Codependency and Creating Healthy Emotional Boundaries with Alyssa Zander, M.Ed

00:00:00    Alyssa

You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today we get to dive into codependency and what it looks like to create healthy emotional boundaries with Alyssa Zander. Alyssa is a codependency and relationship coach supporting women in stepping into their authenticity and joy through shadow work and healing codependency in the mother wound. She is the creator of Codependency Alchemy, a podcast and membership that's designed to support you in feeling seen and supported while breaking through the generational cycles that are keeping you from standing in your power. Codependency is something that all of us wade in and out of, and for some of us, it's so hard to break that we feel like we're breaking when someone else is having a hard time, when you can feel that energy in the room and your nervous system is responding to it. It is palpable and being able to regulate your nervous system even when someone else is dysregulated is a challenge. I loved getting to dive into this and dance with Alyssa on some of this here and there. All right, folks, let's dive in. 

 

00:01:21    Alyssa

Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together. 

 

00:01:43    Alyssa

First of all, great name. 

 

00:01:45    Alyssa Z.

I know. I'm here for it. I love talking to other Alyssas. 

 

00:01:50    Alyssa

I liked growing up as an Alyssa. How did you feel about being an Alyssa? 

 

00:01:56    Alyssa Z.

Same. I was like one of maybe two in my small town that was Alyssa. So it was really nice. 

 

00:02:05    Alyssa

Yeah, same. I was like, there was another Alyssa in my grade. And other than that, I can't think of another Alyssa. And same thing, like small town. So it was like, alright, not super rare. People can handle it. And also not, you know, very common where there were seven million of us. 

 

00:02:26    Alyssa Z.

Right? 

 

00:02:28    Alyssa

Nice, I dig it. Where are you from? 

 

00:02:30    Alyssa Z.

I'm from Oregon, yeah. So I grew up in Central Oregon in Bend. 

 

00:02:34    Alyssa

Yeah, okay, I've heard of it. 

 

00:02:36    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, I know, everyone like loves Bend. They're like, oh my God, you're from Bend. Like, must be so nice. And honestly, it was really nice to grow up there. but I didn't really appreciate the outdoors the way that I do now. Like I'm like, I had this in my backyard for my whole life. 

 

00:02:56    Alyssa

Where are you now? 

 

00:02:57    Alyssa Z.

I'm in Portland. So still in Oregon, but in the city and yeah, close enough to home. Like we wanted to move close enough to home where we could visit and it would be easy, but far enough away to like not live in our hometown. 

 

00:03:11    Alyssa

Sure, sure. Did you, are you in partnership with someone from your hometown? 

 

00:03:15    Alyssa Z.

Yes. 

 

00:03:16    Alyssa

Oh, nice. 

 

00:03:17    Alyssa Z.

We went to the same high school and everything, but didn't know each other until well after college. 

 

00:03:24    Alyssa

Wild. How many kids do you graduate in that high school? 

 

00:03:27    Alyssa Z.

Everyone asks that, and I have no idea. 

 

00:03:30    Alyssa

Hilarious. 

 

00:03:31    Alyssa Z.

I have no idea. That is apparently a number that you're supposed to know because you are not the first person to ask that, and I'm like, I think I'm supposed to know this number. I don't know. Hundreds. Okay. Yeah. Not like - 

 

00:03:45    Alyssa

It's decent. Yeah. Yeah. We, well you said small town, but then you said we didn't know each other in high school and so I was like, those don't add up for me. That's why I was curious. Yeah. I graduated 78 kids or something. 

 

00:03:59    Alyssa Z.

Okay. 

 

00:04:00    Alyssa

So like very small town. Yeah. And I was like, there's not a world in which you don't know everyone in that high school. 

 

00:04:07    Alyssa Z.

Totally. 

 

00:04:07    Alyssa

So that makes more sense. That makes more sense. Yeah. 

 

00:04:10    Alyssa Z.

Where are you from? 

 

00:04:11    Alyssa

I'm from Western New York, like south of Buffalo on the Pennsylvania border. Same thing, like gorgeous, beautiful, super rural, small kind of farm town vibe. 

 

00:04:25    Alyssa Z.

Nice. 

 

00:04:26    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any siblings? 

 

00:04:29    Alyssa Z.

I do. I'm the oldest of three. 

 

00:04:32    Alyssa

Okay. 

 

00:04:32    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. Yeah. 

 

00:04:33    Alyssa

What's your makeup brother, sisters? 

 

00:04:37    Alyssa Z.

So it goes me, my sister, my brother. 

 

00:04:40    Alyssa

Okay. 

 

00:04:41    Alyssa Z.

So brother is the youngest. 

 

00:04:42    Alyssa

What's your age difference? 

 

00:04:44    Alyssa Z.

We are so close in age, like not even two years from each one of us. Yeah. I think me and my sister are 14 months apart or something like that. We grew up together. 

 

00:04:57    Alyssa

That's sweet. How was that? Are you close? 

 

00:05:00    Alyssa Z.

We are super close. I think growing up, there were a lot of dynamics where I was very much the mother, like the second mom. My mom was 17 when she had me, so my parents were both very young. And so as like, I've got all the oldest sibling probs, right?  I was the caretaker. I made sure we had dinner because my parents worked multiple jobs, like all the things. So I think the dynamic growing up was a little bit more like my brother will still refer to me as like his mom. He sees it as like I raised him, even though like we all did. We all raised him, the little baby boy. But as adults, we are super close. We've just been through it all together, and we're all really comfortable talking to each other. So I think that's really helpful. 

 

00:05:51    Alyssa

Yeah, that's so sweet. My parents had my oldest brother when they were 19. And the first three are also very close in age. The first two are less than two years apart.  And then two years later, there was another one, and then there was a gap, and then me, and then a gap, and then my little brothers, just five of us. But those first three were really close in age, the three oldest boys, and my mom was really young. And similarly, my oldest brother, he has very much played that dad -type role, like, helped me get my first credit card, and get things together for college, and all those sorts of things. Bless you, oldest children, especially I think with like young parents where there's a parentification that can happen of you just assume that responsibility. 

 

00:06:42    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, totally. And I feel so grateful because everyone in my family is like willing to have like the hard conversations around like, yeah, like that wasn't okay that that happened. And thank you for all that you did. Like when my brother just got married last summer, and my mom just like placed her hand on my back and was like, this is like your baby getting married. You know, like she even like validates how much I did as a child for all of us to, you know, be taken care of. And that I think is just, I'm so grateful for that because, you know, it's a level of being seen and validated that sometimes I didn't even realize I needed, but when I get it, it's just like, it's just such a salve. 

 

00:07:26    Alyssa

It's pretty emotionally intelligent from your mom. 

 

00:07:30    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. Yeah. We've been through a lot in the last, like, ten years, so. Yeah. 

 

00:07:36    Alyssa

That's rad. Yeah, because I'm sure a lot comes up for her around what she could or couldn't provide. My mom, similarly, both my parents worked a bunch of jobs. My mom waitressed on weekends and nights and whatever, just keep in food on the table roof over our head, providing our basic needs. And I think they saw their job as providing our basic needs. Our basic physical needs. And the rest of the needs we had to get within the community or within our siblings or whatever. Yeah, that resonates. How do you think that structure of you being the oldest and such a caretaker and probably feeling a lot of responsibility, especially for it sounds like that little brother of yours. And then the relationship with your parents. And I'm wondering how that shaped your work in codependency and looking into that. Do you feel like you really had a lot of codependency in existence between specifically you and your mom here of like, I need to take care of this, because she can't and I need to also make sure she's okay? 

 

00:08:48    Alyssa Z.

Mm hmm. Yeah, I think at a certain point growing up, there was a shift that took place. And I can't tell you exactly when that happened, where it was like, I wasn't a child anymore. Like I was not only the caretaker for my younger siblings, but I was also the caretaker for my parents. You know, like, I remember consciously being like, we can't wake up dad because he'll be so upset and like grumpy. So like, I'm just gonna figure out what we're gonna have for dinner, you know, like, I'm just gonna draw the bath for us. And like, I remember this one specific instance where like, I couldn't even get the cold water on because it was too like, tight. And I just remember being like, but I can't wake anyone up. Like, I have to like, do this on my own. And, you know, I think it hardened me a lot as as a kid and going into like, those teenage years, like, I didn't see my parents as parents. Like I just, there was almost like this level of respect that was kind of lost over time. I also, you know, trigger warning, like abuse and stuff, like there was sexual abuse and trauma in my home as well. So like add that on top of everything, like I felt pretty isolated and alone and like I needed to care for everyone in order to be safe. Like who do I need to be for my dad in order to be safe. Who do I need to be for my mom who I told I was experiencing sexual abuse and it got swept under the rug and everyone just pretended like it didn't happen? So it's like, okay, well, I can't tell my truth here without it making her upset because that obviously was a huge rupture in our family. And so it was like, okay, who do I need to be to be safe to be in this home. And that's, I think, where my codependency really anchored in is, I can morph and be whoever I need to be in order to be safe here. 

