Why Autism Goes Undiagnosed with Dr. Taylor Day, PhD
00:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village. And today I got to hang out with Dr. Taylor Day to chat about masking in autism. We dove into what high masking is and how it shows up outside of the autistic community as well. Oh man, it is such a bonkers idea to me that we are still so focused on eliciting certain behaviors when we know that behavior is the communication of a need. We get to dive into all that jazz in this episode. And whether you have a child who is autistic, you're autistic, or you know somebody or not, this episode's for you because you have a nervous system. Every human has a nervous system, and there's so much packed into this conversation that will apply for you and your kids as well. Dr. Taylor Day is a licensed psychologist specializing in neuroaffirming care for autistic children and their families, including very early diagnosis and early intervention. She has a PhD in clinical psychology and is the CEO and founder of Dr. Tay Concierge Clinical Care. Her practice integrates the whole family approach, a process she created utilizing evidence -informed principles after seeing a gap in autism care. Her passion for child psychology and her focus on autism is in many ways tied to her own personal experience growing up with a brother who was diagnosed at 23 months of age. Y 'all, this episode is full of goodness. I am so jazzed for you to dive in. All right, without further ado, let's dive in.
00:01:53 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:02:15 Alyssa
Well, we get so many questions about autism and I'm excited to get to have a convo with you about it today. I am curious, like what piqued your interest in autism and diving into this topic?
00:02:31 Dr. Tay
Yeah. I actually grew up with an autistic brother, so we're 10 years apart and I was 12 when he was diagnosed. He was diagnosed at 23 months of age.
00:02:41 Alyssa
Wow, early.
00:02:42 Dr. Tay
And so it was early, very early, especially back then because he is almost 25 now. So over two decades ago, because of a lot of advocacy from my mom in particular. So yeah, autism part of my world very quickly. And it was one of those things that, you know, living it and like experiencing it. My brother got a lot of support services and you know, I I saw what he was able to gain in terms of like skills and all of that where then it became how do I help other people do this? Like how do I give back in some ways? And so it's always been one of those passions.
00:03:27 Alyssa
Sure. Sure. I am I mean in awe of your mom for the advocacy. That's incredible. Diagnosis under the age of five is so hard, even today, hard to get that diagnosis. So cheers to her for listening to her gut and advocating for him. And so now help me understand like the full approach that you dive into here. Can you break it down for folks?
00:03:55 Dr. Tay
Yeah, absolutely. So influenced by my experience as a sibling, one of the things that I saw is the fact that autistic kids tend to be very supported with services, but their family does not, there's not a lot of support services for the family as a whole. And so
00:04:12 Alyssa
Sure
00:04:13 Dr. Tay
In launching my practice, I realized I wanted to do things very differently than traditional care and owning my own practice and being an entrepreneur, I could do that. And I could pivot. And so I really coined the whole family approach. And it's focused on not only how do we help autistic child thrive, but how do we help the family members around them thrive? And talking about, you know, parental mental health in this, talking about their own capacity, their own nervous system regulation, talking about siblings, and how do we make decisions that truly serve the whole family, which in turn is also going to serve the autistic child, and making sure that we are putting that at the center. So, you know, I literally before we hopped on, I was in I have a group therapy model, where families get like individual coaching, and I, it comes up constantly. And so one family was deciding, do we homeschool our kid? And, you know, we were talking about, like, we can't just factor in the decision for the kid in this, like, what is your capacity as a parent. How will this impact you? How will it impact the rest of the family? We were talking about if this mom does homeschool the autistic child, what will the siblings think of this? And so we're not making decisions only in best interest of the autistic child, although that is always a core, but rather really making sure we see that cascading effect taken into account because the family is an ecosystem. What affects one person affects the others.
00:05:52 Alyssa
I love this so much because often when we're approaching anything, we look at one piece of the puzzle. And what you're doing is really pulling back and looking at the puzzle as a whole and recognizing that yeah, that parental mental health affects the autistic child in a huge way.
00:06:15 Dr. Tay
Yeah.
00:06:16 Alyssa
And the entire ecosystem being at homeostasis is important for everyone to thrive. I dig this so much. Okay. I want to get a little nerdy with you today and chat about autism. One of the things that we're hearing a lot of, so we have a teacher support community. We work with early childhood educators and they have access to our platform that has ongoing coaching support so they can ask questions at any point and receive coaching support from OTs and SLPs and psychologists and social workers, et cetera. And then we have a slew of professional development for them as well. And then families have access to our stuff. But one of the questions that's been coming up lately is around masking. And so I want to chat about this of if you can break down for folks what masking is, what high masking autism is. And I want to kind of dive into this topic a little bit.
00:07:15 Dr. Tay
Yeah. So this idea of masking, what it is, is it's a lot of times the kid is in tune with their environment and what the expectations are. And I really love coming from this mindset of kids will do well when they can. And so it's not this like intentional choice, but rather they do want to do the best they can. And sometimes they're not able to access that because they don't have the capacity for it. And so that's a quote by Dr. Ross Greene and it's kind of a whole mindset that I think is so important. And so what happens in terms of, I find this pattern where kids mask at school quite frequently and then they're going home and there's this rebound effect where they're melting down, you know, they're very dysregulated. And I think what's complicated, I work with a lot of schools And I'll hear, like, no, this child can't be autistic because, like, we want more of them. Like, literally, we want to, like, duplicate this child. They're so compliant. They're so X, Y, and Z.
00:08:18 Alyssa
They're so good.
00:08:19 Dr. Tay
They're so good. And what we need to remember is the nervous system impact of that. They likely are in a freeze -fawn state when they're at school. And they're putting all their energy and effort into trying to follow classroom rules and, you know, what is expected of them. And this might be hard for some educators to hear, but I do think as a whole that the education system is a very compliance -driven model,
00:08:52 Alyssa
100%
00:08:54 Dr. Tay
You know, like raise your hand, you need to sit in your seat. And we aren't always the most affirming of differences in that, especially when those differences don't seem to always present as clearly. And so it's like, we just expect kids to comply. And so these kids that are high masking are doing that, but we have to realize the impact that it's having. And so a lot of times when kids are high masking, they're in tune with what the neurotypical standards are and they're trying to follow them in order to fit in, in order to not stand out. I see a lot of kids who maybe do have a 504 or an IEP and they don't want to use their accommodations because they don't want to be different. That's another example of masking, even though they need those support services or they need those accommodations.
