The Black Side of Autism with Maria Davis-Pierre, LMHC
00:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village. And today, I got to hang out with Maria Davis-Pierre to chat about Black families who are navigating autism diagnoses and what that Black side of autism looks like, both within the Black community and outside of the Black community. Maria graduated from Florida State University with a Bachelor's of Science in Sociology and went on to obtain a Master's of Science in Mental Health Counseling from Nova Southeastern University. As a licensed mental health therapist, Maria primarily works with Black parents to provide support through education and advocacy training. Her passion for working in the field stems from her personal journey when her daughter received the diagnosis at a very early age. In addition to therapy, Maria dons many other titles, including coach, speaker, advocate, and author. Her first published work, a Self Care Affirmation Journal, is currently available for purchase on Amazon. Maria's unique approach to coaching and counseling exemplifies her drive and motivation toward greater acceptance and overcoming the barriers and personal struggles associated with raising a Black autistic child. I could have hung out with Maria for a long time. I love her. We got to chat about things that we need to be mindful of within our systems to support Black children across the board and especially our Black autistic children. I'm so grateful for her work and for her dedication to this work. You'll hear she is a fierce advocate and I love it. I hope you all go out and snag her Self Care Affirmation Journal so you can start doing this work of self -awareness and diving into our own jazz so that we can show up for these tiny humans and do the other work, the outside of us work. If this podcast is serving you, If you are finding support within it or you're learning and growing from it, please take a minute to rate and review. It helps us reach other folks who are yearning for this information and looking for a place to connect and dive deeper. Thank you so much. Y 'all are the best. I love this village. All right, folks, let's dive in.
00:02:20 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask -Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:02:42 Alyssa
Well, I am super jazzed to get to hang out and chat about autism in the Black community specifically and I'm excited to learn today. I am curious kind of what led you, at what point you found out about different diagnoses you have and then what led you into this space to be like, hey, we got to chat more about this.
00:03:06 Maria
So I'm late diagnosed. I got my diagnosis three years ago. I started Autism In Black actually based off of our experience with our daughter.
00:03:19 Alyssa
Okay.
00:03:21 Maria
Yes. It was a, it was a really traumatic, now that I look back at it--it was a traumatic experience of going through that diagnosis process with her. So our oldest, Malia, she's 11 now, but she got her diagnosis at 18 months officially.
00:03:40 Alyssa
Wow.
00:03:41 Maria
Yeah.
00:03:41 Alyssa
That's young for an autism diagnosis.
00:03:43 Maria
It's very young, but when you look at the stuff we went through, I think that's what made it traumatic. So I am a licensed clinician. I'm a licensed mental health counselor in Florida. My husband is a physician, he's an internal medicine physician here. And at about six months, I did notice characteristics with my daughter. I told my husband, he was like, leave that with your clients, don't bring that over here. I let it go, but at 10 months, she actually regressed in her speech. And then I knew I said, okay, we got to get the ball rolling here. And I started with our pediatrician and she was, you know, not wanting to give me a referral. Then we got a referral and went to Early Steps, and they agreed, they said, you know, we do think she is autistic, but we think she's, it's too early. We can't really give her the diagnosis. They sent us to pediatric neurologists. It's hard to find, you know, somebody who specializes in pediatric neurology. But we did find that one person, he did an MRI brain scan where she had to be put to sleep. He did all kinds of genetic testing. One test cost us $1 ,000. Yeah, so we are going through all of this stuff and he's like, oh yeah, she's definitely autistic, but I just want to wait a year and a half, you know, just until she's three before we give her the diagnosis.
00:05:09 Alyssa
Maria, the wait part of this is, I get fired up about it. This is one of my biggest pet peeves in early childhood, when we're like, yeah, we're seeing all these things. And even now, like, yeah, we know this and we're going to wait, why? We know too much about brain development to wait.
00:05:27 Maria
Exactly. Especially when we say early intervention matters and our studies show us that after three, there's no longer that early intervention. So why are you wanting me to wait until after that phase? And at that point, as a clinician and as a parent, I was just frustrated. So I actually boycotted in his office for five days from the time he opened to the time he closed that office.
00:05:53 Alyssa
I love you.
00:05:56 Maria
Yeah, it took five days. He was not happy. He didn't take me seriously at first, but then he started going to the back door to get in his office. Me and his receptionist got really close, bringing each other coffee. She was cheering me on privately. Then day five, he got tired of me talking to people in his waiting room, and he just handed me the paperwork. He said, here, here you go. And that started the journey of Autism in Black, because it was like, if this is so hard for us with the education and the resources, financial resources, what would it be like for people in our community who don't have this?
00:06:34 Alyssa
A hundred percent.
00:06:35 Maria
Yeah, so that started Autism in Black.
00:06:38 Alyssa
You're such a fierce advocate, and I love this. Not shocking, I feel like Black women get shit done, historically have had to, right? Like that is a part of history, a part of present. And I'm curious, once you got the diagnosis and he handed that over, how things shifted and what was available resource -wise? Because I feel like because we don't often have good enough early screenings, in fact, one of my good friends, Dr. Sarabeth Broder -Fingert, I would love to connect y 'all. She does research in autism in Massachusetts and her work is really focused on improving early screenings. That's what her research has been based around. And I think y 'all would be a great connection, but she has really like opened my eyes to this of, yeah, we don't have clinicians who are trained and doctors who are trained to access early identification because they don't know what they're looking for.
00:07:43 Maria
My husband and I have this conversation, and I have big beef with his medical community. And I tell him, because I mean, he will tell you, he's like, I learned everything from, he's learned it from me. You know, he's like, we're not taught to be so early on. All the research says at that time, you know, after five, after five, he was like, you know, even in the beginning, he was like, well, maybe we should wait. I was like, we're not waiting. We're not waiting. So yeah, the screening process, and I tell him all the time, I think it has to do with the egos of doctors not wanting to be wrong about something. But if we're in this limbo and we can't do anything, then that is just going to make it worse. But after we got the paperwork, my colleagues started coming in the house and they were not realizing that we were Black people. And they were just doing textbook interventions and it was not vibing well with us as a Black household. And then we became a problem client and they were like, nope, it's not the interventions, it's you guys that.
00:08:47 Alyssa
Okay, break this down. Talk to me about what you were seeing and what it means that like it wasn't vibing with y 'all.
00:08:53 Maria
So some of the interventions were just not culturally responsive. You're bringing in tools that we can't relate to. Something as simple as a hairbrush and not having different types of hairbrushes, you know, for children, especially knowing my daughter's like, I don't know what, this doesn't look like something that we use here. Having pictures of children and none of them being Black, all of them being white children with blonde hair and blue eyes. She can't see herself in that, so she can't relate. She's not seeing that. And then just culturally not understanding how to, as we would say now, to read the room and understand when you're coming into someone's home, it's a different culture, so things that you may be accustomed to and used to as Black people, we're like, no, you know, please don't.
00:09:50 Alyssa
Sure. It's interesting in general to think about that from like a home visitor perspective and as folks from Early Intervention are coming in, that they're coming in with their cultural bias, right, always, no matter who they are, they're going to come in with their cultural bias in their cultural lens, and how critical it is for folks to even just start by being aware of that, step one, like that's true. And even if you're on a learning path of like, and I don't know what is culturally respectful within this culture, within this home that I'm going into, starting with the realization that you don't know that yet.