 

00:10:49    Alyssa

Beautiful coping mechanism. 

 

00:10:52    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, like, thank God I figured out how to do that, like those parts of me, I, and that's where the healing really started taking place. Instead of judging myself for being this people pleaser, which is such a common thing, like, oh, I'm so terrible and all the shame and the guilt, I noticed the biggest shifts in healing codependency in the mother wound for me when I began to have a reverence for that part of me. Thank God you did that. Thank you so much for creating those patterns in a time when I needed them. 

 

00:11:23    Alyssa

I love that. I think you're right. There's often so much judgment for those parts of us. I experienced sexual abuse when I was 14 and also didn't have a safe place to turn to, to share, to, yeah, to not be alone in it. And so similarly developed a lot of coping mechanisms to stay alive, to stay safe. And I, now at this point, I'm like so grateful for those coping mechanisms that now as an adult, I can like find myself falling into I have to be really conscious of turning to coping strategies instead of mechanisms, because there are parts that are like, nope, we have to keep you safe and think I'm still 14 and need that reminder. I'm curious for you on the codependency side of it, as you've been diving into this work, how do you parse out what it looks like to be empathetic, to show up for other humans and to not be codependent. I think this is something that I think sometimes there's a really strong pendulum swing to the other side. When you're realizing I'm living with a lot of codependency, there can be this strong pendulum swing to the other side of like, well, I'm not budging on anything. I'm only going to take care of my needs. I can't be there to rescue you. And then sometimes we find that middle. So I'm just curious for you. 

 

00:12:55    Alyssa Z.

That's such a great question, honestly, and it gives me something to chew on. I don't think I've ever been asked this question, but I'm just going to tell you what's coming to mind first. So I used to work with children. I have my master's in early childhood education. I used to run my own school. 

 

00:13:11    Alyssa

Same

 

00:13:11    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. So I used to be a Montessori teacher, and I'm going to tell you what I learned from being a guide or a space holder for children and empathy. What I used to think empathy was from a codependent lens is you're feeling discomfort and I somehow fix or alleviate that discomfort for you, right? When empathy isn't necessarily fixing somebody else's discomfort, it's saying this is uncomfortable and I'm here to sit here and witness you in that. So I think that's the shift that's taken place for me and what empathy gets to look like and feel like. And for a long time, the fears of not fixing it for others made me feel like I wasn't connecting, right? Well, like if I'm not fixing it for them, if I'm not changing it for them, if I'm not like getting them out of their discomfort so they feel joy on the other side, then I'm basically pointless. Like what's the point of them coming to me then, if I'm not going to change it for them, and the fear of the loss of connection that would happen if I didn't take that role of fixing it or changing it for them. But I will say from years of evidence now that I have that I anchor into when that part of me still comes up sometimes, and the work that I've seen with the women who I've worked with over the years too, is actually when we sit and say like, I see you in that, I'm here and I'm listening, what do you need? I hold space for women in both my membership and my mastermind groups. And that is the most common thing that I get reflected back to me at the end when they're like reflecting on their time, is that like, I actually got to be witnessed in my experience instead of it trying to be changed. That's empathy. Is saying like, that's really hard. What do you need? What do you want? How can I support you? Like, that's empathy. It's not like, oh, well, I don't have capacity, so I need to walk away. Like, that happens too, but empathy is just holding, I don't wanna say empty space, cause that's not it, but like, it's sacred witnessing without needing to do. It's just being. 

 

00:15:43    Alyssa

How do you keep yourself regulated in those instances where, yes, somebody else is dysregulated, and especially if it's something where you really do understand, you can connect to that, and there are parts of you that are probably gonna get activated by witnessing parts of other humans. How do you maintain your regulation through that so that, I think so often, the desire to fix for someone else really is a desire to fix for us. 

 

00:16:16    Alyssa Z.

100%. 

 

00:16:17    Alyssa

It's a, this is uncomfortable for me and so I need you to be regulated, I need to fix for you so I can get back to feeling comfortable. 

 

00:16:27    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, I lean on one thing, I validate that person as soon as I notice I'm dysregulated which I've done a lot of, a lot of the work I do is somatic healing and somatic work. So somatically and what I mean by that is like physically my body responds a certain way when it's dysregulated and I've gotten really familiar with my cues. So like my ears get really hot when I get dysregulated. I actually lose feeling in my fingertips when I get dysregulated. So like when one or two of the – and there's like a few others, but those are like really big common ones. I know that like I get to table this conversation. Like it's time for me to table it. So usually how – and this comes up mostly with my family. It usually comes up with my great -grandma the most or with my partner, right? We are having a conflict and that comes up. So what I lean on is usually reflecting back to them what I hear. I hear you want to have a conversation about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'm noticing that my ears are really hot or I'm losing feeling in my fingertips, so I'm going to go calm my body down and then like, can we come back to this? It's uncomfortable. It feels really weird to say, like I'm just going to name that because people are like, that sounds so like robotic, da, da, da. Well, it's like that's the best that I have. The alternative is I stay dysregulated and then I start interacting with you from a place of codependency as opposed to a place of authenticity and autonomy. And what I want to give people more than anything is authenticity and autonomy. So if that means I need to call myself out and say, like, I need to table this conversation right now, then I need to table this conversation right now. 

 

00:18:17    Alyssa

I think one of the things that comes up for me is just the mirror neuron aspect of, you know, say we got two young kids, right? I've got a six -month -old and a three -year -old. And so if my husband comes in and he's dysregulated, say he has a thing with the three -year -old and now my husband's in a dysregulated state and my three -year -old's dysregulated and I go and support the three -year -old and hold space there and my husband is like in the dysregulation and then that energy exists and my nervous system is like, this sucks. I don't want to be in this energy. This isn't fun for me. That's often a phrase that comes up for me. It's like, like, this isn't fun for me. And I don't want to be in this. I wanted to all hang out tonight. And now we have your shitty mood. And for me is easier with my kids to be like, sure, I can hold space for you when you get to feel upset and whatever. Versus with my husband where I'm like, I'm doing this for them. And I don't, I would love for you to bring some different energy into the space, right? The reality of our energy is contagious and specifically adult to kid that I don't think it's a kid's job to get regulated for the adults. And so if he's coming in the space and he's dysregulated, what happens for me is like, cool, we're going to have a spiral. Now this is going to go to the kids. It's going to be me who's holding space for that. And so could you just kind of get your shit together so that my job's easier. 

 

00:20:02    Alyssa Z.

Mm -hmm. 

 

00:20:02    Alyssa

Does that make sense? 

 

00:20:04    Alyssa Z.

100%. And this is like, this is the, I don't wanna say problem, but this is the dynamic of enmeshment, right? My partner's mood is my responsibility in the sense that like, I am in the same space with his mood and we have children, right? 

 

00:20:21    Alyssa

Yeah, and we have children that's harder. Pre -kids, I was like, sure, I can hold space for you and not take it on. Yeah. But I know they're gonna take it on. 

 

00:20:32    Alyssa Z.

So the tools that come up for me when I hear that is, I don't know if you've ever read Byron Katie's book, Loving What Is, it's a great book. It literally saved my relationship in a lot of ways. But what comes up is like, how do you feel when you believe the thought, my husband's dysregulation is going to trickle to my children? 

 

00:20:55    Alyssa

Annoyed. 

 

00:20:56    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. Yeah. How would you feel if you didn't believe that thought? 

 

00:21:02    Alyssa

They're probably fine. 

 

00:21:04    Alyssa Z.

Right. 

 

00:21:04    Alyssa

You get to have your feelings and I don't feel like I need to save him from them. I feel safe with him having them. 

 

00:21:13    Alyssa Z.