00:09:49 Alyssa
Okay. I have a few different thoughts here. My wheels are spinning. I'm actually going to jot myself a note because I'm going to forget one of them. Okay. My first question for you is, and this is going to be controversial.
00:10:06 Dr. Tay
Yeah. Let's go there.
00:10:09 Alyssa
Is masking bad? In that like when I am at work or when I'm at my grandma's, like the way that I show up in different situations, who gets my hard stuff isn't everyone, right? That like, I know that I can break down and have that restraint collapse component with my husband or with my best friend. I wouldn't go and have that like at the grocery store with the checkout counter person unless it's an accident, right? where I'm like, oh shoot, I was like living so close to tears, and they asked, how are you today? And now I'm sobbing, right? But from like a social skills side of things, is masking bad?
00:11:00 Dr. Tay
The answer is yes and no. And I'd love to be able to expand on that, right?
00:11:05 Alyssa
Please, let's dance.
00:11:06 Dr. Tay
Yeah. Because I think some of it is what you're describing is to some degree, we all mask and we're shifting our behavior based on the context. And so there are ways and reasons that this absolutely can be beneficial. And it's also adaptive, right? Recognizing I'm not in my scenario that I feel safe, therefore I'm going to shift my behavior. That really can serve someone versus once I get to my safe place, okay, this is where I know I will be supported. And so in some ways there are things-- like autistic adults, I think it's really important. I am not autistic, so I cannot speak to that lived experience, but I listen to them a lot. And some will say like, yes, like I intentionally mask sometimes, you know, and that it does serve me. And so I think there absolutely are ways that that is true. Another one that we don't talk about, but needs to be talked about is when we are looking at like BIPOC and, you know, autistic BIPOC and them having to mask to literally stay safe. There's -
00:12:24 Alyssa
Yeah, to stay alive.
00:12:25 Dr. Tay
Exactly. There's something very adaptive of that. And, you know, like that, that's their reality. And so I think that we can't always say masking doesn't serve someone, but what's hard is the individual gets to decide if it serves them or not. We don't, as the external world, we don't get to decide that. So even just real quick to tie it back to educators, we don't get to decide whether a kid should be masking at school and if that's a good thing or a bad thing. We need to look at the impact. And so kids don't always have insight into it. we can work and model and talk about it and help them build their insight. But we also at the same time, their behaviors are telling us everything. Their behaviors are communicative. And this is where masking sometimes isn't beneficial. It actually can be detrimental. And we know from research that masking can lead to really poor mental health outcomes, higher rates of anxiety, depression, suicidality. And that very much is a clear like this isn't serving them. And so I think just to point out the difference of your example versus an autistic person, what's happening, their bucket is filling to maximum capacity. And then by the time they get home, that's where we see their restraint collapse, the rebound, and it's really dysregulating for them. And so a lot of times on an average day, I don't know your neurotype, but for some people, we don't actually fill our bucket. We might still be a little distressed, but we have to look at the level of distress. And for autistic kids, if they're complying all day at school, coming home, melting down. We also need school. I encourage schools. I encourage educators. You need to be communicating with parents about what's happening at home. And please stop saying that this is a parenting issue. Stop saying, oh, everything.
00:14:32 Alyssa
Well, we don't see any of that here.
00:14:34 Dr. Tay
That's so incredibly invalidating. And I will say that I hear it time and time again.
00:14:40 Alyssa
Yeah. So I have a sensory sensitive three -year -old and I have heard it multiple times. I was like, oh my gosh, we don't see any of that. And I'm like, totally. Thanks, that's helpful. When we're looking at the masking in school, one thing that came up for me was that if they're in a freeze -fawn state, then masking's gonna affect their ability to learn. And so at that point, like, yeah, that is detrimental for them, that maybe we're going to see things like lower test scores or their inability to be attentive to things. And it's not from a place of defiance, which I think is one that's often named, or I know they can do this and they're just choosing not to, or they're lazy or whatever. And it's that, yeah, no, they are not able to take in this content. One of the things that came up for me too, as you were sharing about the differences and not wanting to tap into their accommodations in fear of appearing different and what will happen there. We know that especially in that like kindergarten to 12th grade range, we are seeing that inclusion in belonging are just so crucial and so important in that age range. And they're really coming into like, who am I? Who am I in this group? How do I survive socially? What does that look like, right? And from like a really primal space. And there is, I think, so much value in teachers at every age group being able to talk about differences, not as a, we're all the same and this person's different, but in a, hey, we're going to kickstart the year with understanding how do our bodies work? My body, when I feel overwhelmed, I like to have a hug, I like to touch somebody. When my three -year -old's body feels overwhelmed, he doesn't like touch. He wants to have space and he wants to go. He calls it being a turtle. He wants to go inside of his shell. He wants to hide from stimuli. He wants to really have like a break from everything around him. And being able to really talk about these things with kids, whether they're five or they're 15, all of our bodies respond differently. And so what you're going to need to thrive in the classroom is going to be different than somebody else. And I want to help us all figure out what do you need to thrive? And so maybe one person wears glasses because that helps them see or somebody else stands at their desk or somebody else sits in this seat or somebody else goes and takes a walk so that they can have a break before they come down and sit at the morning meeting. Really just normalizing that our goal here is to figure out how all of our bodies work and what's gonna be most helpful for us to exist together in this environment. And I think so often we only talk about differences when it's outside of what we're expecting to be the norm. And that it's not just autistic kids who are masking, it's not just neurodivergent humans who are masking, we're seeing neurotypical humans mask as well throughout the day. And what's happening here is this othering still when I think we're trying to do it from a place of inclusion, but are failing to recognize that everyone in this classroom has a nervous system. And we can talk about everybody's nervous systems and help everybody understand how they operate.
00:18:26 Dr. Tay
Right, exactly. And this is the difference of neurodiversity affirming like approaches is neurodiversity encompasses all neurotypes, including neurotypical people in this. And so we're talking about everyone's differences. And so I love all those examples. And like, that's the thing I often, when schools are asking me like, well, how do we make it easier for this kid to access their accommodations? One of my things that I'm talking about is like, yeah, we need to be educating about neurodiversity and just differences in general, right? At the classroom -wide level, we need to be allowing accommodations to occur at the classroom -wide level. So it's not that this kid has fidgets, it's that we have fidgets in the classroom. Everyone can use them. No, like I'll hear, oh, but they're distracting for kids. And it's like, they actually usually aren't, you know? We might, it might not look like their attention is what would be ideal, which comes back to compliance, right? right? We need to be providing this as a whole. And I think this is where we often misstep is we want kids to be able to access their accommodations, but we're not providing the right systemic supports for that to occur.