00:10:32 Maria
Exactly, just ask.
00:10:35 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:10:35 Maria
Having your paperwork, I mean, anything is better than you're just coming in with your biases and attempting to treat us all cookie cutter -like because we're not the same, you know, you have to know as any kind of healthcare provider that you should be adjusting to your clients. I think that is not taught in schools. At least I know I wasn't taught that. And I could talk about the people who were in my program were not taught that, you know. historically you get one culturally competent class and you're expect to be competent. I'm a Black woman and I'm not competent in all things Black women. So to even think that is just baffling to me.
00:11:17 Alyssa
Yeah, I agree. I also, you've mentioned the like ego part of doctors and it's so interesting. So it's like, what's the worst that happens? This kid gets services and support? Like that's the worst that happens? And then you were wrong about the diagnosis. Like, let's, let's roll those dice.
00:11:35 Maria
Mm -hmm. I'll take putting speech therapy and OT over nothing. I mean, at this point, waiting a year and a half, I'm like, that's excessive. And especially when we're all agreeing, you've done all the tests that didn't need to be done, especially these genetics testing, which we would have known by her age what he was testing for if she had these genetic disorders. And it was just like, this is just at this point, I understand ruleout, but now it's excessive.
00:12:06 Alyssa
Yeah, for sure. I am wondering if you can share more about what you've learned in terms of looking at autism with a cultural perspective and, you know, you shared about as folks are coming in service -wise, how that was showing up, wondering, like, are there ways in which in different cultures or communities autism presents or shows up differently based off of cultural norms?
00:12:32 Maria
What I always explain to people as a clinician, we use the DSM, that that's our, it's like people say it's the Bible for us clinicians and we use it and the DSM is not fit for Black people. It's not.
00:12:45 Alyssa
The DSM is a lot, a lot of problems going on and not fit for Black people is one of them, but it's got a lot of problems.
00:12:52 Maria
It's got a lot of issues, it's not fit for women. Historically, when we're looking at how they have categorized autism, the studies have been on white males. I'm not a white male. My daughter is not a white male. So we are not going to present with those characteristics. So oftentimes I tell people, we just don't present DSM, textbook, classic. These are the characteristics. And then in the fact that Black people have to code -switch, there's masking just for safety reasons of navigating society, I may go into a healthcare provider's office and it's going to take time for me to, one, get comfortable, and you have to see past what I'm telling you and go beneath the surface to figure out what's really going on. And that's just, it seems like extra work as a provider, but knowing how Black people have to navigate society, it's really imperative that it's done because a lot of times we're going in and we're getting misdiagnosed with stuff. As a late diagnosed autistic adult, I had several diagnosis before I got my autism diagnosis. So it's just a part of the game.
00:14:05 Alyssa
Yeah, and I wonder what those rates look like in females and then furthermore in Black females, right? Like, I think it's true in females across the board that we're often seeing late diagnosis or misdiagnoses and then just compounded for Black women.
00:14:23 Maria
Mm -hmm. It is. And, you know, I'm very interested in the studies, but the studies are not out there when it comes to the intersectionality of being a Black woman or a Black femme presenting and being autistic. There is one study that is out there that was done in 2022. And I think overall, in the past 60, 70, 80 years, three studies total that have been done. So the information isn't out there, and what they have called it is being intersectional invisible. They don't care to research this and understand how it is for us. So yeah, it's a lot of work needs to be done.
00:15:04 Alyssa
It's just so infuriating to just be like, oh, you actually don't matter here. We're just gonna not, what a frustrating message. Is there stigma? I feel like with autism in general, there's stigma that I think, I feel like has been starting to shift. I think especially as we've expanded like this spectrum discussion of more folks are getting diagnosed with ADHD And there's, I think it's becoming more, I don't know about commonplace, but it's not like, oh, there's this one kid in my school who has ADHD, right? And so I think with more exposure and diagnosis across the spectrum, there's more inclusivity, I hope, but also just more, I guess, understanding. I'm wondering if we've reached that also within autism, specifically, and then looking at like, what does that look like for white folks versus for Black folks? I mean, definitely from a safety perspective, but also looking at the stigma within the Black community.
00:16:15 Maria
Yeah, I would say there's definitely a progressive movement within the white autistic community about getting past awareness and getting to acceptance and inclusivity. In the Black community, we're still behind. I mean, studies show it. The research shows it. There's still people not coming into our communities. There's still that gap for us. So we are still at the awareness stage for a lot of us because people don't know. They just don't know what autism is. And it seems scary to them because they don't have the knowledge to know. And then they're saying, oh, autism. And it's like, oh, no, I don't even want to hear that because I don't know what that means. So there's a pretty big gap still in our community when it comes to autism and what that means and what that looks like and is their representation.
00:17:11 Alyssa
Can we dive into this a little bit? I'm wondering if there's like it's already hard enough to be Black in America, if there's a fear around like, this is gonna make it even harder to be Black in America. And so if we are just like, nope, no autism here, maybe it won't exist and we won't have to navigate this next level of hard.
00:17:35 Maria
It is, I say there is in the Black community, we have to deal with the stigma of how people view us outside of our community. And then there's us in our community and how we view it. I definitely think that because the knowledge is not there, it's like the boogeyman. Like what's that mean for my child who already has to grow up being a Black adult in this world? I know what that's like. I don't even feel safe walking outside my door of knowing if I'm gonna come back. You know, so now I'm adding in another piece that they have to deal with and identify with and how do we navigate that? It can be extremely scary to have to deal with that. So denial comes into play. Or in my case, some parents wouldn't have even went that far to get the diagnosis. They would've been like, fine, you don't think it, I'm fine with that. It's a lot. It's like peeling back layers of an onion and it can make you cry.
00:18:31 Alyssa
Absolutely. And I think that the fear makes sense, right? Of like, if I don't feel safe leaving the house as a Black woman or a Black person, and then we add these other layers onto it because it's not just how do I feel, but how's the world gonna perceive me or perceive my child? And what does that mean about the likelihood of me walking back in that door?
00:18:53 Maria
Exactly. With my daughter and her getting her diagnosis, with me being a female, I did have fears and things, but as a female, I'm like, okay, I can help her. When my son got his diagnosis, I had a completely different reaction. And I had a just, I don't know what to do with this. I am scared. What does this mean for him? Because I know how Black males, Black men are perceived in society. And to me, it was like, okay, now this is even more scarier for me. So I had two different reactions with my own children.
00:19:29 Alyssa
Sure.
00:19:30 Maria
So yeah, it's a real valid fear that we have.
00:19:34 Alyssa
A hundred percent. Yeah, that makes sense. What tools and resources have you found that have been really helpful in getting your kiddos the support that they need both in life and in school systems?
00:19:50 Maria
One is advocating hard. I think that...
00:19:53 Alyssa
How exhausting.
