Why Relationship is Key for Picky Eaters with Dr. Deborah MacNamara, PhD

00:00:00    Alyssa

You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I got to hang out with Dr. Deborah MacNamara. She is a dynamic speaker and best -selling author sought after for her expertise on human development, speaking at the United Nations and Dalai Lama Center for Peace and Education. She's the author of Rest, Play, Grow: Making Sense of Preschoolers and Nourished: Connection, Food, and Caring for Our Kids. Deborah is on the faculty at the Neufeld Institute and works alongside Gordon Neufeld to make sense of kids to the adults responsible for them. You might remember when we had Gordon on before and got to hang out and chat with him about connection and relationship and attachment. Dr. Deborah MacNamara's passion is to translate development through science and story, making it transferable to the home, classroom, and everyday experiences. She and I got to chat about why relationship is so key for picky eaters and how food is so much more than nutrients. Honestly, I left this conversation feeling restored and seen and like I was doing enough. You know, those conversations are so life -giving. Remember to stay tuned for the breakdown at the end with Rach where she and I dive into what this looks like in our real lives, taking the science and nerdiness and looking at practical application with a couple of parents in everyday life. Alright folks, let's dive in. 

00:01:37    Alyssa

Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans, with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together. 

00:02:00    Alyssa

Do you have tiny humans or do you have kiddos yourself? 

00:02:04    Deborah

I have big humans. I have an 18 and a 20 year old. 

00:02:07    Alyssa

18 and a 20 year old, sweet. Are they in college or are they near you? Where are they now? 

00:02:12    Deborah

They're both in university. One's close to home, one's farther away. It's an interesting transition when your kids leave home. I saw Jennifer Garner crying on Instagram the other day about her daughter graduating from high school and I'm like oh I remember. 

00:02:30    Alyssa

Yeah. 

00:02:31    Deborah

Yeah good for you mama. You're fully in the game. 

00:02:35    Alyssa

Yeah. 

00:02:36    Deborah

What about you? What are the ages of your kiddos? 

00:02:38    Alyssa

I have a three and a half year old and a six month old. I'm on the other side of this. 

00:02:44    Deborah

Yeah. 

00:02:44    Alyssa

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Very much in it. I was just saying I got up this morning before my six month old nursed at like 6 a .m. and then I left her and my husband and son sleeping and I was like I'm gonna go shower and get myself ready for the day and it was so nice to like get up before everybody and get myself ready. I was like I should do that more often and then I remembered like oh yeah I don't do that because I'm so tired. 

00:03:12    Deborah

I remember those days well. 

00:03:14    Alyssa

Yeah, yeah it's so temporary and just soaking it in, soaking these little moments in. Well, I'm excited to dive into nutrition and the connection to attachment and relationship. What led you into this space, specifically around food? 

00:03:30    Deborah

Yeah, well, I'm an attachment developmental counselor and teacher, and so I never thought I would be writing about food and attachment, to be honest with you. It's only because I, being a parent of young children, having a three -year -old who was what, wouldn't call her this now, but picky. Picky with her food and reluctant to try new things. I grew very frustrated. I started to have an attachment issue with her because I was pushing, forcing, coercing, getting into all of the bad habits that I knew better but I couldn't help myself. So I went to my mentor at the time, Dr. Gordon Neufeld, and had a conversation with him and he knew that the best answer was for me to find the answers inside of myself about what was missing in terms of the relationship. So that sent me off on a wild goose chase through the literature and I couldn't find the answers I was seeking. And so I realized something had come undone, something was broken. Why was food and feeding so based in anything but a relational perspective? Why weren't we talking about the relationship? Who feeds you? Why it matters? What about the emotions that come between us? What about the things that happen to us outside the home that affect appetite and the feeding relationship. And so it just went kaboom and I was lost in research for many, many, many, many, many years trying to put things together and interviewing people. So it's been fascinating. At some point they just said, Deb, you just need to stop. Otherwise you'll never get this written. That's what happened. 

00:05:05    Alyssa

Yeah, that's fascinating. So when you look back now with your little girl, what would you have done differently? If you have this picky eater, I'm gonna put that label out there. I think it's a label that a lot of folks connect with right now. If you were in that space now, what would you do differently? 

00:05:22    Deborah

Well it's about what I didn't see. It's it's about what I had missed in that children are most receptive to their caretakers through relationship. I was dealing with a child who had a heightened sensitivity around tactile, around taste, around smell. I didn't know that. I had a sense of it but I wasn't understanding fully how it was impacting feeding and eating. And I would have caught myself a lot sooner that I realized I was in trouble. The more I was pushing, the more she was resisting. And I kept on that for far too long. I should have given up a lot sooner and just said, listen, what's going on here? And I would have slowed things down a little bit. I would have understood that she was at the age of autonomy where she needed to play a little bit with her food, smell, you know, watch me cook, watch other people eat, watch where the food was grown from. And just to slow it down and not add that pressure and keep relationship at the forefront, I think that would have been tremendous in terms of helping our relationship and helping her make her more receptive to trying stuff over time. We did get there, but wow did I ever stumble. 

00:06:30    Alyssa

Yeah, what is she, you know, now as an older child? Have you asked her kind of reflections or her input on food and her eating experience now? Are the sensitivities still present? How does it show up for her now? 

00:06:46    Deborah

Yeah, well she's 18 now and she's certainly found her way. Again, the age of autonomy hit, you know, in around adolescence and she was given lots of room to try things. I accommodated to her tastes and also kept pushing the envelope where I could. So when we had, you know, butter chicken, which was everybody's favorite, I would make sure she had edamames and other protein sources and iron sources because she really found it very difficult to eat meat. And so we did stop pushing and I just changed what I was doing. And so she felt much more comfort at the table when she wasn't pushed. She said when people, especially, you know, extended family members would say things about her eating that. As a parent I had already transitioned but when other people started to say that it was very difficult for me and she still says to this day it was very difficult for her. It's very she feels very shamed like there's something wrong with her and so as much as I would try to say hey listen this is just who she is not everybody needs to eat meat like vegetarians are just fine too and vegans like just back off a little bit. They were less reticent to buy into that. So she remembers that. When she went off to university, what was really interesting though is we took the alarm out of eating and so we just could have good meals together. She still was slow to warm up to things. She still takes her time to taste things. We enjoy the food that we're gonna enjoy. I still serve it. I make sure she's taken care of. But you can see this drew her into trying things. So she'd watch her sister eating butter chicken and your sister say you can try so if you want it's really good Maddie. She grew to trust me a lot. Maddie I'm not sure if you'd like this one because this has a lot of the spice but you know give it a smell see what you think and so she started to try things of her own accord and in university she just said mom I got to eat something more than you know chicken fingers and stuff so she pushed herself out there and she's got an incredible repertoire now of things that she eats but she had to feel that she wanted to do that that she wasn't pushed, that she was ready, that she got to watch, she got to listen, she got to learn, and food is associated with pleasure and not with shame, and that was really key. 

00:08:58    Alyssa

Yeah, I love this so much. So, as a mom to a three -and -a -half -year -old who is sensory sensitive, so he also has tactile sensitivities, taste, smell, and that all comes up with food. He's also interceptive sensitive, so if he has to go poop, he has a real hard time sitting and eating or just eating in general, even if he's not sitting. And he is sound sensitive. So there's the other day we had somebody over for dinner and just one additional person at our dinner table and he was like, why is it so loud in here? And it is then hard for him to eat, right. And I feel like when I'm diving in to all different spaces around food, it's something that's not included is what this looks like for sensory sensitive humans and that there isn't a one size fits all. And that for us, it really also was like pulling back while holding boundaries of like what he would love to go choose, like if he wanted an ice cream sandwich the other day, 10 minutes before dinner, and I said no. And he was real bummed about that. And so there's still for us boundaries around it, but there's always safe foods and safe options that like if we have a bunch of people that are going to be around, or we're at my parents' house and it's busy and loud, I'm one of five kids, he doesn't have to eat at the table with us. 

00:10:26    Deborah

Yeah, beautiful. 

