Returning to Work Postpartum as a Nursing Parent with Lisa Myers
00:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I got to hang out with Lisa Myers. She's the inventor and founding mama of Ceres Chill, a breast milk storage company that replaces the 1970s bulky cooler technology that had been holding people back for decades. In just the last few years, she became a mother of two, was promoted to equity partner, and created a company, all while enduring universal breastfeeding challenges. She looked for ways to make work-life pumping more manageable, but came up empty -handed or disappointed with cumbersome, icky, short -lived, tell -tale milk storage options. Being incredibly stubborn and a resourceful mom, she got down to work inventing a solution to solve the problem simply, elegantly, and affordably. She filed for a patent and began working with an amazing team of friends to make Ceres Chill available to any parent in search of a better way to achieve their breastfeeding goals while continuing to be a great professional success. Now, Lisa dedicates herself and her company to innovating and advocating for pumping parents. Every day is invested in supporting breaking down barriers for breastfeeding families around the globe. Y 'all, I have the Ceres Chill, am a lover of the Ceres Chill, which is what led me to Lisa and am so jazzed to get to share this conversation with you because it's a genuinely a product that I wish I had known about for Sage and use so much for Mila. If this podcast is serving you, if you're feeling supported by it, please take a moment to rate and review the podcast. It helps other folks find Voices of Your Village so they can have access to free support on their journey as well. Thank you so much. I love being in your village and having you here. All right, folks, let's dive in.
00:02:01 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:02:22 Lisa
Hey, Alyssa, how are you doing?
00:02:24 Alyssa
I'm doing well, Lisa, how are you?
00:02:27 Lisa
I'm doing great, thank you. So I have a headset, but it, of course, malfunctioning today.
00:02:35 Alyssa
Take your time, we got time.
00:02:37 Lisa
Okay, okay. You get to watch me sweat, real time.
00:02:41 Alyssa
No, you're good, you're good. There's a chance I have to nurse a human in the middle of this, which is ironic, given the topic.
00:02:52 Lisa
It's perfect. I would call that fortunate.
00:02:55 Alyssa
Love it. Yeah. We have a three and a half month old.
00:03:00 Lisa
Oh my gosh. And you're still doing all of this.
00:03:03 Alyssa
So I'm like just starting to come back to work. Yeah. Coming back part time.
00:03:08 Lisa
That's a lot. And so coming back and like running, running all of Seed and Sew, or like,
00:03:15 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. So we're a team of 12. Um, and yeah, I've been loosely running things, you know, just always, um, but now coming back to podcasting and I do a lot of speaking and presenting and that sort of stuff and slowly coming back into it.
00:03:37 Lisa
Well, um, at least, at least you're managing it slowly. I probably do things too fast and then suffer the consequences, but then we end up with things like Ceres Chill because I get so mad at the world. I'm like, you know what, fine. I'll do it.
00:03:55 Alyssa
I dig this.
00:03:57 Lisa
Yeah. Try again...
00:03:59 Alyssa
Oh, this is better.
00:04:02 Lisa
Okay.
00:04:02 Alyssa
I feel like this is getting better.
00:04:04 Lisa
As long as it doesn't.
00:04:06 Alyssa
Yeah, this is way better.
00:04:08 Lisa
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it will, I just have to be careful how I move because it could, it could just like stop, yes. Stop working, go from working really well to not working at all. Those are our choices. And then lighting. I never, I'm like the least, I am, I grew up on a farm. I'm a super practical person
00:04:27 Alyssa
Love it
00:04:27 Lisa
And I, um, it's something. And so I always like, I don't consider appearances very often. It's like I work in a in a little theater at the top of the hill above my house. And this is one of like six windowless rooms that they like rent out and it works so well for me. But then like I go on a podcast or something and people are like, ah, live from the dungeon.
00:04:55 Alyssa
You know, we'll take you anywhere we can get you. I also I grew up in like farm country in western New York where it was an hour and a half from like a real city, very much rural land. Where are you from?
00:05:10 Lisa
From Eastern, well, originally from Calgary, Alberta, Canada, but then Eastern Washington. So out by Spokane, which is all farm, like wheat, we had hay and cattle.
00:05:22 Alyssa
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's very similar. I grew up in like a lot of cows, a lot of cows.
00:05:27 Lisa
Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you get it, you know, um,
00:05:33 Alyssa
I get it. I like the farm girl..
00:05:33 Lisa
Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm always, I'm never very fashionable. I have to kind of up my game, like as a CEO, um, I'm like this whole dressing just for like pure function, like not naked. I'm always going for not naked. Um, and like sometimes warm enough, but the cold also doesn't bother me. So yeah. So anyway, You're getting, you're getting the full picture today.
00:05:59 Alyssa
I love it. Not naked is one step further than my son is always going for. Three.
00:06:09 Lisa
He's got time. He's got time. He doesn't need to worry about not naked yet.
00:06:13 Alyssa
That's how he feels too. I feel you on the dressing. I don't even know. I think I, whatever. I think it's all patriarchal standards of like dressing like a CEO. Like I'm just going to be, let's get real. I'm going to have another kid's fluids on me in some capacity. Like right now I've spit up on my leg from about 10 minutes ago. Like it's just
00:06:38 Lisa
10 minutes. I mean, I could, if you would said 10 days ago, I'd be like, yeah, yeah. And those pants are still fully functional. They're not like terribly stinky. Like I, the great thing is like having gone on like trips, especially lucky enough to go overseas. And it's like, you know, Trek in like Tanzania that you learn that flies on food is not actually the end of the world, that like you can go for several days, like lack of toilet paper, like lots of sweat, lots of dirt and like wearing the same clothes for a long time. And you're like, wow, nobody died. And like, and we all managed to have a conversation and like, enjoy life and like, you know, it's just so yeah, this whole thing with like, Oh, I don't know that towel. It's three days in use. It's like, that's perfectly fine.
00:07:29 Alyssa
This is how I live. Lisa, I feel like we're gonna be best friends. This is how I live. I'm one of five kids. Grew up in a low -income community, like rural town. And it, there was, it's hilarious. Like we joke with my mother -in -law now, who my husband grew up like lower middle class, like in Burlington, Vermont. So like not super rural. And we're like, we joke with my mother -in -law that it's not going to be that leftover chicken from two days ago that really takes us down. Like that's not how I'm going to die. It is not the mustard in my fridge that like, that's not how I'm going to die. And she is like,
00:08:12 Lisa
But it might kill me to throw it away.
00:08:14 Alyssa
A hundred percent. It's so fine. It's fine. Expiration dates are like loose. Yeah.
00:08:21 Lisa
Yeah. I feel the same way about breast milk too. It drives me nuts and that's like a other thing. And I was lucky enough to go to the human milk symposium, um, in San Diego last week, time has no meaning. And yeah, the stuff they're talking about, like, I mean, the most brilliant scientists and like, community folks, like I spoke with the director of the World Health Organization for two hours about, you know, revising the WHO code. It was so cool. But all of these silly rules around breast milk storage has been like super frustrating too. And I told Dr. Bode, and then I'll stop talking about this and we can actually do the podcast, but I told him, I'm like, I know that you are, you and like all of the people you're collaborating with are looking at how to save people from the devastating effects of Alzheimer's and MS and like, you know, like cardiovascular disease, like using the pieces of breast milk that you're discovering. I think the first question you have to answer though is, and I'm like, and I probably will sound stupid saying this to you, and he's so smart and he's a very nice guy, he's German. But I said, we have to figure out if we really, if breast milk really is garbage on the 366th day. Like, cause everybody is like panicking. I'm like, there are babies dying in hospitals because they don't have access to donor milk. We are throwing away, by my best guess in private homes and in milk banks and in hospitals, at least millions of ounces, like hundreds of thousands of ounces each year. And we know how important the breast milk is. Cause that's why we're all here. And that's what we're talking about. I'm like, can we please figure out if it's truly garbage? Because there are a lot of people throwing it away. And like, what do we do on leap year? I'm like, that's a whole other question, right? Like, I'm just like, doesn't it feel arbitrary to you?