00:19:54 Maria
It's very exhausting. Any parent who has a child with a disability knows that we have to advocate extremely hard. But add in the intersectional pieces and it's even harder because most oftentimes people are judging me as a Black woman and they're like, oh, here comes the angry Black woman. Anything that I am saying in defense of my children and trying to advocate for my children is met with, oh, why you have to be so angry? I'm just talking in this tone. How is it angry? I'm advocating for my children. I'm justified in being angry if I wanted to because you're making me jump through these hoops, but I'm not, you know. So I think understanding that the fierce advocates we have to be for our children. So advocating hard for my children have been extremely important. Also educating those who are providing services to my children. Understanding that you're not gonna adultify my children. We're going to understand that they are their age, that they have a disability, if you are trying to have unrealistic goals, I'm going to have to let you know those things. So educating providers and making sure that they are culturally responsive, that they understand you have to have different treatment approaches for us as Black people because of that intersectionality piece. You know, so those are just the basis of what it starts with when advocating for Black children and yourself.
00:21:25 Alyssa
So exhausting and infuriating and the fact that you were like, I'm not angry. I'm like, how? How are you not angry? It would make all the sense to be angry. I am curious, you know, your husband was hesitant with the diagnosis at first and not wanting to pursue it after you received the diagnosis. Well, I'm curious what it looked like as you were fighting those five days and boycotting in that office. And then once you got that diagnosis, what that's been like for y 'all together to navigate this.
00:22:03 Maria
So my husband actually got on board before the pediatric neurologist. Once I spoke with the Early Steps team, it's different in every state, but it's for those children who are younger than three. Once I told him what they were saying, then he was like, okay, well, what's next? What do we have to do?
00:22:22 Alyssa
Got it.
00:22:23 Maria
So he was completely supportive of me boycotting in the office. He was driving me there. He was completely supportive of having to do what needs to be done. I think a lot of times in healthcare provider offices, they look to him because he is a physician.
00:22:43 Alyssa
And a male.
00:22:44 Maria
Exactly. And him like, nope, she's the expert. Talk to her. He directs them to me. So his, his support has always been, you know, imperative in what we do. We work as a team. So he's been there since, you know, going from early steps on. So he's a huge part in what we do. He's, you know, always there for moral support. He is the more calm one out of the two of us. So he's there to be like, okay, well, let's try a different way here. And you don't want to go in there and knock everything off these people.
00:23:20 Alyssa
He's like, and I know who I married and you're going to get to this office either way, so I'll drive you.
00:23:25 Maria
He's like, I don't know why you guys are fearing me. She's the one you need to worry about.
00:23:32 Alyssa
Oh, that's relatable in my marriage as well. I married a very even human. He's super calm and I'm the fiery one over here.
00:23:44 Maria
I'm like, I don't, I'm like, why aren't you upset? You'd be like, well, let's just figure it out. No, let's go in there and knock the stuff off the deck.
00:23:52 Alyssa
Totally, totally. That makes sense to me, man. When you're looking at your son then, so you had this experience with your daughter as you started to see early signs in your son, what did that process look like, having, given what you'd already experienced?
00:24:10 Maria
It was completely different. So my son is a twin. And we have a daughter, so another daughter, so he's a twin, and they are completely different. And he's just completely different from most everybody in this house. For me, he had a lot of sensory seeking. So I couldn't even think autism because I was just like, oh my God, this boy is going to hurt himself really badly. So I was thinking more sensory processing disorder with him because he was doing things like jumping off the flight of the stairs from the top banister, constantly eloping, just all kinds of things that were just scary to me. So I wasn't even thinking autism. I was like, we need this boy has sensory processing disorder. We need to get somebody in here and OT. But it was actually the school psychologist at his elementary who was like, have we thought about autism? I was like, no, we haven't. And then I started to look at everything as a whole, but then COVID started and it slowed down the process on everything with him in the school system. So we actually got him a medical diagnosis of autism and ADHD, but in the school system, by the time that they got back to doing evaluations and things of that nature, he had so many coping skills and stuff. He was a completely different child that he didn't qualifiy for autism category in school. So an IEP, but it's not under autism category.
00:25:47 Alyssa
Yeah, I mean, rad. This like speaks so much to the early intervention piece too, of like when we do this diagnosis and we get human supports for their nervous system and for the way that they process the world to be able to thrive, they can build these skills and build coping skills. And I think his case then speaks just so much to that of like, yeah, had this diagnosis that was coming from the school, the push, and then fast forward to him getting supports and services. He doesn't even qualify for the autism diagnosis at school.
00:26:22 Maria
Exactly. Exactly. And they still fiercely advocate for him, make sure he has what he needs because they do know that he's autistic and has ADHD. So they make sure that his IEP has all the supports that he needs, but yeah, he is a different kid that we see now, now that he has the right supports. I couldn't even imagine if he got in that EBD category or if he had a team who wasn't supportive and had the wrong trajectory, what it would look like, because it happens so often for Black children.
00:26:51 Alyssa
A hundred percent, that's what I was gonna say next is that there's such a discussion, at least here in Vermont, but I think throughout the country right now on preschool expulsion and suspension and looking at the data and what do we do and all that jazz and when you look at the data overwhelmingly preschoolers it's three and four -year -olds who are Black, and especially if they're Black boys. And we know the preschool to prison pipeline right like it is set up for these kids to fail in the school system and so as I'm like they've had these awesome supports and great sensory supports, all that jazz, I am wondering what your message to educators would be when we're looking, especially in, you know, so much of our work is in preschool, pre -K, kindergarten one, two, looking at that age range, that early childhood age range. What would your message to educators be about Black children?
00:27:51 Maria
Oh, this is a great question, because it wasn't always that way with my son. When he was in pre -K, he had a teacher who was adultifying him and was trying to put him on the wrong path. It was his kindergarten teacher who really changed the game for him, and she's now his third grade teacher.
00:28:14 Alyssa
Oh, awesome.
00:28:16 Maria
Yeah. I love her too. She's part of the family. My message is that you really have to check those biases and understand that children are children to have the expectation that, because what we're seeing is that, and people are always baffled when we say it's preschoolers, three -year -old and four -year -olds who are getting these expulsions, and they're for subjective things, like, oh, you're being sassy. Oh, I don't like the way that your hair is growing out of your head today. Like, things of that nature that these children are being suspended for, and it's like you have to be able to check your biases. You have to be able to understand what adultification of Black children is, because a lot of times you're holding them to these standards that they're not going to reach because they are three and four -year -olds.
00:29:02 Alyssa
It's not developmentally appropriate for them to reach.
00:29:04 Maria
Exactly. You're talking about, oh, sit down, and you should be able to sit for eight hours. I am 40, and I cannot sit for eight hours without moving. Impossible. So thinking that someone whose brain isn't even fully developed, and they're three, that they're just going to sit for eight hours is just -
00:29:22 Alyssa
I mean, a three -year -old sitting for 30 minutes is too long.
00:29:26 Maria
I mean, I'm like, I don't know where these three -year -olds that they're hanging out with are, but I've never seen them. Never.
00:29:35 Alyssa
Like everyone's failing this test.
00:29:37 Maria
Yeah.
00:29:37 Alyssa
Maybe it's the test.