Yes, exactly. So it's that piece where we get to start seeing how our thoughts are causing even more of that dysregulated environment rather than this isn't going to affect my children. And if my children are dysregulated, they're just dysregulated, just like any other thing, right? Maybe they're dysregulated because of the toy or they're dysregulated because of the food or because they're tired, right? It's just, you're not attaching the two because it's the attaching the two that then has the, which holds the suffering, right? 

 

00:21:46    Alyssa

Totally. Well, that's it. It's like, then I'm going to be, if my kids are dysregulated and my husband's dysregulated, it just means I have to work harder to operate from a place of regulation. Because my nervous system's going to fire off theirs, right? I'm going to experience the mirror neurons of them being dysregulated. And then I have to actively regulate, which frankly is annoying when it's like, I don't have to do that if he's in a regulated state and then they don't fire off him, you know? 

 

00:22:23    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, totally. So, when my partner is dysregulated, something that I know is supportive for me, and obviously like when there isn't kids involved, you can just easily remove yourself from the environment, right? 

 

00:22:34    Alyssa

Yeah, totally. 

 

00:22:35    Alyssa Z.

Like, I'm going to let you have your moment and I'm going to go and, you know, tend to myself. When there's kids, there's a need for support. There's a need for presence. There's a need for parents to be there and to work together. And there's a desire too, right? Like, we do this as a team. I don't know if you're asking for advice or feedback, so I'm going to ask you if you're open to it. 

 

00:23:00    Alyssa

Totally. So open to it. Let's do it. 

 

00:23:04    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, but these are the conversations that you get to have with your partner, like, at a neutral time. Right? Like, at a neutral time, just like you would with children. Right? Just like it would – it's most beneficial for us to have these conversations when we're not dysregulated. But coming to it and saying like, hey, I noticed earlier when you got home from work, you know, I noticed that you were like huffing and you were puffing and like you're closing the drawers really loudly. You know, I would love to learn more about that. What went on for you today? Right, instead of like, I need you to be regulated for us, like we go in just highlighting or spotlighting what we want to change instead of seeking--what I call it is like, seek to understand, right, as opposed to seek to control or to fix or to change. So it's like, if we can understand why that happened, what happens for us is we cultivate more compassion, right? And through that compassion, we can say, I see you, what is something that we can do as a team to help support you in that transition of walking into the, you know, walking home, walking through the door and leaving work, or coming home after work? What is something you need? And maybe he's like, I just need 10 minutes in our room just by myself to land here. Cool. It's like you start talking about solutions instead of fixating on what's not working. 

 

00:24:30    Alyssa

Sure. Sure. Yeah. And I think I'm going to dance with you. I'm going to be real with what immediately comes up for me is, yeah, I think especially in hetero relationships where we often are carrying so much as the females that the idea of like, oh yeah, let me also figure out what you need and help create space for what you need. When I think a lot of us feel like capacity or close to capacity as we are primarily figuring out what our kids need and what we need and trying to find ways to ask for and advocate for those or to teach kids to advocate for those, et cetera. There's a part of me that's like, yeah, sure, figure out what you need, Zach, and do that, and then come in the door, right? Like, I think that there's a part of me, as you were saying that, that was just like surfacing, that was like, I don't wanna co -create the plan with you. I want you to take that on as your task and to create that plan for you. Happy to navigate the like, what I observed conversation and seeking to understand. And that all felt like, yeah, totally. And I feel like we do a lot of that. It's the, then I'm going to like co -create with you how you can be regulated that I had a part that was like, nope, not going to. 

 

00:25:57    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. Yeah. 

 

00:25:58    Alyssa

Not responsible for you figuring out how to regulate. And if you need 10 minutes, come home 10 minutes earlier because anyone who is the one who has the kids first is waiting for the second person to come home knows 10 minutes makes a big old difference. 

 

00:26:13    Alyssa Z.

Oh, my gosh. We've been counting down 10 minutes for 10 hours. 

 

00:26:17    Alyssa

Yup.

 

00:26:17    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, exactly. No, totally. 

 

00:26:19    Alyssa

Exactly. So if you need 10 minutes, you find it in your day to come home 10 minutes earlier because at 5:05, you're on, my friend. You're on. Yeah. 

 

00:26:31    Alyssa Z.

And then the question, it always also begs the question, what do you need? 

 

00:26:38    Alyssa

Correct. Well, and I think that's the part within this, when I asked earlier of the codependency pivot and huge pendulum swing that I think a lot of folks experience is the going from, yeah, I am responsible for, felt responsible for keeping the peace or regulating everybody else. And now I can't do that anymore. I'm realizing these things about myself. I'm moving through this. And now I'm like, yeah, not co -creating with you, right? Like that's the part of me that has swung the pendulum that came up. It's like, nope, not my job anymore. Learned this about myself, did it my whole life, not doing it for you. And when I nurture myself and my needs are met, then I'm like, yeah, let's co -create. I'm happy to be a partner in this. I'm not gonna make sure it happens. I'm not gonna schedule your appointments for you. I'm not going to. 

 

00:27:30    Alyssa Z.

Right. 

 

00:27:30    Alyssa

But I'm happy to help brainstorm with you. 

 

00:27:33    Alyssa Z.

Right. 

 

00:27:33    Alyssa

But I can only access that when my needs are met. Because otherwise, that part of me is like, oh, yeah, keep meeting everybody else's needs, Alyssa. Great. Never meet your own. Right. Like that part comes up. 

 

00:27:48    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. Which is such a beautiful awareness, right. And you're already naming some that like difference of it's the-- it's boundaries right when resentment comes in of like I'm not helping you with this like I'm at capacity. That's just the need for boundaries and identifying your wants and needs, right? So it becomes less about your partner in that situation and more about you know you and saying like, okay, where am I overgiving? Where am I self -sacrificing? Where am I overriding my own needs to meet the needs of others? And what I teach my clients all the time is like, where do you feel resentment? Where in your life do you feel resentment? Because that is going to be a perfect indicator of showing you where you're overgiving, where you're self -sacrificing. And then it's your responsibility to come to your partner and saying, you know what, I've been taking inventory of where I'm starting to feel resentful. So the way I did this with my partners, because I always clean the house, Like, I just need a clean house. It is like what my nervous system needs. It's like ad nauseum, I need the floors vacuumed, the dishes done. It's like, it's just, it's ridiculous. And I know it's ridiculous. But the safer I feel in my body, in my nervous system, the more I realize I don't actually need those dishes done right this second. 

 

00:29:09    Alyssa

Yeah. Right. It feels like control when things don't feel in control. 

 

00:29:13    Alyssa Z.

Exactly. So that is, and you're speaking to it too of like, yeah, when I feel safe and my needs are met, like I'll co -create with you. I can hold that space. I can be creative with you. So really that's our body showing us, hey, you need to go within, you need to tend within, you need to see the parts of you and what you need, and then you need to find ways to ask for that in a way that feels good for you. 

 

00:29:38    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah, and I think like what sucks, thinking f a few people's work here. Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself, Dr. Morgan Cutlip, and she has another book coming out. But I think so often that advocating for our needs, I think especially as moms, feels so hard because we're working within systems that are not designed for us to ask for our needs. 

 

00:30:07    Alyssa Z.

100%. 

 

00:30:08    Alyssa

And you're bucking a system, right? And then add, I mean, you I'm sure know this experience, but like being an early childhood educator and working in service fields where it was like, no, you're going to make four cents an hour and don't ever take a sick day and show up no matter what and give and give and give of yourself. And so for I think so many humans who are in service work and service fields, we've been like groomed to do that. And I remember my first teaching job, I actually, I don't think I've had a fever since as an adult, but I had a fever and was like very sick. And I called in and was like, I'm so sorry, like I have a fever and I feel so sick. And she was like, okay, are you throwing up? And like went through other things. And I was like, no. She's like, my whole body hurts. I feel like it can't function. She was like, all right, why don't you take a rest and see how you feel in the afternoon if you can come in? And it was my first teaching job. And it's something that stuck with me because it's like, oh, I was asking for the day off. And still the system was like, we don't have subs. We don't have bodies. You can't take a day off. And I think there's so many of us that have like grown up in these systems where we weren't supposed to take a day off. We weren't supposed to advocate for our needs. And so now learning to do that is so hard and uncomfortable and often feels like we're in these systems where we have too much on our plate and we don't know how to take something off of like, yeah, the kids still need to fed. We have to go to work to pay the bills, but then we're running this rat race of like, got to get the groceries, got to, got to, got to, got to, got to do all these things. And where's the village that people talk about that comes and helps you do this? You know, I think of like your mom, you were that village, you helped raise those kids because she had to do all these other things to keep food on the table and a roof over your head. And yeah, and so like, what would it have looked like for your mom to say, I have these needs, I need X, Y, and Z and what was realistically available versus felt like dream world? 