00:10:26    Alyssa

And there's a lot of feelings, adult feelings about that, like him not being at the table. For folks who aren't sensory sensitive, mealtimes can be a time to connect. And for him, it's actually not a great time for him to connect. It's often a time where his sensory systems are being drained and pulled from. And so adding a bunch of sound to that is harder for him. So I so appreciate this perspective and I'm excited to continue to dive into the conversation. That's something I feel like is really missing. 

00:10:56    Deborah

Yeah, thank you for that, Alyssa. And I love everything you're saying in terms of you taking the lead. The decision -making, the perception you have, the insight you have to your son, there are certain prescriptions, almost sacred, that we're not allowed to play around with. And I found that really challenging in the research. I'm like, I don't agree with all of this, but how do I find my way through the research? Because I've seen people who sat at family meals and didn't feel safe, and it was a site of great wounding. You know, if there's alcoholism or abuse in the family, this is the most wounding place of all. So should we still have the same prescription? Everybody needs to eat together. What is togetherness? Togetherness is about attachment, not sitting beside each other. So how do you help your son feel connected when he's around food in this particular context? I come from a family of five kids, So I absolutely know what it's like when you have everybody there. And who's to say if you don't go off with him and you are together with him, that that isn't connection. So I think when I talk to parents, one of the biggest things that I hear from them, the feedback I hear about this work and the book Nourished is they feel a sense of relief. 

00:12:02    Alyssa

Yeah, I feel that of like, OK, we don't have to. I often think that there's this-- there's more discussion around neurodivergence than we have had. And I still think there's this idea of we can put certain accommodations in place to help kids fit into a neurotypical world. And I think we gotta shift that goal of like, if our goal is they have to be able to sit down at the table and eat these foods and socialize and be regulated throughout that, I think it's the wrong goal. I think then we're looking at a one size fits all approach for kids. And I think the relief for me in this messaging comes from the space of, oh, my child gets to be who he is in this world and not try to fit into the world that frankly for me is quite comfortable. I don't have the same sensitivities he has. And I love to sit and engage and chat. And it fills my cup. My daughter's the same way. She is like, are people hanging out without me? Like, I want to be a part of that. And he's like, can I leave the hang please? And so looking at the two of them, it would not make sense for us to have that same approach for the two. And I love the message that attachment and attunement being connected might look different for each of them. 

00:13:31    Deborah

And I think underlying all of that and just to put a fine point in it, at the end of the day, what matters the most here, and I found this in the research, is that I trust parents to have the insight to know what their kids need. I don't think we need to tell parents how to love their children. I think parents do love their children. I think they want to care for their children in the best way they can. And when we say things and give prescriptions, like this is what you need to do in a temper tantrum, this is what you need to do around the table, this is what you need to do, what you are essentially saying to the parent is that you can't figure this out and you need to follow my direction. Now of course culture has passed on wonderful wisdom, that being together around food and trying to gather is important. And I think that is true. However, let's give our parents some room, some permission, some faith, to figure out what that looks like. Your three -and -a -half son finds a table full of ten people, noisy, eating, sights, sounds, smells of food-- too much. That isn't to say at five he won't. It isn't to say at six he needs to sit on your lap and and be part of that. It doesn't mean that you won't figure that out. What it means is that we won't be able to figure that out for you but you will with your son as you lead him to the table to the people that you want him to be connected to. So prescriptions don't help us but faith in parents to take the lead. Parents must take the lead in a kind caring way and to be firm right? No ice cream before dinner and people to do all that. That's what I found underneath the research, most of all. We need our strong caretakers. 

00:15:08    Alyssa

When you look back when your daughter was younger, what were you afraid of when you were in the approach prior? Like, we're going to get her to eat this meat or whatever. What were you afraid of? 

00:15:18    Deborah

So I was stuck in a behavioral approach, which is really the competing approach to an attachment developmental approach, which is ironic because everything I did was developmentally relationship, except for food. And then I realized when I was talking to my colleagues and people within the Neufeld Institute, we were kind of all in the same place. I realized this is the one area where attachment developmental lens hasn't infiltrated is in food. We do it so often. It was mind -blowing. So what was driving me? Outcomes focused on the outcome. What happens if she doesn't eat more than cheese and bread? What happens if she isn't eating her nutrition? Am I failing as a parent? I'm failing her. I'm not doing my job. I'm not being responsible. I'm not taking care of her. She's going to get sick. You know, the things you don't say but are unconscious is she's going to get sick and die. Like that's where we are with parents. This is like a life -and -death decision in our heads. So there was tons of alarm driving me, which was then driving and pushing her, which of course tremendously backfired. 

00:16:14    Alyssa

How did you navigate those alarms as you moved into the attachment and connection of those same fears that are probably still present? What did you do with those? 

00:16:23    Deborah

This is a beautiful question, not one that many have picked up on. What changed me was I grew more alarmed about the relationship and inside of me I knew that if I lost the relationship, I lost everything. When I saw that I had created an attachment issue, my alarm bells went through the roof. Because as I write in Nourished chapter 3, what Maslow got wrong is that food is not our most essential need for survival. Attachment is. So when I saw what I had done, my alarm around attachment was bigger than my alarm around food and that's what drove me to figure it out. 

00:17:00    Alyssa

Yeah. Did you still experience any of those fears of like, okay, as our attachment strengthened and you're moving back into a space where you feel connected around food, did those parts come up that were nervous about her nutrition or what this would mean for her? 

00:17:21    Deborah

Actually, it subdued. The more I took the lead, the more confident I grew in being able to feed her and that it was my expectations that needed to change. I think to try everything. We had a long life to do that. It's okay. We could go slower. When I felt myself giving time, like, we could go slower. She doesn't have to eat broccoli now. It is a strong taste. Just relax. Maybe we should just eat broccoli. Maybe we should just enjoy it. Maybe she should smell it. Maybe we'll grow some broccoli in the garden. We did all of those things and she loved broccoli She loves broccoli, but she wasn't forced coerced. Yeah, she wouldn't but so the more that I felt confident that I was taking the lead, the more I changed my expectations the more my alarm came down. There it is a leap of faith too because but the leap of faith is not so great I do the research on attachment. So I knew that attachment and relationship would bear the fruit, you know mine would bear the fruit. I knew it would deliver us to a better relationship around food, but it was really my big emotion of alarm that was in the way. 

00:18:22    Alyssa

Yeah, I think we do this when we're kind of forced into it in spaces. I'm thinking of recently, my three -year -old Sage fell off the top of the couch and fell and bit his lip and had like a hole in his lip. We went to the urgent care and he got his first stitches. And in the whole process, All the normal parts of our morning or things that we tend to put attention on were kind of out the window All that mattered was me maintaining our relationship making sure he feels safe throughout this whole process and knowing that we were gonna do some hard things and I was gonna be right there with him and I was looking back on it later that day when I had the like cortisol dump of like ooof and kind of came down from it a couple things that I had reflected back on, 1.  he ended up taking a nap and falling asleep in my arms that afternoon for the first time since I could remember and it was so lovely just to like hold his little sleeping body and 2. when he was laying there and he was scared and he's laying and looking up. There was a nurse and a doctor there and they're gonna be doing stitches and it's in his lips. It's in his face right the whole shebang and he looked me in the face and I just let him know I'm gonna be here, you're safe, I'm gonna keep you safe and it's okay to be scared. And he like locked eyes with me and it's like hard to I guess convey the feeling but I felt his safety. I could tell that he knew I would keep him safe and that he could be scared and not have to run away from getting the stitches because I would keep him safe. And how, when I looked back on that day, like that's what stuck with me. I was like, gosh, I'm so grateful for our attachment relationship today in those days. And I think sometimes we're like pushed into these moments where like, what really matters? And through him falling off the couch and bleeding all over our house, what really mattered at the end of the day was that we were connected and he felt safe with me. And I think sometimes we can get caught up in all these, like what we're supposed to be doing, the shoulds of life. And we get shook into these moments, like you with your daughter and the food, of actually what really matters is that we're connected and we have a secure attachment. And if she eats broccoli never, that's fine. What really matters is this relationship. And I think sometimes it takes like getting to a point where things are shook and we have that perspective. And really cool to potentially get some of that perspective outside of those big moments. 

