How to Raise a Socially Successful Child with Dr. Stephen Nowicki, PhD

 

00:00:00    Alyssa

You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I have such a special guest for you. I got to hang out with Dr. Stephen Nowicki. He is a professor of psychology at Emory University, and he has served as the director of clinical training, head of the psychological center, and head of the counseling center. Dr. Nowicki remains in active clinical practice as a diplomat in psychology, and let me tell you, he is a gem. His latest book, Raising a Socially Successful Child: Teaching Kids the Nonverbal Language They Need to Communicate, Connect, and Thrive, is so good, and we had such a rich discussion. Honestly, the only thing I wish I had was more time. I could have talked to him for so long, and he's one of those humans that makes you feel when you're with him like you're the only thing that matters in that moment, that he's so present. It was really cool to see him kind of put this into practice, the social skills here into practice that he's teaching us about. I had some hesitation going into this and brought up some things that just from the title of the book had stood out to me that I was nervous about, and he so beautifully engaged in conversation with me and delicately and mindfully, and I'm really excited to get this episode in your earbuds. If this podcast has been helpful for you, can you take a moment please to rate and review it? It makes this podcast accessible to even more humans who are looking for free support in raising emotionally intelligent kids. We don't have to do this alone and every time you rate or review or update your review or rating, it helps more folks find us. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful for you. All right, let's dive in. 

 

00:02:00    Alyssa

Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together. 

 

00:02:22    Alyssa

How are you today? 

 

00:02:24    Dr. Nowicki

I'm okay. You look much better in earphones than I would. 

 

00:02:29    Alyssa

Oh, that's kind. Thanks. 

 

00:02:32    Dr. Nowicki

I will put them on if you have trouble with the sound. 

 

00:02:36    Alyssa

It sounds okay. 

 

00:02:38    Dr. Nowicki

Okay. 

 

00:02:38    Alyssa

Yeah, perfect. Nice to meet you, Dr. Nowicki. Where are you actually? 

 

00:02:43    Dr. Nowicki

I'm in Atlanta. 

 

00:02:45    Alyssa

Oh, oh, nice. 

 

00:02:46    Dr. Nowicki

So I'm just down the road from Emory University. 

 

00:02:52    Alyssa

Nice 

 

00:02:53    Dr. Nowicki

We can walk to the campus. Yeah, 

 

00:02:54    Alyssa

We are, I'm in Vermont, and we just have another snow occurring right now. 

 

00:03:00    Dr. Nowicki

Well, my wife and I went on one of our nicest hikes in Vermont. They do an Inn to Inn. 

 

00:03:07    Alyssa

Okay, cool. 

 

00:03:09    Dr. Nowicki

They plan it out for you. And you get to go from, as far as you want to walk between the ends as you, as you would like. Thank goodness. 

 

00:03:17    Alyssa

Yeah, where in Vermont was it? Do you remember? 

 

00:03:20    Dr. Nowicki

Oh, it's all over. There's Inns all over the place. It's done by the, uh, the Vermont Bicycle Club. 

 

00:03:27    Alyssa

Cool. Yeah. Very cool. Oh, nice. Yeah, it's a nice little state for hiking. That's for sure. 

 

00:03:34    Dr. Nowicki

Yes. 

 

00:03:35    Alyssa

Chilly.. 

 

00:03:36    Dr. Nowicki

I'm from Wisconsin originally. So that's why snow in March is not unusual. 

 

00:03:43    Alyssa

Yeah, sure. You get, you understand it. I'm originally from the Buffalo area and my husband's from here. So yeah, also used to snow in March my whole life. My whole life. Although we escaped and went to North Carolina to visit my brother for a couple of weeks in February. And it was delightful to just have a break. 

 

00:04:06    Dr. Nowicki

Daffodils, you see daffodils. 

 

00:04:08    Alyssa

Yes. 

 

00:04:08    Dr. Nowicki

I'm from Wisconsin, as I said, and I've never failed to be amazed that in February daffodils come up. 

 

00:04:16    Alyssa

Yes, it was so funny. My almost three year old asked at one point, he said, it's winter in North Carolina. I was like, it is winter in North Carolina. Yes. It is very confusing. Oh, sweet. I was like, Oh, that's so relatable, bud. Well, I'm excited to get to chat about your new book today and and dive into your work. Thanks for joining me today. 

 

00:04:46    Dr. Nowicki

Oh, thank you so much for having me on. I mean, it's I've followed your incredible journey with both of your two children. And it's a, I welcome them into Generation Z. And-- 

 

00:05:00    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:05:01    Dr. Nowicki

And they're the reason and the rest of Generation Z is why I wrote the book that I did. So hopefully it'll have some some use to you and your listeners. 

 

00:05:11    Alyssa

Thank you. Do you have kids? Dr. Nowicki? 

 

00:05:14    Dr. Nowicki

I have a I have one one son. And I have two grandchildren. 

 

00:05:17    Alyssa

Sweet. 

 

00:05:19    Dr. Nowicki

And yes, and 

 

00:05:20    Alyssa

Are they near you? Do you get to see them? 

 

00:05:23    Dr. Nowicki

They're in Savannah, which is about four hours. So it's just a drive a morning drive.  

 

00:05:29    Alyssa

That's nice. Yeah, that's nice. Good. Yeah. So nice to be in close proximity. My mother in law and her wife live down the road from us. And my parents are at this point about five and a half hours away. It feels good. Nice to be close. 

 

00:05:46    Dr. Nowicki

There is something about being a grandparent that is special. The kids find a way to get into your heart that you didn't, a place that you didn't know you had. And I was so worried when the second grandchild was about to come because I said there's there's no room. 

 

00:06:05    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:06:07    Dr. Nowicki

And then he came. And there was the place-- 

 

00:06:12    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:06:12    Dr. Nowicki

--ready for him. So, 

 

00:06:13    Alyssa

I love that. I love that. That is sweet. And when you were, I guess, coming together to look at like, what am I going to write about? I'm curious what drove this specifically the socially successful piece? Like, what was it that you were noticing that piqued your interest there? 

 

00:06:33    Dr. Nowicki

Well, what happened was that there was, in my practice,  more, more and more kids were coming to see me or being referred to me, that seemed to be regular kids, they seemed to be, you know, they didn't have anything, you know, I met with the parents, the parents were great, I meet with the teachers, the teachers were great. I went to the schools, the schools were great. And yet, these were kids that wanted to be connected to others and weren't, couldn't, couldn't somehow do it. And I began to be concerned about that. And then I also teach. And so I was preparing for my lecture on abnormal psychology. And I went into the into the data, and was stunned to find out that Generation Z has almost doubled the rate of anxiety and depression than any other generation and almost tripled the rate for conduct disorder or acting out. 

 

00:07:36    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:07:38    Dr. Nowicki

And so I said, something is going on here. And I think what I, I had an inkling from research that I do in nonverbal communication, that that was part of it, a significant part. And so I began to not only write the book, but do the research that allowed me to find out that nonverbal communication really is the language of relationship and it is what these kids are lacking in skill. 

 

00:08:14    Alyssa

Interesting. Okay. I agree. I think that, you know, I think about even communicating right now with my infant, who is three and a half months old, and she doesn't understand yet the words that I'm saying, but she knows the vibe, right, by like what my body's doing. And I get to communicate so much more beyond words. And I feel like we maybe get that with babies, but don't see that that continues, the impact that has, continued down the road. And that like, you know what I mean? And that it isn't just with babies that I can quote, say the right words in a million different ways, and have different, different results and have, you know, my three year old respond differently, or my husband take it differently, depending on what that nonverbal communication is. So I so deeply agree. And I'm excited to get to chat about what does that look like? What is the nonverbal communication and how it shows up. 

 

00:09:17    Dr. Nowicki

Yeah. And I think so many people when you think about it, the relationship you have with Mila, 

 

00:09:23    Alyssa

That's right. 

 

00:09:25    Dr. Nowicki

And you had with Sage, that that relationship is maybe perhaps the most intimate one you'll ever have in your life. 

 

00:09:35    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:09:35    Dr. Nowicki

And it's all done without words. And all of a sudden when words pop up, the first word is spoken, it's like this supernova. And it's so bright that it obliterates the fact that you were able to achieve this wonderful relationship without the use of that word. And of course, you know, mothers and fathers forever write down when the first word was said. But they don't write down when the first gesture was made or when the first, you know, sort of tone of voice where they turn the head to look at you. They accept that and they forget that it was governing what's going on. And like you said, what then takes people's attention is the grooming of verbal language, the training in verbal language. And it's a marvelous thing to see take place, because they go from one word to 10 or 12. And along with that, the research shows that they're also learning gestures the same way. They have more gestures, almost, for communicating than words. But then there comes a place, and my colleagues in memory sort of roll their eyes in wonder, it takes off. And suddenly, it's hundreds of words. 

