Update: After School Dysregulation with Lori Goodrich, OT
00:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today we get to dive into all of those big feelings that are coming up in this back -to -school time. We get to chat about something called restraint collapse, where kids restrain everything and kind of hold it in throughout the day, and then they collapse and let it all out with us. This is a doozy when they're navigating something new and hard, like back -to -school. It's like it's starting a new job or moving to a new house or any big life change where your brain is trying to figure out all the newness and what it means and it's exhausting. And so then we have these big meltdowns and feelings about things that typically they might not melt down about or that might not be a big deal for them. In this episode, we got to hang out with Lori Goodrich, an occupational therapist who walked us through different ways that you can support your kids after school to help regulate their nervous system. You can also head to seedquiz.com to understand your child's unique nervous system and get free tips and tricks for how to best support your unique child. All right folks, let's dive in.
00:01:21 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:01:43 Alyssa
Hello everyone and welcome back to Voices of Your Village. Today I get to hang out with one of my favorite people, Lori Goodrich. Lori is an occupational therapist who during her decades of practice has developed expertise in sensory integration, neurodevelopmental techniques, and feeding slash mealtime therapy. Lori utilizes her knowledge in these core areas alongside an ever -evolving understanding of other factors that influence the human experience in order to provide a range of services for clients of all ages and abilities. She's passionate about providing accessible and meaningful education opportunities for parents and professionals in order to support the needs of the community and those in it. She feels fortunate to be able to share information in a wide variety of platforms, including workshops, consultations, courses, podcasts. I had the privilege of getting to know Lori as a teacher. Lori was an occupational therapist who was contracted into my school and would come in and really work with us as teachers, not with individual kids, which is really rare in early childhood, at least. Usually, our only access to OTs is if we have a child who's receiving services in our program, and the OT's working directly with the kid. My exposure to Lori was such a gift in that it really feels so in alignment with the CEP method and the work that Lauren and I were doing at the time. And I've just had the ability to learn so stinking much from you, Lori. And I'm so grateful to get to get nerdy with you today and forever get to learn with you. How are you?
00:03:23 Lori
I'm pretty good. How are you doing?
00:03:24 Alyssa
I'm doing pretty good. We are preparing for like back to school in September and all that jazz, which is what brought us to today's topic of restraint collapse. And I think so many of us as parents feel this like, who is my child and why are they a total disaster after school? And I want to dive into the why and also how we can support kids.
00:03:54 Lori
Let's do it.
00:03:55 Alyssa
Let's do it. So what is restraint collapse? Why is that happening?
00:03:59 Lori
It's so interesting. I was confessing to you before we got on that I was like, Oh, never heard that term before. I know what it is. But I was not familiar with the term looking up and was like, Oh, they actually named it, which I think speaks to when a parent or a caregiver you think it's just my child. It's not. There's a name for it. You know, it identifies that you're not the only person going through it, which I know a lot of families that I work with like that sense of, you know, even when it's a hard thing, it's a community around something. And what restraint collapse is, it's often identified with children, but it certainly happens with adults. So adults that are listening might also relate to this. It's sort of, I'm holding it together through the day and doing my best to have a good day and externally might look regulated, but are overwhelmed by components of the day, tasks demand, it could be sensory input, it could be, I don't have my nutritional and sleep needs met, you know, I'm just working hard at this very high level in a lot of areas and I'm holding it together and holding it together and I come home and, you know, that's my safe place. And that's where I'm going to show how hard I've been working no matter what the sort of causes. So parents will say, you know, the teachers never see anything in school, they come home and they are, it's like a switch and they're inconsolable for extended periods of time. It looks like it came out of nowhere is something that I hear a lot of parents talk about when their kids come home. And this is sort of a, it could be every day. It could be uncertain days. And some of the kids that I work with have coordination differences. So like these with PE for them actually aren't a recharge. They're, you know, much harder than other days for sure. So that's what restraint collapse is.
00:05:39 Alyssa
It's almost like a powering through.
00:05:42 Lori
Yeah. Yeah. And some kids do that. I think I've worked with lots of children that that's their sort of profile is there, you know, they're functioning, I would put an air quotes, they're functioning fine in school, we're telling us afterwards out of tremendous cost, that's not the situation. I have plenty of kids that I work with that they're, you know, they're having regulation needs when they come home, but they also exist in school. So I think it's good to know that it's not the same for everybody. And I think it speaks to they're like, they look fine in school, like, but they're telling us from what's happening afterwards, that they're not. And that can be, you know, you know, personality traits, or I think sometimes gender differences can play into that. So there's a lot of things that sort of influence it. But when I have a family that comes to me that says, we're experiencing this, we would like, you know, what do we do? Is it behavior strategies? Is it this, you know, and Alyssa's heard me say this millions of times, like, why? What is happening during the day that's creating that, whether it is often with an OT, it can be that sensory overload piece, but there can be other pieces that are going on. I have some clients that just don't eat enough during the day. So like,
00:06:49 Alyssa
Oh my gosh. Yes.
00:06:50 Lori
I think anyone that's that understands you're like, Oh, right. I know what I feel like when I haven't eaten. Even if I don't understand the sensory differences piece, I understand what it's like to not be fed or not well slept.
00:07:02 Alyssa
Totally. And to feel that dysregulation literally, okay, we were on our way home from vacation and we had stopped in Montpelier, which is like 40 minutes from my house. And I was like, Sage, this is the last time we're stopping. He had to go pee. Then I'm like, we're going to get home from here. He had at the stop before that stopped and pooped at a rest stop. And when he has to go poop, he like won't eat. He usually has a hard time sitting and he'll say, I'm having a hard time sitting. And so we had pooped and we're like, cool, cruising. And didn't put together for myself like, oh, he hasn't really eaten much today because he had to poop when we've been in the car. And so like access to doing that's been limited, whatever. He pees in Montpelier. He has this like full meltdown, like the biggest meltdown he has had since he was maybe a newborn in the car. And I ended up pulling over and like stopping and he just kept saying, I need my mommy. I was driving and I pulled over and I just went up and I put my face on his. I was like, buddy, I'm right here. And he goes, I need rice and beans. And I was like, oh my God, I relate. Like I know that feeling of like, I've gotten to this point of I'm so hangry. I cannot function. So yes. Yeah. And I think for some kids, they like almost eat better at school with consistent mealtimes or like, here's what's there to offer. And some kids don't. And I think that's a really key thing to note of like, if your kid is a kid who doesn't, what does it look like on the way home or at pickup to like have a snack kind of ready to go?
00:08:42 Lori
Right. Right. Like those things. So this is where that like why factor comes in, right? So if you have a child that you know, eating, drinking, and all those things in school are part of their profile of what's tricky at school, you know, signs of the lunch box comes home and there's like, you know, 25 % of the food eaten. And imagine if you ate 25 % of the food for your day between whatever time I get to school, eight to two for a school -aged child. I would be like the crabbiest person on the planet.