00:21:06    Deborah

Yeah. Oh, I love everything you're saying. What you're basically saying is that you're his answer. You're his answer to safety, you're his answer to life, you're his answer to directions and orienting him through strange unknown things that he has to go through, the pain and discomfort he might experience in life. He puts his faith and his trust in you and he will follow you because of that, because of that relationship. And so, you know, how do we take care of our kids? Through connection, the best way possible. And can you tell someone how to do that? No, how you do it with your son and that unique insight and perspective you have on who he is and what he needs, being able to look at him and seeing things in him that no nurse or doctor could pick up in that moment is because we are, attachment binds us together and becomes a super glue and helps us form these beautiful, personal, exclusive relationships that not only help a child in this life, but when we're gone, help them when we're gone, too. They can hold on to us for the long term. 

00:22:09    Alyssa

Yeah. Oh, I love that. How do you support folks in, you know, you were so aware of your daughter's sensory profile for sensitivities, and I have had the great privilege of getting to work alongside OTs for a lot of my career, and so I have lived and breathed the eight sensory systems in a way that most people don't get to do at work, and that's something that I find when we teach on the nervous system and the eight sensory systems, there's so many ahas for folks who are like, oh, that's what's happening here. They're sensitive to this. That makes sense. And I think it can breed compassion in those situations where instead of the picky eating, you see, oh, this is hard for them. This is hard for their nervous system to navigate. How do you teach parents or folks or caregivers how to tune into those things if that feels new? 

00:23:13    Deborah

Well, yeah, you certainly would have an advantage if you knew the eight sensory systems. Absolutely. Pay attention a little bit. I would also suggest that we all have the capacity to pay attention, and it actually starts with that. What I also paid attention to was my own frustration. This wasn't working. Thankfully, that was the biggest thing that I paid attention to, because nothing else really opened the door. Was I'm so frustrated, I need to make sense of this differently. And so I would say if you are feeling something isn't working, you're upset by something, you're alarmed by something, your emotions aren't a problem. They're trying to help give you information about something that's happening between you and your child. Please don't jump to that place that you're a bad parent. You're screwing it up. Your child at the age of three, it's forget about it. You've ruined this child. I think so many parents harbor these beliefs and it's completely incorrect. So please just listen to the emotions inside of you that are coming up and try to put some words to it. What are the questions that you have? What are the things that you're seeing that that don't make sense to you? And follow it. Just pull on it like a thread. You know, if you pull on any thread and it's attached to everything, the thread goes somewhere. So just tug on that thread and let what's happening between you inform you. Talk to some people, if that helps, that will help you figure out yourself and your child and what's happening between you. Don't jump to quick fixes. Don't jump to someone who promises you these fancy solutions if you only did this 10 -step process. They don't know your child and they don't know what's going on for you. But just stop, reflect, pay attention, and try some things. And be prepared that what you try might not always work. but it's okay, just keep at it, just don't give up. 

00:25:07    Alyssa

Yeah, I think that that is something that can feel like a challenge, just the reflective practice piece. When Sage was a newborn, the last hour of the day of his day was my time. So I would, my husband would come and tap in, I would nurse him and then I'd pass him off to Zach and Zach would get him the rest of the way ready for bed and bounce him in his arms, rock him to sleep and beyond for that last hour. And I could shower, I could do something for me. And I remember getting out of the shower. And I am like, in a robe, I get out of feeling so like, yay, self care, good recharged. And in comes Zach, like sweating, and Sage is crying. And he's like trying to, he's like, I've tried everything. I can't figure it out. And I was like, okay. And so I just took him and tried a bunch of things and eventually he calmed. And afterwards, Zach was like, how did you know what he needed? And I was like, oh, I didn't. I was just gonna try things and see how he responded to them. And I think this idea of our kids as communicators, especially before they have verbal communication, can be hard to wrap our head around. But when we can tune in to them and not be afraid that it won't work, right? Like I tried to feed him and he was like, no, and I was like, okay, you're not hungry. And so just trying different things and seeing how do they respond, knowing at some point I'm going to find the need that's driving the behavior. And it's okay to kind of fail, if you will, along the way. I think it starts with the belief that all behavior is communication of a need, though. 

00:26:56    Deborah

Yes. 

00:26:58    Alyssa

And I think that's something that still can feel tough for folks. 

00:27:02    Deborah

I think so and I think that seeing our own, what we label as negative emotions today, as communication for ourselves, I think for a long time as a parent I thought, oh my goodness, if I have any frustration I must be a bad parent. I don't know why I would have equated, I do know why I equated the two together, but it just seems so ridiculous to say that now. course you're going to be frustrated. It doesn't mean you don't love your child, you don't want to take care of your child, but my goodness, sometimes things are difficult and we do have emotions that come up inside of us. Do we sacrifice? Do we have consideration? Yes, but it's okay still to be frustrated. So I think listening to your own emotions that are there too and giving yourself permission and not to be so judgy with yourself and to be curious and everything you said, it's beautiful. Exactly. Yeah, I didn't know. I just tried. I didn't know. I just tried, and in today's world of social media I don't hear that message to parents. I hear do this do this do this do this. No, it doesn't work like that 

00:28:06    Alyssa

Yeah, 

00:28:08    Deborah

And you and won't you not feel despondent when it doesn't work for you when you've tried what someone told you so clearly and explicitly to do? You feel more despondent you feel more despair, but they don't know you, they don't know your child. You've got to listen to inside of yourself. And yes, take the help and perspectives when it makes sense to you to do so. 

00:28:29    Alyssa

Yeah. It's not one size fits all. No. In my book that I wrote with my colleague, Lauren Stauble, Tiny Humans, Big Emotions, it is one thing that I think is sometimes frustrating for folks is I'm not going to give you a script and we're not going to say do this and it'll work for this kid. What we're going to do is help you tune into the nervous system and really help you tune in to yourself. And so, I mean, our approach is five components and one is about the kids and the other four are about us. And it's not an accident. 

00:29:00    Deborah

Sounds about right

00:29:00    Alyssa

I mean, that's right. And often, especially on social media, we'll get requests for like, well, what do I say in that moment or what do I do? And it's really easy from a social media perspective to give a script, right? Like that's what does well in terms of people being like, Okay. Yes. Now I feel like I have this script but what's real is that you're gonna use that script and it's not going to be your authentic voice and it's not going to be you actually tuned into that kid and you aren't gonna get the quote "results". You're not gonna get connection if it's not really you present there. And then I think it can feel like oh, this isn't working because what we want from working is really I think connection and we can't connect if we're not using our own voice here. 

00:29:51    Deborah

Exactly, nor can you grow more confident, you know, grow confident in your own voice when you're boring other people's voices. Now, is it true that we're gonna figure this out on our own? No, it's not. But like you say, you know, the gentle and sage advice to pay attention to one's emotions, it's okay to try. These emotions are not mistakes, they're just trying to inform us. And just that, you know, gentle hand. That was, I think, part of parenting generations. Well, it wasn't always gentle, but the wisdom, the cultural wisdom, and how we raised our children, knowledge was passed on between generations for good and for bad. And we've inherited parenting practices from largely a generation that it did not work. It was authoritarian, it was abusive, it was wounding, and it decimated our relationships. And so we have a brave new generation of parents who want to do something different, but are really struggling to know what that looks like. So I get that there's going to be confusion. And I would say, listen to those emotions inside of you. It's frustrating. You'll have some conflict. Reach out. Talk it through. Walk it through. Whatever it is. But there's something there that inside of you, when you figure out, and for your child, when you figure out, you're going to feel like you are the answer and you grow more confident. Because I could tell you, having a three -year -old, having a seven -year -old, having a 10 or a 13 -year -old, now having 18 and 20 -year -olds, I can see through time how I needed to figure out the answer to the three -year -old picky eating so I can be the answer to all of the other things that would come, you know, breakups and disappointments in school and pandemics that were down the road that I had no clue about, that I had to find that confidence inside of me so I could lead all the way through, not just through the picky eating, and that's the big perspective that I'm grateful for now that I didn't have when I had little kids, but I can see it now. 