 

00:10:55    Alyssa

It's wild. 

 

00:10:56    Dr. Nowicki

And how that happens. Nobody knows. Except it happens. 

 

00:11:02    Alyssa

Yeah. It's such a fun time. 

 

00:11:06    Dr. Nowicki

It is. And and but there's a sort of even, I don't know, as a grandfather, I was more aware of this. You know, I don't, I didn't want to lose the, the little the baby communications I had, you know, I didn't want to lose. So there's a mixture for a while. And then the words go on and parents, teachers, so forget that nonverbal communication is also being learned, or needs to be learned at this stage. Because relationships start out simple, and become more complex over time. So that each developmental stage from from infancy, to toddlerhood, to preschool, to elementary school, to adolescence, relationships get more and more complex. They don't get simpler. And what they forget, because the language, because one of the attributes of nonverbal language, and maybe I should say what that is. 

 

00:12:04    Alyssa

Yeah, please. 

 

00:12:05    Dr. Nowicki

You know, the nonverbal language is faces, voices, our ability to both receive, identify, and express nonverbal emotion in facial expressions, tones of voice, postures, gestures, personal space, touch, objectics, what we put on ourselves to communicate, and the granddaddy or grandmother of all nonverbal communication, rhythm. Rhythm is the bedrock. It's the place where relationships are made. 

 

00:12:39    Alyssa

Will you break that down, what do you mean by rhythm? 

 

00:12:41    Dr. Nowicki

Rhythm is, you and me right now are in rhythm. You nod your head. I'm watching. I talk. I stop. You take that cue. You ask a question. And that's what relationships are. They're a give and take, a rhythm that goes on and on and on. And we pick up cues. And nowadays, you know, people yell over one another. But for real, we watch each other's nonverbals. And we take the cue from that. And it's a rhythm. There was a wonderful study that a developmental kinesiologist did. She did a study on newborn infants and she put a metronome next to newborn infants. She set it at different speeds and the babies fell asleep to one speed more than any other. I bet you could guess what that is. 

 

00:13:32    Alyssa

I would imagine it would be like kind of a very consistent, slower speed. 

 

00:13:36    Dr. Nowicki

Yeah, it's the mother's heart rate. 

 

00:13:38    Alyssa

Ah, cool. 

 

00:13:39    Dr. Nowicki

So the rhythm is set. That's already there. It's already in the in the most basic beginning connection that there is, it's there. And it needs to be fostered. It needs to be taught because the rhythm gets more and more important and more and more complex, over time. Your nodding, my nodding takes place in rhythm even though their their facial expressions we're using that's that's one channel, but it's taking place in a particular rhythm too

 

00:14:15    Alyssa

I wonder if also rhythm needs to be respected by adults communicating with kids.  Does that make sense when I say respected?

 

00:14:27    Dr. Nowicki

I thought, I thought you'd be right on target yeah. Yes of course.

 

00:14:31    Alyssa

Yeah I see it so often with kids where adults-- we can jump in, we can jump in too fast, we can jump in too often, and we don't hold the space for kids. I would say, especially kids who are what we consider like sensory sensitive, who are often great observers of information, but might need a beat more to process that information. And that we can step in and we can interrupt that rhythm. I see it a lot adult to child. 

 

00:15:05    Dr. Nowicki

Yes. And that's a super point. And you probably you just wrote five or six pages of my book. That's okay. I've already, I got it down there first. It also ,when, I'm skipping around a bit, but it also has to do with personal space and touch. Adults don't-- personal space is another channel. They don't respect, especially infants and toddlers' space. The intrude on space, they touch, they break in. And there's research showing that there are neurons that fire to protect infants and toddlers that show that the child is is upset by that. 

 

00:15:47    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:15:48    Dr. Nowicki

But adults just think, Oh, let me just hug this.. and let me just... And so there needs to be not only the kind of identification of emotion, nonverbally, in peers, needs to be done older, younger. 

 

00:16:01    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:16:02    Dr. Nowicki

And younger, older as well. 

 

00:16:04    Alyssa

Yeah. And I had, I had learned from an OT that the, um, our tactile system, that touch system, when we're in a state of dysregulation is heightened, right? So when I'm annoyed with my partner about something and he puts his hand on my shoulder and I like shrug away, I'm like, Oh, I don't want that, that our tactile systems heightened. It's the same if we're trying to get out the door with my three -year -old and now every single item of clothing is a battle, the socks, the shoes, the jacket, because his tactile system is heightened. And I love that connection to personal space. Of like when we come into their personal space and it can dysregulate their nervous system, that then icing on the cake is the touch. It's hard to balance, I think, for us as adults too, if we are a sensory mismatch with a child, where I love, touch is really regulating for me. I could have a massage for four days and I'm like, I want more, right? Like I love touch. I could have a baby on my body all day, like I, it's really hard for me to like feel touched out. My son and I are sensory mismatch. We have very different nervous systems. How we process the world is different. And for him, he's tactilely sensitive. And so touch is not usually regulating for him. And when he's having a hard time, he will ask me to come lay with him, but he wants me to lay next to him. Right. And he wants me in his space, but not touching. And, but it's like, it's a learning curve, I think, for us as we're getting to know our kids and knowing, like, how do they respond to different things. And I think requires us to slow down and listen, right, to listen to the nonverbal communication that they are presenting. 

 

00:17:54    Dr. Nowicki

That's what I'm hoping will happen, because one of the characteristics, let me, let me, let me go through real quickly why I think nonverbal language is the hidden language, and why it's so important. 

 

00:18:07    Alyssa

Please

 

00:18:08    Dr. Nowicki

It shares a lot of similarities with verbal language, it's, it's learned. It's as complex, I mean there's English language is the most complex language on earth. It has 373 ,000 words now. But nonverbal communication is as complex. There are, you know, Paul Ekman identified 63 different kinds of smiles. Other people have identified over 1 ,000 different postures, 5 ,000 different gestures, space is regulated by millimeters. And you can have receptive and expressive difficulties in verbal and nonverbal language, or the like, that way. Most everybody knows that if you miss a letter in a word and can't read the word, you're dyslexic. Fewer know that if I hold my hand up and you can say these are fingers, but you can't come up with the word for this thing, you're aphasic, expressive aphasic. So you have receptive verbal difficulties, expressive verbal difficulties. But the same thing is true with nonverbal language. There is both a receptive and expressive side to it. So you can have problems picking up emotional cues in the faces, voices, postures, gestures, space, touch, rhythm of other people, and you can have problems expressing it accurately. The key thing is you don't know when you're making nonverbal errors. When you make verbal errors, get you in formal schooling, they give you feedback. With nonverbal language, because it differs in the sense that it is out of awareness. 

 

00:19:55    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:19:56    Dr. Nowicki

And continuous. I mean, you and I, you know, sometimes you're not talking, sometimes I'm not talking, but we can't help keep, our nonverbals keep going on. I watch your face, I watch you're smiling now, and you're nodding, or you're... And so it's nonverbal, it's continuous. And when you make a mistake verbally, when you say, I ain't seen it, or we was going, what assessment do you make of someone? Well, they're maybe not educated, maybe not so smart. But when you break a nonverbal rule of language, when you sit too close, when you talk too loud, it almost always has a negative emotional impact. 

 

00:20:40    Alyssa

Yeah, it feels like a threat. 

 

00:20:41    Dr. Nowicki

And the example I like to use is, is my wife is always trying to get me to go see culture, because I'm a professor, I'm supposed to see these movies there. So finally, she talks me into going to see this art movie at Tara theater, which is nearby us. And I go there, and I've got my usual popcorn and Coke because at Emory University, it's Coca Cola University. So I'm always drinking coke. And I sitting there's in a usual crowd, 500 seats, four people. And I sit there with my Coke, and I notice a noise in the back, and somebody comes in. And I hear them walk down the aisle. They get to my aisle, and they shuffle over, and they sit down next to me. 500 empty seats, and they sat down next to me. I asked the students, how long before you decide you may have to go to the restroom and then to your car and home. And why? Because that person has broken a nonverbal rule of language. And my research partner, Marshall Duke, and I came up with a term for this difficulty in nonverbal language called dyssemia. "Dys" meaning an inability, "semia" signs, an inability to process signs. And we talk about the dyssemic core. And I think a lot of the kids that were coming to see me had this dyssemic core, that is, they want to connect with others, they misread them, or they send the wrong signals, they do it continuously, they have a negative emotional impact on others. And they don't know they're the source of the difficulty. 