00:10:24 Alyssa
It is so arbitrary, right?
00:10:26 Lisa
Yeah. Maybe it's bad at 10 months, but maybe it's fine until 16 months.
00:10:32 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:10:32 Lisa
Shouldn't we answer that question? And like, and I'm not saying like the, the 367th day milk should go to preterm babies, but all of those parents that are leaving the hospital and you're giving them milk to like, keep them going and get them like really started. Those babies are fine. They can deal with the 367 day milk.
00:10:52 Alyssa
Sure. Or even the people who it's like, it's in my own house and now I'm using it to send to my own kid, you know, like, what? Okay, you're speaking my language here. I, you already know how I feel about expiration dates. So yeah, I might not be the best person for this conversation. But I first want you to know, I'm was new to the Ceres Chill with this kid. So I have a three year old and now three and a half month old. And I love it so much. Thank you. Thank you.
00:11:22 Lisa
You're welcome. Thank you.
00:11:24 Alyssa
Yeah. This is coming from a human who now has two children who have refused every bottle that's been presented to them, will not consume the milk, but still, and such, and it's now forever going to be one of the gifts, especially if somebody's returning to work. But for me, okay, now I'm going to do a Ceres Chill thing, which I'm going to go into here, but I want to circle back to, it's going to bring me back to an expiration date thing. I, when we had Sage, my three -year -old, I lived in a ranch. And so, and my, our bedroom was right off of the kitchen. So Ceres Chill would have been helpful, but like also not such a burden to like put milk in the fridge overnight. This time, we live in a split level and I'm upstairs, my bedroom is, and the kitchen's downstairs, and the Chill has been the best, because all night long as I'm leaking milk into like a Haakaa situation or whatever, just popping it in the Chill and being like, yep, deal with it tomorrow has been the most incredible. I shared about it on my Instagram. We partnered with y 'all to do a giveaway because it was like, people need to have this. It's so good. I bought it with my own money. Love it. Will not stop sharing about it. It's so good. And then, of course, if you're like going back to work, I used it on a car trip where we were going to at the car and I was like, yeah, I'm going to Haakaa some milk. And if she then needs a bottle at some point, we've got the Chill. There is 7 million instances in which I have used it and she won't even take a bottle. Still obsessed with it. But back to the expiration, she won't take a bottle. So now I have all this frozen milk. Thank you. And that I was hoping to use at four back to work time and we're now defrosting like at night my husband puts a bag in the fridge for us to defrost to just continue every day to try a bottle or two and the thing is I was like oh I want to divide say I have a bag that has two ounces in it I want to divide that up into two bottles because I want to give her two attempts to try because she's not taking it now anyway. But if we try one and maybe there isn't another opportunity where it makes sense to try, I then have an ounce and I'm like, can I use that the next day? I got to throw that, right?
00:13:50 Lisa
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh no. I mean.
00:13:53 Alyssa
Is it a strict 24 hours?
00:13:54 Lisa
Oh yeah. And that baby's lips touching that bottle. I'm like, get rid of it. It's an explosive now. Like you, the countdown has begun. Then you have T minus 60 minutes before everyone dies. Like, yeah. And Dr. Stellwagen, who is one of the leading researchers and she's, she's incredible. I could go on and on about her. Her daughter has a baby about, about your, about three months. And, um, and she's like, I tell her to use it all the time, like all the time. And she's the head of the AAP breastfeeding, I don't know what you call it, division, like group, and they still, and I, I was a lawyer. I get it. Like lawyers also contribute to the problem, but like, they're just so afraid to change things. They're like, well, nobody's dying with the way it is. So don't change the advice. I'm like, but they are in a sense. And like, so many moms are throwing away breast milk and you are like, yeah, yeah. like one, two, three barriers, they add up. And it's contributing to women not starting or not finishing their journey the way they want to. And it's like, that is huge. That is important. That's a big deal. And just because this is the way it's been done for 25 years without any basis, doesn't mean we should keep doing it that way. So anyway,
00:15:21 Alyssa
Even just the stress, we got enough mental load as nursing parents, yeah, just adding that in, the additional stress of like, okay, when did this defrost? How long do we have? Zach, did you put, is that the bag from yesterday? Like, you know?
00:15:40 Lisa
Right.
00:15:40 Alyssa
Just like, ooh.
00:15:41 Lisa
And you know that we have the Milkstache, right? I mean, I hate to upsell you, so we have -
00:15:47 Alyssa
No, upsell me right now, I'm in.
00:15:49 Lisa
So that's the whole thing is like, when you're kids screaming or you're trying to figure out this bottle situation, you're like, do I want to defrost the five ounce one or the two ounce one? And you're like, and it's like big question. You always will make the wrong decision and you like defrost the two ounce and they're actually hungrier. So now you're defrosting the five ounce, but you're only using one ounce of it. And so now you have four ounces and you're like, whatever will we do? So the Milkstache, where do I have it here? Here I have it. Thank goodness. Oh, my show and chair. So it's a steel outer compartment with an airtight seal here. And then each of the, Oh, do I not have the lids on them? Yeah, I don't.
00:16:25 Alyssa
Oh, they're like ice cube trays.
00:16:28 Lisa
Yes, but perfect half ounces and they pop easy. And then you can freeze the breast milk in half ounce portions. And then they fit perfectly in any baby bottle, like narrow neck baby bottles, like other companies have like full ounce ones, but these fit really well in teething nets too. So you can put them in the teething nets. And then also just another idea, if your kids don't take bottles and your breast milk is highly valuable and nutritious, even for your three -year -old, if you were so inclined, you could be mixing it into like...
00:17:03 Alyssa
Already am, already am.
00:17:05 Lisa
You're like happening. Happening.
00:17:07 Alyssa
Yeah. He literally... Zach, just the other... We had his three -year -old appointment yesterday and she was like, I feel like knock on wood, he's seemed healthier this winter than last. And we were like, yeah, dude, every time he's had symptoms of anything, I pop a little breast milk in his stuff. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's been, I mean, it's strictly anecdotal for me right now, but like,
00:17:35 Lisa
Oh no, but it's anecdotal around the world. People are like, yeah, of course it keeps people from getting sick.
00:17:42 Alyssa
Also, it feels very Vermont-ey of me to do. It feels like really helps my Vermont brand to like feed my three -year -old breastmilk.
00:17:51 Lisa
Yep. Yep. I mean, and everybody's happy. Everybody's healthy. That's so great. Feels like he's healthier and it's like, oh, yeah.
00:18:00 Alyssa
Yeah, right. Okay. Also, so, you know, you said so we can start the podcast. We've started. You're in it sister.
00:18:08 Lisa
Oh, no. Oh, no. Well, I guess I'll stop picking my nose. Whatever it was I would be..
00:18:15 Alyssa
We mostly use the audio. We mostly use the audio.
00:18:20 Lisa
Except for the real highlights, like Lisa picking her nose.
00:18:23 Alyssa
Yeah, correct. We'll toss that in. Well now I need this little ice cube tray thing. What's it called?
00:18:28 Lisa
The Milkstache because..
00:18:29 Alyssa
That's a solid name.