00:31:53    Alyssa

I appreciate that. Yeah, we, I'm writing a book right now for the kindergarten to fifth grade range, and I had a parent recently who knows I'm writing it who was like, her daughter's been in conflict with kids at school, and she was like, what do I do? How do I navigate this? And from a place of wanting to rescue her daughter from the hard things she's experiencing, And I was like, well, what would it look like for your daughter to feel left out, to feel embarrassed, to not be included? What does that look like for you? And how could you be the safe space for her to land? Not stop her from experiencing those things, not save her from it, not make her be included. And it was that internal, oh, that is so hard to do. Because we know how that feels. We've experienced it and we want to rescue them from it. And how much more powerful it is to be their safe space and their landing zone through the hard. It's so hard to do. Cheers to doing it. 

00:33:02    Deborah

And you know, what we talk a lot about, and I'm grateful that we are, is we talk a lot more about connection. We talk a lot more about emotion. And the area that I find myself working more and more in these days, and probably have to spend my time now in, is if you understand that attachment is the most primary need, then what happens? What is our greatest threat? What is the greatest challenge posed to human beings? Well, it's separation. Separation from the things, people that we are attached to. And what does separation look like for a young child? What does it look like for us? How are our attachments going awry in, you know, we've never spent so much time paying attention to relationships in the sense of knowing it's important and the research and trying to promote it. But what is missing? What has happened? And why are we facing unprecedented separation in our relationship with our children? And it's not as simple as saying, oh, you know, mothers, we're no longer in the home and back to work. No, that's a knee -jerk reaction. That's not the sophisticated sort of lens we need to understand. And I work full -time, you know, this is parents have to work for pleasure, for desire, for survival. And so it's not so simple to say it's just that's the source of separation. Nighttime is a sense of separation. Having battles with my daughter around food created a separation problem. And so we see a rise in anxiety, attention issues, depression, suicide across the board, eating disorders across the board since COVID have increased 40%, but we were in trouble before then. And so what we're facing and what we have to get our heads to, and I think this is probably where I have to do my work from now on a little bit more, is just what's the impact of separation, our emotional health, our well -being, our physical health, and our well -being. Because this is really evident to me that we're struggling from the countries that I've been in and presenting to, North America, Australia, New Zealand, my counterparts around the world, we're struggling with the unprecedented levels of separation. 

00:35:14    Alyssa

Deb, I'm gonna have to have you back to talk about that because I think it's so crucial and this is the first time that I haven't heard it blamed on women going to work, and thank God, because we shoulder enough blame for things over here as working women and just women in general, that I wholeheartedly agree. When we were looking for childcare for my little guy, and I was checking out spaces, we made like a list of criteria, like what was it that we were looking for? And the number one thing we were looking for was attachment relationships. So when I said I want to come tour the school, I want to tour the school while kids are there and I can observe a classroom and see what do those relationships look like from a child to a teacher and be able to see those relationships play out in real time between children and teachers and see drop -offs and see pickups and see like how comfortable do these kids feel in the relationship they have with their teachers. Because that, for me, was the most important thing, that I would leave my child with somebody who becomes a part of our village, who's an extension of our village, and that it's a space where they also feel safe. 

00:36:41    Deborah

Yeah, beautifully said. That was exactly the same criteria I had as well. And it was interesting because when I was doing like the warm -up and the gradual entry. We had, it was sort of like a shared daycare sort of arrangement. So the lady who was doing the caretaking, I was there and she had a couple of other children that she had known for quite a while. And my daughter was there and I was there with her and she was just getting her bearings. But I remember one of the little girls who was three or four was just burst into tears at around lunchtime and I miss my mommy and she's crying and I miss my mommy and I miss my mommy. And then the caretaker moved into her. Her name was Faye. She moved into the little girl. She scooped her up and said, I know sweetie, I know you're missing your mommy. She's thinking about you now too. You're gonna see her later. I'll take care of you, but it's okay to miss her. And she just, the little girl cried and cried and cried. And I remember Faye looking over at me and she didn't say anything, but there was a sense of, oh my goodness, what is this, what am I going to think about this child crying in her care and missing her mother as if she wasn't enough. And it was at that point that I thought if that girl, if you know she could cry with Faye, then she was the caretaker I needed because their right was trust. And if Faye wasn't trying to say it's not okay to miss your mama, she wasn't, she was quite confident that she was the answer to that. She was quite confident that mama was coming back and she was able to relay that to the child but she had her heart and she was a place of safety and so I entrusted my daughter into her care for that reason. And so, you know, so many times I think, we think, oh, if the child's not happy, if they're upset or sad, there's something wrong in the relationship. But actually the expression of emotion, well, you know, you wrote a book about it, the expression of emotion requires safety. And so, what if we chose our daycare and our preschool and our arrangements based on this idea of, do they have our child's heart? Does our children feel safe enough to express what's within it? And can that that caretaker take care of them. I think this would be a beautiful way to go forward. And it's not like women have never worked. My goodness, are you kidding me? 

00:38:54    Alyssa

Yeah. And I think in order to have that dream world that I'm right there dreaming about with you, A, we need enough childcare that there is choice, and B, we need to support early childhood educators with the foundations in attachment so that they can move into that space and be attachment caregivers. And I don't think, I mean, I have a master's in early ed and we learned a lot about behavior management and classroom management and not a whole lot about attachment relationships. And I think there's a huge disservice there. 

00:39:31    Deborah

I would agree completely. And I would also say they also need to be recognized for the work they do. They aren't paid enough, they are not acknowledged enough. If we actually saw children as our gift and as the most sacred thing to take care of and to raise, to ensure our own longevity and the health of our planet, we would value them more and we would put every resource that we could into this. But they don't. They do not get this. And child care is seen as a service and they are not acknowledged for the relational work that they do. They are incredible to step up and to take care of other people's children. And so how do we support them to be the answers to our children is the answer that we need. 

00:40:12    Alyssa

Couldn't agree more, Deb. Thank you, and I'm excited for you to continue to dive into that work and come back and have some more conversations with me. Deb, where can folks learn more about your work, connect to your resources, things like that? 

00:40:26    Deborah

I guess my website's probably the best among the social media platforms that you typically would find people on Instagram, Facebook, and Substack. My website macnamara.ca. 

00:40:38    Alyssa

Great. We'll link that as well. Thank you so much for being here and for doing this important work. 

00:40:44    Deborah

Thank you so much for having me. I felt like minds, so it was wonderful to talk to you. Thank you. 

00:40:51    Alyssa

And Rach and I will be right back after this ad break. 

[Music]

00:40:58    Alyssa

We forgot to tell the moose story. 

00:41:00    Rachel

I know, I was thinking that. 

00:41:02    Alyssa

You got a moose! 

00:41:04    Rachel

I got a moose!

00:41:04    Alyssa

Okay, walk us through the whole shebang. So you're going in, you're gonna be there for a week in the middle of nowhere Maine. 

00:41:12    Rachel

Literally the middle of nowhere. Like I had, I was having some anxiety about like, there's no like help. Like if your kid chokes or somebody gets really hurt, you're looking at either waiting for three hours or driving three hours to the nearest like medical facility. So I was a little stressed bringing the kids up there and like there was some feedback from family members who also were wondering if it was a good idea to bring the kids but we brought them so you're going up for a week. So you went up Sunday. We left Sunday morning. It takes about five hours to get up there. So we get settled, the hunt opens Monday morning, and we unpack all of our stuff, get the kids set up, whatever. So we put the kids to bed, we go to bed early, because we're going to be up early. So in the middle of the night, Sunday night, Nora, my 9 -year -old, wakes me up, and so she doesn't feel well, and proceeds to vomit for the next several hours. So, legal hunting time starts at 6:20 a.m. because it's based on when the sun rises. So at 5 Cody gets up and like starts making coffee and like starts the truck and I'm still like Nora and I are laying on beds next to each other with the trash can in between the beds and like she's occasionally sitting up to vomit and I'm you know she's like says my name before it's gonna happen aka help me so I like wake up rub her back whatever so we're doing this whole thing we've been doing this for hours now. Cody is so laser focused on the timing of getting up the door that at 530 when he's like all right time to get the truck.