00:29:39 Maria
I am failing this test. I would not be able to do it. So just being aware of it and understanding that, you know, because there's a switch that happens in some teachers brains of seeing that little Black boy in particular as cute to now, oh, a menace, he's scary. And it happens at that three and four year old stage. And understanding that you have to check those biases. We all have biases and you have to check them. Don't be, oh, I don't want to tell people about this. No, you need to check it because it really changes the trajectory of that child. For the evaluators that are in the school system, really go beyond that surface of what you're seeing because when we're placing these children in that emotionally behavior disturbed category, so much in the statistics show how much you're placing Black children in this category, that trajectory changes for us as well. So be mindful of those things because it's so important and understand that you too, as an educator, have to advocate differently for the Black children than the white children and understanding that and helping us out with that because the kindergarten teacher that we have, now third grade, how she advocates for my son in that room, I oftentimes, I don't even get to say anything because she is like, nope, this is what we're doing, this is what he needs, and this is how we're going about it. So just having that kind of support system, also as a parent, makes me feel good.
00:31:11 Alyssa
Yeah, and it's about time you get a little break there for a hot second of educating. A colleague and I co -created, it's called the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method, the CEP method for building emotional intelligence in kids. And it's what all of our work's based on, it's what my book's based on, and it's five components. One's adult -child interactions, the other four are about us. And one of the four about us is bias. And that like, man, we can't do any of this work if we don't have self -awareness, which is one of the other ones, and then awareness of our biases in particular, and specifically those implicit biases. Whether it's the age bias of they're three, they're four, they should be able to do this, or they're five, they're six, they shouldn't be crying anymore, whatever that is. Or it's racial bias or the intersectionality of that age and racial bias. And I am so glad that that was your message to folks, because I think over and over, as I have the privilege of getting to work with thousands of teachers in the U .S. and Canada through our SEED certification school program, and over and over and over, what we're diving into with them is, what's coming up for you? What are you noticing? Because we can't talk about this kid and how to interact with and engage with this kid without talking about you. And I think so many of us didn't get the tools for self -awareness and to notice our biases, to build awareness of our own experience culturally, socially, to start to dive into that work. And so we're finding so much of our work focuses on the adult because we didn't get these tools when we were younger.
00:32:53 Maria
I think a lot of people don't see children as individuals, and that is a lot of the work that has to be done because they just, especially in the Black community, come along with it. So yeah, it has to be done. You have to have that, be able to self -reflect what is coming up for you on this little human.
00:33:17 Alyssa
Exactly. Exactly. And I just like hate that emotionally disturbed is even like a category that gets into because we know the behavior is always a communication of a need, right? And so anytime we're seeing a behavior on the surface, I'm like, what's that sensory need? What's the need for connection, inclusion, belonging? How do we meet those needs? And I bet we see that behavior go away when those needs are met.
00:33:42 Maria
Exactly. I think it's a throwaway category personally. I don't, it's not even in the DSM. I don't know what you would...
00:33:50 Alyssa
Yeah, there's like a lazy response. It's like the term colic, where I'm like, I can't. Like, okay, so you're just saying you don't know why this baby's crying? Like...
00:33:58 Maria
What, what, what are we doing here? I don't like it at all. I don't, I, especially for Black children, because that is the majority of who are, who was in this category. And then knowing that, how those in that category are taught, the resources that they're given, the support that they're given, it's not anything that they're doing in there. It's a throwaway category. If you took just a little bit more time to investigate what was going on, they would fit one of the other categories by and far, and they could get the support that they needed. So I don't like that category at all, at all.
00:34:36 Alyssa
Agreed, agreed. And I think there's no way someone can be placed into that category without an integrative occupational therapy assessment first. You tell me you've done this like OT assessment first and we're accounting for their nervous system with an OT who has that integrative lens, then we can continue to talk. I doubt people make it through that and then end up still in this category.
00:35:00 Maria
Exactly. Exactly. I have a lot of issues with the school system.
00:35:05 Alyssa
Yeah, I'm sure. It's designed for one type of human, you know? And this is another thing I'm super jazzed. I feel like there's more conversation about. definitely now than when I was a kid. What does it look like to support, I wouldn't say all humans yet, but more humans and hopefully we get to all at some point here.
00:35:23 Maria
I agree. And you know, I tell educators all the time, I know that you're working in a system that is failing you too. And it's hard and it's truly the system that is failing, the education system that is failing children, the parents, and the educators, because it's just not meant for success for a lot of children.
00:35:46 Alyssa
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then teachers end up in a role where they aren't getting to do the thing that they were so excited to come and do.
00:35:56 Maria
Exactly. Exactly. I mean, no wonder there is a teacher shortage.
00:35:59 Alyssa
Yeah, 100%. I left. Maria, I'm super jazzed about your Self Care Affirmation Journal: 52 Self Care Affirmations to Reconnect with Yourself and Develop a Healthy Mindset currently available for purchase on Amazon. Can you speak to what people might find in there and how it can serve them?
00:36:16 Maria
Yes. So I created that because I think that a lot of people have the wrong idea of what self -care is. We see on social media and people are like, oh, I'm on vacation. I'm on the beach, I've got a MaiTai, I'm doing those things, and while that is self -care, it's not a realistic form of self -care for everybody. And as a clinician, I try to tell people all the time that self -care is truly about being intentional with yourself. So what are you feeling? What are you experiencing? And going from it that way, if you can have five intentional minutes with yourself a day focusing on your body and what it's telling you and speaking into that body, it can change, you know, how what you're experiencing in your day. If I know that oh my body is feeling a little tense, I know I'm about to get upset, and how you can then implement some coping skills into that, it can change a lot. So that's really what the Self Care Affirmation book is about. It can be done in 52 weeks, you could take it through a year, or you can, you know, go about it daily, but it's really experiencing and coming to terms with who you are, what you need, and what works for you in developing a self -care plan for yourself.
00:37:34 Alyssa
I love it so much. We talk a lot about self -control, that I want to use this tone, or use these words, or show up with this behavior, etc. And we can't access self -control without regulation, and you can't regulate what you're not aware of. And so what you just listed there, it's so in alignment with our work of like whether we're working with kids or we're working with ourselves, it starts with awareness and being able to notice in that reflective practice piece that a journal can bring where we're not in the moment, we're outside of it, we can reflect back, we can start to build awareness of how things feel in our body, our patterns, our trends, our habits, in order to access regulation and control. I love this. Thank you so much for creating that resource. Where can folks find to learn more about ya, all that jazz.
00:38:25 Maria
You can go right to our website, autisminblack.org. It has links to everything that we do, all of our shops, all of our conferences, podcasts, how to connect with me. The most active social media platform that I'm on is Instagram, and that's Autism in Black. But I am on all of the others. So yeah, just one of those ways.
00:38:48 Alyssa
Awesome. I love it so much. Thank you so much for doing this work and being a fierce advocate.
[Music]
00:38:58 Alyssa
I, the other day was like mid podcast interview and I have a mic stand that was like a stand from the ground that has like an arm that comes in. And all of a sudden the arm just like gives out and my mic just, just dropped to the ground.
00:39:14 Rachel
I saw that.
00:39:15 Alyssa
And I was like, hey, let me just try and pull that back up. And I literally had to hold-- the arm broke. There is no tightening it for it to stay anymore. So the rest of the interview, I'm like holding the mic, but it's connected to a stand. It's so awkward. So I have a new stand.
00:39:32 Rachel
Okay. Well, let's hope that it's better luck with this stand.
00:39:38 Alyssa
Legit. Woo. How are you?
00:39:41 Rachel
I got picked for a moose permit, which is like a big effing deal...
00:39:44 Alyssa
You did???
00:39:46 Rachel
I did. Yeah.