00:18:32 Lisa
I know names are a big deal to me. I, so, Ceres Chill. Lots of people ask how I landed on Ceres Chill and I didn't want something cutesy. Like I, I was thinking of like us, plus I was thinking of us, like not our children. I mean, of course they're always in the back of our mind, but I was thinking, okay, I have to be, um, I'm just going to say it a bad -ass out in the world, functioning in, functioning in like settings with all men all the time. No knock on them, but they don't totally get it. And I was traveling. I had opened my law firm's Vancouver, Canada office. So I was traveling back and forth by plane a lot. And I was in a lot of meetings and coolers were woefully inadequate for absolutely everything I was trying to do. I mean, you think about the women that are out there. I mean, women who are working from home also doing a lot, women who are just trying to run their home, doing a lot, exclusive pumping moms, are saints trying to get through the night. Like we have an ad with a mom with the Chiller on her bedside. Like,
00:19:41 Alyssa
Is it me? Am I in your ad?
00:19:42 Lisa
I'm fine with that, but yeah, no, um, it's, and there were like a couple of people that would comment, like, just get out of bed. And it's like, you don't understand when you're in it and you're barely surviving and you have to creep past sleeping people, toddlers, partners, tiny babies, and it's cold, you're in Vermont, it's cold in the winter. And you go to the fridge, wherever that is, if it's downstairs or down the hall, whatever. And you open the fridge and the light hits you in the face with a little more cold. And then you go back to bed and you crawl into bed and you're like, well,
00:20:22 Simultaneously
I'm awake.
00:20:26 Lisa
So awake. Yeah, so it's every little thing, like I said, anything to make it simpler. So Ceres Chill, the name though. So it's the goddess Ceres. So the goddess of the harvest and maternal relationships, the Roman goddess. And then Chill, like be cool. Yeah. So cereal, everybody asks like, how do you pronounce Ceres? And I say Ceres like Netflix Series, but the truth is it's Latin. So we're probably all pronouncing it, but the good news is the goddess is not offended.
00:20:54 Alyssa
Like she doesn't care.
00:20:55 Lisa
She's fine. But it is where we get the word cereal from. So that's like, yeah, because of grain and..
00:21:02 Alyssa
Sure. Yeah. That's interesting. Zach makes fun of me because I always call it the Ceres Chill like both words, and he always calls it the Chill like he just, he's like I know what you're talking about like you don't have to like first name last name it every time it's but it is it's a great name it's...
00:21:21 Lisa
Yeah and now you can tell him you're like that's the goddess we're talking about this is what you're trying to do
00:21:26 Alyssa
She deserves to be a part of this. That's rad. So I'm assuming from just, knowing you for 14 seconds, that this was a like, and this is also how my brain works of like, I'm experiencing this problem in my own life, let me solve it.
00:21:45 Lisa
Yeah, that's a really diplomatic way. That's a really diplomatic way to say it. It was more like, are you effing kidding me with this stuff?
00:21:55 Alyssa
100%.
00:21:57 Lisa
How is anyone functioning and does anyone else a problem with what is going on. And so, yeah, I went back to work. Everybody's like, so when did you first have the idea? I'm like, I can almost tell you the email I was writing. Like it was my very first day back to work after having my son. So whole other long story for a different podcast, failing my daughter and not being able to successfully breastfeed her when I was in Philadelphia. Then I move out to Seattle. I have the advice of an amazing lactation consultant. I'm successful breastfeeding my son despite tongue tie and all these other things, but doing it, and it's successful, go back to work at three months, like so many women who are lucky, who are lucky in the United States do. There are some women that are back on their feet days after having a child spring from their body. So go back to work. I have my pump and all my parts and I'm so pleased with myself and I have all these little milk bottles lined up on my desk. And I'm like, Ooh, I'm missing something important here. Key component. How will this, how will this get through the day? And so I thought, okay, well, I guess I got to put it in the fridge. So there was, you know, the communal fridge. So I slipped the milk bottles in my suit pockets and I like, you know,
00:23:15 Alyssa
Like a tampon in middle school?
00:23:15 Lisa
Exactly. How did you know? That's exactly what was happening. And I slide by the guys, all of them in their offices, get to the communal lunchroom. And then I like open the fridge to like all of the stuff. Right. And I let go to set my milk and I'm like, umm, no. So then I go to office services and I get a paper bag and I put it in the paper bag and then I put it in the fridge. And then by some miracle, I remember to take it with me home. And so the whole day, then I totally waste that day looking for the breast milk thermos thing that I knew I needed, right? And I'm a pretty good researcher, like I'm a lawyer, I know how to find the cases to help me win whatever. And so I'm looking on Amazon, I'm looking on Google, I can't find it anywhere. And then finally, one of my colleagues comes in, she's like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm looking for the breast milk thermos thing. And she's like, what are you even talking about? And I'm like, the thermos thing, like, you know, and she's like, cooler. And I'm like, for sure not a cooler. Definitely not looking for a cooler because I already feel and look like a hot mess. If there's one thing I know, it's that I don't need another bag, right? Another bag. And she's like, Lisa, you must be speaking about the cooler. I have no idea what else it is you're chatting away about. And so it's funny, but Helen, this employment lawyer, one of the few women that I worked with, she's the one that bought me my cooler because I flat out refused. I'm that obnoxiously stubborn. I'm like, no. And she bought it for me and I still have it somewhere sad, little cooler. And they're so, they get so gross..
00:24:51 Alyssa
You're like, no my paper bag situation as I hide the milk on the way to the fridge is definitely better than the cooler. Let me tell you, Helen.
00:25:00 Lisa
See, you know. That's like the level that is the level of stubborn that you need to start a company and solve a world problem. Yeah. So that was all a very long way to say that, um, yes, it came from a problem and a need. And then I threw away thousands of ounces and that, like people shudder, get a real strong reaction from people. I was a just enough-er. I was not organized. I also did not know about Haakaa and like passive collection. So I would just leak milk all over myself when I would nurse at night or what I would pump if I didn't have double pumping. And so I would pump on Monday, what would be fed Tuesday and pump on Tuesday, what would be fed Wednesday, that's the way we were getting through. So when I would travel and I'd have to throw out my milk because coolers can't last, right? Like six to eight hours traveling and working. It's not enough time. Plus if your freeze pack isn't perfectly frozen, TSA will make you throw it away. Cause clearly it could be a bomb. And I'm not knocking them. Like TSA agents really don't wake up wanting to make moms cry in the security line. I mean, maybe a couple of them do, but like generally not. And so I just kept thinking there are a million better ways to do something so important and fundamental. So yeah. So the Chiller is awesome through TSA because all you do is you dump your, should I say what it is, or do you want to say what it is? I jumped right in.
00:26:25 Alyssa
No, go ahead and explain what it is. I'll, I'll nod to it in the intro, but go ahead and say what it is.
00:26:30 Lisa
Okay. Um, well it's two chambers. I have a patent. One of like 4% of women that have a patent.
00:26:38 Alyssa
Sick, cheers.