 

00:32:37    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. 

 

00:32:38    Alyssa 

You know? 

 

00:32:39    Alyssa Z.

Totally. 

 

00:32:42    Alyssa 

And I think sometimes it's like hard to parse out in the advocating for our needs, what's even available? What can I advocate for? 

 

00:32:53    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, and to me, it's anything that comes up for you and the work that I used to do with children is like I sought ways to get my needs met when I was with them, right? If I was dysregulated, even if they were dysregulated, I couldn't hold space for them and I communicated that to them. This is what I'm going to go do now to regulate myself so that I can hold space for you. And I think that as mothers, there's a lot of guilt, a lot of shame, a lot of, I can't do that. I can't leave my child alone in their room that I specifically made sure was a safe space. It's like, you absolutely can. And the story we tell ourself is that we're neglecting them, right? That we're a bad mom. But it's the, where are we overgiving and self -sacrificing even in that role as mom with our children and where it's like, you do need to count down that 10 minutes and you need to find 10 minutes to come home early, right? When it's like, no, you get those 10 minutes as often as you need throughout the day. In my classroom, I created meditation time, not for the children, for me, because I needed a break. I needed a time where I was not asked for anything, where I could just come back into my body, right? So I can come back into presence so that I could hold space for them. So I wasn't depleted. So like where do us as mothers and like rewriting what it is to be mother. That's why I wrote my book, Healing the Mother Wound. The mother wound is I have to give of myself, self -sacrifice, I have to do it alone and I can't ask for anything. I compare myself to others. I hold judgment not only against others but against myself, mostly, and no one can know about all of the things that I carry. Like, that is the mother wound. Healing the mother wound is saying, no, I don't have to do this alone. I get to ask for what I need. I get to be seen. I get to hold myself in compassion and grace when I need to ask for space from my children that that is okay and that actually what I'm modeling is that it is okay for them to ask for space when they are at capacity. 

 

00:35:09    Alyssa 

I think this is where codependency comes in hot because it usually involves a tiny human who's going to cry in response to your boundary, right? It's the acceptance of... I was giving a presentation last year and we're talking about boundaries and this mom was like, Okay, how do I... She painted this picture of they were at the playground and it was time to leave and she prepped her kid and they even used a visual timer on her phone, whatever. Then her kid's melting down as it's time to go and she was like, how do I do that differently so they're not melting down? And I was like, oh, we have different goals. I've never set a boundary for kids and they were like, 'great, can't wait to follow it. I can tell you have my best interest at heart. Thank you so much for taking care of yourself. I love and respect this.' That's not how they're going to respond, right? 

 

00:36:06    Alyssa Z.

No. 

 

00:36:07    Alyssa 

And it's going to come up. I mean, I have a six -month -old. There's going to be a lot that she doesn't understand. Today was like, I need to shower. And it was just me and her, and it wasn't her nap time yet. And during her nap time, I had other stuff that I wanted to do. So I was like, I'm going to put you in an ExerSaucer in the bathroom. You're going to hate it. I'm going to go in and shower and then I'm going to come out and get myself ready. You're probably still going to hate it. We're going to have 15 minutes of you hating it and me letting you know that I'm still around and you're not alone. And that's basically how it shook out. She wasn't like, enjoy your shower, mom. I'll just chill in the ExerSaucer here when I can't you and I wish I could. And so I think that the codependency piece that comes in here with the needs is knowing that it's okay for your kid to be upset about the boundary, and that what you're modeling in taking care of yourself, especially if we verbalize it, I'm like, this is what I need to do to take care of my body. I said yesterday to my three -year -old where we had just been like... He had a morning and he had a day off of school in the middle of the week, which is atypical. There's a holiday. And so he was home with me and his sister the middle of the week. He recognized routine was off and he was having a morning and a lot of big feelings. And I was getting to the point where I was like, I need a break. And he said something. And I said, you know what, buddy? I need to walk away from you for a minute so that I can calm my body, so that I can be kind to you. I think if I stay here right now, I can feel my chest getting really tight and really hot, and I feel like it's gonna explode. I'm just gonna walk away, I'm gonna get some water, and I'm gonna come back. And he followed me crying the whole way there. And I literally, on my way past the kitchen, I snagged my AirPods and just popped them in my ears. So I was like, I need to like, lessen the noise of him crying right now. And he's yelling the whole time, you're walking away from me, you're leaving me, stop walking away. And I was like, I'm gonna grab water, and then I'm gonna come back to you. And like, needed that. It wasn't like a trip to the spa. It's not like I was like, oh my God, I feel so zen and relaxed. No, he walked after me screaming, sobbing the whole time. But I was able to calm a little bit enough where I didn't lose it on him. And I think that's a part that I don't think is often talked about enough within this is that when you assert your needs, the other person isn't necessarily just going to be jazzed about it. And you still don't have to move the boundary. I don't have to to be like, okay, fine, I'll stay here. I'm not gonna get water. I'll make sure you're not upset. 

 

00:39:16    Alyssa Z.

Thank you so much for sharing that because it is so important as mothers to know that that's available. And the shadow work prompt I give mothers all the time who struggle with boundaries is, what are you afraid that boundary will mean about you? And it comes down to, I'm a bad mom, right? 

 

00:39:36    Alyssa 

Yeah, and what does that mean? 

 

00:39:37    Alyssa Z.

And then exactly. And if you're a bad mom, then what does that mean? Well, it means that they'll hate me. And if they hate you, then what will that mean? Then that means that they won't love me. And if they don't love you, then what? What does that mean? Well, then that means they'll never talk to me again. And if they never talk to you again, then what does that mean? It means I end up alone. So we weaken our boundaries because we're terrified of being alone. And this is the root of codependency in so many ways. We're afraid of abandonment. We're afraid of rejection. So we change ourselves in order to get that need met. And so how we do it is we how do we heal that right is tending to that part of us that is afraid of being alone, and we meet it with compassion, and we meet it with love. And then we ask that part of us what do you want, what do you need, how will you feel when you get that need met and we meet that need for ourselves. Same thing when in regards to partner situation. What's getting triggered here? We often fixate on the child having the tantrum or the partner who's having a tantrum, right? 

 

00:40:39    Alyssa 

Sure. Legit. 

 

00:40:41    Alyssa Z.

When it's really like, what is their tantrum bringing up for me? The more I have done that instead of fixating on the tantrum, what is this tantrum bringing up for me? There's just light years of freaking healing that is happening for me because it's never really about that. That's just reflecting something to me. Yes, it is something that I'm going to have to navigate in the physical for sure, but after I've met myself first. It doesn't have to be this like whole long like okay I need to go like close my eyes and sit in lotus pose and meditate. Like I will literally just put my hand over my chest and say what part of me is this bringing up? How old is this part of me? It's like, I'll like see my inner child like six -year -old, like peeking around like this rock being like, it's not safe. I'm like, I see you. What do you want? I want peace. I want quiet. Okay. You want peace. You want quiet. How will you feel when you get that peace and quiet? I'll feel safe. Okay. So how can I provide that peace and quiet for you? Even if it's only a visual in my mind's eye where I imagine that six -year -old part of me in a frickin' garden, in a little fairy garden in the middle of the forest. 

 

00:41:54    Alyssa 

Put in Bend, Oregon. 

 

00:41:56    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, in Bend, Oregon. Yeah, exactly. I was like, there's your fairy garden, there's your peace and quiet. You don't have to come in and protect me right now. This is what I used to do every day before I walked into the classroom because that little part of me would go in guns blazing being like, no one's listening to me. No one's listening. That was her story. No one listens to me. No one listens to me. No one listens to me. 

 

00:42:16    Alyssa 

Sure. 

 

00:42:17    Alyssa Z.

Which makes sense, right? 

 

00:42:19    Alyssa 

Mm -hmm. 

 

00:42:20    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. Makes sense why she would feel that way. So I would go in and say, you don't have to protect me today, I've got this. Because that's all that's getting triggered. When we're dysregulated, it's just inner parts of us that are being activated, brought up to the surface. And instead, we go into changing ourselves and morphing ourselves to meet the needs of whatever is happening outside of us. And what we're doing when we do that is we're self -abandoning, we're self -rejecting, and that part of us is just going to get louder. It's just going to keep coming up until you tend to it, and it's just going to show up in different ways. 