00:39:47 Alyssa
Your family is the luckiest family.
00:39:50 Rachel
I know. So I have to take a hunter safety course, and that's literally the most boring thing I've ever had to do for a couple of reasons. I've been so immersed in hunter safety culture my whole life, because my dad obviously is a serious dude, always taught us all the safety stuff, plus Cody. And there's a time minimum on these pages. So I'm just spending so much time just letting the timer go down before I can answer the questions. So dumb.
00:40:16 Alyssa
Also, you're the fastest reader ever. So you're like done. And also, can we please include this? Please.
00:40:23 Rachel
Okay, fine. So my dream is to provide a large amount of food for my family that is like healthy and sustainable and ethical. So if I can take a moose, that's like three years worth of meat for us. I have to be honest, like I feel a total badass if I can actually do this.
00:40:46 Alyssa
Yeah, that's so cool. Do you know how to kill a moose?
00:40:49 Rachel
No, but luckily Cody does. We were up at, where were we when he found out that I got picked? I don't know. We were somewhere and he came up to me and he's like, I'm so stressed. You got picked for moose permit. I'm like, oh, why are you stressed? Isn't that what you wanted? And he was like, yeah, but now you have to take the hunter safety course and I have to teach you how to do all of it. Like, yep, you sure do. So no, I don't know how to kill a moose, but I do know how to shoot and I'm a pretty good shot, so I think once Cody figures out what the right firearm is for me and I practice with it, I think it'll be fine. He seems pretty confident that I'll be able to take one, so I'm just hoping for the best.
00:41:27 Alyssa
Is that what they say? Is it the lingo you take a moose?
00:41:30 Rachel
I mean, yeah.
00:41:32 Alyssa
Okay, cool. Good to know. I feel like I need to learn new moose lingo so I can really hang through this process.
00:41:37 Rachel
Well, the other thing too is you have to find one, obviously. So we'll go up. So my permit is for October, so we'll go up probably end of August and scout for two days in the zone where I have a permit. And that's really key, is scouting, going up and seeing where they're hanging out, where there's moose sign, and then that's where we'll plan to start our hunt.
00:42:01 Alyssa
Okay. So just for the listener, because I've been introduced to this moose situation because of Cody getting picked.
00:42:10 Rachel
Cody?
00:42:10 Alyssa
And so I had seven million questions for Cody that I'm sure a lot of people have. So in the state of Maine, they regulate the moose population so they don't overtake stuff. And so it's very selective. You can't just go kill a moose like you can shoot deer.
00:42:25 Rachel
It's a lottery. And then when you get your permit, they tell you where you can shoot. So it's broken up into zones. They tell you the date range that you can shoot, which is generally five to seven days. I think I have to go back and look at the paperwork. And then it's either antlered or not antlered. So my permit is antlered.
00:42:44 Alyssa
Whoa, so badass.
00:42:46 Rachel
Yeah. So in my dream world, I would get like a large bull and then I want to get the head like European mounted, not like ugly taxidermy,
00:43:02 Alyssa
Not with like, no hair, no fur. Just the antlers.
00:43:02 Rachel
Just like the skull and then the antlers. That's what Cody did with his moose. And it looks really cool.
00:43:11 Alyssa
Where is it?
00:43:12 Rachel
It's in our garage right now. I think he's going to take it up to his office. When he got his moose, I was like, look, if you do regular taxidermy, that's not welcome in my space. So if you want it to be around me, it needs to be a European mount. So yeah, now I have to prepare for this moose hunt. And we're taking the kids, which is going to be hard because we're going to be up in the middle of nowhere. And it's a lot of car time. But also, I just think it's going to be a rad experience for them, and hopefully they get to see their mom do a badass hunting trip.
00:43:43 Alyssa
Do you remember when Cody was like, all right, I feel like he was jazzed to go have a week in the woods for his week, and then he got a moose on day one or day two, and I think there was a part of him that was like, shoot.
00:43:56 Rachel
Yeah, he texted me, so he went up. The hunting period opened on Monday, so he went up Sunday night, and then Monday morning I got a text picture of a moose. And he was like, but I really want to stay until Wednesday.
00:44:09 Alyssa
You're like, okay, okay.
00:44:12 Rachel
Um, so I also kind of hope that mine will be quick like that because, um, it's going to be a different ballgame with the kids.
00:44:21 Alyssa
Yeah, totally. Totally. Also, you remind me so much of Noni right now and telling this where you're like, kind of shy about it, but like excited.
00:44:29 Rachel
I am really excited, but I also feel like there's a stigma around hunting, kind of, that if you hunt, you're like a camo -wearing redneck.
00:44:38 Alyssa
Totally. That's why I love this, because it's so off -brand. If somebody saw you in the actual wild of the world, you're like on the beach reading a book.
00:44:49 Rachel
With progressive values.
00:44:52 Alyssa
Correct. And now you're like in the woods killing a moose. And I'm just here for this. I'm here for the dichotomy.
00:44:58 Rachel
Well, I think for me, I think in our culture, they're so separate, but to me, I'm like ethical and sustainable consumption of meat, I actually think is a progressive value, at least for myself. And so this feels in alignment for me, but I also know that for a lot of people, hunting is associated with a value system that is not in alignment with my life. So yeah, it's this mixed bag.
00:45:26 Alyssa
I love it. I also think like it shows that we're all just like humans and there isn't a like, oh you like this and so you are this and I know all these other things about you. And that like, oh no, you just know this part of me. So I grew up in like rural western New York and everybody hunted. Like people would go hunting before school, you would like drive through town and you could see like a deer hanging because somebody had caught it and they're draining it or or whatever. That was real. My family did not hunt, but my grandpa did. Actually, he would go out west. I forgot about this. He would go out west and do this horseback trip where they would hunt large animals.
00:46:10 Rachel
Yeah. Hunting out west is really different. I don't have a ton of knowledge of it, but one of my uncles also would travel and hunt like that. It's just different. The behavior patterns and population numbers of the game are different, so hunting is a completely different experience.
00:46:27 Alyssa
But it was like his trip. My grandpa, my mom's one of eight girls, eight girls in 10 years, okay? And I feel like the out west hunting trip was the only thing grandpa really did for him. And I feel like that was his like, that's how he stayed in the game, man, that's how he stayed in the game.
00:46:47 Rachel
It was his estrogen cleanse when he got to go out.
00:46:51 Alyssa
Correct. Sweet man. Okay. I'm so jazzed for you. I want to know the week. I want, I, obviously we're going to need a podcast follow -up, um, and because we record these ahead of time, we're going to actually probably need to like pop in and have a little special podcast follow -up update on, on the moose when that happens.
00:47:12 Rachel
Yes. For sure.
00:47:14 Alyssa
Okay. Now what about if you don't get one? And what comes up for you?
00:47:19 Rachel
I don't think anything because I think as a woman in hunting culture, I don't feel pressure. Cody felt pressure. My brother has felt pressure.
00:47:31 Alyssa
Also, Cody's a game warden. He works in this field.
00:47:36 Rachel
Yeah, totally. So I don't feel that level of pressure. So I'll be disappointed if I don't get one, but I don't feel like it will say anything about who I am or my abilities. My identity is not wrapped up in hunting the way that it is for some other people. So I mean, I'm just like, man, this is crazy and I hope that I get one and if I don't, it's okay.