00:26:38 Lisa
Thanks. Thanks. Um, so two chambers, one to hold your milk, one to hold your coolant-- ice typically, and then it can convert everything you need to double pump and feed the baby is all in one bottle. So the upper cup, um, you can flip the connector over, you can double pump. Um, so seven ounces on one side, 12 ounces on the other. So rockstar and slacker boob accounted for, and then you can also make it into a baby bottle. But when go through TSA, the really awesome thing is that you dump out the ice and water, and then they just hold the test strip. You can ask them to change their gloves, hold the test strip over the milk, and then, um, you're on your way. And I love, I always say I make everyone in the company. I nicely ask everyone, all of my colleagues to take milk with them when they go on a trip. So we all work remotely. The company is 100 % remote. People are all over the United States doing amazing work. Not that it's a huge company, but everyone is all over. They travel. They take milk with them so that we can educate TSA and we can know what our customers are going through. And there's like, some of them have never seen Ceres Chill before, and their minds are blown and they're so excited. Because again, they're not trying to make moms cry. Others are fully aware of Ceres Chill. Absolutely love it. And there is this one sweet guy in SeaTac. I still remember, you know, he looks like he's going to give you a hard time about your breast milk. His name was Alan. He was just, he'd called his supervisor over because he was handling my breast milk. And then he's like, you know what, ma 'am, you're going to just go right up these stairs to the Starbucks and get your ice. And I was like, thanks, Alan.
00:28:24 Alyssa
I love you, Alan.
00:28:26 Lisa
I know. I know.
00:28:29 Alyssa
Obsessed. That's so good. So, yeah. Well, and that's the cool part is like once that ice is loaded in, it's like, what, 20 hours?
00:28:36 Lisa
Yeah.
00:28:37 Alyssa
And it keeps it chilled. And so then if you just reload that ice, we're back in business.
00:28:41 Lisa
Yep. Yep. Exactly. So your flight gets canceled or you end up with a double shift. I mean, all these women, I launched during COVID, so January of 2020, the women that, I mean, I like could get, I get goosebumps and I get start crying thinking about it. But during that time, it was like doctors and nurses and postal workers and grocery checkers. Like I made sure that they all had access to a Chiller if they needed it. I got it to them as soon as possible, like 20 % off always, always for military, first responders, teachers. And those were the women that were going into the ER when we had no idea how COVID was being transmitted. And they were going home with tiny new babies, living in their garage or their basement, like with the doors sealed off, putting their breast milk on the steps and waving to their family through the window. Cause they were just so afraid, but they needed to keep doing their job because it was so important. And so, yeah, it was, it's nice because the Chiller can be cleaned. They felt, you know, it was safer, like sterilizing it, but also they working like 12 to 28 hours. And so having Ceres Chill to keep with them, to know nothing had contaminated their breast milk, to know they could add ice and that it was cold enough. That was a really big deal.
00:30:03 Alyssa
It's huge. It's huge. When we are looking at folks who are going back to work, what does that look like? I feel like you guys do a lot of information around like advocating with your employer, having those conversations like here's what I need access to. You know, I, we, locally here in Vermont, we have the company Mamava.
00:30:29 Lisa
Yes, love them.
00:30:31 Alyssa
Yeah, they're great. And they also do like a lot of advocacy work around what you get to have access to and all that jazz. And I think it's a huge part of this that it's not just here's the Ceres Chill, which is also so dope and like fine to stop there. But going to that next step of like, how do you then advocate when you're at work for the time to pump, the ability to do so? What are those employer, I guess, how do you have that conversation and when?
00:31:06 Lisa
Yeah, that's a great question. I would like to say I'm an expert. I have become, I've become an expert and I am living proof that it's possible, but I started out, like I said, I'm a lawyer. I grew up on a farm with a bunch of boys. So I grew up pretty tough. I was on a men's team in college. I was coxswain, and you know, so I'm a trained advocate. Plus I'm lucky. I'm a, I'm a white woman of means, with education, in the United States. You would think I was set up, right? Plus I worked with lawyers, like they know the law, like, right? Like they, they will make sure...
00:31:47 Alyssa
They also know their way around it.
00:31:50 Lisa
You said it, not me. But yeah, and so I was scared to death. I got pregnant and I'm like, well, I guess this is where it ends. It's been, it's been a good run. I had a good career, but now it's all over. And people thought I was so foolish. And they're like, Lisa, plenty of people at the firm get pregnant. I'm like, but not one in my department, not one, not one that stuck around. I mean, yeah, no, we can go back to way gone times and talk about, you know, people who got pregnant and are no longer in this group or with this firm. And so I thought, okay, well, having the kid is going to be very scary. And then breastfeeding is like totally off the table, which I think is why I failed with my daughter is I was just so worried about seeming like I was exactly who I was before and being totally in control and breastfeeding, I just didn't know how I could fit it in. And so that was my fault. And I take responsibility for that. I mean, fault.
00:32:51 Alyssa
Yeah. I so badly want to pop in and just like have a whole podcast episode with you on the word failed for your daughter.
00:32:58 Lisa
Oh, I know. And I say it now and I say it because I'm like, that's really how I feel. And that's authentic. I want to be clear with all of your listeners. it is not okay to feel that way. And there were things I could have done. And mostly what I realized is like not giving myself any space. And when I had my lactation consultant help me with my son, she said, we're going to figure this out, but you are as important, if not more important in this than he is like, we need to make this work for you. And I mean, that was like, what? I just thought I was going to like martyr myself for my son and my employer. Like, I like, really? Like I'm in this?
00:33:41 Alyssa
Well, the thing is, I don't think you failed. I think the system has failed you.
00:33:46 Lisa
Right. But my point in this conversation, I will say is that we're nowhere near the system picking up the slack.
00:33:57 Alyssa
Correct.
00:33:57 Lisa
And so what sucks, and I'm not going to do a whole lean in thing. I read the book. I have a lot of respect for the perspective. Um, but we do have to be responsible in this and just make the choice. Like, do you want to breastfeed? And if the answer is yes, then what information do you need and what conversations do you have to have? And I think it has to start with what do you want you like as an autonomous human being that is now not just the amazing professional you were before, or the person that is like running a household like you did before. But also now you are something more, not less, but more. Now you're also a mother and like, where does that come in? And then what do you need? And the thing is, is I think there's a lot of villainization of employers out there for not accommodating moms who are pumping. But to be fair, I did not know what I needed. So like, how could I expect my employer, who is maybe a man, maybe a woman that's never had a child, or maybe that has children that are like 25 years old? Like, how could they possibly know, before pumps were even available? Let's be real, like, now it's so ubiquitous. But like, the pump act is just a few years old. And before that pumps were not covered by insurance. And we were sending moms back to work and saying, you should breastfeed for six months to a year, but we have no idea how you're going to extract the milk to accomplish that goal. Don't use formula anyway. End of conversation.
00:35:40 Alyssa
So ridiculous.
00:35:41 Lisa
So I know, so I keep going down different paths, but the thing is, is like first identify what you want, then figure it out what you need, which is tricky. So I would say we all are, you know, required to go see pediatricians like right out of the gate, talking to a pediatrician, they may not be supportive. A lot of pediatricians, their whole thing is like, keep the baby alive. We know formula keeps babies alive. Like your breastfeeding challenges are really a problem for me because your child is not gaining weight. And my job is to make sure your child gains weight, formula will accomplish that goal. Please stop talking about your breastfeeding goals. That happens, right? And that's not them being evil. That's them having a different priority. So it's, again, incumbent upon us to identify what's our priority and how do we get there, but having recommendations from a lactation consultant, if you can find one and your pediatrician, on like how long it should take. So, and we have guides that we can link in the notes and that, that are like sample schedules, but like really to say, you're not going to take longer than 30 minutes is not being realistic to get set up and to pump. Really in the beginning, like pumping every couple hours is probably going to be necessary to not get engorged, to not get sick and to like not lose your supply. Right. That's a whole other podcast.
00:37:05 Alyssa
Totally, but true. Yeah.