00:19:47 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:19:47 Dr. Tay
And another one real quick that I see all the time, and it's something that's been coming up a lot with the families I work with It's just like, yeah, my kid has accommodations, but everything is contingent on him or her asking for those accommodations.
00:20:04 Alyssa
Or earning.
00:20:05 Dr. Tay
Or earning. Oh, don't get me started.
00:20:07 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:20:07 Dr. Tay
That is always a no -go. But even asking, self -advocacy is a skill. So what are we doing to build up that skill first and foremost? And secondly -
00:20:17 Alyssa
Also just pause for a minute. Like, how many adults out there, like, oh, I have a need, but the vulnerability of asking for that need to be met prevents me from asking, and now we're saying to kids, like, just ask for it. If you need it, you have to ask. Like, what?
00:20:34 Dr. Tay
Yes. Right. Right. Yeah. And it's like, it's a skill. We need to be teaching it, and that needs to be available even if they can't self -advocate. And this also connects me back to so many like rabbit holes I could go down.
00:20:51 Alyssa
Same.
00:20:52 Dr. Tay
Yeah.
00:20:52 Alyssa
This is fun.
00:20:53 Dr. Tay
This idea of we expect kids to be compliant until they're 18. And then at 18, we expect them to have the skills for self -advocacy and autonomy and agency and all of this. What's interesting is even within kind of non -autistic individuals, we're seeing a really hard shift here, right? Like there's a lot of young adults that are struggling to be able to do that. There's a lot of people our age that are struggling to do this, right? Like we're getting generations of people pleasers. Well, of course, we are we've been teaching
00:21:31 Alyssa
Of course we are because if you get a reward every time you're quiet and still on the carpet or you get a reward every time you didn't express your emotional needs. Of course we are. Oh my gosh Taylor I do consulting in school districts, K -12, as well as running our early childhood program. And it is, it's so hard. There's an entire system, the PBIS. This is, it's a positive reward system. Yes, and it is so common in school districts. And it's built on this basis of, we're only going to acknowledge or reward quote, positive behavior. here. And what that really means is you're not expressing your needs and you are compliant or you are quiet and that you've had a... Gosh, I had this little kid recently, five years old, a lot of trauma, and it was getting ready to go home and he asked his teacher, was I a good boy today? Have I been good today? And my heart just aches for him because I'm I'm like, buddy, you're a good boy every day. You're a great kid. And if you're having a hard time making the choice in class that you're supposed to make, that is not on you. We need to provide you the correct environment and supports for you to be successful here. We'll be right back after this short break.
00:23:01
[Ad break]
00:23:02 Alyssa
Welcome back from break. Any thoughts on that, Taylor?
00:23:08 Dr. Tay
I mean, yeah, I think the thing is, is obviously this episode and my specialty is in autism, but this applies so broadly. And I think this is what is at the crux of neurodiversity -affirming care is seeing autistic children as humans first, helping them to learn how to self -advocate, self -regulate. And having, I think this is a confusion too, having autonomy and agency doesn't mean that they're getting to make all the decisions doesn't mean that they're--
00:23:41 Alyssa
Not a free -for -all.
00:23:42 Dr. Tay
And so I think we're faced against some system -wide changes that need to occur.
00:23:53 Alyssa
Can you break down what that does mean then for folks who are like, wait, if it doesn't mean a free -for -all, what does it look like? I love to think about in terms of autonomy and agency, and this often comes up when I'm talking with parents about what's called PDA, pathological demand avoidance, or you'll hear it as persistent or pervasive drive for autonomy. And, you know, it's not a diagnosis, but is more right now conceptualizes this theorized profile of autism, where basically real quick context. So when I explain this, the body goes into fight or flight reaction, and it also can do the freeze/fawn state in response to everyday demands or a perceived loss of autonomy, agency, equality. And so
00:24:39 Alyssa
When we're asking them to do something or telling them to do something.
00:24:43 Dr. Tay
Exactly. Exactly.
00:24:44 Alyssa
Hey, bud, we need to get our shoes and coat on to head out the door.
00:24:47 Dr. Tay
Right. Right. Exactly.
00:24:49 Alyssa
I will not be doing that.
00:24:50 Dr. Tay
Right. Right. Exactly. You know, and so I like to think about this three -bucket approach because we do know that lowering demands can help to keep their nervous system regulated. A regulated nervous system, we were referencing this earlier, like kids have to be regulated and engaged in order to learn and to be able to experience the world. And so when we lower demands, we are thereby increasing autonomy and agency. However, at the same point, I talk with parents that there's three buckets we need to think about, and we need to do this mindfully. In the first bucket, I call it the non -negotiables. These are things you are always going to set demands and boundaries around. I don't tell families what go here with the exception of anything safety -related goes here. You know, aggression, for example, self -injury, wearing your seatbelt in the car, you know, like that always goes here. The other thing that goes here are really key family values that it's so important to the family, like it's a must. And so we're mindfully choosing that even if this activates the child and dysregulates their nervous system, that the benefits are worth it.
00:26:06 Alyssa
Outweigh the cost.
00:26:07 Dr. Tay
Yeah, exactly.
00:26:08 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:26:08 Dr. Tay
On the other extreme, we have what I call the shoulds. These are typically things that come from neurotypical parenting standards, or that the way that you were raised as a kid, just this automatic response. And these are things that when you and if you have like a parenting partner or, you know, other caregivers where you're sitting down and saying, how much do we truly care about this? And when we have these conversations, a lot of times it's like, wait, I don't care if my kid has to wear pajamas or never wears jeans, or I don't care. You know, this can be a big kind of Pandora's box, but if our kid sits down with us at the dinner table every night as long as you're there.
00:26:55 Alyssa
I don't care.
00:26:55 Dr. Tay
Yeah, right. But family values, I'm not saying that sitting at the dinner table is a should and you should always drop it. I'm saying you need to mindfully decide where things go. But the shoulds are what we are dropping and that we will consistently drop.
00:27:12 Alyssa
And that this can vary, right? So like for us, our should that we're dropping, especially dinner, is he doesn't have to sit there. It's his hardest time of day. He's usually the most dysregulated by the end of the day. And as a sensory sensitive human, mealtime is very hard. There's talking, there's sitting, there's smell and taste and texture, and it's very hard for him. And so if he is able to nourish his body more by getting up, playing, moving around, standing, whatever, great, that's what we're focused on. And we have somebody we're close to where it's an absolute must in their household, sit down and eat dinner or be at the table for the conversation and the whatever. We have different takes on this. We have different shoulds here.