 

00:22:29    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:22:30    Dr. Nowicki

So that's one of the real problematic parts and why nonverbal communication is so important. 

 

00:22:39    Alyssa

Okay, I have so many things. I'm like, which avenue do I go down first? The first thing that like popped up for me was proprioceptive awareness, right? Of like, where is my body in space? And for kids who have, or humans who have low proprioceptive awareness, that we'll see in early childhood, they might go and they're trying to sit next to a friend and they sit on their lap instead, or they like bump into them when they're in, and it's, it's so hard from the teacher perspective to witness and be like, Oh, I know so badly that this child wants to connect with that other child. And now the impact is disconnection. And to just witness that. And so I'm wondering the role of proprioception here and then outside of proprioception, what it looks like to teach these, I'm gonna call them social skills of what, because they are kind of like unwritten rules in the theater, you don't sit next to me when there's all these open seats, right? And so, but there isn't a rule book for it. And so how do we teach these things? 

 

00:23:44    Dr. Nowicki

Ah. What a nice question. Right there. Bullseye. Bullseye. Because this goes to another difference between verbal and nonverbal language. The way we learn it. Verbal language, as I mentioned, is learned formally and directly. 

 

00:24:01    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:24:02    Dr. Nowicki

We focus on that in schools. We have the kids learning spelling tests, what words they use, right, grammar and so on. Nonverbal language is learned indirectly and informally. It's learned through the interaction of children with adults first, and then with peers. When you look at, I look at development, not as a Freudian, you know, oral, anal, whatever. I see it as a development of more and more complex relationships. 

 

00:24:35    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:24:36    Dr. Nowicki

Starting out with the simple ones and becoming more complex. And when you start out this way, you realize that nonverbal communication is something that is so prevalent throughout the process. It's through the interaction that's taking place. The child learns from the mother how to smile because you back and forth. And mothers learn to have a kind of interaction with them that helps them learn. The babies are born with a few things that pull for this, but it's actually taught. I mean, if you think of, if somebody took a video of you with your son, I mean, you're looking, you're touching, all the things you're doing, so that it's learned indirectly and informally through that process. And that's what has been hampered in Generation Z. It's the generation that has had that time taken away from them by screens. 

 

00:25:42    Alyssa

Okay, so this is my next question was about screens and the role they play. So thank you. I was wondering like what that looks like. 

 

00:25:50    Dr. Nowicki

You have to you have to help me get back to your question. So many different directions I want to go. 

 

00:25:57    Alyssa

I know I want seven hours. I want to go in seven hours of this. 

 

00:26:03    Dr. Nowicki

So it's it's this this process and then when you get to toddlerhood, it's a place where parents now do a little bit of formal training with play dates and organizing and so forth. But it's still not, I mean, you correct some when you're on a play date. I watched, observed, I took my grandkids on play dates and so on. So you do a little observing and correction, some of it non -verbal, mostly the words that they use, not the non -verbals. And people don't realize that what you're doing during this early stage is you're preparing the children for the big step into full -time school. Children can have friends up to that time, but they're really not the kinds of friends that we call friends. 

 

00:26:54    Alyssa

Sure, sure, yeah. Social relationships aren't the focus. 

 

00:26:58    Dr. Nowicki

No, but when the full -time school comes, what you've done really, if you've prepared your child, taught them everything that you, you know, are aware of verbally about social skills. But what you really need to know, be aware of, is how are they doing non verbally.

 

00:27:15    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:27:15    Dr. Nowicki

Most parents don't have a clue. 

 

00:27:18    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:27:19    Dr. Nowicki

They there's too many other things to go on. And what that used to be taken care of by the fact that there was so much time and interaction that that would be learned. But time that now that screens have taken away from that kind of interaction. First of all, hampered Generation Z, because they're the first generation that is so completely technical. 

 

00:27:42    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:27:43    Dr. Nowicki

Then the pandemic was the knockout punch. 

 

00:27:46    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:27:47    Dr. Nowicki

They were they were less prepared than other generations to venture into the realm of making friends. And then when the pandemic hit, it took two years away from them, two years of the kinds of interactions that you need to have in order for nonverbal communication skills to become proficient. There were some kids, and I do a lot of consulting with schools, some kids who were about ready to enter first grade when the pandemic hit. They never entered first grade. They did it at home through Zoom. They came in second grade, their first school experience with other kids was third grade, coming in there with nonverbal skills of a preschooler. We're just beginning to feel the impact of that, like a tsunami throughout the whole school system, where these two years took time away from learning nonverbal language impacted kids at different stages of their development and relationship maturity. 

 

00:28:59    Alyssa

Yeah, I think not even just in kids who were school -aged, but looking at within the early childhood years, I mean, you weren't seeing play dates really during that time. We weren't seeing kids even in childcare in the same way that we normally do. We were seeing less gathering of humans and just the social impact I think that had as well, and has. I think back to, I mean, just so vastly different my childhood from my children's childhood right now, but I'm one of five kids. I grew up in a low -income rural town in Western New York, South of Buffalo. And it was like the village in the village sense, right? Like my grandparents were down the street. I could bike over to Ali Tigh's house. Everybody knew everyone and kind of like pitched in and took care of everyone. And in that there was so much social gathering that occurred. 

 

00:30:00    Dr. Nowicki

And learning. 

 

00:30:00    Alyssa

Yeah, exactly. And from such a young age, I mean, I was, yeah, I would say dragged to things as a kid, but now looking back, like I got to have these experiences. Whereas now when I look at it, I was just having this conversation with one of my best friends here that as a parent, I don't love the play date culture of like, all right, let's get together from this time to that time at this location. We're going to go to this playground or whatever. And we're going to be together for an hour and a half. I am so much more into like, yeah, just come over and we'll figure out lunch together for the kids. And it'll just be like a real hang rather than kind of like a contrived environment. And I think within the real hang, I feel more connected. It feels more authentic. And I see it in Sage for sure. And I'll be curious to see what it looks like for Mila, but like that authentic connection is so different for building his social skills than this like kind of contrived environment where we met at a trampoline park or whatever. Does that make sense? 

 

00:31:09    Dr. Nowicki

Yeah, it makes, it makes great sense, but both are, both are useful. 

 

00:31:13    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:31:14    Dr. Nowicki

And and both are possibilities of learning. But when you take away both both of those, where it was just the parent and the child at home isolated. And then here's the kicker. Besides that, we're on we're on Zoom, we're talking we're, and it's a wonderful thing to do. 

 

00:31:34    Alyssa

Yeah, 

 

00:31:34    Dr. Nowicki

But I would much rather be there in person with you. 

 

00:31:37    Alyssa

Same

 

00:31:37    Dr. Nowicki

Same here. But it's better than nothing. But when it's everything, it interferes with the kind of learning that needs to be done to learn nonverbal language. Because I don't stare at a person for as long as I stare at you on Zoom. If I did--

 

00:31:57    Alyssa

Thank you. 

 

00:32:00    Dr. Nowicki

--I'd be under arrest, you know, because it's three seconds is what you're supposed to get when you have an interpersonal interaction. But kids who are watching on Zoom and like this. They're learning things that hinder the actual interaction that takes place. There's a delay, you know, there's a little delay in Zoom. There's a way that you know, some people don't know that you can you can write it, so you're looking at the right side of the face. It's so awful, but it looks like it's the same. The way I thought about it, because I tried to teach my graduate students about it. I say, you know, Zoom interactions are like cotton candy. They look like they really look good. And you take a lot of them in, but they give you nothing. No, no nutrients for interpersonal interaction. Don't take what you're doing on Zoom and try to apply it to an actual interaction, because it doesn't translate. And so I see that as, you know, both the rescuer of the intellectual side, everybody's concerned about the loss of academics for the kids. And that's, and that's true. But it has been less devastating than what it's done to nonverbal communication. 

 

00:33:16    Alyssa

Sure. Sure. 

 

00:33:18    Dr. Nowicki

Especially since parents were also,  instead of interacting with the kids were also on their screens. 

 

00:33:24    Alyssa

Exactly. Yeah. 

 

00:33:27    Dr. Nowicki

Did you did you see they had a new study, Pew just did a a new study, where they did telephone use in parents and kids. And it's a wonderful study, because the adolescents, the early young adolescents said that they felt better, seven out of 10 of them felt better when they didn't have their phones. 

 

00:33:47    Alyssa

Of course, yeah. 

 

00:33:48    Dr. Nowicki

And then they asked, how many of you are going to do this? And it was like... 