00:37:07 Lisa
Yeah. So figuring out what you need and then going to your employer, I would say a conversation is better than an email, but it's also can feel very scary and confrontational for you, maybe for them. So an email, and then letting them know in a nice way, what the pump act says, and that is newly passed law. It gives moms recourse against their employers if there's not an accommodation for them, but that recourse is like suing the pants off your employer. And that's not going to necessarily get you what you want. It may ensure you don't get another job in your small community. Right? Like, so yeah, but above all that, and this is going to be like a crazy thing to come back to. And then I want to hear from you and what your experience has been like with your own employees and then in life. But I think above all of that, like to start, if you can start, even when you're find out you're pregnant and you're trying to figure out what you want out of your job and being a mother is to know your value. And that sounds like so simple and very amorphous and abstract, but I think either writing your resume for the first time, depending on who you are in the world, writing your resume for the first time, or updating your resume before you go out on maternity leave, and before you lose track of all of the incredible things you've done and are doing, like your training, your education. I don't care if you were a lifeguard at the local pool, you know, one summer, like you were responsible for keeping people alive. Somebody trusted you with that. And you had CPR training and all this, maybe it's all expired, but it's something. And I find that when I write my resume, I'm like, wow, I am really something. And, but it's like all of that knowledge within me, but until you write it down and it's on paper, it's so easy to lose track of it. And then when you have a baby, and you're sleep deprived, and you're covered in spit up, and you smell like spoiled milk, because, and sweat because you're just like leaking stuff, you are not very in touch with your value. And how can you speak to your employer about your value, and what you deserve, not what they owe you, but what you deserve, so that it's not like you're, they're coming under attack for not giving you what the law requires, but they should be killing themselves to keep you. And the only way to really convey that is not to shove it down their throat, but just like wear that, like feel it. And then when you have the conversation, say, this is how we meet all of our goals this year, it's going to be so amazing. And I'm so excited to be working with you on this. My breastfeeding goals and also our sales goals, whatever.
00:40:07 Alyssa
Yeah. Okay. Love so much about this. First, love the idea of identifying the worth before you are on maternity leave because once you're on maternity leave, it's so easy to feel like you're failing at life when you're like, I can't go to the bathroom by myself. I'm wearing a diaper. I'm leaking from all these holes. I can't figure out how to get dinner on the table, right? There's so much especially early on that I feel like is survival mode that you don't feel like yeah, I'm slaying life. You would be lucky to have me. Right? Like early on it's like no, don't take this, like don't bet on this, and so I love that idea of like mapping that out before you're on leave. And then when you return back, being able to own that and seeing how important you are. And I just, I think from like a conflict resolution standpoint, a problem solving standpoint that we talk about it in Tiny Humans Big Emotions about like doing it with kids, but same with adults of like, you can be on the same team here.
00:41:22 Lisa
Yes.
00:41:23 Alyssa
You can have that same goal of maybe they don't give a flying care if you continue to breastfeed or not, but what is helpful is that you are happy at this job. And so if part of you being happy at this job is you meeting that breastfeeding goal, then that serves them as the employer. And so being able to come to the table and know like, yeah, here's what I need. It's also, I think, especially for people who haven't experienced it, or don't understand, or know much about kids, being able to map out like, here's what it looks like for the first probably few months. Here's what it looks like for the next. This is my one year plan and how it shifts most likely throughout the year. And then once I get to a year, we'll redraw a plan. But what I'm thinking of is more along these lines. Because the idea of like you forever need a half hour every two hours feels different I think than, yeah, for the next three months here's what I need, for the next six months here's what I need, and then we'll be moving towards this.
00:42:33 Lisa
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And we have like a, just because I know getting the conversation started and thinking it through can be so overwhelming, we have sample, we have a sample email. Um, that is, it says exactly that, like this I've, I've spoken with my lactation consultant, my pediatrician, the best way to keep my child and myself healthy over the next several months is breastfeeding. That's a big part of it. I want to accomplish these goals we spoke about for 2024. And so initially I, it's my understanding, I'll need these breaks this, this timeframe, but that will likely change over the year. It may be less and maybe more, but like I will make sure I give you as much notice as possible and we can work together on it. And then the other thing is, is I always work through my pump breaks because for me being distracted helped me produce more milk. Anybody who has stared at the milk being expressed knows how little you can produce because it is, it's like a watched pot or watched kettle never boils, a like intently-stared-at boob will produce less milk, I swear to you. But yeah, so I would work through and you don't have to, you're not obligated to, but your employer doesn't, under the pump act, doesn't have to pay you for those breaks if you're not working. If you are working, they are required to continue paying you. Anyway, I just wanted to make sure I covered the legal aspects of that as well, but to make sure they know it's not forever and it is in their best interest because A. you're awesome and then B. everybody is legit healthier. Like we were talking earlier about how you're like my kid is notably healthier this winter and it may be the breast milk that I'm slipping in the porridge I don't know it's anecdotal and it's proven by science no joke.
00:44:27 Alyssa
Yeah and so I was just thinking we had one of our employees went on leave at the end of May and there's almost nothing I wouldn't have done to get her back, right? So I'm like, I want to make sure she comes back. She slays and I know her value. Even if she forgets it postpartum, I know her value and they're going to feel it, right? Like I think that's one thing when a team member's out for a few months, the whole team feels that. They, everybody wants you back. And I think to go into these conversations with that in mind of like, I think that we really do want to, maybe that's, maybe I've just been really fortunate to be around humans and hear stories from humans, where they've had mostly understanding employers. But that goal of you coming back is generally shared. I also am so jazzed that we live in a time where not only do pumps exist, but portable pumps. And we all know it well, we're a team of mostly moms. There's a team of 12 here at Seed and most humans are moms. And there's been many a time where you hear that sound happening during team meeting. I mean, everybody knows that, right? Like, or a kid pops in to nurse or whatever, but like those, that being just okay, that you don't have to hide the tampon going to the bathroom, that it's okay to be like, yeah, I'm pumping during this meeting. And at this point, pumps are so rad. I don't have to see your nipple while you pump, you know? Like you're doing the thing and that that's okay to do. If that's the right time for you. And we have this standing meeting every week for our full team. Cool. Feel free to do it during this if you want to. And that's just, I mean, that's obviously it's Seed's culture is, I would say, quite mom -friendly or parent -friendly.
00:46:34 Lisa
Human -friendly, human.
00:46:37 Alyssa
Isn't maybe a good sample size, but I think like making that a part of the culture that, yeah, it's okay for you to do this here. You don't have to hide your milk in bottles in the pockets or in a brown bag when you put it in the fridge because we're all able to see breast milk and not vomit, right? Like we, I think are so, we've been so exposed to and used to be in a patriarchal society that we're like, we're gonna hide the parts of us that aren't supposed to be here. And I think we should call bullshit on that and just be like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pump, I'm gonna put my milk in the fridge if I want, or I'm gonna, whatever it is, like, yeah, I'm just gonna do this. And it's okay if you feel uncomfortable around that, that like, we don't have to not feed our babies because of someone's discomfort.
00:47:35 Lisa
Well, and people, I think to your point, they get comfortable through exposure, which is the whole thing about like, you know, the, the breastfeeding days out and everything. And it's like, how will our children not end up uncomfortable if they've never seen anyone breastfeed or pump before, or how do you feed a baby? And so our kids will hopefully be the employers that are like, whatever. Like, of course, I mean, you plan on keeping the baby alive, right? Like however you're going to do that.
00:48:05 Alyssa
Or if this feels important to you. Yeah.