00:28:01 Dr. Tay
Yes, and that's again, you have to decide as a parent what goes in what bucket. I will say that could be a key family value where it is a non -negotiable or it could go in this third bucket that I'm about to talk about in a second.
00:28:15 Alyssa
Okay.
00:28:16 Dr. Tay
But the other thing that I really want to encourage parents to do is actually challenging themselves to think through this because sometimes we're in default mode and it's like, well, we need to sit at the dinner table because as a child, I always sat at the dinner table and this was the rule. And like, of course we do this. And also the pediatrician is asking me, do you guys sit down and eat dinner as a family? Like, I don't want to have to answer no.
00:28:43 Alyssa
Well, like everything on social media says that if we eat dinner together, they're going to have, we're going to have a more connected relationship or whatever we call BS on this. But yeah, that you're going to scroll and see.
00:28:56 Dr. Tay
Yeah. And that's a neurotypical parenting standard, right?
00:28:58 Alyssa
Yeah. And frankly, it doesn't lead to connection for us.
00:29:02 Dr. Tay
Nope.
00:29:02 Alyssa
It leads to disconnection and dysregulation.
00:29:05 Dr. Tay
Exactly. Exactly. So then that third bucket is in the middle. It's what I call either the ideals or the yet bucket. Like, we're not there yet. We would eventually like to have this demand and this boundary be part of our family ecosystem. But when kids are in autistic burnout, we're only going to, you know, be focused on the non -negotiables, and then we're going to slowly think about adding some of these yets or ideals in. And so this is where I'm working with families, like we got to focus on regulation first and calming the nervous system before we're having all of these things. So we might temporarily drop them with the goal of being able to add them back in. And so I have kids, like as an example, that haven't been able to access school, but parents don't want to, you know, eventually homeschool long -term. And so that might go in the ideal yet bucket. I also have other families who school is really hard for them, but it is not possible for the family to homeschool, and so that becomes a non -negotiable for that family, right? And that's the demand and boundary we're intentionally choosing. And so to go back to answer, this is long -winded, but to answer your question of how does autonomy and agency exist with boundaries, that's exactly this, right? And we can also say things like, I hear you and validate the emotion and this is not possible right now. And so still holding that boundary. And so I just, again, I just came out of group therapy. So I have lots of examples. We were just had this whole conversation about boredom. And I told the parent, I said, sometimes we don't realize that like these two things are separated. And what that is, is that you have the right as a parent to be able to set this boundary. Your child has the right to be able to have the reaction that they need to have. And we can validate that emotion another example also was talking about like wanting to buy something you know you can set it and set the boundary they can have their reaction there's still autonomy and agency in that we're not teaching a kid like don't ask you know like you can acknowledge
00:31:28 Alyssa
Or don't feel
00:31:30 Dr. Tay
Or don't feel exactly I hear you yeah and you know this is not feasible right now but it's okay you're really mad at me as a result of this.
00:31:39 Alyssa
We just had an epic, fun meltdown right before I came on. Today's a home day that's typically a school day, which is already a dysregulating factor in our household. And we do rest time because he doesn't nap anymore, but he'll go up and rest and he has full access to whatever in his room. And about 10 minutes before rest time, he wanted to paint. I was like, Oh, buddy, painting takes longer than we have. We have 10 minutes and to set up paint and to paint and to clean it up takes longer than that. We can paint this afternoon if you'd like. And it just was a spiral into that was not, mom, let's make a plan for me to paint now. Can we please make a plan as he's like sobbing, shutting the bathroom door, the whole thing. And after like the dust all settled and we went up for rest time because he spent the 10 minutes of whatever he had left downstairs yelling at me about not painting. Then we went up for rest time. I was either going to carry him or he could go up and he, as I was walking towards him to carry him, ran up the stairs and he got into his room and he went into his cozy little spot and hid and he wants me in the room, but he doesn't want talking. He wants to know as little stim as possible. And so he'll go into a cozy little spot and then start to emerge when he's ready. And then I could like validate his experience and that he was really disappointed about that. I think what's so real for us is you have to have the capacity to navigate the hard stuff and that's where like our own capacity matters. It's honestly, for us, like school's a rubber band stretch for him. We intentionally chose and had the privilege of intentionally choosing a preschool that has eight kids in the classroom from a stim perspective for him, but it's still a rubber band stretch for him. And he would be most regulated if he didn't go to school, if he was homeschooled. And I would be most dysregulated if he didn't go to school. And so in order for me to handle his hard stuff and be the most regulated parent, him going to school is really important for our relationship and for me showing up for him. But I think the autonomy piece and allowing their hard emotions in reaction to being told no or a boundary being held or enforced is that the reality of that is our capacity is a part of that equation.
00:34:32 Dr. Tay
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think this is... I mean, to tie it back to the beginning of this episode, the whole family approach and thinking about all of these and how important that is. But I also want to point out in that moment, I think sometimes the parental default is to want to fix the emotions because, again, as adults, we learned that as kids that we...
00:34:54 Alyssa
It also sucks to be around.
00:34:55 Dr. Tay
Yeah. That too. That's a good point. It's not fun.
00:34:59 Alyssa
I'm not like, I'm having a great time while he slams this door and screams, like, no, like, even outside of the like, social programming and conditioning from our childhood, it's not enjoyable to be around somebody who's screaming and having a hard time.
00:35:14 Dr. Tay
Yeah, I love that point. And so yeah, then we default to wanting to fix, but really, we just need to create space for the emotions. And some of that includes you modeling that as a parent for your kid too, right? Like I was just coaching another parent through and he was like, I am overstimulated from all of these requests and all of this and like, you know, like, what do I do about that? I'm like, talk about it. Model what you can do. And he was like, oh, right. I can have feelings and emotions in this and my kid can learn from them. I'm like, modeling is the most effective way for kids to learn because they see it, it helps to click, it normalizes it, but then we aren't using language loaded ways of teaching. And so it's just so incredibly beneficial to model and normalize and talk even about your own emotions as an adult.
00:36:17 Alyssa
Yeah, it's so huge. and to allow yourself to have them and not feel like you're failing for having them. Yeah, for sure, for sure. So with PDA, I think it can often be mistaken for defiance. And in our work, one of the things we talk about are different ways that dysregulation can present and defiance being one of them. And defiance is the most triggering for folks. Of all the ways that dysregulation can present, And most commonly the one that folks are reporting as most triggering is defiance because it appears as though they're making a choice, that they have self -control in that moment, that they're staring you in the face and saying, I'm in a regulated state and I'm choosing not to do this. Can we dive into that a little bit here with PDA?