00:48:00 Alyssa
So fun. And it's also one of those things where like, if I didn't know and love you from the outside, I'd be like, oh, this moose got wasted on this gal who doesn't really care as much. And there are people out there who are like, would kill for a moose, literally kill for a moose.
00:48:17 Rachel
I think like for me, it's never going to be like a trophy kill. I'm not hunting for the sport. I'm not hunting to be like, I killed a moose. I'm hunting to be like, I'm feeding my family. So being sustainable and ethical, you know.
00:48:34 Alyssa
Really hunter gatherer of you.
00:48:36 Rachel
That's, yeah, that's my vibe. I'm not in it for like the widest antlers or like, so people will think I'm cool.
00:48:43 Alyssa
Sure, sure. Well, I think there is something too, like we look back, you know, hunter -gatherers, women predominantly gathered and men hunted. And so to be like, I'm going to hunt, I think that's why it feels badass. Because historically speaking, that's not what we did. We gathered. So be like, no, I can kill something too. I think it's pretty cool.
00:49:02 Rachel
And also, like, I don't even fit the stereotype of a female hunter. I'm just like way out in left field. Um, so yeah.
00:49:12 Alyssa
I want to see your get up. Are you going to get new clothes? Like is this a--
00:49:16 Rachel
I have camo. Um, so I'll just wear my camo that I own. When Cody bow hunts. I like to go sit in the stand with him and read my book. LOL.
00:49:25 Alyssa
See, that's the thing. Like this. That is more on brand. Cody's hunting and I'm reading my book instead.
00:49:34 Rachel
So I have camo. So hopefully I don't have to buy anything new because we'll already be spending money on fuel. You have to bring tons of fuel. There's no gas stations up once you get up there. You have to carry in your fuel that your vehicle's going to need and food. So there's already a money spend. I'd like to not include clothes in that budget.
00:49:54 Alyssa
Yeah. Okay. Sure. Okay. Oh, my God. So fun. All right. Now, I guess we can dive into the podcast. Although, hard transition because so jazzed. Also, if you are listening and you have more moose questions and moose hunting questions like I did years ago with Cody, holler at us. Let us know your moose questions and we will answer some in future hangs at end of the pod. Okay, who are we chatting about today?
00:50:29 Rachel
We are talking about Maria Davis -Pierre, The Black Side of Autism.
00:50:39 Alyssa
Yeah, so rad, this discussion, and so necessary. What were your thoughts?
00:50:46 Rachel
The first thing that came up for me was that she noticed signs in her child when, her daughter, when she was six months old. And then at 18 months old, she was trying to get steps moving to get services. And the amount of fighting and advocacy that had to go into just getting medical professionals to believe her, it's so disheartening.
00:51:15 Alyssa
Yeah. Isn't it wildly cool how attuned she is to her daughter? To notice at six months signs and be like, hmm. And then in the one's, it was at 18 months or whatever, I was like, wow, she's so attuned to this human.
00:51:34 Rachel
She was on it. And I had sort of two reactions to her talking about the level of advocacy see that she was forced to embody. And part of me was like, wow, that's incredible. And the other part of me was like, she never should have had to do that.
00:51:54 Alyssa
Correct. Yeah, that's the part of me that's strongest. She never should have had to do that.
00:51:57 Rachel
Yeah, same.
00:51:59 Alyssa
The not believing Black women is rampant in so many spaces. And it was a really good bias check for me here, an awareness check, to hear it in this early ed space.
00:52:19 Rachel
Yeah.
00:52:20 Alyssa
Because we hear about it in early ed a lot when it comes to behavior of kids in classrooms, you know, our preschool -to -prison pipeline, but I hadn't heard a lot of stories. I feel like we hear about it in birth and pregnancy and postpartum experience, and then I feel like I hear about it a lot then in behavior of kids in the classroom. And she popped in here with this middle gap that I feel like I didn't have as much awareness around and was like, oh man, it doesn't stop.
00:52:58 Rachel
Yeah. Same. I learned so much from listening to her and yeah, it's that gap, that early parenthood period of time where she noticed things. And it's like, what's the fear? What's the fear? If you just say like, yeah, you're right. You're 18 months old does seem to have some signs that something is going on. Let's get services rolling. What's the worst thing that happens? But I think that's tied into the stigma around even using the word autism on a young child. And it just sort of proves that as a society, we still view neurodiversity in a negative light. Otherwise, it would just be like, yeah, it does seem like there might be some signs of autism. Let's look at what we can do for support starting now instead of let's wait and see. And it's like, okay, well, now 80 % of their brains developed when they're three. So thanks for making me wait and see.
00:53:57 Alyssa
And frankly, I and this kid could have used strategies and tools and support.
00:54:02 Rachel
One thousand percent.
00:54:04 Alyssa
Yeah. Oh, man. Agreed. It's a great point that if we saw neurodiversity, if we saw it without shame and without fear, then it would be a non -issue. This is, okay, yes, this is a discussion I want to have. We are working with these early childhood programs and supporting them in our Seed Cert, and so often, conversations that I'm having are about these like big behaviors, whatnot. And what I realized in a lot of this coaching is we're often expecting neurodivergent humans to exist in a neurotypical world and a neurotypical environment and expectations and routines. And what's mind boggling to me is that when it comes to accommodations or just shifting this space or shifting the routine or saying, here's what works best for this kid, it literally is not an additional thing for us. It's just shifting our expectation of, oh, this child's going to come in and have access to this tool, or they're going to sit on this chair instead of this chair. They're going to be able to take a break at this point. If it was, hey, this kid has diabetes and they're going to need to go get some insulin or whatever at certain times, we'd be like, of course. And we wouldn't be like, nope, sorry, can't do that in our classroom. This is the other thing that happens. People will put a plan in place and we're like, okay, this kid is doing really well in the program, in school, and thriving. And then they're like, okay, now we can back off of these. And I'm like, no. Again, if we compared it to diabetes and it was like, okay, you got your insulin, now we're going wean off of insulin. Like, nope. You need this, this is how your body functions. This is how you can thrive. And yeah, so 100 % agree that if we are really going to be mindful of our biases here, it's looking at how do we feel about neurodivergence?
00:56:17 Rachel
Yeah. It makes me think about how when we talk about sensory systems and sensory regulation, people often jump to sensory processing disorder, autism, other diagnoses. And sometimes it's just that we're all on a spectrum of sensory systems. We all have different sensory profiles and there's something wrong with diagnoses and they're important. However, there is a problem with hearing the word sensory and having an internal dialogue with a negative implication, which I think is true for a lot of us.
00:56:54 Alyssa
Yeah. Or even just othering. It's like actually all of us. I mean, it's interesting because we grow up hearing about our five senses.
00:57:01 Rachel
Right.
00:57:03 Alyssa
And when we add in the other three to talk about all the sensory systems, when we say sensory versus senses, it feels like there's a different connotation for folks. We've literally been talking our whole lives about how we have five senses. We're going to add in three more. We have eight senses.