00:48:07 Lisa
Yeah. Yeah. So I, I agree. And with Ceres Chill it's, it's funny at New York magazine called it a Hydroflask for breast milk. And it does, it looks just like a thermos. And yeah. And like women who are, you know, going to the range because they're active duty military or they're surgeons or they're long haul truck drivers, they have their milk with them. I mean, women who are going to like conferences and who are executives or lawyers have it sitting on their desk and you don't know that it's breast milk, But what's cool is that for the coolers, you knew, I mean, everybody knew, and I was like, Oh, sister, I've been there. I'm so sorry. And now it's this like community and camaraderie and women like toast each other with their Chillers. You know, I mean, it's, it's really neat. I love hearing the stories, but so many men are so like impressed by the Chillers too. And like, you know, women are just emptying their milk into the Chiller. And these guys are like, what is going on? And they're like, Oh no, this is how I Chill my breast milk. And look, it can do this and this and like, get out, show me that again. And so, it's not every generation and it's not every workplace, but I think some of the discomfort is ours. Like I will own that like I didn't see a lot of breastfeeding in my world. So I was uncomfortable. And I think I believed other people were uncomfortable whether or not they were particularly on the East coast. And so the thing I would also want everybody to take away is going back to work, you may not have an incredible employer like Seed or someone like you, who is just like, welcome back, how do we support you in your breastfeeding goals? But to think about what you said about your employer missed you while you were gone, it might've been incredibly stressful, not having you as part of the team, not filling your position and they want you back so badly. And, you know, they're trying and manage that disruption because it was like, call it what it is. And then you're coming back and they're thinking about this accommodation. And maybe you send this email that's like, lays out what you need, totally heartfelt. And they respond, okay, we'll talk about it when you get here on the 18th. And you're like,
00:50:22 Alyssa
Nope
00:50:23 Lisa
Oh yeah. And you're like, crestfallen. Right. And you're like, Oh my God, my breastfeeding hopes and dreams are dashed. Like, I guess it's over. And you go into that meeting, you're like, Oh my gosh, like, I can't believe I'm about to get yelled at. And he's like, okay, all right. So we got that spare office set up for you. I think I understand what you need. I'm not sure, the break should be fine. But just like check in if you need something more. And it's like, Oh, you're supportive. And I thought that you were gonna like, fire me or like tell me something terrible. And so I think we just have to meet people where they are, understand that we have our own stuff we're dealing with. And it might be really awkward for them. Like some people, like you said, they just don't know how to talk about it. And they're like, ah, just go to the room and do the thing. And it's not because they aren't necessarily supportive. They just have never seen anybody pump before in their life. And they don't know how to handle it.
00:51:24 Alyssa
Correct. Like my dad doesn't hate the idea of me using a tampon. He hates that he has to think of tampon ever. Right. Or ever hear the word or maybe see it or.
00:51:35 Lisa
Right.
00:51:35 Alyssa
Right. But he's like, sure, go do it. I don't want to hear about it. Yeah.
00:51:40 Lisa
So glad that exists for you.
00:51:42 Alyssa
Great. Please never say it again around me. I think that like that's just going to be part of the journey for us. And I'm super jazzed that there are things like the Ceres Chill that are just normalizing this, right? That I can put the Chill, as Zach calls it, up on that conference table and just be like, yeah, this is here. I'm whatever. I'm in a meeting. This is sitting here. And that's just like, yep, that's just a thing that exists here. And it's not on us to not have this exist, but that that will, I think, help shift it culturally, just normalizing and bringing it in. I'm super jazzed that nursing parents have access to a, like legally support here, that they have access to resources. And I love that idea of a pre -written email. We'll link all of these in the blog post and in the show notes for folks who are tuning in and are like, yeah, hit me with that email. We'll link that out. And also a note, my mother -in -law works in HR and I was like, oh, heads up, I think for you, for like this person returning to work, if they're a human who is trying to continue nursing, or that's something they want to do, maybe a Ceres Chill is a good present from the company.
00:53:07 Lisa
Oh, yeah. And we can customize them now. And it's great. Um, yeah, I do have to shout out the beautiful, fancy, exclusive, incredible law firm, very, very old school in New York. Was the first. Company to get a whole bunch of Chillers for all of their employees and associates worldwide that were pumping at this one firm, because I mean, the branded onesie is lovely, but like something practical that helps you actually like meet your goal, which is do your job and keep small human alive. Like something that contributes to that. That's like, Oh wow. Like you see me and and I didn't even know this thing was in existence. So yeah, it is a very cool thing. I do love that you had that conversation. And we have a list of the things that the Pump Act requires of a pumping space too. And I know that you know them, but people should know that you have a right to a private clean space, that's not a bathroom. You need access to an outlet and access to clean water, but that doesn't mean you get like a generator and a full, like, you know, luxurious sink.
00:54:19 Alyssa
Your own private sink.
00:54:19 Lisa
I mean, access is great. I mean, those are like bonus points if you get all of that, but yeah, it's, um, I've pumped in some pretty, pretty scary places, not necessarily my employer's fault, just like the way the world works, but I think the whole thing can be very overwhelming. Well, I don't think I know through personal experience, the whole thing can be incredibly overwhelming, really scary. And I think it's on both sides. And it's unfortunately still incumbent on us as moms and to all of the employers out there listening, to advocate for ourselves. And then like you said, to normalize breastfeeding and women making that an additional thing they want to accomplish on top of being incredible human beings and contributing to society.
00:55:09 Alyssa
Yeah. 100%. But like, if you wanna be a nursing parent, let's support you with whatever we can to reach that goal. And if you don't want to, also cheers to you. But like, if you want to, let's help you. Lisa, thank you. Thanks, personally, thank you for creating this. Also, my husband thanks you, because let's get real, he was gonna be bringing the breast milk down to the fridge overnight. That was a Zach job with Sage. I would like -
00:55:35 Lisa
This is what you can do.
00:55:36 Alyssa
Correct. With Sage, that's what we would do. I would like Haakaa. So when I'm like, oh, it wasn't that inconvenient for me to go to the fridge. I mean, it wasn't that inconvenient for Zach to go to the fridge. But now that this time around, he didn't even have to make that trip downstairs. And I didn't have to be left thinking like there were definitely nights with Sage where we were both so sleep deprived that it would just sit on my nightstand where I'd like Haakaa it or whatever and like set it down and forget to even be like, hey, can you take this or for him to forget to take it and just in that sleepiness to just be like, Oh yeah, I don't even have to, I just pour it right in. Right. When I'm done was gold. Uh, so thank you. Thanks for creating this product or these products and I'm going to go order my little Milkstashe.
00:56:21 Lisa
Yeah. I know you got to try the Milkstache. The last thing I would say that I would love, Alyssa, I would love for you to like maybe talk about like, if you could include something in the notes about how you want to have the conversations in the future or conversations you've had in the past, like maybe like how you can ask employees, like, you know, what can we do when you come back? Cause you don't want to put pressure on people to breastfeed. So it's not like, so how will you be meeting your two year AAP goal of breastfeeding exclusively for your child? Um, but yeah, maybe like you as an employer, what you've done. And then I would love if your listeners wanted to like email us, like we could have our emails like with their stories, like good, bad and ugly. And like what they thought worked and what didn't work. Cause I, I really collecting the true, actual gritty stuff that moms go through, um, on our website in our blogs is like the way other moms see a path forward, whether it's going to a Taylor Swift concert or it's going back to work. It's like, how am I going to do this and breastfeed and seeing how other moms did it is what allows us to move forward.
00:57:34 Alyssa
What's the best email for people to send that to?
00:57:36 Lisa
I think the best one would be Lisa M, so my last name is Myers at Ceres Chill .com. [email protected]
00:57:44 Alyssa
Okay. So people can send stories there. Uh, and then from our perspective, what we've done so far is to ask someone like, are you planning to nurse? And if they say yes, like great, we would love to help you whatever your goals are. You don't have to know this yet, but when you know, let us know what's most helpful and that it can be an ongoing conversation.