 

00:33:52    Alyssa

Zero. Zero. 

 

00:33:54    Dr. Nowicki

They know its no good for them, but they won't do it. 

 

00:33:57    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:33:57    Dr. Nowicki

The thing that was interesting to me is that they said they were upset with their parents because their parents were on the screens when they were supposed to be with them. 

 

00:34:08    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. 

 

00:34:10    Dr. Nowicki

And so that it's still, you know, the technical stuff is still there. It's still robbing children, elementary school age children, early adolescents spend four hours a week less now in interaction than they did in the previous generation. 

 

00:34:25    Alyssa

Sure, sure. Well, and I think so many ways we were just chatting about this, my husband and I, like phone use and noting like our parents versus us and what do we want to model for Sage and Mila and I was saying like one of the things that I find complicated about the phone now that just frankly didn't exist for me as child was that is it so much is done on it. Like, we order our groceries, or we are like, that's where work happens. Or we have an Airbnb. And so we'll if a message comes up that a guest can't get in the door, like, we have to be able to help them, right. And before it was a house phone, someone would call a house phone, and you could answer it. And, or like growing up in my household, if the phone rang during dinner, it wasn't answered. That was just part of our family culture. And the other day we're having dinner in a group and two people's phones are like making noises during dinner. And even though they didn't go answer them, all of a sudden the attention is pulled and Sage ended up noting it. Sage was like, I hear a phone. But so, so much of that happens in that way. And then also like, as like a part two of that, I'm ordering my groceries on the phone and then I can just pull in and pick them up, which I love for the convenience of my life. And I'm not taking my kid into the store. We're losing that interaction time. He is losing the interaction time of being in the store and interacting with folks within the store. I feel like there's missed opportunities there. And I battle between like, is it, or am I replacing those opportunities with just other social opportunities for him because I can do this with the groceries but then maybe we have more time to go to the park or something like that. Am I thinking too much about it? Sometimes I wonder. 

 

00:36:20    Dr. Nowicki

Yeah. Yeah. With two children, you're going to have a lot more of that as it goes along. So yeah, you're gonna have to be a palm tree, you're just gonna have to go. I think the I think you've got the gist of what's important. I think people know they're missing something. They don't quite know what it is. And that's, that's why I wrote the the book, because one I want to make parents and teachers aware that one of the important things they're missing is this language. And it's not just a throwaway, it's a language as potent as verbal language. And it's the kind of language that when you pit it against verbal language, you believe it. If somebody says to you, I'm feeling well, how are you today? I'm fine. You don't listen to the words, you pick up that and you go with the nonverbal. So anytime it's pitted against verbal language, we believe the nonverbal language. It's that important. 

 

00:37:22    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:37:23    Dr. Nowicki

And if you misread, or mis-express it, you create the kind of problems that interfere with, I think the most important thing we do as human beings, and that is to form relationships. It gets in the way. 

 

00:37:37    Alyssa

Yeah, 

 

00:37:38    Dr. Nowicki

It prevents things. It prevents things at the at the beginning, it gets in the way of deepening and making friends, and it gets in the way of transitioning from the end of a relationship so that you can understand and look back on what you did to find out what you did right and wrong so that you can begin the next set of relationship better. Each of those things, without nonverbal language skill, is interfered with. And that means you don't learn what you need to learn to take on this next set of more complex relationships as you get older. 

 

00:38:15    Alyssa

Yeah. I think it affects authenticity in relationships. Does that make sense? 

 

00:38:22    Dr. Nowicki

Absolutely

 

00:38:22    Alyssa

Like when you say the like, I'm fine, but like, we're like, you're not fine. Or, you know, I was just having conversations with a teacher the other day who has a child who is very challenging for her, very triggering for her. And I was like, listen, when that kid walks in, if you're like, I'm so glad you're here, he knows you're not by everything you're not saying, like by this nonverbal language. And I was like, instead of-- because she was trying to find ways to connect in ways that weren't actually authentic for her. So she was trying to say the right words, but wasn't feeling that. And so then she wasn't expressing that nonverbally. I'm sure her body language, I'm sure so much communication was happening outside of the 'I'm so glad you're here' words. And this kid wasn't feeling it. They weren't connecting with her. And we just reworked the system. I was like, instead of starting with that, which is gonna be, I bet feels inauthentic for him, I wonder what it would look like for when he comes in, if there's an invitation to play on the table, that's a topic we know he's really into, say superheroes, and now we're doing something with it. And you can just genuinely be there to play with him and have a genuine connection in your relationship that would maybe foster more than the, I'm so glad you're here. 

 

00:39:40    Dr. Nowicki

I consult with Georgia's Severely Emotionally Disturbed Program and Behavioral Disorder Program. These are schools set all over the state of Georgia that the most severely disturbed kids are put in these places and they get really good treatment. And the teachers I think are fabulous, front line, battling these kids to get them the chance to have a life. And we start out the year together. We always like to visit at the beginning of the year. I consult, we talk, I talk about relationships and how these kids are relationship, zero probability of success kids. Everybody's given up on them and dumped them on you now, and you've got more than one of them. So it's going to be tough, make your goals amenable, make them small so that you can make some progress and then stop and celebrate the progress because otherwise these kids will never notice it and you won't either because you wanna make them all perfectly normal and fine and they're gonna take a while to do that. And I visit them in February, I make sure I visit every one of the programs in February because in February, when I come and observe the classes, the teachers are saying exactly the same things as they did at the beginning, but the incongruence between what they're saying and the non -verbals is this big. 

 

00:41:06    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:41:07    Dr. Nowicki

It's what you're talking about. It's like, good morning class. I'm really glad to see you. 

 

00:41:14    Alyssa

Yeah, it sounds like it, really feels like it. 

 

00:41:18    Dr. Nowicki

And I understand that. And I said, that's why I'm here. I said, this is the turning point right here. You're battling these kids, because, you know, they're the kinds of kids who have learned that all relationships fail. And they're going to try and teach you that. That's their life, that's what they're used to. And you're here, you're the person that says they don't have to fail, they can be successful. And I say in February, by February, there's more of them than there is of you. But you know, don't give up. This is part of the process. You have to realize is that this idea that you have that you can't do anything right, and you're failing with these kids, that's how they feel. That's how they see life. And so you've gained some understanding of what it's like to be them. Now use that to build small steps of progress, because you now understand them. You know what it's like to feel like you can't do anything right that's going to make this work. But it's the influence of verbal and nonverbal. And these kids have a lot of what they do wrong. That's where I first became interested in this was through these programs for the severely emotionally disturbed, because they would train the kids, adolescence program. They would train them in social skills, verbal. And so they trained this one young guy, he was about 6 '2", adolescent, to when came to visit on a consultation visit to say, Good morning, Dr. Nowicki, how are you? Have a nice day. And so I walked into the school. And I walked in and, and I'll call him Jim, Jim walks over to me. And he stands here. He says, Good morning, Dr. Nowicki, how are you? Have a, hope you have a good day. I said, Well, Jim, I will have a good day if you just take one step back. So that-- they had forgotten to teach him the non verbals. 

 

00:43:19    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:43:20    Dr. Nowicki

And space is important. And the size of an adolescent who is 6'2",  space violation is a crucial error. 

 

00:43:30    Alyssa

For sure. And it's a threat. It's a threat. And that's what I think, like, Oh my gosh, again, I wish I had seven hours with you. I, when it comes to teaching this, I wonder, A, like how do we help kids start to tune into this? How do we teach it? Is it similar? You know, you said the like modeling of the, like it's informal. And then beyond that, when you have, I just feel like that's such a beautiful example of Jim coming so close to you and being able to teach, like, yes, I will, if you can step back, which is I see a teaching moment of like, this is too close. And here's kind of a more appropriate distance. And yeah, so I guess like, what does it look like to teach kids these skills when maybe it's happening informally? And I'm thinking also, like neurodivergent humans who may not pick up on those skills that are being modeled all the time? And how do we teach them in a more direct way, kind of like you just used as an example. 

 

00:44:37    Dr. Nowicki

I mean, that's, that's, that's the exciting part about this to me, because it's learned. This is learned behavior. And it can bought at any age, we've actually developed a curriculum that you can apply in schools, teach each of these personal space, para language, tone of voice, etc. And that's why I'm in it, because it's, if you make people aware, and that's the main thing I want to do with my book is to make people aware that this is going on and this is happening. 

 

00:45:08    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:45:09    Dr. Nowicki

And, and teachers, how I want to get teachers involved, is because teachers teach and when I give talks to schools, if the teachers get it, they know how to teach this stuff. They can, they can develop that it is certainly because... I got I got 17 different things I want say to you right now in the five minutes I have. So so if I may rush over this, but I want to make sure that gets important things across. 