00:57:20 Rachel
Totally. Also what comes up to me is I think a lot of people are using the word temperament to describe a human's sensory profile. That word is well accepted in our culture and nobody bats an eye when somebody says like, oh, he just has a sensitive temperament or he's temperamental or whatever. And it's like, yeah, that's that's that kid's nervous system. You know what I'm saying? And so it's like, why is saying that their temperament is a certain way fine, but then saying like, yeah, they're sensory sensitive, or they don't filter noise very well, then all of a sudden, it's a totally different vibe.
00:58:04 Alyssa
It's so funny because I had a Seed villager who I adore who's been in our village for a long time. I got to meet in real life when I was traveling at one point and we went out to dinner and she asked, she was like, how do you feel about temperaments? And I was like, so funny that you bring it up. I think it's really very often confused as sensory systems and that we aren't identifying sensory needs when we're just like, oh yeah, that's just their temperament. They just are a high -energy kid. And it's like, okay, do they need something? Do they have a sensory need that's not being supported? Or how are they filtering information? You know? And I'm not totally sure if I'm like, throw temperaments out, but I do feel like there is this confusion around it's like overused when we are really talking about sensory systems.
00:58:59 Rachel
I do too. And I think like what comes up for me is like when we use the word temperament, it's kind of this like, well, that's just what it is. And I believe that we're born with our sensory profiles and I do believe that they are part of us and they are what they are. And we can support kids in navigating the world with more ease if we acknowledge that it is their sensory systems, identify their needs and help meet those needs, and we're not trying to change who they are. We're just trying to help them move through the world without it being so uncomfortable and stressful.
00:59:32 Alyssa
Yeah, so that they can thrive.
00:59:35 Rachel
Exactly.
00:59:37 Alyssa
Yeah, 100%. So that's a great point then with this episode that people, there wouldn't have been a like, do we believe her or not, if we viewed neurodivergence with acceptance and worth and value? And not a, oh, there's something wrong, right? Yeah. I also, it was like really interesting to hear about when she said, I was like, this makes sense, but from the early intervention or support side when people are coming in, and how you have to tweak what you're doing from just white culture to support Black humans, that it's not one size fits all. And I mean, no shocker, but it's created from a white lens.
01:00:28 Rachel
Well, a thousand percent. The hairbrush example that she used, right? The other thing that came up for me was she talked about how like for Black humans, diagnosis can be even harder because they code switch and mask to protect themselves. And so then their symptoms and challenges are not always visible, or as visible as they would be. And that was another moment where I was like, okay, yeah. The need for awareness around our own biases and for remembering how much whiteness is centered in our culture and in our medical system. It's, yeah, I just felt like I really appreciated listening to her and learning from the examples that she shared.
01:01:25 Alyssa
Yeah. And then I was like, alright, what is my role here, right? Like, how can I think part of it's having conversations and, you know, putting conversations like this on the podcast and having them with each other and being uncomfortable in conversation and being imperfect in conversation. And then looked at like, all right, what's my role outside of that? I serve on a number of state committees here in Vermont. I have like hands in a bunch of early childhood systems here in Vermont and what can I do to be an advocate or an ally because damn being your own advocate all the time is exhausting and I think... you know I remember a long time ago I was pissed about something in the news and it was something about our pay versus men's pay or something and I was like venting to Zach, my white male husband, and he was, you know, listening to me, he's like, yeah, it's not fair, blah, blah, blah, and I was like, totally, and I need you to be just as pissed. I need you to use your voice at work. I need you to question the systems at work and asking things like, yeah, is this female counterpart paid the same that I am. Cool. I just got a raise. Awesome. Has she gotten a raise?
01:02:54 Rachel
Yeah.
01:02:55 Alyssa
And being able to call out those systems. And I was like, because if women are the only ones fighting for women, it's going to take a hell of a lot longer and probably not going to escape the patriarchy that was designed to have us not be on equal footing. And that came up for me here where I was like, you can't just have Black people fighting for Black people. And so what's our role and how do we advocate and be allies in this space?
01:03:26 Rachel
Yeah. Yeah. As you're talking about your involvement in a lot of spaces in Vermont, what comes up for me is like, part of it is, yeah, having conversations, but it's got to be more than that too, right? It's like, at some point we have to talk about policy change and we need to talk about expanding research. And, you know, she had mentioned how there's like almost no research on Black autistic women. That's not okay.
01:03:51 Alyssa
Nope. I mean, getting research done for women's health in general is a barrier. And then add on Black women or any women of color, disabled women, you step outside of able -bodied white women and research is so underfunded. Yeah. And so then it's like, man, how do we make people care?
01:04:15 Rachel
I don't know. I don't have the answer. Um, I really want her on our Summit.
01:04:21 Alyssa
Yeah. We're working on that. Yeah.
01:04:23 Rachel
Cause I think one, I mean, this is part of what drives why we do what we do at Seed, right? Because a big part of this is what we are teaching the tiny humans who will eventually be adults in this world who will be policymakers and board members and doctors and nurses. And I think for me, that's where I feel like I can actually make a difference. Whereas like, when I think about policy change, it feels so out of reach.
01:04:59 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Like, we are doing this with the tiny humans. I was actually listening to an Armchair episode recently with this guy whose name I cannot remember. And he studies rituals and routines. And one of the studies that he was a part of, they were looking at racism and talking about race, just the ability to talk about race, to mention that somebody is Black or white and have conversations about it. And one of the things that they did was a Guess Who game. And so they put their own pictures in and they could look then at what age do kids stop talking about race, right? So they could research it from really young and then they got older and older because they started with adults and the adults would not. They would ask, are they old? Are they wearing glasses? Do they have curly hair? Name all different features. They would not say, is that person Black? And then in the studying of this, they saw it happens quite young where kids realize, like they start off in the study and they will say, like, does that person have dark skin? Does that person have Black skin? And they'll ask. And then as they get just a little bit older, I think it was like four, and we don't have a fact check on this podcast, but somebody check that. I think it was like four years old that they started to realize, like, maybe I'm not supposed to ask that. And they would ask other questions, but they wouldn't say, does that person have Black skin or are they Black. If somebody, an adult included, was playing the game, if a white person was playing with a Black person, and the Black person asked about race, then they would ask.
01:06:53 Rachel
Interesting. It's that I don't see color ideology that...
01:06:57 Alyssa
I'm not supposed to talk about it, yeah. But it's like, if we can't even talk about somebody being Black, we can't have deeper conversations about the ways that they're affected.
01:07:05 Rachel
Well, and frankly, not wanting to ask if somebody's Black or say that somebody's Black is rooted in anti -Blackness. So, yes, we need to be talking about it, and...
01:07:16 Alyssa
Well, it's similar to the, like, not wanting to acknowledge autism or neurodivergence.
01:07:22 Rachel
Or a disability.
01:07:24 Alyssa
Right. As if that means something's wrong. Yeah. And I'm like, gosh, we have so much work to do if we can't just even say that that person is Black.
01:07:32 Rachel
Yeah, and what comes up for me when you talk about that experiment or that research is like, okay, it's starting at four years old. So we need to be working with our youngest little tiny humans and letting them know that racial difference is a part of this world and that everybody belongs in this world. And yeah, it's okay to notice that somebody's Black or Brown.
01:08:00 Alyssa
Yeah. Just de -centering whiteness in general. We have a Santa book, and in the book, Santa's Black. And--
01:08:11 Rachel
This book
01:08:14 Alyssa
This book, it is so good. It's so funny. It just hits on like every progressive liberal thing to like the point where it's like, okay, we're talking about unions in this book. It's absurd.