00:43:05    Alyssa

I'm like also this is like this is who he is even outside of hunting. Like we're leaving Beach Week and he is up he has he's cleaning the house he's like let's go we're getting out of here we're leaving vacation to go home and can't do it fast enough. Like once he knows that it there's a thing that's gonna happen he's like let's go get out the door.

00:43:28    Rachel

Like it's a joke in our friend group they call it pulling a Lounder where you just like disappear like you say like alright it's getting to be time to go and then like our friend turned around and we're gone. Right so there have been times where Cody has packed up our whole lives at the beach and I'm still in the water, and he's in the water, and he's in the car. 

00:43:49    Alyssa

Going to the truck, going to the truck. 

00:43:51    Rachel

And I'm literally swimming. Like, what are you doing? So anyway, it's 5:30, he's like, 

00:43:57    Alyssa

Got hot plans, Cody? You got something to do here that I don't know about? 

00:44:01    Rachel

Going home to do laundry and entertain kids at home? Woo, can't wait. So it's 5:30, and he's like, all right, we gotta get in the truck. And I'm like, okay. The last time she vomited was about 10 minutes ago, when he goes, what? And this is a small house and he's been getting ready next to Nora and I. Like the kitchen's right here where Cody's getting ready and Nora and I are like right next to him.

00:44:25    Alyssa

Oblivious

00:44:26    Rachel

Completely oblivious. He's like, what? She's still throwing up? Like, yeah. So I'm like, okay, here's what we'll do. I'll sit in the back of the truck with Nora. I'll take care of her. Evan, our friend who was on this hunt with us to support us, Evan can sit in the front. Cody was my sub -permittee, which means legally he can shoot. So I'm like, you shoot a moose if we find one. Nora needs me. So Evan is standing, all of us adults are standing together having this conversation and Cody's like, no, you've worked so hard to prepare for this. And Evan's like, I can handle a puking kid. Like, I'll sit in the back with Nora and Abel. I'll support her if she throws up. And you, 

00:45:06    Alyssa

Does Evan have kids? 

00:45:07    Rachel

No, but he's about to in December. Oh, sweet. But he's just like a good human, right? He's like one of Cody's really, really good friends. And over the course of them being friends, Like he bent over backwards for us when I had cancer. He's just the kind of friend who like you give him a call. Just yesterday we called him dealing with like a hunting thing. And he answers his phone. He's like, yes to Cody and Cody's like, I need help. And Evan's like, all right, what's up? Like they just, it's that kind of friendship. 

00:45:35    Alyssa

Yeah, I love it. 

00:45:36    Rachel

So I am tired, obviously, except I'm up with a puking kid and I was having anxiety in the night because I'm like, if this is a virus, we're all going to get it. We're up here in the middle of nowhere. Like this sucks. 

00:45:48    Alyssa

Why did they bring my kids up here? 

00:45:50    Rachel

Yeah like wow I just was like 

00:45:52    Alyssa

We're gonna be here for a week

00:45:54    Rachel

-of puking that's what I was thinking right? I was like all right great we're in the middle of nowhere and everybody's gonna start puking. So I am really tired so get my shoes on really quick and get in the truck and you leave the driveway at like 5:40 but you're just driving on to what feels like more driveways like my kids just thought it was a permanent driveway because it's all dirt road up there so Abel was like where does this driveway go. I'm like, well, this driveway goes three hours to Greenville. Um, so, okay, we're getting towards hunting time. It's like 6:20, but it's still pretty dark. Cody's taking us to where he thinks we're going to find a moose because he's been up there scouting earlier in the year. And the first moose we see is a cow, which I couldn't shoot a cow and she's alone, which means that rut is over, which means that the male moose, which are called bulls are not as active anymore. So Cody immediately is discouraged. She's like, well, that cow's alone, rut's over, we're not gonna find a moose. And I'm like, okay. I think the stress of Nora being sick manifested in this very all or nothing, like, well, if my first place didn't work out, then forget it, throw it away. 

00:47:05    Alyssa

Sure. 

00:47:06    Rachel

So Evan's like, all right, well, we're only 10 minutes into legal hunting time, so we have a week. So maybe we'll just stick with it a little bit longer. 

00:47:17    Alyssa

Thank goodness for Evan. 

00:47:19    Rachel

Luckily Nora was sleeping. She wasn't continuing to vomit. So anyway, another, we drive around and around like 7:30 we see two bull moose. So we're in the truck. 

00:47:35    Alyssa

I think it's moosen, 

00:47:37    Rachel

Just moose. We're in the truck and Cody is now on full tilt. Um, so he's gripping the steering wheel and his knuckles are white and he's leaning so far forward that like the brim of his ball cap is gonna like hit the windshield. And you know, he looks through his binoculars, it's two bull moose, it's a really good spot, they're right on the road, it's like an ideal situation. So Evan's like, we're like 400 yards from the moose, Evan's like, all right, get out and walk. Don't, don't drive anywhere, get out and walk, Cody's like, you think so? And Evan's like, yes, get out. There's an outcropping. If you walk on the right side of the road, you'll be able to get much closer without them I'm seeing you. He's like, you think so? I'm like, all right, get out of the truck. Get out of the truck. I did have one moment of panic where I was like, tell me what to do. And he was like, load your gun. You know, cause I'm tired, I'm scared. I've never been this close to a big moose before.  I feel so much pressure to perform. So - 

00:48:41    Alyssa

Can I ask a clarifying question? 

00:48:44    Rachel

Yeah. 

00:48:44    Alyssa

So you have to shoot the moose, but because there's like a two person thing here, but I don't, I don't know the logistics. Can you break down what the rules are of this? 

00:48:57    Rachel

I also need to clarify, because Cody would want me to clarify, we did not load our firearms until we were outside of the vehicle. Anyway, moving on. So I got chosen for, in Maine, at the moose hunt is a lottery system. You put in for it and you're randomly chosen or not chosen. There are zones, they tell you where you can go, they tell you whether you can shoot antlered or not antlered. And then you get a sub -permittee and the sub -permittee can legally shoot with you. And I believe that a sub can also shoot like without the permittee shooting but the permittee Cody is supposed to be present. So I could have been like, I don't wanna shoot, I'm scared. And Cody could have been like, okay, I can do it. But that last part, I don't know for sure, but I feel like that's what I think I know. 

00:49:51    Alyssa

So what was your game plan? 

00:49:53    Rachel

I wanted to be the one who, okay. Our initial game plan was to shoot simultaneously. So we get all set up to shoot. 

00:50:02    Alyssa

And you just wouldn't know who actually killed the moose. 

00:50:05    Rachel

Right, and here's the thing. It's not like hunting smaller game where like if they run for a while after they're shot like it's really not a big deal you can track them they're not that hard to drag whatever like we are legit in the middle of nowhere and if a moose runs after you shoot it you're dealing with a 600 to 800 pound animal that then you have to somehow get back to your vehicle um that can be like all day and all night, no we did not want to do that. Um so the initial plan was we would shoot simultaneously. We're all set up to shoot. You know, some things happen. The moose are too close to each other. And if I shot and the bullet went through one and into another, double kill, illegal. Cody's worst nightmare. So there were moments, you know, where he's like, don't shoot, don't shoot, don't shoot. And I'm like, yep, finger's not on the trigger. Not going to be impulsive about this. We are good. And so finally, the moose that I want, one is bigger, one is smaller. I want the bigger one. The one that I want finally starts it's moving into the right position. So you don't wanna shoot them head on into their chest. You want them, it's called broadside, where they're sideways. Because you can get a much better shot and like a humane ethical kill is a big priority for Cody and I. So all of these factors are kind of swirling, right? Because we're like, we're about to take the life of an animal and we want to minimize harm. 