00:09:11 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:09:13 Lori
Right, so if you know that's part of your child's profile, it might be that like, you know, that part of the routine is a preferred snack when the students get off the bus or wherever they're coming from. So that they're not continuing to kind of dysregulate from that sort of like depletion of energy. I mean, sometimes you guess wrong, I guess wrong that you're like, Ooh, that's not what it was. But that idea of like, I know that it's tricky for you at school. It's really important for us to have a snack. Let's talk about what snacks I should have in the car. They refuel after a really busy day. Right?
00:09:45 Alyssa
Sure. Yeah. Bringing them into that. I love that. And that helps them build that body awareness for themselves. I'm like, Oh yeah, I am hungry.
00:09:53 Lori
Right.
00:09:54 Alyssa
And this is something that I might know about myself or learn about myself. Yeah. I like that a lot. So just in a nutshell with restraint collapse, they've been kind of like holding it together for the day. Sometimes this will even happen where like, I'll pick Sage up and he'll start to like melt from like my mother -in -law's. And she's like, oh, he was fine the whole time. Yeah, great. First of all, not helpful, but second of all, like, yep, this is part of it. He's been holding it together for you. And now I get the hard parts. And it does happen for us as adults. I found like if I'm in go mode at work and maybe going beyond what I have the capacity or energy for that day that once the dust settles, I might have a migraine or I'm just like, oh my gosh, I'm so depleted, all I want to do is lay. That like exhaustion piece. And so for some kids, I think when we pick them up from school or whatever, we might notice that some kids are melting, some kids disconnect and they just need like, they just want silence or they won't engage. And then there's some kids who are like, let me you all about my day, come on into my classroom.
00:11:01 Lori
Right. It's different for everybody. And I think in those situations, I've seen it happen between caregivers, sometimes from therapy to, you know, myself being, you know, a caregiver for them, or, you know, their teachers say, well, they're not like that at school, like, and they're sometimes making the assumption about caregiver parenting styles. I'll just put that as a very general term. And the fact of the matter is, is like, could that be a factor? Sure, that could be a factor, because we're all different humans, right? But that like, for kids that are already working to hold it together, another demand of the environment changing, who that adult is with me with changing the relationship part, all those things are shifting. I actually just had a really interesting, it doesn't fall into the restraint collapse piece, but I have a young child that I see like a childcare center. So I usually see him in this one room, we're doing an activity he knows how to do, and the school had to use the room for something else kind of unexpectedly. So we kind of knew what was happening, but not when. And so I was like, Oh, we'll just, we'll bring the activity out in the hallway. And it was like he had never done it before. It was so interesting. I'm like, we've done this game together, probably like at least 10 sessions over time. And was like, right, a good reminder. I was communicating with parents about like, it is a good reminder of that shift from one space to another has a demand for him. And you know, we had to kind of work on kind of re-regulating before he keep doing it versus me not me being like, well, you could do it in there. So---
00:12:22 Alyssa
Yeah
00:12:24 Lori
--we can do it here with the same expectation, even though it was a pretty substantial change that we are, you know, now in a totally different space and knew we were going to have to go back to the other room. So it was a very like, even as the adult, you're like, okay, this is like, it's not pushing me into that overwhelmed state, but it is different, you know?
00:12:39 Alyssa
Yeah, for sure.
00:12:40 Lori
Is that what are we going to do?
00:12:41 Alyssa
It's one of the things that I learned from you early on, you taught me this idea of like, is it that this is something they don't know how to do or something they don't have access to right now. And that in that, like switching up the space for him, he knows how to do that game, he knows how to play that game, but now he might not be able to access it. And I think when we're looking at kind of expectations and task demands when kids are coming home from school, maybe they do know how to take care of their lunchbox. They know how to take their shoes off by themselves. Maybe they know how to do certain things in the evening that in those moments they might not have access to from a place of overwhelm. And recognizing that we don't always have access to every tool that we have.
00:13:30 Lori
I always think it's such an empowering thing for adults to say things like, wow, you know, you worked really hard at school today. I'm going to help you put your backpack away. Like, I think I have had parents say to me, well, if I help them with that, they're never going to want to do it their own. And that's not true.
00:13:45 Alyssa
Right. Kids love to do things on their own.
00:13:47 Lori
Yeah, they want to do intrinsically want to do what they can do. But it's just as important for them for the adult to be like, I see you see who you are, I see how hard you're working. And I'm going to, you know, I'm going to help you. It's different than, I'm going to help you with the backpack, or just like enabling to do everything. But like, just verbally acknowledging I can see you worked hard today, or do you want help with your shoes? You know, just giving a little bit of that, you know, and when you think about restraint collapse, you can regroup in a lot of different ways and different, again, different for different people. Relationship is one of those ways to do it.
00:14:23 Alyssa
Right.
00:14:23 Lori
So it's feeling like I'm with you. We're connected. Oh, it doesn't mean it's the only tool or that it's the same for everybody, but for a lot of kids that I work with, I do feel like that feels like them feeling seen and heard is I actually had a mom that just said to me, I feel like OT is about empowerment. Like her kid made skill changes with stuff. And I was like, I love that.
00:14:42 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:14:43 Lori
I love that because it's, you know, we're working on different things, but what she really thought her child got out of it, who was older, he's a third grader was, you know, he just felt like, yeah, I can do stuff like, check me out.
00:14:54 Alyssa
Right. Well, I feel that way as an adult, like the more I've learned about my own nervous system and my sensory systems, it does feel empowering. I'm like, cool, this isn't just like happening to me and I'm failing at life. Once I can like wrap my head around what is draining for me and what's restorative for me and the whys behind it, even though, why can I access certain tools or languages sometimes and not at other times? Understanding that for myself was really empowering. I dig that perspective. And I wanna get into the like, how do we support them after school? And I think that a huge part of this comes back to like understanding who we are as individuals and doing that detective work. And I was just saying the other day, I think that OT's greatest superpower is that y 'all are so curious. And I think curiosity is one of our greatest assets in life, the ability to like pause and just ask questions and get curious about something to learn more. And I think of that as like being a detective. And I want to read an excerpt from the book that I think outlines this, and then we can kind of dive into it. Lauren and I wrote, 'we are detectives working to figure out how to best recharge our battery as well as our children's throughout the day. And we all have a slightly different plug. One person can spin on a merry -go -round for 10 minutes and feel great. Meanwhile, another person feels nauseous after one minute. One person can wear a baby all day and have their cup filled while another person would feel touched out after 20 minutes. And likewise, one baby would feel good being worn all day and another would squirm to get down after a few minutes. The amount of food, rest, and length of brain breaks that one body needs is different than that of another. And it takes trial and error to learn what works best.' This is where we dove into like the triangle of growth and really learning about the sensory systems as our route for then being able to do higher level stuff. And really just pointing out it. You're all different. And so I think that's the part that's really hard is that there isn't a one size fits all prescription that would be so convenient to be like, do this with your child and it will work. In fact, every time I see something on the internet that's like, just do this. I'm like, Oh, for some kids. Sure. What about this child or that child or the parent has a sensory mismatch there. And so I want to go into like, what does it look like to be a sensory detective?