00:37:06 Dr. Tay
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the piece that I'll add to that as well is some of why defiance is also dysregulating is because we grow up in a world, in a society where we say compliance is essential for kids to be good kids, right? And so when they override that, it does feel distressing. And, you know, I'll hear parents or educators or other clinicians be like, well, what does this mean? And I'm like, like long -term, right? Like, are they gonna -
00:37:38 Alyssa
Yeah, they don't give a hoot about authority. What are they gonna do with that?
00:37:41 Dr. Tay
Exactly, and I'm like, you know, No, let's take a step back. Why is this kid doing it? And let's not worry about correcting the behavior, but understand the why behind it. And so, you know, I see, so PDA being a theorized profile of autism. So one, I get a lot of families who, you know, read about it. Maybe they've been told previously, like their kid has like ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, or that, you know, that they're a willful child. A lot of times these parents have tried every behavioral intervention under the book and it's not working And so then they feel like they're failing as parents or sometimes they even have therapists be like, oh well you're not consistent enough, you know you know like all these like different things and what it comes down to is I get a lot of parents who read about PDA and for the first time ever they're thinking wait I've never considered my child might be autistic. My child may be autistic, you know, and so that's my primary referral into my practice is parents saying I read about PDA and now I'm here for a diagnostic evaluation. And so it being this this gateway and this opening and then the
00:39:02 Alyssa
Interesting
00:39:02 Dr. Tay
Yeah, it really is and then the other way that I find this PDA conceptualization so helpful because it's controversial, right? You're going to get providers who are going to be like, this isn't a real thing. You're going to get educators who say this isn't a real thing. But I think we can simultaneously hold space for the fact that we need more research and information and we need it clearer defined while also validating the human experience and what could be going on and realizing that the strategies often recommended for PDA can be really beneficial. And a lot of what we talked about has been exactly that today. And that's where I also find it helpful is not going at the behavior itself and trying to reduce the behavior, but realizing the behavior is a form of communication and what as adults are we missing in this formula? And so, yeah, it's about really taking this step back and again, presuming competence, presuming that this kid will do well if they can. If they're not right now, then they're unsupported in this. And part of our role as adults is to be an investigator and figure out how can we better support them.
00:40:20 Alyssa
Yeah, oh, I love this so much. I was presenting to a group of teachers the other day and I said, what I'm about to say, if you don't believe to be true, we have no further work to do together today. And it was that behavior is a communication of a need. And if we don't, if we are not in agreement that behavior is communication, what are we doing?
00:40:45 Dr. Tay
Yeah.
00:40:46 Alyssa
Where and where do we go from there? Because I think that that's the one thing, if I could think of anything, that I want people to like really embody because it allows us to get curious And then say, like, what is going on for this human? What is driving this? What are they trying to tell us? I was just observing some classrooms in kindergarten to first grade range, or pre -K to first grade range, and in a public school, and I was in two separate kindergartens, kind of back to back, and the second kindergarten classroom I was in, I was chatting with the teacher, and they've got some challenging behaviors in there. And she was like, Oh, they're just, they're really great communicators. And she's like, I just feel like sometimes you just need help decoding. Like, what are they trying to communicate? And her relationships with her students, it was felt. Like you could feel the kid's safety, even amidst like dysregulation and challenges and the classroom prior to that was really compliance focused. And it was focused on like, we want to elicit certain behaviors. And with a lack of curiosity. And you could feel that too. In fact, there were some really big, challenging behaviors popping up there that probably aren't going to go away without curiosity coming into the picture. And I was like, oh, wow, just like glaring in my face, like two classrooms back to back and the felt experience, like that's that neuroception component of like being in this space, it was tangible. And it's not that one classroom had easier kids than the other by any means. It was that one teacher was curious about what was driving the behavior.
00:42:35 Dr. Tay
Right. Yeah, and a lot of times as adults, we're missing earlier bids for communication, especially -
00:42:40 Alyssa
A hundred percent.
00:42:41 Dr. Tay
Yeah, especially I find in autistic kids, but I think this is true of all kids. And so then what happens is we're missing all of it. So they do naturally have to escalate in order to be heard. And of course, there is still a reinforcement pattern. You know, I don't like completely let go of behaviorism, right? Like that's how we operate as humans. It's how we use it is super, super important. But of course, they're going to keep going to that because what they've learned and what's been reinforced to them is they are not heard when they use other strategies. And so we're going to choose the most efficient and effective method to communicate. And so that's a lot of times, you know, like it might seem like, no, no, no, I'm confident there is no pre -communication to this. They go right to it. And it's like, right, but let's look at the history. There was, and we told them that those modes of communication aren't important and they won't be responded to. So of course they're going to do that.
00:43:45 Alyssa
100%. Yeah. Oh, man. Taylor, it's like you've been following me around these last few weeks. I was spending time in another classroom and I was observing and it got to the point of a kid throwing a chair. And everyone is, the behavior team, instruction, everybody is like, what do we do here? Like, what is going on? We don't know how to make this stop. And there were four bids for connection prior to the chair being thrown, all of which were missed. And even when he had the chair in his hands, not even yet throwing it, just is holding it up and still miss. I'm like, what did you expect him to do? He's asking over and over and over, do you see me? And we're saying no until you throw the chair.
00:44:41 Dr. Tay
I know. And I also want to recognize it is hard to make these changes, right? I have teachers and educators that I work with
00:44:52 Alyssa
So hard.
00:44:52 Dr. Tay
And the system doesn't always promote it and support you in this. And this is where we need a larger impact. I have right now a school counselor who is like trying all of these things. And, you know, teachers are slowly coming along, but like, then someone comes in who isn't trained in this and is going to kind of these traditional methods. And so it is hard and it's so impactful. And I love when teachers are taking the time to learn this. I know, you know, burnout is very real, but I also think about, let's talk about ecosystem for a second by shifting your approach. Like, you probably are in a state of burnout too if you're constantly trying to problem -solve every behavior. Imagine spending a little time and energy on the front end, which is going to be more exhausting. But imagine leaving your classroom each day feeling really connected with your students, feeling like you have that relationship, feeling like they're growing. And I had a family recently, I'm working directly with the parents, but the parents start telling the story of the kid's first day of school, he had a meltdown, he kicked the wall, and they went in for parent -teacher conference and the teacher was like, here's what we've been focusing on for the last month. We've been, I want him to feel safe. I want him to feel like he can trust me. And you know what? There has not been one incident since that. And this kid is learning and growing and thriving. This was previous prior to him starting at this school. The question was, does he have a learning disability? Like, can he learn? Is he capable of learning? Well, he wasn't capable in a dysregulated state. And so -
00:46:38 Alyssa
Yeah, none of us are.