00:51:26    Alyssa

Yeah, sure. 

00:51:27    Rachel

So anyway, it finally starts to get into position. So Cody's like, okay, we're gonna shoot. So we shoot at the same time. Faulty ammo. Okay, neither gun goes off. We thought like oh our guns jammed. Later we found the bullets saw that the pin had struck the bullets and they had not fired. Faulty ammo. So we both shoot and I'm like my guns not working and he's like me neither! And  I'm like, what do we do? And he's like jack another shell so I do and it actually worked out really well because the way that the timing worked out Then the moose was really starting to walk and I aimed right behind the shoulder and I just like shot without-- in our, like, target shooting, I had taken a really long time to line up the shot, which, like, increased my anxiety. This was just, like, put it behind the shoulder where it was supposed to go, and I knew I was out of time, so I just, like, fired. So I fired without Cody. And immediately, the moose, like, buckled and started to, like, stumble, so I knew it was a good shot. And then Cody, like, made sure that it didn't suffer, shot it again. But it was my shot that, like, did it, which is way cooler. 

00:52:32    Alyssa

Rach, how badass do you feel? 

00:52:34    Rachel

Yeah. And my kids were watching. Like, it was, it was what I wanted. Like, my whole goal with this whole thing was to show my kids that, like, hunting and harvesting your own meat isn't just for, like, white Republican men, right? That was my whole, the whole reason I initially was like, I should do this. So I was so thankful. And like, Nora had woken up and was like, paying attention and was excited. Um, yeah, so it was great. 

00:53:01    Alyssa

Now you have a freezer full of meat for what, a year? 

00:53:05    Rachel

Probably more than that. It'll probably feed us for two years. Um, and I didn't think this would matter to me cause I wasn't in it for like the antlers, but my moose's antler spread was way bigger than the moose that Cody shot in 2021 and that just really made me happy. 

00:53:24    Alyssa

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. It's like, yeah, not only can I do this, I can actually I can do that better if that's a thing. Or I can get a bigger one. Yeah. 

00:53:35    Rachel

Yeah. And I like 

00:53:35    Alyssa

It's fine. I'm sure your moose is fine, Cody. I'm sure you did a fine job. 

00:53:39    Rachel

He was so happy. Like, he wasn't even jealous. 

00:53:41    Alyssa

I'm kidding. 

00:53:41    Rachel

He was just like, you're such a badass. But they were a little bit making fun of me because after I shot it, I realized I was wearing my Birkenstocks. 

00:53:50    Alyssa

Oh my god, yeah, hilarious. 

00:53:51    Rachel

Cause like after you shoot it you have to field dress it which means that you cut it and remove the guts. So I'm like I can't field, I can't help you guys field dress this like, I'm in sandals I'd been so tired after being up with Nora and I had slept in wool socks. So I just like slipped my Birks on like I would at home instead of thinking like oh I need to have boots on so was in my Birks and then we 

00:54:15    Alyssa

Really got yourself out of a bunch of work 

00:54:17    Rachel

I know I was like, oh shoot. I guess I have to go sit in the warm truck with the kids darn. But they were also making fun of me because after I shot it, Cody was like, all right, we need to take pictures. And I was like, all right, I'll be right back. I'm going to go put on some makeup. And he was like, what? 

00:54:31    Alyssa

Like, if I'm getting, I'm getting my glamour shot here with this moose, I'm going to need to look like I wasn't up all night with a puking child. 

00:54:40    Rachel

Exactly. I knew Cody was going to do, like, glamour shots. Like, this is his dream for his wife to harvest an animal like this. I'm like, I better be looking right in these pictures. These are going to be everywhere. 

00:54:52    Alyssa

Oh my god, it's so good. Rachel, you got the moose. Day one of the week. 

00:54:59    Rachel

Yeah, day one. 

00:55:00    Alyssa

Did no one continue to grow up? 

00:55:02    Rachel

No, so it wasn't a virus. It was a flare of her autoimmune stuff, which happens sometimes, and travel can trigger it because environmental allergens can trigger it. And she was pumped. She videotaped it on my phone. 

00:55:16    Alyssa

Oh my god, I didn't know that. Sweet. 

00:55:18    Rachel

Yeah, and then she had taken like a selfie video where she like makes up a song about we got a moose We got a moose. So she was like totally into it. Yeah, so Lounder. Yeah, so I did it and I feel really good and I don't think that I want to do it again anytime soon, because it's such a huge amount of work with small kids.

00:55:39    Alyssa

 Yeah, 

00:55:41    Rachel

Um, but in three years when we run out of meat, maybe I'll let Cody put me in again 

00:55:47    Alyssa

Solid. Oh my god, so hardcore. Proud of you, Rach. 

00:55:51    Rachel

Thanks. 

00:55:52    Alyssa

And so rad to not have to be anxious all week and wondering and just be like, yep, day one. Got it. Done. Let's move on. That's the thing, because it gets more and more depressing as the week goes on. It's not fun to just drive roads looking for a moose in the middle of nowhere. We were home by, we came home Tuesday, and we had, by Friday, Cody had gone back up and like brought the meat home. Like we were done, done, done. Like meat in the freezer, done by Friday. People were still hunting. 

00:56:22    Alyssa

So awesome. So awesome. 

00:56:25    Rachel

So grateful. 

00:56:26    Alyssa

So rad. Woo, and this week I get to come stay with you. That's right. Jazzed, we're gonna have a long weekend at your house. Sagey is stoked. Zach actually has to go to Orono for work on Friday. 

00:56:41    Rachel

Sorry, Zach, that suck. 

00:56:44    Alyssa

So we'll just be hanging with the kids, me, you, and the kids. Are your kids have half day Friday? 

00:56:51    Rachel

Yeah, my kids have school until one Friday and then Nora has a soccer party. So I'll probably be home at like, I think I'll go to pick up at one because Abel and then we'll probably be at school until three. 

00:57:03    Alyssa

Sweet. Rad, that's about, that's like Beaners second nap and actually a nice time for me because I do rest time as often as I can where they overlap. So Sagey has rest time and chills and Beaner's naps. And it's like the time of day where I just chill for a minute. Yeah. Also, Zach has been obsessed with the idea of us going to Gray Animal Farm. And I was like, okay, first of all, you're working all day Friday. We have some things we have to do on Saturday. I would like to see our family. And then we're leaving Sunday. So help me understand when you're planning to go to Gray Animal Farm. And second of all, I don't know if that's the bigs idea of a good time at this point. Like, yes, our three -year -old would really enjoy it and we can do that with him sometime. But then came to realize this has nothing to do with Sage and everything to do with the fact that Zach loved when we went to Gray Animal Farm. 

00:57:59    Rachel

What is he hoping to see?

00:57:59    Alyssa

And I, he just had a really good time. I'm not totally sure what he's looking for. He's brought it up so many times, like before this trip even and then with this trip he was like you know what we could go to Gray Animal Farm let's see if they want to go to Gray Animal Farm and finally I was like we'll probably go for a walk in the woods 

00:58:20    Rachel

I mean we can probably go to Gray Animal Farm but like it's not always as fun this time of year like it's cold.

00:58:27    Alyssa

 Yeah this is not the time to go 

00:58:31    Rachel

It's really fun in the summer 

00:58:34    Alyssa

Yeah, correct. That's when we went and he had a good time. 

00:58:40    Rachel

Sorry, Zach. It seems like we're going to be going in summer of 2025. 

00:58:45    Alyssa

See you there. Meet you at Gray Animal Farm. Oh my gosh, yeah, that's the thing. 

00:58:53    Rachel

Absolutely hilarious. 

00:58:56    Alyssa

But I'm super looking forward to just like my favorite time is when the kids are in bed and we get to like just hang out as adults like play games and laugh and yeah Zach is like his weirdest self around his college friends and you guys and I love his weirdness. 

00:59:16    Rachel

Yeah it's gonna be super fun. My kids might need melatonin yeah they're just gonna be like yeah and you know Nora like social butterfly for life. 