 

00:42:57    Alyssa 

Yeah, well, and I think when we're looking at IFS work, one thing I wish was included more is discussion around the sensory systems and how they affect our regulation, and that like, is this part of you being triggered because it needs to come in and protect you? Or has it been too long since you've eaten? When was the last time you had quality sleep? Like, is there background noise and you're sound sensitive and that's adding up? Like, are you too hot, right? Like that came up the other day at work where one of our team members was like, yeah, I was like gonna lose it. And then just realized like, I'm too hot. We've had hot days and I need to turn on the AC, right? But like, I think there's a time for parts work and diving into our parts and finding that balance with our nervous system regulation from a sensory system perspective of, yeah, do we need to dive in and support this part or am I too hot? Should I just pop on the AC? And it requires either way just a level of awareness of what it feels like to be dysregulated, to be able to even ask yourself those questions. 

 

00:44:19    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, yeah. Right, the remedy is the pause. Like you just need a pause. Like Eckhart Tolle says, like it takes one conscious breath, right? All it takes is one conscious breath. And so to like come back into presence, right? Come back into the present moment. So if we can just give ourself that gift of, what do I need right now? What's going on with me right now? Even just asking that question. Yeah, we're gonna maybe identify, I'm too hot. I'm exhausted. I'm tired. I haven't had any coffee. I'm hungry. I haven't eaten. 

 

00:44:52    Alyssa 

I have a six month old that was living on my boob all night. I'm exhausted. 

 

00:44:56    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, yeah. 

 

00:44:58    Alyssa 

Totally, yeah. That's the part of like IFS work that I wish was more present that I think is often not present. 

 

00:45:07    Alyssa Z.

And I want to reflect back to you how beautifully you modeled that to your child yesterday, right? Like when we start using language like that of like, I am noticing my body feels like it is about to explode. That's relatable, right? We've all experienced that feeling. If we haven't experienced that feeling consciously, you communicating it might make that more conscious next time. And he's like, what did mom do last time she felt like her body was going to explode. She went and got a glass of water. 

 

00:45:37    Alyssa 

Yeah. 

 

00:45:38    Alyssa Z.

Right? She didn't project onto me, right? Which is what we end up doing when we stay. 

 

00:45:43    Alyssa 

Not that time.

 

00:45:44    Alyssa Z.

Right. Yeah. And hey, that happens. And it happens all the time. Right? And that's what repairs are for. I always tell people, like, repairs are the most healing thing in the world. 

 

00:45:54    Alyssa 

Yeah. In fact, when I do parts work, a lot of the time what that part needed was repair. 

 

00:45:59    Alyssa Z.

Exactly. 

 

00:46:00    Alyssa 

It didn't need for the thing to not happen. 

 

00:46:02    Alyssa Z.

No. 

 

00:46:02    Alyssa 

It needed repair or a safe place to turn to process.  

 

00:46:06    Alyssa Z.

Yep. Exactly. And when we cause ruptures through our own projections, like that's the gift that we're giving our relationship. And that's the trouble with codependency. I think sometimes, you know, I don't love like narcissism or using that word at all, but like that kind of idea is like, oh, I don't do anything wrong, right? Like nothing is my fault. I don't cause any issues. But codependency is the other side of that same coin, which is like if anything wrong or bad is happening. It is my fault like anything bad or not-- 

 

00:46:42    Alyssa 

And they often find each other. Codependents and Narcissists.  

 

00:46:44    Alyssa Z.

Oh, oh, yeah 1000 % yeah, and and I think we all have you know, those tendencies but with codependency it's just like where where are we constantly thinking that like everything wrong or bad is because of us, like is our fault.

 

00:47:02    Alyssa 

So, before we wrap up, what does it look like then to set boundaries? You know, you touched on the, like, being able to walk away from a conversation or whatever. I think in the discussion around codependency, part of the pendulum swing is this move into, yeah, I'm not going to take that on. And without any accountability for, you know what, I'm gonna regulate and come back to that, or here's what I need for this conversation to continue. But instead we're like, no, I'm not gonna be a part of that. Door shut. And I think what we've seen or what I've observed are folks just avoiding conflict altogether still, in fear of not knowing how to be in conflict. Does that make sense? 

 

00:48:01    Alyssa Z.

1 ,000 % and I think about my mother immediately because it's like we go into silence, right? We go into silence, silent treatment, like it's complete avoidance. And obviously like no one can make anyone do that work. Like if that's your capacity and you're not able to do that work in this situation or in this lifetime.

 

00:48:23    Alyssa 

 But even for yourself, Like, if you're the one who's setting that boundary, how to set that boundary for yourself? Where you're not saying no to the conflict, but that you are not participating in the codependent aspects of the conflict. Does that clarification make sense? 

 

00:48:39    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, definitely. Like, are you asking, like, how would I communicate that with my partner? 

 

00:48:44    Alyssa 

Yeah, your partner, your mom, your whatever, like the thing that comes up and you're like, oh, I'm falling into the codependent, you know, like pattern. Okay, I don't want to do that, but how do I communicate this boundary without just abandoning the conflict altogether? 

 

00:48:59    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. And I think what I use is the tableing the conversation, the language that I use is, I'm noticing whatever it is that I'm noticing in my body, or I don't have capacity for this conversation right now, I use like 'right now', and then I usually set a time, which is actually helpful for my anxious attachment because I don't like things just like, I mean, unless I'm the one that's abandoning ship, then I'm like, no timeline. But for me to hold myself responsible and not doing that because I tend to have that pattern and I know that about myself, I'll say like, can we table this and have this conversation tomorrow? This actually happened recently when I got back from a trip. I was super activated. I knew I wasn't able to communicate to him without projecting or defending myself or making him wrong. And so when he asked, what's wrong? What's going on? I just said, you know, I don't feel like I can communicate it in a way that would be respectful to you or to us right now. So can we table it, but talk about it tomorrow? And he was like, for sure. And so-- 

 

00:50:02    Alyssa 

Actually, thank you. 

 

00:50:03    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. I mean, he like doesn't care. He probably doesn't even remember what I said. Probably just one ear out the other. But for me, it held me accountable because I gave myself a timeline. So like that next morning, I made sure to like really sit with myself and journal like, what is actually bothering me, what is actually coming up for me, and how can I communicate that in a way that supports us in coming up with a resolution that feels good for both of us. I did a whole podcast episode on that, like what that looked like and sounded like in my relationship. Yeah, it just happened like last month. I was like, this is very real. 

 

00:50:43    Alyssa 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think my work often comes in to being like, yeah, it's also not everything's to be fun. The part of me that's like, I'm not having fun. It's like, right, not everything is going to be fun. And it's okay to be in things that are uncomfortable. It's okay to be in the discomfort and not just solve the problem or make it go away or make it fun. The day wasn't a waste if the mood was off or you didn't feel connected this afternoon. I grew up in a household where humor was often a distraction, and so there was no space for hard feelings. It was distracted out of. And so just existing in the hard and being like, yeah, I feel sad, or it feels uncomfortable to be around this other person who's having a hard time, who feels pissed or whatever. I've had to delineate in what relationships do I feel safe when that person's dysregulated, and what relationships don't I,  so that I know when do I just tap into those coping mechanisms, the people -pleasing, the distracting, because it's still a tool that I find very helpful in relationships where I don't feel safe if that person's dysregulated. But if I feel safe when Zach's dysregulated, my husband, then yeah, then it's tapping into the parts of me that are afraid of just like being in the discomfort and that learn to just distract out of it. Does that make sense? 

 

00:52:19    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. Totally. And that's the codependency, right? I'm only safe when you're regulated, right? 

 

00:52:24    Alyssa 

Well, there are some people where that's real. 

 

00:52:27    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. Yeah. 

 

00:52:30    Alyssa 

And there are some people where that's just a carryover. They're like, no, I am safe if he's dysregulated. I just don't like it. 

 

00:52:38    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. Well, yeah. And like, 

 

00:52:39    Alyssa 

It's not fun. I'm not having fun. 

 

00:52:43    Alyssa Z.