00:17:35 Lori
Well, curious is my favorite word, right? So being a sensory detective is to me, like keywords are being curious, observant. What happened in that moment that made that hard? What happened in that moment that helped, and looking for sort of clusters of information. You know, what actually, what are they sensitive to? What's going to help them function better? What things like task demand that might be in the mix that are making things, you know, increased work for that person. And I always like to remind people, so occupational therapy is a, is currently a graduate level program and sensory integration is a specialized area of practice. And even in really experienced therapists that have high level training, you're still sometimes in that like, because you're trying to make observation about what's going on in the nervous system from stuff you're seeing on the outside, right? I wonder why they're doing that, you know? And so I often, even as a therapist, sometimes when I have a complicated kid, I'll have like a little data collection thing and try to put together clusters of information. So sometimes just observing and writing things down, right? To be like, when were they doing their best? What was making that hard? Those are things that I always think, I think terminology that's out there that I find, sorry, whoever came up with this, I hope they're not listening. Things like sensory seeker, I might be, to me it doesn't mean anything, right? Like, so -
00:18:58 Alyssa
I think we all seek certain sensory experiences.
00:19:01 Lori
Right, and for different reasons, right? So some people that are sensory seekers, which are people that are like seeking out regular, maybe touch or movement, they could be seeking that out because they're overwhelmed with stimulation, that sensory modulation during the day, and they're trying to regulate themselves or -
00:19:18 Alyssa
Again, let's pause that real quick. So I'm, when I hear that, what I hear is that like, they have been kind of depleted all day long. Their body's working really hard and they, if we think of it like a battery, they are in that kind of like red zone maybe. And now they're trying to do things to kind of recharge and make up for that charge up their battery, but from a place of overwhelm.
00:19:43 Lori
Right. They're overwhelmed. So they can hear the humming of the lights and the visual stimulation and kids are grumping into them and their clothing is that doesn't feel just right. That's like that, like, I'm overwhelmed by simulation, that dial doesn't exist for them. So it's kind of constantly on. And then other people, you know, they don't quite understand their bodies, that body awareness of like, where are my arms and legs, but I'm getting dressed. And I'm trying to figure out how to play on the playground and play with my friends. And maybe I'm too rough, or I like to touch kids, because I'm really not sure, you know, where my body and then the rest of the world begins, those people can also be sensory seekers. So this is where like, clustering information. If you're like, wow, they're a sensory seeker, like, do they seem more sensitive to input? Or do they seem like, wow, they don't understand their body as well as they need to, or it could be both. This is where I think things like the sensory quiz that you generated is a great beginning tool for someone to have some questions, to be thinking about, you know, what profile does somebody fall into? So you can start thinking about what these clusters and patterns might actually be. But part of this just being curious, I know the school that we consulted at, doesn't work for every teacher. But I used to say, like, if you have a moment, like, whatever moment is like a more relaxed moment, sometimes you can't tell what it's going to be, maybe it's on the playground. And like, oh, there's less kids here today. Or we have all the TAs are here, you know, one of those days, just sit back and watch the child for like, just aim for five minutes, I'm going to observe five minutes of what they're doing, you know, and just get get curious about like, what what are they doing? Are they avoiding groups, you know, you'd see them covering their ears. Do you see them bumping into kids? Do you see them, a lot of kids that don't understand their body, spend a lot of time walking around on the playground because they don't quite understand the coordination aspects of accessing playground equipment. So it's looking for those sort of clusters of information to be like, what do I think is going on?
00:21:36 Alyssa
We were just on vacation with, there were four families all in a house, seven billion kids between one and nine years old. And it's a handful of folks that work on the SEED team. And so this is like for us fun and it's nerdy. And we were just like sitting on the beach as adults watching the kids and just talking about their sensory profiles, which is hilarious now that I say it out loud. But we were like, oh my gosh, so interesting. Like he is sensory sensitive and will just take space. And when he's starting to feel overwhelmed, will just take space and go away from people or will ask to play with certain toys or go into certain spaces that he already feels really comfortable and trust that environment, et cetera, like where he sleeps or whatever, just like this is a space I know. And then this other tiny human who has low proprioceptive awareness and on people's bodies and they are feeling touched out, but this kiddo is just trying to engage. And we're just observing all of this and we're like, okay, how do we support this human versus this human? And then it's different in what does it look like when you have a group, when we have 7 billion kids in one household between one and nine and we are outnumbered as adults, we can't provide one -to -one here. What does it look like to really support their needs? We were talking about this knowing I was coming back and recording this episode and I was like, yeah, when you come home from school and you're a parent of three kids and they have different sensory needs, right? You've done the observation part and you're like, okay, yeah, she needs movement in certain ways. Like she needs heavy work or she needs vestibular input and he really thrives on connection and she needs downtime and to decrease stimuli and whatever, like looking at these three kids with really different sensory needs after school and how do we accommodate that?
00:23:46 Lori
I'm just gonna acknowledge it's a very hard thing and they have a sense of the parent's nervous system in the middle of that too, right?
00:23:52 Alyssa
A hundred percent.
00:23:54 Lori
Yeah. I think sometimes you have kids that are more independent. So if you, let's say you had an eight -year -old, a four -year -old and a two -year -old, you know, the eight -year -old, you know,
00:24:04 Alyssa
I'll lay out three kids for you. Ready?
00:24:06 Lori
Do it
00:24:06 Alyssa
Nine -year -old who thrives on the connection and a seven -year -old who can get overstimulated and feel overwhelmed coming home from school, sensory sensitive. And then a four year old who seeks both connection and largely proprioceptive input that like big body play or heavy work.
00:24:30 Lori
All right. Okay. Um, I've talked to kids about their bodies. So I--
00:24:35 Alyssa
I love that
00:24:35 Lori
--have conversations with all these kids and whatever capacity they're interested in their, you know, their cognitive development and just general interest, right? It doesn't have to be like, this is part of your brain, it doesn't have to be that your body needs a quiet space after work with the seven year old, let's come up with a place that feels good for you. And you can help to help them design that, right. So they know, hey, whatever you want to call it, the cave, the whatever, your cave is ready for you when you get home, and they know that that's where they can go, right. So it's like something that's already established, or decreases the demand for the parent of having to come up with something. There's already a pop up tent, or I've had some families that live in smaller houses that have will pull the couch away from the wall. So they have like a gap, but you know, maybe books or you know, whatever things that they like or music, those kind of things are kind of already available. So you're decreasing the planning demand for the child but also for yourself. So that's what I might think about seven year old, right, but something that's like established, I have a little boy that I see, I have seen somewhat recently. And they're like, well, we have a tent. I'm like, he needs it up without the planning demand of having to go get it, especially the other two in this group need connection, that you're getting that child's needs met and you're decreasing the complexity of how to do it all at the same time.