00:59:26    Alyssa

Totally Beaners,

00:59:28    Rachel

Yeah she loves a hang. Loves it. 

00:59:32    Alyssa

Yep. 

00:59:32    Rachel

I was telling my sister the other night, we put her to bed and she came out like literally 30 seconds later and was like, I can't fall asleep. We're like, well, you haven't even like laid in your bed yet. So I also can't fall asleep when I'm standing up. 

00:59:46    Alyssa

Oh Nones. Oh, I love her. 

00:59:48    Rachel

So I'm anticipating some of that while you guys are here 

00:59:50    Alyssa

Yeah mm -hmm Beaners has been waking up at 5/ 5:30 since daylight savings so that's cool hoping that shakes out soon because

01:00:07    Rachel

That blows

01:00:07    Alyssa

 I'm not a fives person. I don't like to see the fives. I doesn't work well for me. 

01:00:18    Rachel

Five is night time. 

01:00:20    Alyssa

Mm -hmm. Correct. Yeah, that's still night. And then I get filled with some rage, so. 

01:00:27    Rachel

And it's the worst because their melatonin production drops off at like four. 

01:00:33    Alyssa

Mm -hmm. 

01:00:34    Rachel

I just feel so hopeless when my kids wake up at that time, so I'm just like, well, that's it. 

01:00:41    Alyssa

Same. Same. I'm like, this is just what it is. Here you go, Zach. Here's your daughter. Enjoy. Okay, who are we chatting about today? 

01:00:52    Rachel

Okay, we are chatting about Deb MacNamara. 

01:00:56    Alyssa

Yeah, did you have takeaways? You and I both have picky eater situations, sensory sensitivities, what came up for you? 

01:01:06    Rachel

Yeah, it just kind of resonated for me. Like, I realized that I carry a little bit of guilt about never having been able to nail down like a family dinner routine and there's so much online about like eating dinner as a family does X Y & Z and it's so important and good for kids and like I think that for a lot of families sitting down at the dinner table is like a connection point that they otherwise don't get and I do have other connection points with my kids and the dinner table is hard and not just for Abel. Nora has a really hard time sitting at the dinner table. So yeah, just a lot of that resonated for me of like, yeah, I don't have to make that a thing. For myself of like added pressure, evenings are already really difficult, just because the kids are tired from school. That like five to seven time of night is just, it feels like it's everybody's worst time, including my own. 

01:02:11    Alyssa

Sure. Not thriving at five, 

01:02:16    Rachel

Really not at all. Um, so I'd made a personal goal for us to sit down around the table and connect with each other once a week. 

01:02:26    Alyssa

Yeah. Love that. 

01:02:27    Rachel

And then the rest of the dinners, I mean, we eat, obviously I feed them, but it's oftentimes like they're eating at the Island while I'm standing up and maybe like prepping lunches for tomorrow or, you know, I'm not like sitting eating with them being like, tell me about your day. 

01:02:45    Alyssa

Yeah, no, correct. Yeah, that's honestly like, I mean, food is such a hard thing for Sagey anyway, from a sensory perspective. The sitting, the texture of food, the taste, the smells. What was I eating the other day where he was like, can you take that away? All I can smell. It wasn't even something that I even considered would be, it's not like it was like tuna or whatever, it was something, and I can't remember what it was now.

01:03:15    Rachel

Was it cottage cheese?

01:03:15    Alyssa

 It was so benign. No, it was, for me, so benign, I didn't even cross my mind that it would be a challenging smell for him. And he put in focus, because he was like, I keep smelling that, I keep ‘melling that, I keep ‘melling that. And I was like, yep. And then if we are, if anybody's over, if we're at a restaurant or whatever, just that noise addition and stimuli in general, it's such a hard time for him. And I used to try and focus a lot on like supporting his regulation so he could sit at the dinner table. And now I try to support his regulation so that he can eat food wherever that is. 

01:04:03    Rachel

Totally. Different goal. 

01:04:04    Alyssa

Because even the process of eating is hard for him. 

01:04:07    Rachel

Yeah. I think you recorded this one not that long after Abel went through that period of almost total food refusal. So listening to this, like, wow. It was a good reminder for me of like our approach and which like, duh, right? This is this is I eat, sleep and breathe this, but around food, it's especially triggering for me. So my regulation was not like, I was so stressed about that situation that I like put myself into an autoimmune flare. Like, so my mirror neurons were not telling him that he was safe to eat. My mirror neurons were panicking. And I think it's so, he did not start to eat more food until I got my own reaction under control. 

01:04:52    Alyssa

Yeah. 

01:04:53    Rachel

And it's so hard to do because I think food is so incredibly triggering because it's a biological need for children to eat. 

01:05:00    Alyssa

Exactly. And for me, it just affects our day. It affects his whole mood. It affects his access to regulation. It affects his capacity for life. And so I'm like, I need to get nourishing food in you so that you don't lose your S all day long. Because on a personal note, I don't want to do that. And I want to maintain a healthy relationship with food. And I find those two things hard. One thing I have also realized is that in times of like transition or there's a lot going on like what at the end of my pregnancy and beginning in my postpartum I would we would even do things like load his fork because every like task demand that we could decrease was helpful for him and I had to just remind myself in those seasons I'm like yep this is temporary he knows how to load his own fork he knows how to feed himself and right now nervous system is so fried that anything I can do to support him in this process is helpful for him. It won't be like this forever. 

01:06:08    Rachel

Yeah and that perspective I think is so key because so just to give some background information Abel got sick with like a cold and had post -nasal drip gagged on food a couple of times and then just was outright refusing solid food and I was like chill about it for probably the first like four or five days and then I started to get really wound up about it. And I was able to get food into him because I was making smoothies and protein shakes and whatever, so his nourishment was not an issue, but I felt so much pressure to be like, oh my gosh, I have to fix this right now, or he's never going to go back to eating solid food. It's like, no, he's going to go back to eating solid food. Feeding challenges are temporary for most children. 

01:06:54    Alyssa

It's so hard in that moment though. Yeah, and I'm just like, what? I can spiral so fast and like, am I doing this right? Am I creating a healthy relationship with food? Because if you spend any time on Instagram as a parent, you're like, here's what I need to do and all that stuff. And I have really, truly, honestly, having Mila was helpful in this because we didn't do anything different with her and she'll eat anything that comes her way and sit at the table forever because she just wants to hang. And I was like, oh, they're different humans. I didn't do anything right or wrong with Sage and his relationship to food. I'm not doing anything right or wrong with Mila and her relationship to food. They're just different humans. And so the way that they access food and look at food, like for Mila, food is so much about connection. She's like, oh, we're going to dinner. Like, we are hanging, yeah, pass that bread basket around, like, let's go, even if I'm not really hungry, I just want to be in the hang. And Sage literally only eats to stay alive. And if he never had to sit at a dinner table, he wouldn't. 

01:08:10    Rachel

It makes me think, like, even back to nursing, like, Nora nursed so easily and loved it. And it was like an emotional thing, too. And like Abel was all business and he was in it to stay alive. And outside of that, he didn't want it. 

01:08:25    Alyssa

Same with Sagey. He would nurse. We called him a power nurse or he would nurse power nurse and then peace. And he would often do one side at a time, not both. She will always do both. She's here to hang. She wants me to sing like head, shoulders, knees and toes while we're doing it. She's playing with my face. She's giving me high fives. She's like, we are hanging out. 

01:08:49    Rachel

So different 

01:08:50    Alyssa

So different, so different. I think it was in this episode where she talked about the like exposure to like broccoli or something like that and how she just realized like, yeah, I'm going to make my child their own meal, but we're still going to have our food. And if he sees broccoli on the table, cool, that's great, that's exposure and that's fine. And if he never eats broccoli, that's also fine. And this, it was just like a good reminder for me of like, it doesn't matter, doesn't matter. I think back to like my childhood and I grew up in a low income family. And so it was just like, whatever was cheapest to make, there were seven of us in my house. I have four brothers. We had to make a bunch of food for the least amount of money possible. And having like try it bites or food that was gonna be left over because we were just being exposed to it was not a thing like that's such a privilege to even discuss. And we had little Debbie snacks and all that jazz and like it wasn't these like whole balanced meals it was like how do we have enough food for these kids to keep trucking and feed them breakfast lunch and dinner. And I'm like, we're like, we've moved along the trajectory from where, how I was raised, Zach and I was talking to you about like water even. We didn't drink water. 