It's the same thing with boundaries, right? People don't always love boundaries, right? In fact, they usually don't. They usually feel some type of way about boundaries. It triggers levels of rejection or whatever, like setting that boundary. I think something in common I say to people who are practicing boundaries or learning to practice boundaries and are seeing that resistance from whoever they're setting that boundary with, whether it be their child, their mom, their spouse, is trust in their resilience to move through it. Trust in their resilience to move through that discomfort. 

 

00:53:25    Alyssa 

Yeah, it's hard to have because I think a lot of us don't trust in our own resilience to move through it. So it's hard to trust that somebody else can. 

 

00:53:35    Alyssa Z.

That's real. 

 

00:53:36    Alyssa 

Yeah. Oh, discomfort. Blech. 

 

00:53:43    Alyssa Z.

It's real. And it's going to happen. It's inevitable. And I think that when I used to hold parent education classes, that was such a common thing that mothers really had. I just don't want my child to be upset. I just want my child to be happy. I don't want my child to want for anything. And it's just like, but that's going to happen. Like whether in your home or when they leave the house like they're going to experience disappointment, they're not gonna get that job. They're gonna get denied on the date. Like the the work we get to do is we get to show our children how to hold themselves through disappointment through discomfort and a common thing that people come to me is like, okay, I don't want to feel like this anymore. I don't want to feel whatever this is anymore and I'm like I'm not your person because I will never tell you that that healing codependency means that you don't feel discomfort anymore. And that idea is literally going to perpetuate your codependency of I'm not good enough I didn't do it good enough see if I would have healed it then I wouldn't be feeling this but healing is not the the absence of discomfort. Like I want, anyone who hears this like please take this away healing is not the absence of discomfort. Healing is how you hold yourself when discomfort comes up. 

 

00:55:10    Alyssa 

Yeah, that's why I said blech, because it doesn't go away as we do this. And that's the doozy of this work. And actually, there's a few big parenting influencers and their approach is really around like, let me tell you what to say and do with your kids in these moments. And there was a human I was talking to recently, a parent, and she was like, oh, I just love it, because then I feel like I can do this, right? And I was like, oh, I was just listening to that. And I was like, what they want is what am I supposed to say and do to get out of this uncomfortable middle, right? And what I really want is to help them learn how to be in the discomfort so they can authentically respond so that they're not using somebody else's script because, and I think scripts can be a helpful like jumping off point when you're just getting into this you're like, yeah, I grew up hearing you're okay. And what else can I say in the moment as I'm building this? But to embody somebody else's language as yours all the time, for me means you're not going to show up as your authentic self. And your kid's going to read that or your partner or whatever. And it is going to feel like you're just saying what you think you're supposed to. Another part's forming. That's like, I am here to say what I'm supposed to say and how I'm supposed to respond as this gentle, respectful parent or whatever, and now I've said the script, and then when they're like, oh, it's not working. It's like, well, yeah, because you're not here, right? You're not present in this moment, because what you tried to do was just make the discomfort go away. And it's learning how to be in that discomfort that I think is the key to connection in relationship, but it sucks. 

 

00:57:01    Alyssa Z.

Yes. 

 

00:57:02    Alyssa 

Right? Like, but it's different goals. It's the, it's the leaving the playground, right? That like my goal for you leaving the playground isn't actually that your kid's like, okay, mom, saw the timer go off, ready to go, here I am. Like that they're just going to be cooperative and collaborative all the time. My goal is that your child learns that they can trust you and that they're safe with you, and they learn that through us saying, we'll take care of you, and here's the boundary, here's what to expect from us, I will be regulated as I enforce it, and it's okay if you're dysregulated while I hold this boundary. 

 

00:57:43    Alyssa Z.

100%, because that, holding that boundary, and I think that's what a lot of parents miss out on, is holding that boundary is actually what builds trust with your child, because they begin to learn, my mom does what she says, instead of, oh, she said five minutes, but then she let it go for 10 minutes and 15 minutes. And as soon as I cried, I got to 

 

00:58:06    Alyssa 

Because I was crying. 

 

00:58:07    Alyssa Z.

Yeah, exactly. And as soon as I cried, I got to do this. And we think that our children are doing this from this like manipulative place. But like, that's not even they don't even have that part of their brain developed to do it manipulative. They're just learning behavior. 

 

00:58:19    Alyssa 

Mm -hmm. What can I expect from you? 

 

00:58:21    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. 

 

00:58:22    Alyssa 

What happens if I cry? What happens if I throw this thing? What happens if I say this word to you? And they're just looking for what are you going to do and how do you react to that?  And I think the key part there is us being responsible for our regulation, that when I hold the boundary, if I'm pissed and I'm dysregulated in holding the boundary, that sends a whole different message than if I am regulated and I'm letting them know that you're allowed to be disappointed. I, just the other day, said to Sagey, my little guy, he's three, and we were getting ready for bed and he didn't want to put jammies on and get ready, and I said, totally, bud. I'm gonna set the timer. When the timer beeps, I'm gonna put your pajamas on you. We can do it together as a team. He's been very into putting his own clothes on lately. And I was like, we can do it together as a team and you can do it solo if you want to, or I can put your pajamas on you And if you're crying and you don't want your jammies on, I'm still gonna put your pajamas on you because that's one of the ways that I keep you safe overnight when it gets cold. And that's it. He knows it's coming. And there are definitely times where I've wrangled pajamas on his crying body because he's tired and needs jammies on and needs me to be his adult right now. And then there are times where he's like, I'm like, okay, fine, hate this, don't wanna do this and gonna put my jammies on. You know, but he knew up front, even if you're crying, I'm gonna put your jammies on you. 

 

01:00:00    Alyssa Z.

Yeah. 

 

01:00:01    Alyssa 

Cause I love you. 

 

01:00:04    Alyssa Z.

And I think that's that communication piece, right? Even when you need to walk out of the room, even if you need to like take a breather, it's that communicating it clearly is the medicine. And when that part of you that's asserting the boundary that's like, oh, I can't, I'm neglecting, I'm this, I'm that, just like you communicated to them. You communicated to them. 

 

01:00:31    Alyssa 

I'm-- not shocking given my past, but like have a part that'll surface a lot in those moments that wants only consensual touch. And so when he's like crying, he's like, 'that hurts my body.' And I'm like, I know it doesn't, right? Like present me knows this does not hurt his body to get his pants on. I have to really tend to that part usually after and being able to revisit and spend time with and support that part of me that didn't feel physically safe, wasn't physically safe, when he was just now physically safe. But I'm like, oh my gosh, he's saying it hurts my body and I'm wrestling him into these jammies like am I ruining him?  Is this consensual and like that's real that like our triggered parts are gonna, our parts are gonna get triggered in those moments. 

 

01:01:24    Alyssa Z. 

Yeah 

 

01:01:26    Alyssa 

Yeah, oh, Alyssa I could do this forever with you. 

 

01:01:28    Alyssa Z. 

I know, likewise. 

 

01:01:28    Alyssa 

This is so fun for me. 

 

01:01:30    Alyssa Z. 

Yeah, same. 

 

01:01:32    Alyssa 

So where can people find you learn more about your work find your book? 

 

01:01:36    Alyssa Z. 

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I have a podcast called Codependency Alchemy. Um, like I said, if you want to hear how that whole drama, if you will, went out with my partner and how we communicated and the benefits of what that got to look like because I didn't have that conversation from a dysregulated place, we had it at a neutral time and it was so beautiful and I hold on to that as evidence whenever I'm like, no, I need to defend myself right now. I'm like, no, this is what gets to happen when I don't do that. So yeah, podcast, Codependency Alchemy, you can find it on Spotify and Apple. I also have a sub stack called Codependency Alchemy with a weekly newsletter and the podcast that comes out and a membership. So if you want to be a part of a community of women who are coming together to heal this, heal codependency, heal the mother wound, we heal the mother wound and codependency like in communities, being able to see each other in our, you know, less than ideal parts, the parts of us that we hold a lot of shame around being witnessed and it can be super healing. Yeah. 

 

01:02:38    Alyssa 

I love it. Thank you so much, Alyssa. 

 

01:02:40    Alyssa Z. 

Thank you. 

 

01:02:40    Alyssa 

Thanks for doing this work. 

 

01:02:41    Alyssa Z. 

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. 

 

 

[Music]

 

01:02:50    Alyssa 

So we did a thing. 

 

01:02:52    Rachel

Okay. 

 

01:02:54    Alyssa 

We kind of spur of the moment bought Chiefs/Bills tickets. 