00:25:53 Alyssa
Totally. I dig that. And I'm wondering even just if there's a bedroom they can go in that they have, that's their quiet space and it's protected for them, where other siblings aren't going to come in and they have their special toys in there, whatever, that they can just unwind.
00:26:07 Lori
Right. Right. Yeah.
00:26:08 Alyssa
Cool.
00:26:09 Lori
Yeah. So that's what I would do for the seven -year -old. For the nine -year -old, so connection doesn't always, I think it's always a good reminder, connection doesn't have to be like, you're right here, right? So an example I might think of, and this is, I don't know these kids, so it's sort of like, if a parent was like, let's say the four -year -old has the highest level of need from a safety perspective and connection perspective, which means the caregiver is probably gonna have to be more with that physical child, but it could be with the nine -year -old. 'I hid three Pokemon cards in your room. Do you wanna see if you can find them and bring them to me?' I feel like we can get very into like, physical proximity for connection, not knowing that child, I don't know if that would work, right. And it might be, there's 10 cards hiding, I'm going to do a game with your brother. And after you find the card, you and I are going to play Pokemon. FYI, I don't understand how to play Pokemon at all.
00:26:58 Alyssa
Doesn't make sense to me either.
00:27:01 Lori
The cards are very cool. I'll say that. But you could do something that's like, I'm giving you connection, I was thinking of you and then we're physically together. Doesn't always have to be-- if you think of how babies develop, right, they're like, safe close to you and then going and come back, you can use that same idea with older kids. It's sort of what do they actually need? Because that might not cut it for that person to feel connected.
00:27:25 Alyssa
Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah. And then for our four year old.
00:27:29 Lori
For a four year old, so someone that is a proprioceptive, a seeker and likes that intensity and wants connection, I might be thinking, if you had a couple of different things, I know what you have in your house, if you have a trampoline, sometimes just singing a song, and doing that kind of activity, the purpose of something like a trampoline or bouncing together on a yoga ball is get the intensity higher and get the relationship together, you're going to need it for a shorter period of time. Right? So like if they were moving around beanbags, which are kind of light, they'd have do the game a lot longer to get it versus the trampoline. Or I know you have a lot of videos of this on Instagram, which is like the kids jumping in the pillow which is a great game. And if the other child needed in closer proximity, it could be that there's like, you know, they close their eyes, the parent hide the toy on both of them and bring them back. I will say the complexity of having multiple kids with different needs is tricky. I even think what you did, which you kind of mapped out like, all right, what does everybody need? What level of what level of independence do they have? What safety needs? And then you can kind of -
00:28:37 Alyssa
Adjust. I think for myself, I had to also build in this mindset shift of, feels like there's so much to happen after we get home from school and like the workday's ended and it's like, I got to get dinner ready. And then we're going to like, kind of move through a bunch of things. Like there isn't a whole lot of downtime before bed. And I found myself just like jumping into a task and, or expecting to, and having a lot of challenges where it's like, oh, he's dysregulated or he's now like in this space or he's having a hard time doing this thing that I know he can usually do and feeling like it was pulling me away from like getting dinner ready and kind of going through. And I had to shift for myself. All right, we're going to come in and we're going to have 10 minutes of togetherness and connected intentional time and that for us really shifted the evening where I got to like pour into what was helpful for him. And then it allowed me to be able to have that separation in a way where I wasn't turning around and like constantly kind of putting out a fire.
00:29:46 Lori
Right. Yeah. And I think these are things that are like the complexities of parenting, right? Like the idea, if I, if you spent 10 quality, like really focused minutes on what they need, you're both going to function better for the rest of the day. You're not going to be feeling like you're torn of like, I'm trying to cook dinner and meet this need, right? If you're like the first 10 minutes is like, that part is important. And if I know if we do it, the rest of the evening is just going to be much easier.
00:30:12 Alyssa
Yeah. And it, it just for me, like recognizing that it was, I was really taking care of my future self. And that like 10 minutes was actually enough for us. Where like, it didn't have to be that they had uninterrupted half hour of me or an hour or whatever, like 10 minutes goes a long way.
00:30:31 Lori
Right, right. And I think if you have a family that you're like, I wish it was 30, but I only have 10, do the 10. Like, you know, it's kind of like, I'm reading this fascinating book on habits by James Clear, if you haven't read it. I'm like a little, I'm not marketing anything. I'm just obsessed with this book, but he talks about these things about like going to gym for five minutes to build a habit. Right. And I think there's some, there's some really neat concepts in there that I've used with families and adult clients that I see because it is like this idea of like, if you're, if you're aiming for, I don't know what perfection is, whatever that even is, but like move towards something, you know, 10 minutes might get you to like bedtime or towards bedtime, you know,
00:31:13 Alyssa
Or if you have another caregiver coming home at some point, a co parent or whatever, like that might get you there where you have other hands on deck. Yeah.
00:31:20 Lori
Yeah, the nine year old, you could also use, depending on the child, my nephew, who's almost 11, which is hard to believe, but he would he likes to do meal prep sometimes not all the time, but that could be that's sometimes a connection moment for him, like he'll be in the kitchen helping with dinner. That one's not to me, it's not as it's not as reliable, because not every kid want to do that. But those can be, those can be moments that are actually connection opportunities.
00:31:44 Alyssa
Yeah. I was even finding for the nine -year -old, like even on our vacation week, he thrives on connection and like feeling seen and words of affirmation and physical touch are both really big for him. And I found that like, if I was just walking by him and just said something that would be connected where he would feel seen, like, 'Hey bud, earlier, thanks so much for including Sage when you guys were playing. I know it's hard to include a two -year -old sometimes in big kid games. I really appreciate that. That was so kind of you.' That like filled his tank up. It would go a long way for him that then he wasn't frankly doing annoying things for connection that often will happen when they're like, they don't come up to you and say, I feel disconnected, right? Like they do things that are really annoying to get your attention and connection. And when I could proactively just like pop in a little sentence like that, or stand next to him and like rub his back while I was standing next to him, we're like at the fridge at one point looking for what's for lunch. And he was next to me and I just like rubbed his back, had my hand on him and then gave him a little squeeze and said, I love you, Bud, I'm so glad we're here together. And then we went on and made lunch. And like those little things really add up for him that I wonder if even at like pickup from school or once you kind of see each other, if there's a way to connect there that's really short, it's 15 seconds or less than a minute of that intention. And once we know like that goes a long way for him versus his seven -year -old sister, you could do that same thing. And she's like, yeah, whatever. Like that doesn't recharge me. I don't feel fueled by that. I would like you to actually stop touching me and stop talking to me. And I would like to go into my quiet space and play with my toys.
