don't swing that pendulum too far. 

01:07:32    Rachel

I mean, the other thing too is that it's disempowering for men when we hold those beliefs. Men are capable. 

01:07:41    Alyssa

Correct. 

01:07:42    Rachel

They can do it. They can defrost an ice cube of peaches. They can do it. They can even wipe down the high chair after and wipe the baby's face off. You know? 

01:07:53    Alyssa

Rach, slow down. 

01:07:58    Rachel

But in all seriousness, I don't want, first of all, I don't want my husband who's a grown man receiving that messaging, but I definitely don't want my son receiving that messaging that he's somehow like inept and can't figure out how to do what does feel like common sense tasks for me. 

01:08:13    Alyssa

Yeah. I will say one thing that I do think is gendered and I'm really trying hard to understand this because my husband has it, but also now my son has it. And I'm like, I wonder if Mila will have it. The inability to find something that's in front of your face or that maybe you have to move one thing for, I don't get it. I don't get, like when we thought Slothie was left at school and it's a huge deal, Slothie is Sage's favorite thing in the world. And I was like, you know what, go check the van. Maybe I didn't bring him in from the van when we got home. And so Zach's like, yep, checked the van. No Slothie, yada, yada. Okay. We go through bedtime. We make it through. It's fine. You know, not ideal, but fine. Sagey gets to school the next day. Slothie's not at school. And I'm like, I know exactly where Slothie is. I know exactly. And how did I not think to check your work last night. And I go out and Slothie is in the van. And I'm like, this one feels gendered. 

01:09:20    Rachel

Okay. So in my marriage, it feels gendered too. It's also like a joke. I call it like, you know, people say selective hearing for, for Cody, its selective vision. And it's like, the man can spot a deer or a turkey--

01:09:38    Alyssa

Yes. 

01:09:39    Rachel

Like, it's like a where's Waldo situation where like, I get, to me it's a brown speck. And for him, he like spots it from forever. Even when we're like driving, I'm like, how, what? But then it's like, hey, I can't find any scissors. And I'm like, oh, okay, let me check the scissor drawer. You know, the junk drawer. Cause that's, that's the thing in our house. 

01:09:58    Alyssa

The drawer where the scissors always are. 

01:10:00    Rachel

Correct, and I'm like, oh, let me move this one piece of paper. Lo and behold, scissors. Now, in my children, Nora is the one with selective vision. 

01:10:14    Alyssa

And Nora and Cody are so similar. And Sage and Zach are so similar. So maybe it's a sensory systems thing. 

01:10:21    Rachel

I think it's a nervous system thing. I think it's a filtering information thing. Super annoying, but I do think it's a nervous system thing. 

01:10:29    Alyssa

Okay, all right, I accept. All right. Well, I hope that folks head on out and snag this book, Our Home, because I would love to see us continue to move in this direction where the family members as a whole are taking care of the household. And I think it'll also be huge for the mental load when it comes to motherhood. 

01:10:55    Rachel

Yeah. I love that. 

01:10:58    Alyssa

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