01:08:27 Rachel
And it's a board book.
01:08:29 Alyssa
No, it's not. There's pictures. But it is a tiny human book still. There's pages. But it has been interesting because then it has led to discussions around when Sage saw Santa in the mall and he was like, that's not Santa. And we were like, oh yeah. Remember in the book where they talked about how there's all different Santas and they, and it says this in the book, there's like all different Santas and some people believe Santa's not even Black. And kind of like how bonkers is that? And just like all this representation, but it has led to like, for us, discussion in our household on, because we definitely have members of our family that's like, what are you doing? And is this necessary. And I'm like, yeah, our goal is truly here just to decenter whiteness, that like, the automatic assumption for white folks is Santa's white.
01:09:32 Rachel
100%. Okay, something's coming up for me right now. And this is something that my kids have, I've talked this through with my kids and now they'll say stuff, and I get a similar reaction from some people. They're like, is this necessary? But white Jesus. Jesus wasn't white. My kids will see a picture of white Jesus and be like, what's the deal, Mom? I'm like, I know, he's whitewashed everywhere. He was a brown man. And that, I just want my kids to know the truth. He just wasn't white, and we don't need to whitewash him, and we shouldn't be doing that.
01:10:04 Alyssa
And the amount of discomfort that it causes white people to even acknowledge that.
01:10:09 Rachel
Well, yeah, and then we can open up the whole can of worms about, which we won't derail this episode, but the way that Christianity has been wrapped up into white supremacy in this country. And so it's like, through that lens, of course they've whitewashed him. But I I want my kids to know who he actually was.
01:10:29 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. But I think, so that's, I guess, a spot that we can personally start to be allies, like really looking at where are we centering whiteness?
01:10:43 Rachel
Yeah.
01:10:43 Alyssa
Or is it that we're just assuming, or it's from this white lens first? Yeah. And just starting to, I guess, call ourselves out in those spaces.
01:10:53 Rachel
Yeah.
01:10:54 Alyssa
And knowing that like, yeah, it comes with some stuff, man. I, I don't think there are family members who will never stop saying things or, or probably even wrap their head around Black Santa. Like it's just, they cannot. Yeah.
01:11:13 Rachel
And that's fine.
01:11:14 Alyssa
Totally. And I'll have like conversations with them as much as we can have conversations. This is another thing. I think that we've gotten to a space now where a lot of people only surround themselves with people who think like them, practice like them--
01:11:29 Rachel
Echo chambers
01:11:29 Alyssa
--have shared values, echo chambers, yeah. And I grew up in Western New York, rural Western New York, honestly deep Trump country, and I love so many humans there. And think that there's such needed conversation that has to be able to happen from one side to the other and looking at, like, actually have a lot of shared values with these humans. And how do we coexist and chat? And I just think that, like, we've gotten to this place where we can't even have conversations with each other.
01:12:08 Rachel
I agree. And I think where actual change happens is where we are able to have conversation with the understanding, there was a time in, as I was sort of unwrapping my own biases, where then I felt like I needed to convince everybody I loved to also be doing this work so that we could agree and see things the same. And I felt like, I don't know, this pressure to make sure that everybody that I was close to was doing this work alongside me. And now I've kind of shifted to a space where I want to enter into conversations about these things, not with the intent to prove to somebody that they need to change their way of thinking to match mine, but to connect and have real conversation that's vulnerable and not judgmental. And I think that's where you might actually find that you are sharing a lot of the same values. Yeah, I went through a time where I was feeling very judgmental, and it was almost like a holier -than -thou situation where I was like, look at this work that I'm doing, and you better be doing it too. And now it's just kind of like, yeah, let's just sit and chat. I'm curious to know your perspective. Tell me more about why you believe that or feel that way. Because I think then I'm able to really connect. And when those defenses come down, then you really get to have those conversations that do actually move the needle.
01:13:42 Alyssa
And coming from a place of curiosity, right, of like, yeah, what's coming up for you. And I found in those conversations that we often are, we have same fears and a lot of similar challenges. And we are consuming different messages about how to solve those challenges and where those fears are being sparked. And I think there's this like the holier than now comes up, that resonates for me, because I sometimes am like, oh yeah, if they just understood this whole side and everything from my perspective, then they would join. They would be like, oh yeah, of course, that makes so much sense. What was I thinking? And that like the, I don't if ego is the right word in that, but there's something there that is like, oh, yeah, so I'm right. And when you just totally know my side, then you'll agree.
01:14:46 Rachel
Yeah. If you would just listen to me, you would realize that I'm right and you're wrong.
01:14:51 Alyssa
Yeah. And when that shift happened for me too, like actually I'm just going to seek to understand it. It's okay if I'm not understood. That one is a hard one for me,
01:15:02 Rachel
Oh that's a hard one for me
01:15:02 Alyssa
That I have like constantly do work around, that one comes up in social media for me. That like, there are some things that are not productive conversations to have on social media where no one is actually in that conversation listening. It is the like, no, we're going to just be in our echo chamber, that I have with time, and as that I feel like has shifted and grown, been like, I'm going to say things in a different way, or I'm going to have conversations in DMs instead or whatever. And sometimes this means allowing people to misunderstand me.
01:15:42 Rachel
Yeah, to think that you don't care because you're not -
01:15:44 Alyssa
Correct.
01:15:45 Rachel
You're not posting into the echo chamber, which really isn't going to - like, posting into an echo chamber isn't gonna - it's virtue signaling. It's not gonna change anything.
01:15:57 Alyssa
Correct.
01:15:57 Rachel
It's those conversations that you have in DMs where you're voice messaging back and forth with somebody where your tone is conveyed and there's a feeling of safety in that, that's where connection and the real change happens.
01:16:14 Alyssa
Yeah. Well, because I've seen people who are posting to their echo chamber, it's a different one than mine would be, and I see them post and post and post and post with stuff that I'm like, this is not true or that's not what I believe or whatever. And I just have gotten to a point with watching certain humans where I'm like, oh, I couldn't have a real conversation with them about this. And I don't want to do that. I do want to have real conversations with people. I don't want to instill that feeling outside of my echo chamber.
01:16:43 Rachel
Yes. I hear you. Yep.
01:16:46 Alyssa
And so that's something I'm trying to be mindful of. Ughh, okay. I do hope we can bring her to summit. We are working on that and would love for early childhood educators to get to learn from her as well. So fingies crossed, early childhood educators, we can make that happen. We do an annual virtual Teacher Summit in March every year, and hopefully you'll get to hear more from her on what this looks like in the early ed space. Thanks for diving into this convo with me, Rach.
01:17:20 Rachel
Yeah.
01:17:22 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
Connect with Maria:
Instagram: @autisminblack
Website: https://www.autisminblack.org/
Order the book: Self Care Affirmation Journal: 52 Self Care Affirmations to Reconnect with Yourself and Develop a Healthy Mindset
Podcast: The Autism In Black Podcast
Connect with us:
Instagram: @seed.and.sew
Podcast page: Voices of Your Village
Seed and Sew's Regulation Quiz: Take the Quiz
Order Tiny Humans, Big Emotions now!
Website: seedandsew.org
Music by: Ruby Adams and Bensound
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/VOICES.