 

00:45:36    Alyssa

Please

 

00:45:37    Dr. Nowicki

One is that it can be taught directly. And that's what in some instances, especially with the neurodivergent kids, this is what has to be done. I mean, autism, for instance, the definition of autism is that the inability to use nonverbal language. But they can be taught at least some rudiments of it. So it can be directly taught, and there are models for that, especially from learning disability literature about how to break down components to teach. And I have written about that, and I have manuals for that as well. But the more global impact of the book is that I want to call attention to parents and teachers that they are going to have to be more active in the teaching of this, because the old way of doing it isn't available, in as great a portion as it was before. Your childhood, my childhood isn't there. That's gone, this generation and your your two children are growing into a generation that will not have that kind of experience. So you you need to be able to supplement what happened before more naturally with something that's more in conscious awareness. And throughout the book, for each of the nonverbal channels, I tried to give the parents simple things they can do. They don't have to sit down and have a whole lesson plan out. But for instance, you said at dinner table, the phones are going off. Eat together. That's one of the primary things to have. But put the phones in a different room. And that damn text noise can come through walls. So I don't know, put it in a safe, put it in the refrigerator, put it someplace where it doesn't, everybody goes up and starts looking where is my phone. There has to be more of the interaction and I would pull grandparents into it. 

 

00:47:36    Alyssa

Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like my parents' generation also is like sometimes more addicted to the phones where we're like, put it away. This kid's talking to you. 

 

00:47:46    Dr. Nowicki

Yes, yes, yes. Come, you know, do do with the kids, you could ask your grandparents to do with your children what they did with you in the sense of, they talked to you, they, they sang, when you're an infant, they sang songs to you. When my granddaughter was born, I mean, she was like, I had just had open heart surgery. And I was recovering. And she was, she was there, and I would get her. And she was just this big, and she would fit right on my chest. One of my favorite photos I have in my office is me sitting in a chair with her here. And in the fact and I would sing to her, I would I would sing to her. And I was taking care of her. But she was taking care of me. And that's the kind of exchange of rhythm and song and it can begin to have an impact early on. So anything like that, any kind of experience of storytelling, now you take that role, now you say this, to get, again, to mimic the give and take, the rhythm of social interaction. With Sage, one of the things that kids from two to four have is the fact that they monopolize. 

 

00:49:06    Alyssa

Sure do, they sure do. 

 

00:49:09    Dr. Nowicki

Ask a thousand questions a minute and and one of the things I I suggest to parents is that they need to teach these the children of that age to wait. They need to be able to teach this child turn -taking because if this continues and it does in some kids because there's not the the kinds of experiences that would model, that would change that for them, that they don't exist as much anymore. You have to more directly help him learn that there is time for another person to respond before you give the third thing or say the same thing the 18th time sort of thing. 

 

00:49:51    Alyssa

Yes, oh my gosh, it's like you're living in my house right now. We recently started talking about this where we have two things. One, talking about shared attention, now that he has a sister, and that sometimes he has all of an adult's attention, sometimes it's shared attention, and sometimes Mila has all of an adult's attention. And we're talking about what can he do when he doesn't have the adult's attention and he feels left out or wants to connect. And so building some of those skills, but the other one is the like constant questions. And we have introduced the word patient and been talking a lot about like, what does it mean to be patient? And how does it feel in your body when you're trying to be patient and helping him tune into that? Yeah, please. 

 

00:50:39    Dr. Nowicki

The only thing I would suggest with that is to introduce some nonverbal cues. Say, can you tell that, this is the face I'm going to have when I when it says that's enough? 

 

00:50:49    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:50:50    Dr. Nowicki

Here's what I'm going to say. so that you begin to not only use the words because the two to four -year -olds have this facility to use words to get you to use more words. 

 

00:51:00    Alyssa

Correct

 

00:51:00    Dr. Nowicki

And you want to cut into that and you want them, what you want them to pay attention to, because that's what's going to pay off down the line is the nonverbal cues of the other person. If I put my hand up, in other words, you can use gestures as a cue, you can use facial expressions, you can use tone of voice, tune him into that and that battle is one that I think is even more important than the verbal battle because they win a lot of those. 

 

00:51:31    Alyssa

For sure. 

 

00:51:32    Dr. Nowicki

But you have a better chance, I think, to introduce him into something that will really be a powerful cue for him to use when he's on his own. 

 

00:51:44    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:51:44    Dr. Nowicki

And not having you there to, to say with your words, stop that. 

 

00:51:48    Alyssa

Yep. Love this. Love the introduction of those cues. Oh, again, I want so much of your time. And I'm so grateful for what you have given us. I'm super jazzed for this book, Raising a Socially Successful Child to be out in the world to have the, you know, my research is in building emotional intelligence and kids. And one of the components of emotional intelligence to social skills, and that ability to read the room, to be able to differentiate how do I show up at grandma's house versus at school or with my peers or at church or wherever. And in order to have those skills, the nonverbal language is so deeply crucial. So thank you, thank you for your work. Thank you for writing this. I'm really excited for folks to get to snag this book. 

 

00:52:37    Dr. Nowicki

You're very welcome. Anytime you wanna have me back, please do. Or if we chat some other time, that would be super terrific. 

 

00:52:43    Alyssa

I love that. Thank you so much. 

 

00:52:45    Dr. Nowicki

Take care. 

 

00:52:47    Alyssa

You too. 

 

(Music)

 

00:52:52    Alyssa

Earlier today, Sage was watching this YouTube video. There was a go -kart on it. And he was like, Mama, when I get big, could I ride a go -kart someday? And I was like, yeah, buddy, totally. We can figure out a way to make that happen. We'll have to find someone who has a go -kart. And he said, I think Uncle Coco has a go -kart. And I was like, actually, I think you're right. Anytime we talk about like outdoor toys, he's like, I think Uncle Coco has it. 

 

00:53:21    Rachel

Yeah, we do have one. And as soon as you guys feel safe with him riding it, he can. 

 

00:53:27    Alyssa

I mean, he fricking rips right now. We got that John Deere Power Wheels tractor and he's honestly like doing way better on it than I anticipated. He can, like, stop on a dime, pop off, throw something in the trailer, hop in, whip around. He opens our gate, goes over to the neighbors in it, like, uses it like a little car. He's cruising. 

 

00:53:50    Rachel

He would love the go -kart. I'd have Nora drive it, I think. Definitely not Abel yet. And as long as he has, like, a DOT -approved helmet, he's good to go. 

 

00:54:01    Alyssa

Great. We'll bring a helmet when we come. I will let him know after nap time and he's gonna be like, when are we going to Uncle Coco's? 

 

00:54:07    Rachel

Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's a good, like, safer machine. We just started letting Nora drive an ATV. The go -kart has a roll cage. So, like, there's just a level of safety there that doesn't exist on a lot of other machines. 

 

00:54:21    Alyssa

Yeah, he's also, like, he's not a risk taker, right? 

 

00:54:25    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

00:54:26    Alyssa

He's so Zach. So Zach. 

 

00:54:28    Rachel

In so many ways.

 

00:54:30    Alyssa

I was, like, ripping heaters at 14 and having parties at my house. And like I, one time my parents were gone and my friend Jess and I took one of the, we took a car and drove it just for fun. Little joy ride. Like good Lord. And Zach was like never, ever, ever would push a boundary. One time we were, when we were moving to Vermont, so we were late 20s, I guess, we're at the storage facility and he's like, got to pee so bad. Like, can we swing through that McDonald's on the way home? I got to pee. And I was like, yeah, why don't you just pee here? There's a whole bunch of these like storage containers. Nobody's here. It was like a rainy, gross day. Yeah. Go pee somewhere here. And he was like, I bet there's cameras, like whatever. And I was like, no one cares. Nobody cares. Like go pee. 

 

00:55:27    Rachel

He's always been, I mean, as teenagers, like he was just so methodical in everything. 

 

00:55:35    Alyssa

And that's Sage now. They're like, Sage will not just push a boundary. He'll push the ones like annoying little ones, right? Like, and say like, no, I don't want to do that. But if it's about safety or anything related to safety or if he would like, quote, really get in trouble for it, then he will not. 

 

00:55:54    Rachel

Yeah, he is so Zach. 

 

00:55:56    Alyssa

They're so similar. And Beans is so me, and I'm like, she's gonna be ripping heaters at 14 and driving a car and... 