00:33:24 Lori
Right, right. Yeah, no, I love thinking about that. Those like micro dosing of like, and that's different than like if it was, if that child had sensory processing differences, those little mini things, they're kind of like, they might feel good in the moment, but they wouldn't necessarily have the long lasting carryover but with relational or connection work, those little, those micro dosings can actually be the, I love that, I love that. I think this goes to show listeners that it's not like a one size fits all, but I loved hearing you talk about like the things that you were observing and then also like, oh, we know this child has sensory sensitivity, so it means she needs a quiet space. So you're starting to connect what you're seeing to what that child might need. I know you talk about you and Zach meeting different things.
00:34:06 Alyssa
Oh my gosh. Night and day.
00:34:09 Lori
Yeah. It's tough. It's tough when it's like, there's different people that need different things. And sometimes, you know, we, we human nature is like the connection is often like, well, I do this doesn't mean it works for everybody. So it is, it's challenging. So I think there's this, I've said it before, probably during another talk, but I'll say it again. Like you try it. It's evaluation. If it works, it's intervention.
00:34:30 Alyssa
Popped that in the book from you.
00:34:31 Lori
I love it. It's not mine. It's Reggie Bowen. She's great. She was an OT that passed away, But she, I love that. So even for parents or teachers, you know, I'm going in with the theory that it's this, you know, this child needs this, and then you try it and you see, you know, did it work? Was it long enough? Was the intensity enough? Sometimes you make the total wrong, the wrong guess that you're like, oops, that didn't have the effect that I wanted. But that's part of the that's part of the process, because you're trying to understand the nervous system and needs based on external things. And like you said, kids don't come up and say, I'm dysregulated, but they're, they're doing other things to tell you. And our job is to kind of just be observers and think, I'm wondering what they're telling me. I wonder if it's this, let's try this strategy and see how it works.
00:35:17 Alyssa
For the four -year -old, I'm also wondering just in that, like getting home from school, which is like getting to the car and getting inside. If there are ways to build in, like she carries her backpack out or her lunch bag out and just adding kind of like weight to wherever she's going be walking. We have a kid that we work with who has like a weighted bean bag that is in the car with him that sits with him in the car seat on his lap. And it's become like one of his lovies basically, but it stays in the car and it is his like car seat buddy. And it just gives like a little extra pressure throughout this transition that for him is helpful.
00:35:56 Lori
Right. Right. Those are great things. I think thinking about during the actual transition, like weighted, carrying your backpack, like you said, um, chewy snacks are another way to get proprioception, if a child likes things like fruit leathers and like those kinds of snacks that are like chewy bars, those kinds of foods. It's another way to start getting those sorts of sensory deposits in during the transition, um, the car ride, other things that I like, depending on how long their legs are, I have, I have a lot of kids that get nauseous in the car. If they can, if their legs are long enough to reach the car seat in front of them, pushing their feet into it. I'll teach kids games. 'Oh my gosh, you want to make a pancake with your feet on there? What flavor do you think we should make? Do you think we should hold it for five seconds or 10 seconds?' You know, so they're, they're just using their feet and pushing it up against the seat.
00:36:41 Alyssa
Perfect. Yeah.
00:36:43 Lori
So you can make it into, you know, if that's interesting to them, make it into a game, but things like a weighted, a weighted stuffed animal or a backpack on their lap. Those are all, those are all really great strategies that are like, you know, they're, keep them in the car. That's not a thing that comes in and out of the house. It's like a car thing so you know that it's always there. And that idea, they're getting more input over time who's going to last in their system longer, get their needs met more efficiently.
00:37:09 Alyssa
Yeah. And if folks are tuning in, you had mentioned the quiz, but we have kind of like a jumping off point for you. If you go to seedquiz.com, that will guide you through a series of questions to help you understand a little bit more. We then give you at the end, some activities or ideas of what might be helpful for your kid. My kid really benefits from vestibular input, like swings and dipping upside down. Now he'll say like, mom, I want to do some dips or I need to spin around. And I would throw up if I did what he does. We have very different sensory needs. We often are a sensory mismatch, actually. And he is so much like my husband. And, uh, but figuring out those sorts of things and then having activities that you can kind of adjust, you know, like if you know, they really like heavy work looking at maybe if they want connection too, can they carry some ingredients over to you while you're making dinner or whatever? Like how do you build it into your day? I think so often the, the perk of observing and seeing what they gravitate toward is that they will often let us know little clues and hints and they're really good usually at like seeking out what they need, whether it's space or certain types of input, etc. And we don't have to like, you don't have all the toys and gadgets in the world. We can build it into our everyday life once we have an idea of what's regulating for them.
00:38:35 Lori
That's exactly why I started doing more community -based work because I felt like the transition from, I worked in a clinic for almost 20 years, you know, I decided I really wanted to be in homes and schools to really be like, what do they actually have at their actual house that this would work? And how does this actually look when they're melting down, you know,
00:38:53 Alyssa
Totally. Yeah, because it's totally different. It's like, yeah, you don't always have access to a swing. You don't always have access to certain things. And so how do you build it in? Sage, you know, I said, loves that like spinning. And so does Zach. And so they play a game often when we're like going into a or we're going into place. And Sage will ask for it now. He calls it 'where, where, where', where Zach will put him on his shoulders. Like he's sitting on Zach's shoulders and Zach will hold his hands. And he is actually spinning around saying, where's Sage? Where did he go? Where is he? And he will spin around with Zach as Zach's like looking for him on his shoulders. And then he'll dip back on Zach's back while Zach holds his hands or holds his legs. And I like watch it and I can't, I cannot play that game with him because it truly makes me sick. And he knows to like ask dad for it. And we will intentionally like do it when we're going into a space where it gives him, especially like we're going into a restaurant, he'll do it from the car to the door, just like gives him some vestibular input when we're gonna go into a space where he doesn't have access to a swing or something like that.
00:39:56 Lori
Yeah, it's great that you have a family member that likes that.
00:39:59 Alyssa
Oh God, so convenient. Right, yeah. It's really brutal when it's just like him and I, and I'm like, I can do dips with you. I can hold you and I can dip you down.
00:40:06 Lori
Yeah, I think the kids knowing that like you also have a nervous system. You know, I do have a lot of kids that like to spin and sometimes I have, sometimes they're little enough that I can hold them. But like, if they need to spin around for a minute, I'll probably forget vomit. I'll probably fall over. Right?