 

01:03:00    Rachel

Okay. I saw. 

 

01:03:02    Alyssa 

So fun, right? 

 

01:03:03    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:03:04    Alyssa 

Because you know that this isn't going to sit well with my Western New York folks since I grew up real close to Buffalo, but I'm rooting for the Chiefs. I am a Chiefs fan and obsessed with Patrick Mahomes. 

Here's the thing. I grew up as a Yankees fan and like, you know, Jeter was like very much like a kid that I I feel like as I was growing up, he was growing up as a Yankee and, you know, our captain is such a classy guy, love, obsessed, my whole family is obsessed with Jeter and Mahomes reminds me of like a Jeter. And I feel like he's a classy dude and works really hard and loves the sport and all that. And also if you watch quarterback, which is how I, one of the ways I really fell in love with him. First I thought he was just a really good quarterback and like all that jazz, but then was like, oh my gosh, he's like nonstop got nice things to say about everybody. Who he's playing against all that jazz. Anyway, I fell in love with him and I would really like to, if anyone has any connections, I would really like to connect with them and do consulting for the Mahomes, some parenting consulting. So I should put that out into the universe if anyone wants to bridge that connection, I'm happy to help any way I can. 

 

01:04:35    Rachel

So, when's the game? 

 

01:04:38    Alyssa 

It's in November. So, you know, my parents live in Western New York, so Zach was like, it's a Sunday, it's like a four o 'clock game. So I was like, this is perfect. We won't be like, it won't be overnight, it won't be whatever, like we can go out, spend a long weekend at my parents. And I had just, my dad had just said like, hey, we have to find a time to see Sage because I'm going out with Beaners for work in October, but Sagey isn't coming on that trip. And he was like, we got to find a time to see Sage. Like, it's going to be too long. And so I was like, guess what I got for you? How much do you want to watch him? 

 

01:05:14    Rachel

You're going to see him. 

 

01:05:17    Alyssa 

And yeah, we bought, we just pulled the trigger, bought the tickets. My brother has Bill's season tickets, Andrew. And so we're like two rows in front of him. 

 

01:05:27    Rachel

Wow. That's exciting. 

 

01:05:28    Alyssa 

Yeah. So fun. We're just like, we'll do it. It's our Christmas slash birthday gifts, whatever, to each other. We're like, don't do anything for any of the holidays. We'll just do this. We usually do, but I was like, for real, don't get me anything. We'll just do this with each other because it's so expensive. 

 

01:05:46    Rachel

That's really fun. 

 

01:05:47    Alyssa 

I am really bad at spending money on experiences, but I value them. And I was just like, you know what? We're going to do it. We never did the resort trips or even when it was just the two of us. We just vacationed with our families and that's it. It's the same vacations every year. We would go to free shows and things like that. I was like, we will not regret this. It'll be our first that long of a date away from our kids since Beaners has been born. 

 

01:06:25    Rachel

Yeah. It's going to be so fun. 

 

01:06:28    Alyssa 

So fun. Yeah. I'm not wearing any Chiefs gear because I don't want to get beat up. 

 

01:06:32    Rachel

Okay. Good idea. 

 

01:06:34    Alyssa 

And Bill's Mafia is real. 

 

01:06:36    Rachel

It is? 

 

01:06:37    Alyssa 

Mm -hmm. Take no prisoners. 

 

01:06:39    Rachel

Okay. Yeah. 

 

01:06:40    Alyssa 

They are. They are not what one would call kind. 

 

01:06:45    Rachel

Okay. 

 

01:06:46    Alyssa 

And I grew up, like, tailgating Bill's games, you know? My grandparents actually had season tickets for a chunk of time. And yeah, I was like, I know well enough to not wear any Chief's gear here. 

 

01:06:59    Rachel

Yeah, that seems like a smart move. 

 

01:07:03    Alyssa 

My husband's not much of a fighter. 

 

01:07:06    Rachel

No, no, he's not. 

 

01:07:11    Alyssa 

So I'm gonna try and not get him into any dust -ups. 

 

01:07:15    Rachel

Yeah, probably for the best. 

 

01:07:16    Alyssa 

But also I think Taylor Swift will be there. 

 

01:07:20    Rachel

Yeah, I mean, I feel like - 

 

01:07:21    Alyssa 

Which isn't the reason for my purchasing of the tickets, but it doesn't hurt. 

 

01:07:25    Rachel

Yeah, I feel like that would be the reasoning for me purchasing the tickets. And I don't even like identify as a Swifty, but it would just be cool to like see her in the wild, you know? 

 

01:07:37    Alyssa 

100%. I mean, I don't even think I'm going to see her in the wild. And I think we're going to be at the same stadium. But her Eras tour is in Toronto, and she performs on the Friday night before. This is a Sunday game. And then she's back in Toronto that week. 

 

01:07:52    Rachel

She'll be there. 

 

01:07:52    Alyssa 

Yeah. 100%. 

 

01:07:53    Rachel

There's no way she's not. 

 

01:07:55    Alyssa 

She's driving distance to Buffalo. 

 

01:07:56    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:07:57    Alyssa 

Maybe not if you're Taylor Swift. Maybe you still fly, but. 

 

01:08:00    Rachel

There's no reason that she wouldn't be there. 

 

01:08:03    Alyssa 

Correct. Unless they break up, which, come on, Trav. 

 

01:08:13    Rachel

Well, I'm excited for you. 

 

01:08:15    Alyssa 

Thank you. I'm so, I like, I take like an adaptogen that's supposed to help with dopamine production because I have low dopamine. And I had forgotten to take my pills that morning, like all my pills, my prenatal, everything. And then we bought the tickets and I, about a half hour later, I was like, oh, I never took my pills. And I literally was like, I don't even need to. I'm riding a dopamine high right now. 

 

01:08:47    Rachel

It's really nice when you can get those natural sources. 

 

01:08:51    Alyssa 

Oh man. Some tickies should do it. 

 

01:08:56    Rachel

I'm trying to become a runner. 

 

01:08:59    Alyssa 

Yeah. I saw that. Talk about a natural dopamine high. 

 

01:09:03    Rachel

Yeah. Except I think... So I've always been terrible at running and I've never understood why because I'm a pretty like fit person but I think I've uncovered why after monitoring my heart rate while I'm running. So you know how, well I don't know if you know this, like in high school I had a problem with passing out. 

 

01:09:26    Alyssa 

Hmm I didn't know this. 

 

01:09:27    Rachel

Okay so I had a problem with passing out in high school. And then in my adult life I have - 

 

01:09:34    Alyssa 

Like you would just pass out? 

 

01:09:36    Rachel

It would mostly happen in the middle of the night when I would get up to go to the bathroom quickly. 

 

01:09:40    Alyssa 

Hmm. 

 

01:09:41    Rachel

Yeah like one time I passed out while I was peeing in high school and I hit the tub so loud that it woke my dad up across the house. And then he didn't know what it was. So he was just like, oh, it must have been something outside, whatever. So then I came to again and I walked to their room and opened their door and was like, something's wrong. I don't feel good. And then passed out from standing onto the hardwood floor and split my chin open. 

 

01:10:08    Alyssa 

Wow, Rach. 

 

01:10:08    Rachel

And I like had passed out. I have just passed out a lot in my life. And okay, so this all is connected to the running. I'm getting to the meat of the story here. So I had passed out a lot. And then in my adult life, my blood pressure has always been low. My heart rate's been high and I've needed like tons of sodium just to like exist. And whenever my blood's done, my sodium's low. And I'm talking like, I can't drink plain water. I have to put salt in my water. So as I'm researching why running is so hard for me, I'm realizing that it's not normal for your heart rate to be in the 180s when you're jogging. So I was like, what's going on? So I think that I have POTS syndrome. 

 

01:10:49    Alyssa 

Okay. 

 

01:10:51    Rachel

Which I can't remember what it stands for, but it - 

 

01:10:53    Alyssa 

Hang on, I'm pulling it up right now. 

 

01:10:55    Rachel

It makes sense. 

 

01:10:59    Alyssa 

Postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, a condition that causes a rapid heart rate increase when standing up from sitting or lying. I mean, checks out.

 

01:11:10    Rachel

Right? And it can be related to hypoglycemia, which I also have. So all of this to say, I'm already doing-- 

 

01:11:16    Alyssa 

Fast heart rate, dizziness, fatigue. Yeah. 