00:46:39 Dr. Tay
Yeah, exactly. And so this is where it's hard working against a system and your individual role in this can matter so greatly, especially for the kids in your classroom.
00:46:53 Alyssa
100%, 100%. Taylor, I could do this with you all day. This is very fun for me, and I want to continue this conversation, but I want to be respectful of your time as well. Where can folks find you, learn more about you and your work, and dive deeper into this?
00:47:14 Dr. Tay
Yeah, absolutely. Before I jump into this, I have one nagging thought that I just feel like I need to -
00:47:18 Alyssa
Please, go. Say it.
00:47:20 Dr. Tay
At the beginning of the episode, we were talking about early diagnosis, and we were talking
00:47:24 Alyssa
Yeah,
00:47:25 Dr. Tay
With my brother and how young he was. And yes, very true. And then you said like a lot of families are having, you know, challenges, like even getting this identified before age five. And yes, that's true. And I want families to know that we actually can diagnose autism very young. Like we use research to show as young as 14 months of age that diagnoses are possible and stable and reliable and valid. And so I think that's really important too. So if a parent is listening to this episode like not letting the system wide issue of delayed diagnoses like impact, you might have to get on wait lists, right? And it could take a while, but follow that gut and intuition, even if other people are saying to take a wait and see approach.
00:48:13 Alyssa
Love that.
00:48:14 Dr. Tay
Yeah. And this is where, you know, ultimately the way that I built my practice, I am out of network with insurance, which I know for all families is not feasible, but I'm able to see kids sooner. I'm able to give more immediate support. We don't have long wait lists. And so sometimes you can get creative, put your kid on a bunch of wait lists if you do need to go in network. But if you do have possibilities and you want to explore that, you know, I can practice and the psychologists in my practice as well, who are trained on all of this can practice in over 40 states. The website is drtaylorday.com and you can learn about diagnostic evaluations as well as therapy support. Everything is virtual. I also love giving back and love educating for free as well and providing resources. And I'd say the primary ways that I do this right now are through my podcast called Evolve with Dr. Tay and on social media with my primary platform for social media being Instagram, and it's the.dr.tay.
00:49:21 Alyssa
Thank you so much, folks, I know y 'all are podcast listeners because you're here right now, so go tune into her podcast and head on over and follow her on Instagram. Thank you so much, Taylor.
00:49:35 Dr. Tay
Thank you so much for having me today.
00:49:37 Alyssa
And Rach and I will be right back after this short ad break.
00:49:40
[Music]
00:49:46 Alyssa
How does it feel for you to be a sports mom?
00:49:51 Rachel
I hate it. I am more of like a library mom or a let's go hiking to the ocean mom.
00:50:01 Alyssa
What do you hate about it?
00:50:04 Rachel
It's overstimulating. And because of the way that my schedule is structured, I always have Abel at Nora's practices and that sucks for him because he is coming out of school and really his nervous system needs a break after school and a gym full of middle schoolers and basketballs and whistles is the opposite of what his nervous system needs.
00:50:24 Alyssa
Yeah, that's what I grew up in.
00:50:26 Rachel
Ooh, baby. So I just have to be really on, you know what I mean? And like, it's not just like enough for me to be there watching and hanging out with Abel, like he needs intentional regulation. And that feels tiring to me.
00:50:44 Alyssa
Yeah. Are there spaces for him to go that are not in the gym that are available?
00:50:49 Rachel
Yeah, I'm planning to, like post up in a hallway with him somewhere and read.
00:50:55 Alyssa
Yeah, I did so much of that just like playing in hallways, you know, our four brothers, we all played basketball, we all played soccer. And my winters were spent in a school in a gym. And my oldest brother is eight years older than me. So I have like so many memories of just like, playing in the hallways, like getting kind of like lost in the school. Kelly and I would just get because Kelly's brother played with my brothers, and she was my best friend. And so we would just get lost in the school together. And it was so fun.
00:51:26 Rachel
Yeah, part of me is like, this is good for him. Like, because of his sensory profile, so much of the early years of his life, everything revolved around him, if I'm just being honest. And so now that he's older and I can stretch him a little bit more, I do think it's valuable for him to know that our family rhythms will sometimes focus on Noni. And what her schedule is, and what her interests are. And so there's value in that, right? But it's just like, I'm so needed.
00:51:55 Alyssa
Totally, it's still so hard.
00:51:57 Rachel
Yeah. I'm like, I would love to just sit and watch Nora and not have to talk and regulate and find a place for him to be and he'll likely cry. You know, just those things.
00:52:08 Alyssa
Yeah, sure, sure. We have had a phrase popping up a decent amount in the last probably two months since Beans has been like really crawling and getting into Sagey's spaces and whatever, and where for us, like we need to have eyes on her because she's always in danger. Like climbing stairs, she's falling off of stuff, whatever. And so before I could like set her down and really support him in ways that we can't now. And we have had to say multiple times that Mila is also a part of our family and she's gonna continue to be a part of our family. And sometimes she has all of my attention. Sometimes you have all of my attention. and sometimes my attention is shared between you and her, and here's what that looks like. And just this morning, we had this conversation, Zach was showering, getting ready for work, and I am getting the kids ready for the day, I'm getting Sagey ready for school and breakfast and all that jazz. And Sagey wanted me to push him on the swing, he really just wanted my connection, because he can do the swing himself, he can get the sensory input himself, but he wanted my connection. And Mila thrives on connection from really anybody, but also at that point, I'm the only other one and Sagey did not want to connect with her. And so I'm like between them and had to say, hey buddy, this is a time where you share my attention with Mila and so I can push you and be here with you and talk with you. And I'm gonna have to keep her safe and support her and connect with her too. And it won't be like this all morning when daddy comes out of the shower and is ready, I can give you my attention and he can make sure Mila's safe. But right now I have to do both. And he's disappointed and he'll say like, no, I don't wanna share,
00:54:02 Rachel
Totally.
00:54:03 Alyssa
I'm just like allowing him to be in that disappointment and man, we've been in that quite a bit.
00:54:10 Rachel
Yep.
00:54:10 Alyssa
Quite a bit. Who is this about?