00:40:20 Alyssa
Totally.
00:40:21 Lori
So it's like one of the kids that I see will do a game. We wrap him up in a blanket and then, you know, on the bed, you know, so he's like,
00:40:29 Alyssa
Pull it out so that he rolls out.
00:40:31 Lori
Yeah. So that idea of like, he knows that there's a choice. I know I have a choice that's safe for both of us that yeah, my nephew is a highly active he always has been and I remember when he was little probably Sage's age we used to do this game, would be like 7am, he's like let's go in the yard. I was like I knew what that means you're gonna want to run around so I would I would get bubbles out and I would sit down and have my coffee and blow bubbles and he'd be racing over the yard so and even now we'll come up with games he wants to do all these stunts in the pool I'm like all right I'll I'll throw the ball and you jump catch it.
00:41:05 Alyssa
Perfect.
00:41:05 Lori
So with how do you find games that like you can do together? It doesn't mean you have to be doing the exact same thing. You can have a job within that game that like work for your nervous system.
00:41:15 Alyssa
Totally. And those little deposits I think are huge. Lori, I think this is so helpful. So I just want to pull it all together that our kids often at school, they're taking in so much stimuli and they have a lot of things that they have to do kind of like we do at work where there's a lot of tasks and people need things from us or want things from us and we're processing all the stimuli and information and doing a lot. And that adds up for us, sensory input is cumulative. And so it continues to add up and they will have access for some regulation, depending on the school or the setup or how old the kid is, but they might have other needs when they get home and it might've just been like, oh my gosh, it really built up. I think, especially in back to school time, if they are changing classrooms, they're getting to know a new caregiver, new routines, kind of new expectations. When everything feels new and there's a lot for your brain to take in, then we want to decrease our task demands. And I think of this where like, just in my first trimester with pregnancy, I was like, okay, what can I take off my plate? Because I just have so much more happening. My bandwidth is lower. What can I take off my plate? Sometimes it meant dinners ordered in instead of making them, or, yeah, I'm just not going to be on top of laundry in the same way, just like looking at where can we decrease things. And so for kids, this might be things that we know that they know how to do. Maybe we're supporting them with, especially in those first few weeks back to school where they're feeling even more overwhelmed than they might as they get into a flow at school and understand the expectations in this classroom and this teacher and these peers, et cetera. And then looking at the observation part of like, who are they? What are they sensitive to and then what recharges them, what fills their cup and how can we essentially make accommodations for that. Also bonus points if you want to pause and do that for yourself of like what am I sensitive to and what recharges me so that maybe you recharge yourself for a hot minute right before pickup or you build in if you're going to play a game with kids when they come home, activities that also are recharging for you, that I'm not playing 'where, where, where' on the way to the car, because then I'm gonna get into the car in a more depleted state. So what can I do to help him from the door to the car as we go home? And then looking at like, if we have multiple kids, what are ways we can set ourselves up for success? Like you said, pulling that couch away from the wall where there's a little spot or creating a space in the bedroom or a little pop -up tent or something where they can go and have that escape or hiding those three Pokemon cards before we leave so there's a thing to do. But a little bit of like looking ahead for ourselves to set ourselves up for success and carving out five to 10 minutes where when we come in, we get to focus on them.
00:44:11 Lori
Right.
00:44:12 Alyssa
It's a gift to ourselves, really.
00:44:14 Lori
Yeah, it totally is. And there are situations, this has been a great conversation. I also think the thing that you just touched on, I want to like bypass of like the parent, like how do you regulate yourself as the adult? Sometimes, sometimes that's the only thing you have access to for something like if you're like, we are deep in this and the things that would normally work, they they're, they're like, you know, they 'flip their lid' as Dan Siegel would say, they're the lower part of the branch, it's hard to access stuff. So sometimes in those situations, what you can control actually is your own regulation, right? I'm going to take some deep breaths, you know, just to get myself grounded in a situation where I can't, they're, I'm here to keep them safe, but we can't quite access some of these tools. And that's not when any of us, I was, I always compared to when people are like, well, just, just calm down. I'm like, that doesn't work. Doesn't work for me. If you're trying to, if I'm upset and you're just trying to talk me out of it, not, it's actually going to make it worse because I'm just going to get mad.
00:45:08 Alyssa
How do we move through it?
00:45:10 Lori
How do you move through it? And sometimes you need time, right? Sometimes it's uncomfortable as the adult. I mean, I'm, I'm sure every parent had been in a store where their kid is having a meltdown over something, or I've been in sessions that what you're describing happens, and you're in a waiting room filled with parents that are like happens to be happening with you, you're the therapist, you're like, well, this is, it's actually something that they're really safe with me. But also like this, this is going to happen. And it's good to know what happened. It's going to no one did anything wrong. This child is just overwhelmed by, you know, the cumulative effects of the day, you know, whatever the thing was that that created that. So sometimes it's like just need space before you can really help them regroup and give them give them ways to do so.
00:45:50 Alyssa
Yeah and it's I think it can be a hard line to find of like when do I give them time and space and when do I step in and co -regulate and we got a whole book for you on this.
00:46:00 Lori
Right that's what the book is for this is like some like "Seeds" if you will of the concept.
00:46:06 Alyssa
That's right planting some Seeds well done. And if folks if you have not ordered the book yet you can head to seedandsew.org/book to get Tiny Humans, Big Emotions. So much of what we talked about today is packed into there. We dive into those unique nervous systems, as well as how to respond to your unique child, that there is no one size fits all when it comes to regulation and emotion processing. And so we dive into all that. Lori, thank you for being you. I love getting to hang out with you and learn from you. It's such a gift. Where can people find you, connect with you, all that jazz?
00:46:45 Lori
The best way to reach me is I have a private practice called Thrive Together Occupational Therapy out in the Boston area. So you're welcome to contact me there if you're interested in services. I provide services in parts of Massachusetts and I'm licensed in Vermont for telehealth. I can do sessions or parent education. I've also love, as you can probably tell from this conversation, I love working with all types of professionals and parents on like education and those things. So those are, there's some information on my website and all the different services that I do offer.
00:47:19 Alyssa
Sweet. We will link that in the blog post and show notes for anyone who's like me and consuming podcasts while they're like on the go or doing dishes or whatever, not jotting things down. You can head to voicesofyourvillage.com to find anything that's been linked here, the Seed Quiz, Lori's website and all that jazz. Thank you, Lori.
00:47:38 Lori
Thanks so much for having me.
00:47:39
[Music]
00:47:45 Rachel
I started off on the wrong foot today because first of all, Cody being the kind human that he is, let me sleep in, but then it was like, had to get Nora out the door for like her appointment and so like I didn't eat breakfast. Then we went school shopping and I just like grabbed a snack at Target. That's not how my body rolls. I eat a lot of food. So now that I'm sitting down, I'm like shoveling food in.