01:10:21    Rachel

The water bottles. Yeah. 

01:10:23    Alyssa

Like, I know. Oh my God, I did not. 

01:10:24    Rachel

My kids can't go anywhere without their water bottles. And like, I lived off of like Hi- C. And like, Capri Sun. And like, oh, Kool-Aid, yes. Or like, actually, so my parents, it was like a paycheck to paycheck situation. And we would get like the, you know how the like frozen cans of juice concentrate were like cheaper. So then you would like dissolve it in the pitcher. And then like we had the plastic like pitcher that stayed in the fridge. So like lots of that. Yeah, we didn't drink a lot of plain water. And also we definitely, I definitely didn't own a reusable water bottle. 

01:11:02    Alyssa

No, no, no. And I was just like, yeah, I lived off of like high fructose corn syrup juice and that was it because I wouldn't drink milk and we didn't have like plain water and just like things like that where I'm like, we're doing fine. I want to think so much less about all these logistics. I want to think so much less about them. I don't want them to occupy my brain space. 

01:11:28    Rachel

I think that's what like, when Nora was having all that autoimmune stuff where like all my brain space was dedicated to her food and expanding her tolerance and all this, that's not a good space for me to be in mentally, it can trigger a flare of my OCD. 

01:11:48    Alyssa

Sure. 

01:11:49    Rachel

That's really hard to get back under control. So I have worked really hard to, and also there's like cancer survivor stuff that comes up for me too, so I have to work really hard not to have too much of my brain energy going. I know I'm offering you nourishing foods. Also if you want to eat a cookie for a snack, that's fine. That's not a big deal. I used to be so like pushing veggies like oh my gosh I've got to get these kids eating veggies and veggies are great and also you can get a lot of the same nutrients from like fruit or other more palatable foods so just like letting go of that kind of stuff too or like when I have the bandwidth to like integrate the food experience more into just our our lifestyle like instead of being like hey here's a vegetable you need to eat, something that has worked for Abel, who really would just eat beige foods for the rest of his life. He planted kale in our garden this spring, and then I used the kale to make the Natural Nurturer, like green smoothie muffins.  And I was like, hey, buddy, like you, the green in these muffins is from the seed that you planted in the garden. His mind was blown. He loved the muffins. He wanted to talk about, like, the process of how that seed turned into a leaf. Just all of the things. And, like, that's what I want food to be for him. I want it to be like, hey, we did this thing together, and then we got to make this. Do you want to try it? Not like, you need to eat your kale before you get up from the dinner table. 

01:13:36    Alyssa

100%. I will say, I fall into the camp, and there are a lot of people that are going to hate this of, we won't do like desert-y foods unless you've had what we call our energy food. From like, if you eat nothing from dinner and then you're like, can I have M &Ms? Like, no. I won't. Really? Because it makes my life harder. Because then he's on a sugar high and a sugar crash and he's a disaster. If he has some of his energy food, like protein food from his plate, whatever, and we'll serve yes foods for him for that. I will never be like, the only protein food on your plate is something you've never had or don't like or whatever. And we'll just say like, yeah, if you have your energy food that's on your plate, and we also try to like, I'm not giving him a crazy amount of food and like, we'll do a reasonable amount here. He can always ask for more if he wants more, but and then if you want that, and you're asking for M &Ms or whatever it is, a cookie or whatnot. Sure. Go ahead. 

01:14:42    Rachel

Honestly, we have a similar, I'm a little bit more lax with Nora because she's a good example of intuitive eating that just is like natural for a child, which is hard for me to even wrap my head around as somebody who had an eating disorder, but she will literally say like, the sugar's making me feel yucky, like I need something with protein. Abel would never. So Abel is like, protein can suck it, and I will eat 10 Oreos. Literally at a birthday party one time, when he was three, there was Oreos, and he was like, mom, can I have some Oreos? I'm like, sure. He's like, can I have 10, please? Excuse me? So we talk a lot with Abel about quick energy foods and long energy foods, and how quick energy foods leave your body quickly, and sometimes they make you feel worse than you felt before you ate them. But if you pair them with a long energy food, then your body feels better and you have energy to play for longer. Now that doesn't mean that after that explanation, he's like, okay, mom, I'll eat my chicken. Yay, I can't wait. But it's like helping him understand there are ramifications for living off of sugar and I'm not going to allow him to do that. 

01:15:53    Alyssa

Yeah. It feels to me like a decision he can't, like Sage can't make on his own. 

01:16:00    Rachel

Yeah, it's like letting him go to bed on his own. 

01:16:02    Alyssa

Yeah, I'm like no you don't get to choose when that's gonna be or whatever like or how much screen time You're gonna watch or whatnot. Like that's my job as the adult is how that like decision feels for me and Yeah, I'm just we all said we talked about like what's inside the foods and what they do in our bodies and how we'll also talk about like yeah, this one doesn't have a lot of nutrients in it, and it's super fun and tasty, and there's space for that, right? That there's space for all of these. It's not good or bad foods. For us, it's just that if we're gonna have one of those foods that have a lot of sugar in them, we have to make sure we have energy food in our body so our body can handle it, and it doesn't feel out of control. And yeah, that's the language we use around it, and that has been helpful for us. And again, like staying within his safe foods. 

01:16:55    Rachel

Yeah, or always at least offering a safe food. Like I will do exposure to foods that I'm like, mm, Abel's probably not going to go for this as long as he has access to safe foods. What's been interesting too now that their school age is like for the first time they're getting exposed to the healthy versus unhealthy discussion, which isn't really like the language that we've used. So I've just been saying to them, like, just to help them kind of conceptualize this, sometimes foods that people will say are unhealthy, are healthy for your soul. They help you connect with others, it's the cake at the birthday party, or it's the cookies that we make together. And so they're healthy for your soul and your heart, but they're not as nourishing to your body. Just to help them understand that. 

01:17:41    Alyssa

I love that. 

01:17:42    Rachel

It's not just about eating foods that are, quote, good for you, because a lot of the higher sugar foods are like part of rituals that connect us to one another. And that's important. 

01:17:53    Alyssa

Yeah. A hundred percent. And it's like Beans, right? Like for her, food is connection related. And yeah, I love that. That's such a cool way to present it. I'm just about that one. This has me thinking this episode and this conversation had me thinking about the facts that we outline in our book that's coming next year, Big Kids, Bigger Feelings and really diving into, I mean, the F in fact, which is what we guide folks through as the foundation to doing any of this emotional development work, we have to start with the facts. And the F is food. And really looking at like, are they operating from a place of regulation? Are we supporting that nourishment? And that there are ways that we can do this that can still foster a healthy relationship with food and I think it's something that we have a hard time talking about these days because it's one of those like polarizing topics often that's like all or nothing and we got to be able to talk about things like this and have real conversations about it. So, jazzed, to get that out, that message is a part of this book, and it's a small part, but as a part of it that, like, food's connected to regulation, and it's connected to connection, and it's connected to our relationship with each other and those around us, and it plays a role. 

01:19:29    Rachel

Yeah. In so many things. 

01:19:31    Alyssa

Yeah. And we've got to be able to talk about it. Oh, thank you. Thanks for chatting with me about these things. You're always the person that I've been able to like from the jump be able to talk to about all food related things honestly all hard parenting things. But when I'm like, there's a polarizing topic I cannot turn to the internet for or whatever it like I am so grateful that I get to do this with you.

01:19:58    Rachel

I love doing it together.

01:19:59    Alyssa

 Love you. I'll see you on Thursday. 

01:20:03    Rachel

'Kay, see you Thursday. Love ya 

01:20:06    Alyssa

Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.

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