00:58:05 Lisa
Yeah.
00:58:05 Alyssa
Which is like our approach to everything at Seed is like, whatever we talk about right now, like this doesn't have to be the end all be all. If you're like, Hey, I need to shift my schedule. My kid's now doing X, Y, and Z like everything for us is like, cool. What does this look like for now? And this can be an ongoing conversation.
00:58:22 Lisa
Yeah. I love that. It just feels so, I mean, the podcast in general, and then the way you approach things, that emotional intelligence of like, so this isn't the beginning and the end, like we're flexible humans and we can have an exchange that changes in the future.
00:58:40 Alyssa
Yeah. Well, I just want them to know like, what I want is for you to be successful, not just in at work, but in life. And so if you're miserable in life, that's going to affect how you show up at work. So you having a life that feels good is actually beneficial for us here at work too. And let us help you wherever we can.
00:59:03 Lisa
Yeah. Yeah. So enlightened.
00:59:07 Alyssa
Just feels like duh.
00:59:11 Lisa
Perfect way to end this podcast. That is the truth.
00:59:14 Alyssa
Lisa, where can folks find y 'all what's the Ceres Chill handle stuff.
00:59:21 Lisa
Okay. So, um, @CeresChill is us on Instagram and we have really cool, powerful stories there. Um, @CeresChillEspanol, super proud. We have tons and tons of amazing parents that are contributing all in Spanish there. CeresChill.com is where you can find out all the cool stuff on blogs and products. We also sell our products on Amazon. And then we are all over the world working with different lactation consultants and boutiques in Tanzania and Zimbabwe and Ireland. And it's, it's pretty great.
00:59:57 Alyssa
Awesome. Thank you so much.
00:59:59 Lisa
Yeah, this is the best. Thank you.
(Music)
01:00:06 Alyssa
Hello, how are ya?
01:00:09 Rachel
I'm here.
01:00:11 Alyssa
You know what? Same. Ooh, school vacation week.
01:00:18 Rachel
Mm -hmm. I thought it was over. I thought that I was gonna be alone today. Very much not alone. Plus, I have Maverick, so I have a puppy in my house right now.
01:00:33 Alyssa
Oh, gosh. So, it's not over. It's very not over. Yeah.
01:00:37 Rachel
Very much not over.
01:00:39 Alyssa
I'm trying to lean into like, okay, embrace this week as like bonus time with Sage, right? And the reality is that I just, there's zero downtime or whatever. I feel like I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off. Yeah.
01:00:59 Rachel
Yeah. You know what? Earlier in the week, I kind of had the same attitude of like, because my kid's spring break was last week. So I was like, right. I'm like, I have nothing time sensitive for work. I'm just going to like soak up this time with them. And like for the first couple of days, it kind of felt like that. And then it got to a point where I was like, wow, like my capacity is really low right now. Um, because literally it's nonstop.
01:01:23 Alyssa
Yeah.
01:01:23 Rachel
Yeah. So then, like, today, expecting to have, like, a somewhat quiet house and, like, Nora's sick. I feel bad, but I'm also like, wow, my nervous system is shot.
01:01:33 Alyssa
Mama needs a break.
01:01:34 Rachel
Yeah.
01:01:35 Alyssa
Yeah. I'm just I'm on day one. And I'm like, yeah, this morning was nice. We got to, like, connect. It was sunny outside. I put my hands in dirt like a gardener. What?
01:01:47 Rachel
Wow. Who are you?
01:01:48 Alyssa
I don't even know. I, just check back on Thursday. She'll be gone. Maybe sooner. Yeah, but it, uh, it still is just like that every nap time I'm working and working after the kids go down to catch up on stuff like, ooof, is not sustainable.
01:02:09 Rachel
No, it's not.
01:02:12 Alyssa
Here we are doing the thing.
01:02:14 Rachel
Here we are.
01:02:16 Alyssa
Who do we get to chat about today?
01:02:18 Rachel
Okay, we have Lisa Myers is up first.
01:02:23 Alyssa
Let's dive into Lisa Myers. Ceres Chill, yeah?
01:02:26 Rachel
Correct. Yep. Returning to work with a breastfeeding child.
01:02:31 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah, it. This is coming at you while I still don't have a baby who takes a bottle. But I did try this large syringe that is comically large. Zach says it looks like one of those like insemination syringes for horses. And we put this like Haakaa syringe from the very teeny tiny ones that I put the colostrum in, that on top of this very large syringe. And it is a whole thing. She wasn't like really hungry. We tried it once, she wasn't like really hungry. So nothing happened. Although maybe just nothing will happen anyway. But I, the Ceres Chill was great. Got a bunch of milk.
01:03:20 Rachel
You sound so hopeful and optimistic.
01:03:25 Alyssa
You know, there's like a part of me that's like, do all the things, let's make this happen. And then there's a part of me that's just resigned to the like, what if I do nothing else? And we just, this just is what it is. Like Sagey's, we're like the infancy year, she's connected to me.
01:03:42 Rachel
Yeah. I think folks who are listening who have breastfed a child who does not take a bottle will relate deeply to the logistical challenges of that. Breastfeeding is a full -time job. It's more than a full -time job. It's 24 hours a day. Being a child's sole food source, at least for the first four to six months, it's a huge undertaking.
01:04:11 Alyssa
Yeah. The mental energy of it. Like even this, right. Where I'm like, okay, I'm going to be recording with Rach. So let me make sure I nurse beforehand. And then just all of it.
01:04:22 Rachel
You're doing milk math constantly.
01:04:25 Alyssa
All the time.
01:04:26 Rachel
Yeah.
01:04:26 Alyssa
All the time. Yeah. And then I also have found like a don't, there have been times I'm like, ah, I want to like take Sage on like a little outing or go and do this thing that Zach ends going and doing with him because I can't be away from Beans for any length of time. And that feels hard.
01:04:43 Rachel
Yeah, it is hard.
01:04:45 Alyssa
Thank you. But Lisa Myers.
01:04:49 Rachel
Yes. Okay. So I think one of the biggest things for me about everything that she shared was just how bonkers our system is in the United States, where, like, you might have to be talking to your employer about, like, your legal rights around feeding your baby.
01:05:10 Alyssa
Isn't it wild?
01:05:12 Rachel
It's so disheartening.
01:05:16 Alyssa
So much about it is so disheartening. The legal rights around feeding your baby, the amount of time, right? That, like, oh, these babies eat so frequently and need access to a human to feed them for frankly, when we look at like workforce, a real short time that, what would it look like if we were just able to create a system, I don't know maybe look globally how it's been done, where you could just have the option to be home and not, I was just chatting with my neighbor about this not where it's like oh yeah you're home and you just can't get fired in those first 12 weeks because of FMLA, but home and able to stay home financially, like where you..
01:06:04 Rachel
Can afford to live.
01:06:05 Alyssa
Exactly. And we look at like how in demand infant childcare is. And it's like, yeah, this is twofold. Like paid leave also helps solve some of that.
01:06:18 Rachel
Totally.
01:06:20 Alyssa
Yeah. Those are my feelings. I was just like, why are we creating this? And I'm so jazzed that like we have tools like the Ceres Chill, because I think it should be a choice, right? Like if you wanna go back to work and you wanna keep nursing and all that jazz, great. I'm glad that this exists.