00:48:15 Alyssa
I also just haven't eaten enough today just because of, I mean, Sagey had the dentist appointments where morning was off and then I've been in podcast land where like normally like in the middle of a meeting I can like be snacking on something, whatever. And when I'm recording, it's just no eating and also no movement. My recording day is like, you know, I have a walking pad under my desk. Yesterday I walked five miles just working and it was so nice. And then today I can't move or eat. A little different.
00:48:50 Rachel
Sounds freaking terrible.
00:48:54 Alyssa
Podcasting is great. No, I really do love it. Okay, who are we chatting about today?
00:48:57 Rachel
Okay, so this is Lori's episode.
00:49:00 Alyssa
Oh, yeah, yeah. Back to school, restraint collapse.
00:49:04 Rachel
And this is, I'm like starting to mentally prepare for this.
00:49:08 Alyssa
Sure. Sure.
00:49:10 Rachel
And thinking about like what family systems need to be put back in place as we are going back to school. After school restraint collapse affects both of my children, but primarily Abel.
00:49:25 Alyssa
Yeah, Sage is a beast with it, man. And for him, one thing I've really realized, as you talk about family systems being in place, one thing that is the most beneficial for him is for us to clear the calendar. So I say no to any birthday parties we're invited to at the beginning of the school year. I was gonna put him in fall soccer, and I was like, no. We're just not gonna add an evening thing for him. Really just being able to come home have unstructured time to play. It still includes a meltdown every day for the first like week, sometimes two weeks, but he has no additional capacity for anything else.
00:50:13 Rachel
Yeah, I think reducing task demand is so helpful. One of our challenges is like the car ride home from school. So my kids don't ride a bus. I pick them up and we drive home. And it's like a 25 minute drive, give or take, depending on like traffic and stuff. And my kids are a sensory mismatch. So Nora gets out of school and she's like ready to talk and she wants to tell me all about her day and connect and like chat about anything like stressful that happened or like things she was excited about. And Abel really needs quiet. And he's already been listening to talking all day. And he he's done. He doesn't want to. So one thing that I think I'm going to do differently this year, we're like in years past, I've just kind of like, tried to have a quick conversation with Nora and then like put on music and try to keep things. And it just doesn't work, like it just doesn't work. So I think what I'm going to do is buy them both headphones, and I'm going to have Nora have an option for like music. And Abel will also have an option for music, but he can also just not engage in noise. He can just be in the quiet car. And then let Noni know that when we get home and Abel can go to his room, she and I can sit at the table, have a snack together, and talk about everything she wants to talk to me about. I feel like at this age, she's old enough to wait for that 25 minute car ride before we chat. And if she has the option of music or a story, I think she'll be fine with it.
00:51:48 Alyssa
Yeah. That's rad. Well, and for sound sensitive kids like Abel and like Sagey, if you can control the sound, it can actually be regulating, right? So in the same way that if I am like, oh my gosh, my household is, it's too loud. And there's tapping happening from my husband and whatever, the drumming and all the things. If I can put my AirPods in and I can choose something, I choose an audio book or I choose a podcast or I choose a song, it's regulating. And I think sometimes with kids, we give them like noise canceling headphones, which can be helpful for just like blocking out some additional sound. But like the addition of being able to choose your sound moves it from I'm just decreasing some dysregulation on the outside to I'm engaging in a regulating activity.
00:52:41 Rachel
Totally. Abel loves listening to stories. Nora doesn't because her brain is moving too fast for that jazz. But so he will probably want to use, like we have a, I can't remember what it's called, a Yodo.
00:52:55 Alyssa
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:52:56 Rachel
I bought it for Nora for Christmas when she was like five and she's pretty much never used it, but Abel is starting to use it. She's like, this doesn't involve movement. So boring. So, but he's starting to use it. And so I think I might have that as an option for him.
00:53:15 Alyssa
Could she, I don't know if this would make her feel nauseous or she'd be into this, but could she like essentially journal or write or offload anything on the way home with like pen and paper that if it was like, you're really excited to talk about, or if you wanna list out the things you wanna talk about so you don't forget them, because now she's able to write.
00:53:36 Rachel
Totally. And that's a thing for her because I'll be like, Nora, my brain can't take it right now. She'll be like, but I'm going to forget. So I've started to say like, yeah, you can write it down. So yeah, I'll have like probably what she will have is like a notebook with some pens. And then the other thing is that I found that she will read in the car and she pretty much won't read anywhere else because she'd rather be like doing backflips or using every ingredient in the kitchen. So she, I plan to also like keep our stack of library books in the car and when she's forced to sit still, she's more likely to read.
00:54:12 Alyssa
Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Rad. I think what's key for folks to know in this season of back to school time is that I remember every single time I'm in it, whether it's back to school or just like this happens, the uptick in restraint collapse happens at other times too, like coming out of vacations or if you move or you had a new sibling or navigating a divorce or something like that, where there's big changes for kids and they just have less capacity for flexibility and for stimuli. And so for me, 100 % of the time that we've been in one of these seasons, I turned to Zach at some point and I'm like, is this just who he is now? Like, I feel like I I now have a new kid that frankly, I don't enjoy hanging out with. And 100 % of the time that happens for me and Zach has to remind me like, nope, this happened, remember? This happened last time we left vacation or this happened. And I'm like, okay, you're right. Okay, okay. This is temporary. We're gonna get back to the human we know. And he just is in it right now and life feels busy for him right now and his brain feels busy and he's holding it together for everyone else and letting it go for us. Sometimes it's compounded by outside comments from people who are like, oh, yeah, he was fine all day. I'm like, cool, sick, I'm so glad you enjoyed that. That sounds fun.
00:55:42 Rachel
That used to really bug me, because I would talk to Nora's -
00:55:47 Alyssa
It's just not helpful.
00:55:49 Rachel
It's not helpful, and I would leave a conversation with Nora's teacher and be like, Are we even like dealing with the same child? And then it was like, okay, she, especially Nora, Nora suppresses her emotions unless she is with somebody that she feels safe with. And that's like a very limited amount of people. And I am her number one when it comes to expressing tough stuff. So yeah, she does hold it together all day at school. She suppresses, she doesn't feel safe to express. Then she gets home and it's like, wow, there's so much that needs to come out.
00:56:27 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. And you just get to be that space for them to melt down and it's hard. It's just like, it's also a time where they're learning so many new things of like routines and expectations in a classroom and rules in that space and whatever. And I think it's a really important thing for us as parents to remember that this is not a time for us to teach them additional new things, right? Like this is not a time where I'm gonna be like, and now we're gonna work on tying your shoes or potty training or learning how to do this chore for the first time. Like this is not a time where we're working on something new at home. Oh, and welcome to your new big boy bed. Like not now. And so really keeping that in mind too that like they're already pretty spent, additional new learnings, they're going to be really hard for them in this like couple weeks.