 

00:56:04    Rachel

I feel like right now, you know, Nora is like Cody in so many ways, but as she's moving into this like tween stage of development, there's definitely a lot of like my sass coming through. Like we are in it right now. 

 

00:56:18    Alyssa

Yeah, yeah. 

 

00:56:20    Rachel

With each other. Like I am a sassy human. 

 

00:56:23    Alyssa

Same

 

00:56:23    Rachel

And so like I have to work so hard not to like give the sass back because it just like triggers her, but it wants to come out so much. 

 

00:56:34    Alyssa

100%. Like you think you've got this? I've been sassing for years, sis. I've got, I can outsass you.

 

00:56:40    Rachel

Any day of the week, you know, and there's part of me that wants to like this very like, immature part of me that wants to read that to her and be like, you want to go? Because I'll show you how mama can roll. You haven't seen it yet. Do you want to? You know, it's--

 

00:56:54    Alyssa

So  relatable.

 

00:56:57    Rachel

And actually, to tie it into what we're actually supposed to be talking about, during Dr. Nowicki's interview when he was talking about nonverbal communication, something that has been a challenge for me with Nora almost forever is that it's hard for her to get vulnerable with her emotions, at least verbally. I'll say I love you and she'll say I love you back, but if I try to really dig in and and be like, oh, I'm so grateful for you. You're such an important part of our family. She's just kind of like, mom, ugh. And like, that's been going on for a while. And like, I used to write her notes. Cause I was like, okay, if talking about it is uncomfortable for you, I'll write you notes. So like, I would write her notes. And then at some point she was like, mom, can you stop doing that? And so I'm always like, how can I make sure that she knows that I love her and she's so important to me. And I'm so grateful for her. When she really doesn't care to hear those words or see them. 

 

00:57:56    Alyssa

Or see them 

 

00:57:56    Rachel

I mean, Noni is the sweetest, you know how sweet Noni is. 

 

00:58:00    Alyssa

So sweet. But Sage is like this too. We're like, he's not, they have so many similarities. So keep going. 

 

00:58:06    Rachel

Yeah, they do. Yeah. She's just not here for like a love fest. 

 

00:58:10    Alyssa

Nope. 

 

00:58:10    Rachel

And so when I was listening to this interview and he was talking about nonverbal communication and like creating rhythms. I was realizing that like I'm like a verbal person so I'm always trying to like show her my love verbally and like the non -verbal things that I could or should do with her I'm not because I'm like talking to her but I'm like making dinner or I'm talking to her but I'm driving the car and so like she wants eye contact and she wants me to like not be distracted by anything else and play with her or talk to her about her interests. It's the non -verbals that I think I'm missing with her as I'm working to figure out how to connect with her. And so this interview was so interesting to me and such a good reminder of like, it doesn't have to be verbal communication. There's value in other ways of communicating. 

 

00:59:04    Alyssa

This is so helpful because they are so similar, Sage and Nones. And I, just today at my gardening day today where I was being a gardener, 

 

00:59:15    Rachel

A.K.A touching dirt 

 

00:59:18    Alyssa

--that's legit I touched dirt. I pulled some weeds out of, when we moved into the house we're in right now there was a like tomato garden like raised bed thing that obviously since we moved in, I've done nothing with there are no tomatoes and Sage really wants to garden there he wants to plant stuff this year. So I'm trying and it was nice and Beaners was snoozing outside in the like stroller, and my phone was inside, I had nothing else and key, there were no other adults around for me to talk to because that's something I often will do where I'm like chatting with him but like having conversation with Zach or someone else and it was just him and I in digging in the dirt. And he felt so filled and you could feel it. He felt so connected. He was so regulated. And then after that, I was like, all right, buddy, I'm going to go pop in and nurse Beans and get your lunch ready. And he was like, all right, see ya. Whereas a lot of the times he's not like, all right, see ya. He wants more and more and it can feel like a leaky connection cup with him. And it was one of those light bulb moments where I was like, because he actually felt connected. And it does require, there's so much nonverbal between us where he actually feels connected. And you're right, like I'm like doing seven other things all the time. And so I'm like, I've been hanging out with you all day, but it doesn't feel like that for him. 

 

01:00:44    Rachel

I also think it's tricky for kids like Sage and Noni who don't love physical affection. 

 

01:00:53    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:00:53    Rachel

So, you know, sometimes when I think of like nonverbal, I'm thinking like, okay, well, like, for Abel, it's so easy to meet that connection need because all he needs to do is be touching me, and it doesn't matter if I'm distracted. Like, just snuggling up and watching a show is like, his cup is filled by that. Mama, come sit with me. Like, that's his thing that he says. Nora doesn't want me to verbally tell her how much I love her, and she also doesn't want me to hug or kiss her. She wants me to pay attention to her. 

 

01:01:23    Alyssa

100%. 

 

01:01:23    Rachel

And with my body language. 

 

01:01:27    Alyssa

And it's not how you and I operate. Like I will say I love you and I will snuggle up and those feel really easy for me to give. And the way that Nones and Sage feel connected and receive love doesn't feel easy for me to give. I have to be so intentional. Yeah, it's pretty cool to get to like watch you go through this and see glimpses of like, alright, what kind of a little bit like what does it look like in different ages and stages? And it's been fun to be able to bring that into the book that we're writing too of like, what does it look like to connect with all different types of kids who receive connection in all different ways? One thing that I was thinking about after this episode, gosh, I could have talked to him forever. I feel like I kept saying that, like, I want seven hours. 

 

01:02:12    Rachel

It was so good. 

 

01:02:12    Alyssa

It's so good. And it's so huge. And this conversation has stuck with me in a lot of ways. And I think, you know, little things like when Sage is like, mom, mama, mama, mom, mama, letting him know that instead of just saying like, excuse me, mama, that he can come up and squeeze my hand or whatever. Those like nonverbal cues have been really helpful for him because of who he is, too. But another thing I was really thinking about that I've just been sitting with is this idea of, I was mindful in this conversation around like neurotypical humans versus neurodivergence. And I find myself sometimes in this like wavering space of how do we support kids with tools to thrive and be successful in relationships and communication and work and all that jazz, school, and also not try and have like a cookie cutter type of human, you know? And the reality is that the way that people will respond to my kids has to do with how my kids will show up in the world, right? And so if Sage comes in and he says like, oh, hey, nice to meet you and shakes someone's hand, or like asks them a question and has a conversation with them and builds connection with somebody, it might open up doors for him to have success in the workplace or in other spaces that he might not have if he doesn't have those kind of social skills. And I've had these kind of dueling parts. They're like, ugh, but I don't want to be like, everyone has to be like this. Does that make sense? 

 

01:04:00    Rachel

Yeah, totally. I think we live in a world that's set up for neurotypical humans and so it makes sense to me to acknowledge that that's wrong and want to change it and also know that that's the world our kids are currently growing up in and wanting them to have the tools to succeed in that. Something that came up for me during this which I think kind of connects to this was that he said something about how like as adults we you know there's this back -and -forth rhythm of nonverbal communication right and it's supposed to that like they communicate with us non -verbally and we kind of take that in and then respond in turn, but often as adults we step in and interrupt. And I think that when we're thinking about children who are neurodiverse, a big part of setting them up for success will be like resisting the urge to step in and interrupt their rhythm, but to like, this reminds me of um the conversation that we had about parenting a disabled child where like letting them learn how to communicate in their own way and celebrating that instead of being like this isn't gonna work in the world. you know?  So it's like finding that balance of allowing your kid to create their own rhythms of non -verbal communication while also trying to give them tools to be successful at school or get a job when they're an adult. 

 

01:05:30    Alyssa

100%. Because Sage and Zach are so similar, I'm the kid who always had my hand in the air. The social piece of being a human feels really natural and easy for me and cup -filling even. And Zach and Sage, that's not the case. Like it is not even something that feels important for them a lot of the time. Like I, if I have too much time without engaging with other adults or hanging out with friends or whatever, I'm like itching for it. I want some of it. And we wouldn't have, Zach wouldn't, all of our friends in our adult life are from me being like, Hi, I met this couple and now we're hanging out with these people. And Zach's like, cool, he's down with it, but he doesn't seek it out. It doesn't fill his cup like it fills mine. It's not a need that he has like I have. And so watching this in Sage too, I see things like, I want him to be able to be in a meeting and know how to use his voice and share his thoughts and whatever. And I watch Zach like work on this skill as an adult. And the reality is his brain is such a details brain that he takes more time, and is so much more thoughtful in his responses than I ever am. I auditorily process. And watching humans who really take in that nonverbal piece, it's a practice for me, I realize. I've been so focused on how do I support Sage with these things. And now I'm like, ooh, how do I learn how to sometimes slow down and pay attention to more of the nonverbal and just pause the verbal side of it. 