01:06:38 Rachel
I am so glad that this exists because right now, like for a lot of nursing parents, like they have to go back to work. So they need tools to exist so that they can nourish their child while still like taking care of their financial needs. Another thing that popped up for me during this was like the misogyny that still exists around breastfeeding, breast milk, all of it, how there's sort of this like cultural disdain for like, oh, I don't want to put my pumped milk in a shared fridge because I don't know what my co -workers will think. And like, yeah, maybe there's some personal preference happening there. But I think for a lot of people, it's like this deeply seated cultural belief that like breast milk is gross and breastfeeding's weird, and man, it's just so problematic.
01:07:33 Alyssa
It's so problematic because literally I have containers that I purchased at the store of cow's milk in my fridge, also just another animal's milk. And we're like, yeah, but that one's normal, right? And like, it's so wild. That's so wild that we have those different perspectives. I, on this note, encapsulated my placenta for both kids. And after Sage's birth, it was in a container, a Tupperware container in my fridge, waiting for someone to come pick it up. And my dad thought it was meat. He pulled it out and he was like, Margaret, what is this? Because they're at my house. And she was like, oh, it's Alyssa's placenta. And he was like, oh, oh, just like full panic mode. Like, what? I'm touching. Margaret, I touched it. She's like, nope, you touched the container that it's in. You didn't touch the actual placenta.
01:08:29 Rachel
And that really ties into like -
01:08:32 Alyssa
Oh my gosh.
01:08:33 Rachel
Just the cultural perception of birthing humans in the postpartum period and lactating humans. And yeah, it's truly wild. I remember being at a doula training when I was still breastfeeding my oldest and the way that it worked, I was trying to make sure that my pumping time was happening during breaks, but there was one time where it wasn't. And the people who were hosting the training were wonderful and gracious, but the woman who was actually putting on the training, I could tell was annoyed that I stepped out. And it's like, this is a doula training. This is your house, part of your profession is supporting postpartum women. Here I am trying to just not get mastitis here, you know, and it's like,
01:09:24 Alyssa
Have milk for my baby
01:09:24 Rachel
I'm not like doing it for fun. I'm not like, oh, I'm bored. Let me go pump. Pumping sucks. And also I think something that gets missed by folks who either haven't breastfed or haven't been in close relationship with somebody breastfeeding is like emptying your breasts is like a health and safety thing. Like we can get very sick if our milk is not removed regularly. And even with that being a reality, it's still such a barrier for nursing humans to be able to either feed their baby or empty their breast with a pump. It's ridiculous.
01:10:01 Alyssa
It is ridiculous. I said it in the episode, but it really reminds me of carrying your tampon to the bathroom in middle school where you're hiding it in your hand or your pocket or whatever. And how early it starts these messages about these things that our bodies are just doing. Like, I'm not in control of my period. Lord, am I not in control of my period. It's just happening and we're trying to plug it, you know, and it's just like, it starts right from the jump where it's just like, no, you have to hide that. That's gross. And like, frankly, blood-- pretty gross. Like, I'm not like period blood is really cool. Like, I think it's pretty gross too, but you're carrying a clean tampon to the bathroom.
01:10:50 Rachel
Yeah. And you're not doing it for fun. Like I remember being in middle school, I needed a tampon. I was afraid to ask. I like told my friend, Kirstie, I'm like, do you have a tampon? And she was like, no, but I'll ask. So in the hallway, she was just like, Hey, does anybody have a tampon? And our math teacher came out of his room and it was like, Kirstie, absolutely not. And she was like, so what do you want her to do. She needs a tampon. Who am I supposed to ask? He's like, you can go to the school nurse. It's like, okay, so the bell's going to ring in like 30 seconds and I'm supposed to miss class to go to the school nurse instead of asking my friends in the hallway so I can get back to learning?
01:11:26 Alyssa
Because you're uncomfortable with the word tampon?
01:11:29 Rachel
Yeah. Like, dude, you teach middle school. Your, your female students are menstruating. Like, this is a reality.
01:11:40 Alyssa
Yikes, yikes, yeah, dang. The misogyny is so real and at the same time, I was like, and cool that you don't have to carry a clunky cooler around. I literally, I'll keep that Ceres Chill and use it as a regular old thermos when I'm done. Once this journey of storing my breast milk that I'll toss is over, I will use it as a regular old thermos. It's nice to have something that is not aggressively cumbersome, et cetera.
01:12:09 Rachel
Totally. I mean, the systems are not going to change anytime soon. And so I think like while we are still in this space where we have to self -advocate, it's so helpful to have things like this.
01:12:21 Alyssa
Yeah. And I think part of the self -advocacy is just going to include the narratives that are going to come up for us around like, yeah, essentially like, is this gross? Am I allowed to advocate for this? is, am I being too much? All that jazz. That when you're asking for special things, accommodations, et cetera, I think a lot of us have learned to not be too much, to not require too much.
01:12:47 Rachel
Yeah, don't be inconvenient.
01:12:51 Alyssa
Yeah. Yes. Actually, on that note, before we wrap this up, I was visiting family this weekend, and Mila met like my dad's side of the family. And we were talking about how like Sage was a really chill baby, almost never cried. Mila cries more than he did, but that she's more flexible and like generally chiller of a human. Whereas he has more sensitivities and he requires more support for regulation, just generally speaking. And I was like, yeah, Sage and Zach are so similar, and Mila and I are so similar and Aunt Steph was like, hang on, are we just gonna act as, are we just gonna let this slide through that you were just like, Mila's so chill. Also, she and I are the same and we're just gonna act like you're so chill. Are we just gonna let that one slide in there? And I was like, listen, I'm like Mila, basic needs are met, like I will advocate for what I need and let you know when I have a need and then when that's met, I'll chill and I'm pretty flexible. And Zach jumped in and was like, and then let me know when the next need is there. And then what comes next? I was like, you guys are the worst. But it just was that, like, I heard that my whole life growing up. I was too high maintenance, too dramatic for just having needs.
01:14:15 Rachel
Yeah, totally.
01:14:18 Alyssa
And so that stuff for sure comes up for me, at least when I'm like, oh yeah, I'm going to need to pump or nurse. I'm on a board of an organization here in Vermont, and it's all focused on like kids and access to high quality childcare. In our very first board meeting, I was like seven weeks postpartum or something, eight weeks, maybe. And it was my first, it was a full day board meeting. So like eight to three sort of thing or something like that. And I was like, I'm gonna need to bring my baby for this. And I like had all these feelings inside of like, I don't want to be annoying, like coming into this board meeting with and everyone was like, this is what we've been missing from this board this whole time is a little baby. And like, I just nursed throughout the day I popped out and nursed and came back into the meeting I whatever needed to happen. And but I still had all those feelings I had to like, be mindful of inside, parts that were like, don't inconvenience anyone. Just be really easy.
01:15:21 Rachel
Yeah, I think too, like for me, I think sometimes motherhood has been portrayed as like in opposition to being a professional human. And so some of that was coming up for me while you were chatting with Lisa in the interview too of like, yeah, we've get all these like subliminal messages that you can't, that like the nurturing part of you that needs to be available to your children is like going to negatively impact who you are as a professional, which is wrong. Like those two things can and do coexist. But it makes sense that that came up for you like in a professional capacity.
01:16:04 Alyssa
Yeah, it's a great point. Well, hopefully we are moving in a good direction even by having these conversations and talking about it. Thanks. Thanks for diving in with me.
01:16:15 Rachel
Jazzed to be here.
01:16:17 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
Connect with Lisa:
Instagram: @cereschill
Website: https://www.cereschill.com/
Order the Chiller: Breastmilk Chiller
Order the Milkstache: Milkstache 2.0
Pumping resources:
Pumping survival tips and the Pump Act
How to talk to your employer about pumping at work
Starting the conversation email draft
Email Lisa your good/bad/horrific pumping stories! [email protected]