00:54:14 Rachel
Okay, I'm excited about this one. This is Dr. Taylor Day.
00:54:18 Alyssa
On brand for our sensory sensitive humans.
00:54:22 Rachel
Yeah, so on brand. And this is like high -massing autism or like non -traditional presentations.
00:54:29 Alyssa
We wrote about this in the book as well.
00:54:31 Rachel
Yeah. So I think like, okay, you go.
00:54:36 Alyssa
No, I just, you actually, I love what you wrote in the book about this. So I would love for us to go into how we explain it in the book is the difference between masking for neurotypical humans and masking for neurodivergent humans. If you can chat a bit about that.
00:54:57 Rachel
Totally. So I think that one way to look at this is that for neurotypical humans, like I would classify myself as neurotypical, masking is like a social skill. So like, okay, for example, one day I like went to school pickup and I had had a hard day and the secretary was like, Hey, are you okay? And I just started sobbing. And like, I know the secretary, like in passing, she's a wonderful person. But that was like, really inappropriate. And also not what I wanted to do. Like, I didn't want to be sobbing in the secretary's office.
00:55:33 Alyssa
She's maybe not the person to like offload whatever is happening.
00:55:37 Rachel
Also, like, it's dismissal. And she's the secretary. So like, she's busy.
00:55:40 Alyssa
She's not asking for that. She's like, I take back my question. Actually take it back.
00:55:44 Rachel
Never mind, disregard. So in that moment, I was not able to mask, right?
00:55:52 Alyssa
Sure.
00:55:53 Rachel
It would have been more appropriate and frankly, more comfortable for me had I been able to just say like, I'm fine. Thanks for asking. Blah, blah, blah. Right. So example of masking as a social skill. And then for kids who are not neurotypical, masking is more of like a survival skill. So I'm going to use my daughter, Nora, who I have not pursued a formal diagnosis for, but for sure has ADHD. And she is high masking. If you ask her teachers, she is on task, she's quiet, she's a joy to have in the classroom, she's collaborative, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:56:29 Alyssa
She's Zach.
00:56:29 Rachel
Yeah. And she is, she's an incredible human, but the amount of energy that goes into her appearing that way in the classroom is monumental, and it is a survival skill. And what ultimately happens is because her body is working so hard to sit still, keep her face looking forward, not fidget, not talk out of turn, she A. misses a bunch of the academic stuff that's going on, and B. gets home and is so like, it's like, who are you? I don't even know who you are right now. You are out of control in every sense of the word, because she's just done. She's masked all day. She's got nothing left. So for her, that's not a social skill, right?
00:57:17 Alyssa
Yeah. Well, and what we look at here too is how does it show up then in their ability to navigate life? And so I'd wager a guess that when she comes home and it's time to do homework, she doesn't have recall for what she'd done during the day because she probably couldn't take a lot of it in because she was just working on trying sit still and not fidget and look forward and etc. And so I think of this from a, when we're thinking about teachers and classroom settings, what's mind boggling to me is that if we say, like, all right, you have this much capacity and we pull out like a glass, right? And we say, here's the capacity that somebody has. And we say for a neurodivergent human, we are going to look at this and say, okay, every time they have to sit still, they have to sit in this type of seat, they have to wear certain things, they have to look forward, they have to move through a transition where there's a lot of noise, anytime they have to do certain things throughout the day that are really about like compliance from, I would say, an old school space of like, this is just how a human should present in a classroom. Every time they have to do that, if you're pouring water into that glass, it's going to overflow pretty quickly, and then they don't have any capacity left for the academic instruction, for building the social, emotional skills, for the other things we actually want to teach them. And for kids like myself, for a neurotypical human, when you have that same glass, you're not pouring as much water in for me to sit still, for me to navigate a transition, for me to look forward, et cetera. Like my nervous system integrates that sensory stimuli and that information in a different way. And so I just have more capacity then for the academic instruction, for the social emotional skills, and we could both present the same way. We might both be quiet on the surface, you know?
00:59:32 Rachel
This is what I think is so challenging with children who are high masking. It's like, I think about when Nora gets home and we're trying to do a task at home or I'm like, hey, we're doing homework and I'm like, did your teacher explain this or do you have notes on this? And she's like, I don't know. And there's a part of me, you know, from social programming from childhood that's like, okay, well, did you listen at all during, Like, great. Awesome job.
01:00:01 Alyssa
What were you doing? Did you pay attention?
01:00:03 Rachel
Yeah. Right? And because she is so high masking that it's easy to look at the behavior and be like, what the heck are you doing? Come on now. Whereas when I take a minute and think about this rationally and what I know about this child, like, yep, it makes sense that she wasn't able to take that in. But with children who are high masking, I feel like it's so easy to lose sight of that.
01:00:29 Alyssa
Correct. And I think when we are looking at like asking them to do certain things, I think it's incumbent on us as teachers and within school systems to look at what's our actual goal here, right? If I want them to learn these academic skills, great. They have to have these social -emotional skills before they can really navigate that. And before they can navigate the social -emotional skills, they have to have skills for regulation and awareness, which means they need to be in an environment that allows for regulation. Otherwise, you're not meeting your top goal of academic instruction, because all of their effort is going to go into just trying to feel regulated in that space. And I guess it's just hard for me to wrap my head around for teachers in schools of like, why wouldn't we want to focus on regulation first and say, like, yeah, let's look at everybody's nervous system and understand what's going to be most helpful for them. And that's the work that I'm so grateful we have the privilege of doing with schools. And we're doing so much of it now in the kindergarten to fifth grade space, where we get to look at how do we, if your goal is academic instruction, how do we create sensory and emotionally friendly and supportive spaces so that your kids can actually do that? So you're not spending your time saying, oh, eyes on me, or it's getting too loud, or I see a lot of bodies wiggling, let's hold still, or we're going to walk quietly in the line in the hallway. You're going to spend so much time trying to do that. And at the end of the day, it doesn't meet your actual goal. And so I feel grateful that we get to support schools and teachers with this work. And I wonder if it's just a lack of other programs out there that are able to support them, right? Like there's such a focus on say PBIS, positive behavior intervention support, something like that. And really what they're doing there is rewarding certain behavior, which Nora's gonna get rewarded. She is going to present as a high masking neurodivergent individual as compliant and calm and regulated. And actually inside she's anything but.
01:02:50 Rachel
Correct. And the reward system actually just compounds her anxiety because on the other side of rewards are punishment. And so she's like, if I drop this mask, I'm going to get punished.