 

01:07:16    Rachel

Totally. I think that's definitely an area of growth for me too. The other day we were like getting out of the house and I was feeling kind of frazzled. I didn't say anything, but I was just like, we're getting out of the house and I'm kind of in a rush and I am buckling Abel into his car seat. And to me, I'm acting normally. I'm just quiet. And he's like, mama, why are you mad? And I'm like, oh, I'm not mad, buddy, but I am feeling rushed and I'm a little bit stressed about the timing of things right now. But he had just like watched the way that I was moving my body and noticed that I like wasn't smiling and probably had like kind of a sour look on my face. He is a very detail -oriented kid and picks up on non -verbals. Oftentimes verbal communication is overwhelming to him. So he's like looking at body language all the time. And I am so verbal in about everything that I miss that sometimes. 

 

01:08:12    Alyssa

Yeah. I was like, oh, this is I often, you know, I'm like, how do I support them? And I was like, this is the me thing, like slowing down and letting this be. And I find it easy to do with babies and then harder as people get older. Like I had said to the lactation consultant and who came to try and help give Mila get a bottle, LOL. I said, she's such a good communicator. And she said, she has a good listener. And I was like, you know what? Thank you. This is true. This is something that I think like, I enjoy like communication with babies. And it's, I mean, it's all nonverbal for so long. And then as kids get older and like verbal language is a part of it, it's almost like I, there's so much nonverbal that I miss at that point. 

 

01:09:01    Rachel

Yeah, totally. I relate to that. I find it easy to pause and observe a baby to see what they're trying to tell me, because there's no other way, right? It's like, you want to know what a baby's communicating. You got to slow down and watch them. And then when words come into play, it's like the hustle and bustle of life kind of gets to you, right? And you're like, just say it. What do you need? Just tell me. 

 

01:09:24    Alyssa

100%. Well, and I think that like when we can pause and pull back, the whole idea of behavior is a communication of a need. The words don't usually matter, right? You're the worst mom, you're whatever. But when all we hear is the verbal, then we react to that. And that is what we're like, they can't go around saying X, Y, and Z. And we can get so focused on the behavior.  Versus babies, probably if they had words, would say some gnarly things too, but they don't have them. And so it slows us down to say like, what do they need? I don't think they're just crying to cry. I think they're crying because they need something. And then as kids get older and they have verbal language, I think we have that as like the end all be all. And it becomes harder to slow down and pay attention to the nonverbal and say like, oh, what's going on here? We were just visiting family for the weekend. Sage poops every day. We left on Friday. He pooped on Thursday, we came home on Sunday, he didn't poop till the we're coming home Sunday. So you didn't poop Friday, he didn't poop Saturday, Saturday by the evening, he was batshit crazy. All over the place. He couldn't sit still, he was like bouncing off the walls. And he's not a bouncing off the walls kid usually. 

 

01:10:40    Rachel

No, he's not.

 

01:10:40    Alyssa

And he was nutty. 

 

01:10:42    Rachel

He was uncomfortable

 

01:10:44    Alyssa

So, exactly. But we just kept like on the surface, like what is going on? He's so loud, he's yelling, he's whatever. And if you just like paused and watched his body and all the nonverbal, he couldn't sit still, he couldn't eat, he couldn't do all of these things that at the root of it was, I'm uncomfortable because I have to go poop and I'm having a hard time pooping on the road. 

 

01:11:08    Rachel

Yeah, I think that also going back to what you were saying before, like sometimes it's especially difficult to tune into nonverbals when your kid says something that's really triggering, like you're the worst mom, or Abel's most recent one is like you're not my mom anymore and I'm like honestly could use a break...

 

01:11:25    Alyssa

I wish Mila wasn't a part of my family.

 

01:11:28    Rachel

Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah actually Nora told Abel that she hated him for the first time this past week and that was a little bit triggering for me.

 

01:11:38    Alyssa

Sure

 

01:11:38    Rachel

I think that, you know, being a big sister is challenging and that's what was coming up for her. But anyway, I think it's really difficult to tune into the nonverbals when the verbal is so jarring and triggering, and there's a part of you that wants to make sure right away that they know that it's not okay to say that. But like, when Abel told me that I wasn't his mom anymore, he was also like close to tears and extremely frustrated with me. And I could tell by the way that like his hands were clenched into tight fists and his brows were furrowed and all of that. And yeah, the words suck, but like getting past that and tuning into what's actually happening in their body is what allows us to then meet the need. 

 

01:12:28    Alyssa

Yeah, exactly. And I think of this in the relationship to like interceptive awareness, that like awareness of what's happening in your body and helping kids start to tune in to like, am I hungry? Am I tired? Do I have to go to the bathroom? What am I feeling? And when we can notice things in their body and identify that, like I said to Sage on the way home on Sunday, I was like, buddy, I noticed when we were at Aunt Mary's that your body was having a really hard time sitting and eating, or not jumping all around, and spinning. And I was curious if you felt like you had to go poop and so it was hard to sit still. And he was like, I do have to go poop. I need a rest stop. This was on our drive home. And I was like, for sure, bud, the next rest stop we can stop at. And the next rest stop we stopped at, he's also famous for pooping at rest stops, won't poop at Aunt Mary's or school or any other, but will poop at a rest stop.  He will request a rest stop when we're like driving through town. And I'm like, there is, bud, we're not on a fast road. There isn't a rest stop here. He's like, Can we find one? 

 

01:13:38    Rachel

Is he worried about like people other than you or Zach that he knows, like knowing that he's pooping or hearing him poop? Cause like, I also would rather poop in front of strangers. 

 

01:13:49    Alyssa

True. 

 

01:13:50    Rachel

You know, than like pooping right next to my mom or like my cousin. 

 

01:13:56    Alyssa

Or Aunt Mary. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, maybe. 

 

01:13:59    Rachel

I don't want to poop in front of Aunt Mary. 

 

01:14:00    Alyssa

I asked him why he likes to poop at a rest stop and he said, I like to have a snack after because we're at a rest stop so that he can get snacks. 

 

01:14:10    Rachel

Convenience is king

 

01:14:10    Alyssa

He's like, well, we're here. But I just like helped him start to tune into that. And I think with like the nonverbal piece, it's helping to build awareness because so much of it, we as adults might not be aware of, they're not aware of, and helping them learn like, oh yeah, when you walk into a room, if you don't look at somebody, they don't know that you're talking to them. Or when you're standing next to Nana and you're telling her a story, but you haven't gotten her attention first, she doesn't know you're telling her a story. You could say, Nana, I have something to tell you and put your hand on her hand. And so those are things that since this episode, I've just tried to be more aware of, helping him be socially successful by noticing where his body is and what it's doing and helping him clue into the people around him. When he says he feels nervous about somebody or something, I will ask, I wonder where their body was? Did their body come closer to you? Was their voice loud? Was their body bigger than yours and standing over top of you? Just helping him start to notice these things that he can decode. 

 

01:15:25    Rachel

Right. And connect to what it felt like in the moment. 

 

01:15:28    Alyssa

Yeah. And what it like really is that he's nervous about. And he ended up telling me there was somebody at school that, he had said, he was nervous. He didn't like being near them on the playground. And I was like, huh, I wonder why you don't like being near them on their playground. I wonder how it felt when their body was near your body. And he said their body is spinning. And I was like, oh, they like to spin around. And he was like, and they're going to bonk into me. And I was like, well, that makes total sense. Right? but it's all that nonverbal that he's so aware of. And I just helped him tune into that. And I was like, Oh yeah, that makes sense. But when somebody is spinning and their body looks out of control, makes sense to be nervous about that. And then got to tie it back into Mila actually, like a few days later when he was like spinning and all over the living room. And I was like, Oh, she just jumped. I think she noticed you were coming close to her and spinning. And I wonder if when you were spinning out of control, if she felt nervous about her safety. 

 

01:16:28    Rachel

Yeah. I love that. And something that came up for me is like on the surface when Sage said, I don't want them to be near me on the playground. I think when your kid says something like that, it's so easy to fall into like, why are you not social? Why are you afraid of kids on the playground? Like what's, can't you just play? Like, why aren't you able to connect with your peers? That used to come up with me a lot for Abel who would get overwhelmed by the noise and the movement around him when he was with peers. And I would, you know, it was kind of a trigger for me. Like, can you just play with your friends? You know? And I think, like, doing that detective work of, like, it's not that Sage isn't social. And it's not that he's not capable of playing with his friends on the playground. There was something going on there, right? 