00:57:27 Rachel
And it's hard to keep that in perspective of like it is just going to be probably a couple weeks and also I think you get this feeling of like okay it's a new school year it's like time to change things up it's time like let's get rid of the diapers or let's get rid of the crib right and it's like, no, no, don't do it.
00:57:46 Alyssa
Hold it together. Actually, at one point, when Sagey was maybe like two -ish, yeah, because I was pregnant with Beans, Zach said something along the lines of like, oh yeah, we're gonna enter into that season where I just sweep some things under the rug. And I was like, what? And he was like, yeah, basically your first year postpartum, you're tired and you're snappier and you're ruder. And I had told myself, when Sagey is sleeping, then if she's still doing those things, I'll address them. And he was like, but basically, I just let you be ruder to me for a year till he was like sleeping through the night than I, he was like, normally I would have brought things up that I was just like, I think she's just tired. And he was like, and then sure enough, once Sagey was sleeping through the night, you were kinder as a human and he's like you know I'm not gonna let myself be your punching bag forever but he was like I was just trying to figure out, like I didn't expect the same thing from you postpartum as a human that I do of normal you.
00:58:57 Rachel
Right
00:58:57 Alyssa
And I was like oh my gosh well you know what thanks like he never told me he was doing that he never brought those things up he was just able to say to himself really like, yeah, this isn't about me, she's tired.
00:59:11 Rachel
Right, and I think it's like, can we extend that kind of grace to our children? Right. Where like, no, you can't treat me like a punching bag, but also I understand that you're going through it right now so I might be a little bit more lenient about certain things and not get on your back about your tone when I know that you are exhausted.
00:59:39 Alyssa
And sometimes I'll even point things out like, 'Bud, I can tell you're having a hard time asking for things kindly right now. I'm wondering if you're tired. Let's go snuggle on the couch or let's go take a break.' So I'm still acknowledging like, this is the behavior I'm seeing on the surface. I know it's not who you are. And I think this is where it's coming from and it's okay.
01:00:01 Rachel
100%. So one thing that is hard for us during back -to -school time is the unpacking of the lunch boxes. That's their responsibility. And my child who does not struggle with executive function does fine with it. My child who does struggle with executive function has a really hard time, especially at the beginning of the year. And I've said stuff like my expectation moving forward will be that you're gonna do this, but I know you're really tired the first couple of weeks of school, so I'll do it for you. Not that I want to. And like, then there's the whole age bias thing, right? Because my son, who's four years younger, but has a different brain, has no issue dealing with the lunch box. There's all those layers there of like.
01:00:52 Alyssa
Yeah, like you should know better, you should know how to do this, you can do it. Yeah, for sure.
01:00:57 Rachel
And like, yeah, she can do it and she does know how, and it's hard to do it when you're exhausted.
01:01:02 Alyssa
It reminds me of, we have an interview coming up that'll air with Ralphie Jacobs from Simply on Purpose. And she said, it's that difference between can't and won't. And we often confuse the two where we're like, oh, they won't do this. And it's that they can't right now, that they don't have the capacity to do that right now. They're too spent. I actually, on vacation, I, when I was just like nursing Beans every 90 minutes, it was such an S show, and I was so tired, and at one point, I'm like trying to get things ready for the beach, and like just all the mental load of like, all right, we need lunches, how long are we planning to be down there, snacks, water bottles, the whole shebang, all the things. Yep. And Zach started asking me a question and I normally when I'm rested could field that, because the like what do we need to get out the door feels like it runs in the back of my head and I can field questions on the surface. When I'm tired I have to really think about the what do we need to get out the door and I can't field questions on the surface. And so he started asking a question and I was like, truly like, just not right now. Like I can't with that right now. And it's just a different Alyssa that he's getting because I don't have the capacity that I normally have to answer a question like that at that time.
01:02:33 Rachel
Yeah. One thing that I find helpful is like, sometimes I'll notice myself falling into sort of this like fear based reasoning where I'm like, well, if I don't have her unload her lunchbox starting now, then maybe she won't do it in two weeks when I start accepting it.
01:02:50 Alyssa
She's never gonna know how to do it.
01:02:52 Rachel
And it's like, yeah. And I'll literally ask myself, what would happen if I didn't turn this into a power struggle? Like what would happen if I just took care of it right now? Spoiler alert, nothing disastrous happens if you help your kids when they're tired. They just feel supported. And then when they're more regulated, you can work on the skill that you're building towards.
01:03:12 Alyssa
And in fact, when they're more regulated, they're more open to collaboration for it because they're like, oh, you helped me when I didn't have the space for it.
01:03:20 Rachel
Yeah. And also how many times do we ask our kids to help us? Like, I'll be like, hey Noni, can you go grab this? Can you bring me this? Can you go throw this in the washing machine? And nine times out of 10, she does it. And it's like, I want to extend that same, like, yeah, I can't be at your beck and call. That's not realistic. But like, when you're I can do this like little kind thing for you.
01:03:44 Alyssa
We can be in a relationship.
01:03:47 Rachel
Yeah, like we, this is an opportunity to model what we want, how we want them to show up as humans. If my kids know that somebody is tired and they need help, I want them to offer help. So like, I'm gonna show them what that looks like.
01:04:01 Alyssa
Yeah, yeah. I hope folks just in this season set the expectation of kids are gonna be testier. They are going to be on edge more. They're going to have bigger feelings. They're going to melt down over things that are atypical or feel like they don't matter. That has to be our expectation.
01:04:21 Rachel
And that it's okay if you have some flexible boundaries during that time, and it doesn't mean that you can't ever get to a point where things are going according to your expectations. It's just in this early part of back to school.
01:04:38 Alyssa
Yeah. And you can even validate it. You can say for them, like, hey, bud, I know you've had a long day at school so your brain was working so hard. I can help you with unloading your lunchbox today.
01:04:50 Rachel
Totally, like framing it for them so that, because one thing that I don't want is for, it's like this balance, right? Of like, I want to model graciousness and I also don't want my kids to be entitled. So like how, like, yeah, I'm not gonna -
01:05:03 Alyssa
Like a learned helplessness, yeah.
01:05:05 Rachel
Yeah, like I'm not gonna do your lunchbox forever. And I'm here for you during this stressful period where you're adjusting.
01:05:13 Alyssa
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, well, if you are diving into back to school time, come on over to the 'Gram. We have a post waiting for you there and we can support you and dive into ways that you can help your kiddos as they're coming home from school, probably feeling all the feels and letting it all ride. Also, head to seedquiz.com to help understand your kid's nervous system and some activities that may and may not be helpful for your unique child. Thanks Rach.
01:06:00 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the 'Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
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