01:03:02 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. You know? And so we're not meeting that end goal of actually helping them learn. And this isn't something that's new. It's not new to our kids now. I don't remember if I talked about this in the episode, but if not, I'll share it here anyway, about Zach and that when he was in like kindergarten, first grade, he wasn't ever eating at school and they were trying to figure out why. And my mother -in -law went in, she was like, can I just like come and observe and see what's going on? Came into lunch and she was like, oh yeah, because this cafeteria is so loud. And he literally could not eat at school because the environment was too loud for him. And y 'all, that was early nineties, right? Like this isn't new. No, we are just now looking at children as humans and not just saying like, no, you need to be compliant and do these things and everybody can do them. And at the end of the day, we're going to serve more neurotypical humans are going to be supported through this as well.
01:04:05 Rachel
Absolutely. It makes me think of the triangle of growth. I'm so grateful for what we're doing with the Seed Cert because, you know, as you're talking about this immediately, I'm thinking like the triangle of growth and all of these resources that are in Tiny Humans Big Emotions are in the Seed Cert and feel so second nature at this point to me. And the reality is that there are so many parents and caregivers and teachers who need this information because it will make their lives easier.
01:04:32 Alyssa
Correct. Yeah. I just got to spend a week in a public school working with their elementary classrooms and teachers and our sole focus right now because they had all these huge behaviors and I'm we're talking huge, challenging behaviors with high ACEs, a lot of trauma. It's not a casual, easy environment to be in. And our sole focus, first and foremost, is sensory supportive classrooms. That if we can't start there, yeah, we can't support regulation. You're gonna continue to turn to your behavior support team. And I just think that it is, it's just, I hope that there continues to be this culture shift because it's also the teacher's lives who are made easier in the end. Like when we can create an environment where all kids can thrive, you're not gonna spend so much time with challenging behaviors.
01:05:31 Rachel
100%. This reminds me of a conversation that I had. Nora was in preschool and we were having like a conference with her teacher. And her teacher was like kind of apologetic in the conference about like, they hadn't been doing a ton of letter and number stuff, and they were focusing on emotional reg and navigating social conflict. And you were like,
01:05:52 Alyssa
We're out of here.
01:05:54 Rachel
I was like, I literally, that's why Nora is in preschool right now, because these are skills that I want her to have outside of her relationship with me and her dad. And at this point, I literally do not care about the academics. And the relief on the teacher's face was visceral. And I want, I want the culture shift, not just for teachers, but also for parents to be like, yeah, at that age, I don't give a flying care about letters. I really don't.
01:06:24 Alyssa
Frankly at any age, because if what we're seeing are these challenging behaviors and dysregulation.
01:06:30 Rachel
They're not learning anyway.
01:06:31 Alyssa
They're not learning anyway. And so if we can teach them, they're not learning academics, right? And I think there needs to be a shift from like, that teaching is academia and realize that teaching is all of it. You're teaching them skills for life. And if they have these life skills, then teaching the academia is so much easier. I would say that Big Kids Bigger Feelings is written in a way where like, teachers can get so much out of it. We've heard that also from Tiny Humans Big Emotions.
01:07:03 Rachel
I agree.
01:07:03 Alyssa
We're like, and there's even like, there's a whole section on like schools. This is what we got to focus on for this to work.
01:07:10 Rachel
I just want this information to be everywhere. I want it to be in like, when people are getting their degree.
01:07:16 Alyssa
This is the problem with this, Rachel. We always keep going younger and younger, where then it's like, I find myself being like, why aren't we teaching this in high school to kids about being humans, right? And then I'm like, wait, why wait until high school? Let's be teaching this in kindergarten. But then it's like, who's teaching the people who are teaching this?
01:07:34 Rachel
I know, it's like a...
01:07:37 Alyssa
Yeah, it's a cycle here. We're getting in there, we're getting in there. And now really branching out, we focused on early childhood for so long and now branching out into that K -5 space really from a demand where all these public preschool programs that we were supporting were like, hi, this is working so well, can you please come into our kindergarten in our first grade, in our second grade? And so yeah, I'm really excited and so jazzed for this next book. Same thing, Tiny Emotions Big Emotions published and people were like, I love this, need the edition for my nine -year -old, need the edition for the next age up. So super jazzed, we will continue to listen to folks and try and give the people what they want.
01:08:20 Rachel
Yeah, we will, I know we will.
01:08:22 Alyssa
Forever. Excited to get Big Kids Bigger Feelings out there for folks to have this resource, teachers and parents alike.
01:08:29 Rachel
And anybody who's interacting with school -age children, really, grandparents.
01:08:35 Alyssa
Exactly, exactly, love. And I said this in this episode, but my dream world is that instead of looking at like, how are we serving neurodivergent humans? How are we serving neurotypical humans? That we are looking at how does everybody's nervous system work and what are we doing to support them in self -awareness and regulation so that they can access any of the rest of it. And when we can start there, which is what we now are doing with schools and being able to support them with sensory questionnaires and sensory profiles and understanding how the environment impacts regulation and all that jazz, it's just such a game changer and it's my dream world that that's how we're operating instead of, oh yeah, everybody sits in these chairs and does this thing except for this kid who gets this seat. Because they've had enough challenging behaviors that now we're trying out this seat for them. I'm like, no, what if as kids were coming into classrooms, you understood how their unique nervous system worked because we had a tool available for you to understand that.
01:09:42 Rachel
And if it was just the culture of the classroom, which we outline examples of what that can look like for both parents and teachers in Big Kids Bigger Feelings.
01:09:53 Alyssa
Yeah, and it's so much of the like consulting work we're doing with schools now. And I am jazzed, I do feel like there's a push in this direction and it was fun to get to chat with Dr. Taylor Day and talk about high masking and kind of the misconceptions because she's often hearing from the parent lens, right? She's hearing a parent's experience and thus a kid's experience, but not necessarily hearing the like, what's the teacher's experience? How do we make these shifts in schools? And she probably gets a lot of pushback and they probably get a lot of pushback. So I'm jazzed that we get to kind of like team up with folks who are doing this work in these spaces as well and see how we can continue to provide support. Thank you for writing this part of the book and sharing about it and sharing Nora's example here. I think it's really helpful to understand how this represents and what it looks like. And I love you.
01:10:52 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
Connect with Dr. Taylor Day:
Instagram: @the.dr.tay
Website: drtaylorday.com
Podcast: EVOLVE with Dr. Tay | the podcast for parents of autistic kids
Alyssa’s episode on Evolve: Building inclusive and sensory-friendly classrooms to promote regulation and learning
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