 

01:17:14    Alyssa

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And it, but that, like, decoding work, 100%, I have to be regulated for you're right. Because I want him to have social success. 

 

01:17:23    Rachel

Of course you do. Yeah. You don't want him to have hard social experiences. And I relate to that, but this is great skill building for him because he will have social experiences that are hard for him as we all do. And building that awareness is so key. 

 

01:17:42    Alyssa

Yeah. And for me, it's also sometimes letting go of he doesn't want to connect with as many people as I want to connect with. 

 

01:17:52    Rachel

Oh, yes. 

 

01:17:53    Alyssa

And like, that's okay. He doesn't want to go to the party. He doesn't want and like same with Zach. I remember we were just dating, because the, we started dating when the twins were born and the twins were like a month old, and we went to Brian and Logan's my brother and sister -in -law's and to like meet the twins and is Zach was meeting my brother and sister -in -law at the same time that we were meeting the twins and we're there and he, we were going to go for a walk. Like all of us were going for a walk and he was like, I'm going to hang back and just like, chill. I'll see when you get back. And I was like, on the walk, I was like, look, this is a red flag, right? Like he doesn't even want to come on the walk? And she was like, maybe he just needs some downtime. Like there's so many people in our family. And I was like, yeah, 

 

01:18:43    Rachel

This is a red flag (laughing)

 

01:18:43    Alyssa

And I was like, yeah, but it's one weekend like and she was like, what's the harm in him staying back? And I was like, is he going to be able to hang with our family if he can't even come on this walk? And she was like, I think he is doing a pretty good job hanging with our family and basically gave me the perspective of like, maybe him staying back from this walk that doesn't friggin matter is how he's able to hang with our family. And I was like, okay, I needed that because it's so hard for me to wrap my head around. I just want to also make sure that when there are things that Sage wants to have access to socially, that he has the skillset to do that. 

 

01:19:26    Rachel

Yeah, totally. And that if he doesn't want that, that's also okay. 

 

01:19:29    Alyssa

That's the me part. 

 

01:19:32    Rachel

I struggle with that too. I'm a social person. It fills my cup to be around friends. And it does Abel to a certain extent, and then he's done, and he's done long before I am. One other thing that I want to touch on before we wrap this up is that in the interview, I'm trying to remember exactly how he worded it, but essentially it was like, nonverbal communication impacts our authenticity. And this is an area of growth for me with my kids because I am always pulled to other tasks and so like I'm half there and half not kind of a deal with them mentally. And so like my responses are not always authentic because I'm kind of just like things roll off my tongue, you know, like phrases that we use in our parenting. And they know when I'm not fully present, obviously. Like they know from infancy when you're not fully present to them. And so that was kind of like, I don't know, just something that's been on my mind since I listened to the interview of like, where are times in the day where I can pause on like all the other things that have to happen so that my nonverbal communication is like in line with my verbal communication and I'm showing up authentically for them. And obviously I can't do it all the time. I have too much on my plate, but there are times where I can pause for five minutes and authentically connect with them. 

 

01:21:05    Alyssa

Okay, yes. I forgot about this part of this. This has been coming up for me a lot lately as I've been wondering if I'm living with postpartum depression. And part of the wondering is that it's not what I've seen in other people of like, I'm so sad. I feel like what I can do is mask. I can, on the surface, say the words I'm supposed to say. I can sometimes, especially for people outside of my home, show up in a way that just looks like things are fine. And then I find myself almost outside looking in where I'm saying the words, but I'm not feeling it. I'm not actually present to it. I don't feel like I'm there. It's like I'm watching. 

 

01:21:59    Rachel

There's a disconnect. 

 

01:22:00    Alyssa

Correct. And I found it, just like, I feel like it's getting worse, not better. And so diving into that now, but I noticed it mostly with like Sage where I've been like quote, saying the right words, but the part of me that used to actually be there connecting with him when I would say those words, like, I love you so much, buddy. Even the lovey -dovey parts where I'm like, I know I'm supposed to say this. I know there's a part of me that feels this, and I'm not feeling these things necessarily. And how it has related to his reception of it. And I'm like, yeah, he isn't as receptive to a lot of these things. And I've been like, well, yeah, maybe it's just the transition from one to two, et cetera. And as time has gone on, I'm like, no, it's because I don't mean them. It's because my nonverbal cues are not matching my words in the same way that you can be like frustrated or whatever, and you're like, I'm fine, right? And like your verbal doesn't match the nonverbal. 

 

01:23:00    Rachel

Right, because your limbic system communicates with their limbic system and tells a different story. And so if you're feeling disconnected from yourself and your family because of things that are going on with your mental health, his limbic system is saying like, something's not right with mama. 

 

01:23:16    Alyssa

Exactly. And I've noticed it so much with him in particular. I'm like, Mila doesn't know anything else. This is the only me she's ever known. And I think for Zach and I, we both just chalked it up to, yeah, life's just busier with two and we're just in the whatever. But it's been interesting to notice his perception of that from the authenticity side. 

 

01:23:42    Rachel

Yeah. And you can't give you can't give, right? So it's like, right now, this is what it is. And you show up for him the best that you can. 

 

01:23:51    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:23:52    Rachel

With what you've got. 

 

01:23:53    Alyssa

Totally. Yeah. And I've just been thinking about, like, ooh, down the road when he is older, I wonder if I'll have more of a conversation with him about what that felt like inside. 

 

01:24:05    Rachel

Yeah. I've had chats with - 

 

01:24:07    Alyssa

To be able to validate that. 

 

01:24:08    Rachel

Yeah. I've had chats with Noni about things that I couldn't do for her when I was dealing with postpartum depression in ways that I wasn't able to show up for her. And yeah, I mean, I remember one time like explosively yelling at her and that was like not our pattern or relationship prior to that. And I mean yelling at her, and still think about it. 

 

01:24:36    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:24:36    Rachel

Because it was so in opposition to this like foundation that I had built for her for her first.... Like I could cry talking about it, like it was not me. 

 

01:24:46    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:24:47    Rachel

And I hate that it happened. 

 

01:24:50    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:24:51    Rachel

And later on when I, when my mental health was in a better place, I talked to her about it and I said like, honey, there was something going on with my brain. I wasn't well. I did not mean to hurt you. I know that I did, like that's not how I feel about you. The way that I spoke to you is not kind, that's not how I want it to be between us, but like I still think about that, that thing. It affects you when you can't show up for your kids the way that you want to. 

 

01:25:20    Alyssa

A hundred percent and and when you're used to something else. 

 

01:25:25    Rachel

Yeah, when I felt like oh my gosh I'm ruining this incredible relationship that I've created with my child and worked so hard to create and here I am like screaming at her cause she's asking me to get this hairbrush for her while her newborn brother is crying in my arms. 

 

01:25:41    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:25:43    Rachel

And it just felt so far from who she had had previously as a mom and I felt like, what am I doing to my baby? 

 

01:25:52    Alyssa

Yeah, I've been in some of that over the last few months. 

 

01:25:56    Rachel

It's so, so hard to be in it. 

 

01:25:58    Alyssa

So hard, so hard. Oh, I'm glad you brought up the authenticity piece because I'd forgotten about that. And I think it is really key that we acknowledge. And I think that that leads into for a lot of kids where we're like, they have a leaky cup for connection. I think sometimes it's the authenticity piece that we're not really connecting. And so they're feeling that. Oh, this is so good. It's such a good book. I hope people snag it and dive in because it's one that I feel like we could continue to talk about and will continue to talk about in upcoming episodes, like how else this social piece shows up. It's something we're writing so much about in our book because these first five years are really heavy in the emotional piece, the individual, and then we move in like kindergarten age into this social piece that's a whole other beast. I'm glad to have this as a resource to be able to call on and jazzed for how it might inform our writing.

01:25:58    Alyssa

Yeah, so important.

 

01:26:02    Alyssa

Thanks, Rach.

 

01:26:04    Alyssa

Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.

 

Connect with Dr. Nowicki:

Website: https://www.stephennowicki.com/

Order the book: Raising a Socially Successful Child: Teaching Kids the Nonverbal Language They Need to Communicate, Connect, and Thrive

 

Connect with us:

Instagram: @seed.and.sew 

Podcast page: Voices of Your Village

Seed and Sew's Regulation Quiz: Take the Quiz

Order Tiny Humans, Big Emotions now! 

Website: seedandsew.org

 

Music by: Ruby Adams and  Bensound

 

If you think you might be struggling with postpartum depression, please reach out to your doctor or pediatrician for support. Resources are also available at Postpartum Support International, or text “HELP” to 800-944-4773.