 

01:11:19    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:11:19    Alyssa 

What do you do for it? 

 

01:11:20    Rachel

So sodium and electrolytes are a big piece of it, which I'm already doing. And then the other thing is like exercise, even though it causes exercise intolerance. Exercise is really important for like maintaining your vascular health. Anyway, it doesn't really matter except that it allows me to be more compassionate towards myself when like Cody and I were trail running and I was like, hey babe, what's your heart rate? And he was like, 105, what's yours? And I was like, 175, almost 180, and he was like, what? And I was like, I think this is why it's so hard for me to run. 

 

01:11:58    Alyssa 

Yeah. Your body's working so hard. 

 

01:12:00    Rachel

So hard. To jog. 

 

01:12:03    Alyssa 

Yeah. Yeah. That's nuts. I have been really trying to get LMNT to sponsor the podcast. And I think that you're our greatest shot right now. We should make a pitch.

 

01:12:18    Rachel

Yeah. I mean, I don't have a formal diagnosis and I'm not going to pursue it. 

 

01:12:22    Alyssa 

Yeah, but like you have a Dr. Rachel diagnosis, which is really any time that there's anything that happens medical in my household, we call Rach. And she's our informal doctor. 

 

01:12:35    Rachel

I mean, I've diagnosed for two of my other autoimmune diseases, I self -diagnosed and I was correct. So. 

 

01:12:43    Alyssa 

So you're saying there's a chance. 

 

01:12:46    Rachel

Seems like I'm a doctor now. 

 

01:12:49    Alyssa 

Zach is convinced that you could like test out. 

 

01:12:54    Rachel

I know he tells me that all the time, but I couldn't like, I don't know some of the basics, like dosage calculations. Like I'm not a math person, but I could be like a, if you give me your symptoms, I can tell you what you have. 

 

01:13:08    Alyssa 

I know. I love this. So, because you're obsessed with research. I like this about you. I also want to get you like an LMNT subscription because there's so much sodium. But it is expensive. It is on-But I love it. 

 

01:13:27    Rachel

Well, now that I have diagnosed myself with POTS, I could just, it's a health expense. Shoot. 

 

01:13:33    Alyssa 

Shoot. Write it off. 

 

01:13:35    Rachel

Yep. 

 

01:13:36    Alyssa 

If only that's how health expenses work in the United States. 

 

01:13:41    Rachel

I wish

 

01:13:41    Alyssa 

But they're heavy in sodium, but I love it. I do one a day. It's been huge for me for nursing, I think. 

 

01:13:46    Rachel

Yeah. Yeah. Love them. 

 

01:13:49    Alyssa 

Come on, LMNT. Sponsor the pod. We're already talking about ya's. 

 

01:13:52    Alyssa 

Please. I need LMNT if I'm going to become a runner. I'm trying to become a runner. 

 

01:13:56    Alyssa 

This is the pitch we have to work on. Yeah. 

 

01:13:59    Rachel

Here we go. 

 

01:13:59    Alyssa 

Let's craft it. Okay. Here we go. I hate running. I hate it. And I grew up an athlete, soccer, basketball, like running sports. And I've just like never – There are people who are like, yeah, you go and you get that runner's high. Nope. Never had it. Never had it. I like running when I'm playing something. 

 

01:14:22    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:14:22    Alyssa 

If I'm playing a game, I'll go out and play games with Sagey in the backyard, love it. The idea of going for a run, no thank you. 

 

01:14:31    Rachel

Yeah. I mean, so far I'm not really getting the runners high. My main reason for doing this was because when we did that big hike a couple weeks ago, I didn't like how high my heart rate was, so I was like, what's going on? Maybe I'm really out of shape. I guess I need to start running. 

 

01:14:50    Alyssa 

No, I just have POTS. 

 

01:14:51    Rachel

I'm pretty sure that that's what it is, but running can still improve your, like I'm still gonna keep running to try, because I was like, I don't know if I told you what happened on that hike. Did I tell you what happened? 

 

01:15:04    Alyssa 

No, all I saw was the Instagram version. 

 

01:15:07    Rachel

Okay, so we hiked the Franconia Ridge Loop, which is like nine miles, 5 ,000 feet of elevation, three summits, it's beautiful. It's like one of the most beautiful hikes in the White Mountains. 

 

01:15:23    Alyssa 

Nine miles, like nine miles up, nine miles down? 

 

01:15:25    Rachel

No. Five up and like four and a half down. 

 

01:15:28    Alyssa 

Okay. 

 

01:15:29    Rachel

Okay. So, okay. I have to be done in 20 minutes, but I got to tell this story today.

 

01:15:35    Alyssa 

Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. 

 

01:15:35    Rachel

So we left early because it was a long hike. I wanted to be hiking early. I didn't want to be on the mountain in the dark. So we left, we had like a two and a half hour drive. So we left our house at like 5:30, so I didn't poop in the morning like I usually do. So and then we're like drinking coffee or whatever and I'm like, all right, I'm gonna have to poop at some point. So I tried to go with the trailhead and I can't, there's like a bathroom, I can't. I'm like, it's fine. Though I'm like, I've never pooped in the woods, but Cody definitely knows how and can help me. So if I can find a place, whatever. So I'm like, no big deal. So there's a few times where like we're stopping to look at a waterfall and I'm like, oh, I don't really feel that good. I really need to go to the bathroom. And it's just like rock and waterfall. There's not like a good like private place to go and it's there's other hikers on the trail So I'm like, it's all right. I can hold it So cuz you don't know like sometimes the feeling will just go away. So I was just yeah for sure I think that could happen. So now the beginning of the hike is like kind of casual and then we get to the real like we're looking at three miles of rock vertical rock scrambling and I can't eat because I need to go to the bathroom. I didn't pack candy because I've never done a long hike like that before and I didn't understand that you need like instant carbs and that you might not feel well enough to eat regular food. So my blood sugar is steady dropping. So we make it to the first summit. We're like stopping trying to enjoy the views and I'm feeling like I'm gonna pass out throw up or poop myself or maybe all three. So I say to Cody, I'm like, I, I'm really sick. Um, this is not a good situation. And now also just to paint the picture, we're now in the Alpine zone, which means no trees. Okay, just rocks. And because we're at the summit, people are up there hanging out enjoying the views. And I'm like, Cody, I've literally was like, Cody, I am scared. Like, I feel like I'm going to either like poop myself or puke in front of these people, this is a bad situation. And I also, I'll be honest, I had a little bit of anxiety because I'm like, we're far away from any real bathroom. We're far away from - 

 

01:17:53    Alyssa 

Oh, well, anxiety makes a lot of sense right now. 

 

01:17:56    Rachel

Yeah, so I'm like not feeling well. So I'm like, I might have to turn around. And Cody's like, you're gonna be so upset if we turn around, like, we can figure this out. I'm like, this doesn't feel figureoutable, but okay. So I'm like, give me some chocolate out of the trail mix and I'm just gonna try to keep walking. So he's like, there's only one scramble left, which was a lie. There were two more scrambles because there were two more summits, but I believed him. And so we keep walking and eventually I'm like, all right, I can't do it, we gotta turn around. So we find this like bush on the top of this mountain. It's like not a full tree, it's a bush. I have to poop inside this bush with Cody giving me verbal cues from the outside because I don't know how to poop outside because I've never done it before. So I'm like almost crying because I feel so sick. And now and it's like windy and we're like in the clouds like we're like up in the sky okay and I'm trying to convince myself that I can do this in this tiny bush and it's like other hikers could be coming at any time. It was so bad so anyway I do it I poop in this alpine bush. 

 

01:19:09    Alyssa 

What'd you wipe with? 

 

01:19:11    Rachel

He packed toilet paper. 

 

01:19:13    Alyssa 

What a friggin guy. 

 

01:19:15    Rachel

What a man. I know. And gloves. 

 

01:19:19    Alyssa 

What? 

 

01:19:20    Rachel

Just for wiping. 

 

01:19:23    Alyssa 

Like he saw this coming? 

 

01:19:26    Rachel

He totally saw it coming. 

 

01:19:28    Alyssa 

He packed gloves. 

 

01:19:30    Rachel

Yep. He did. And even went so far as to act like I was a complete idiot and was like, when you're just take the glove off like and turn it inside out. Like yeah, I understand how that works. So anyway, I had to do this very embarrassing, terrible thing on top of the mountain. Then I was able to finish the hike. But that hike inspired my desire to improve my cardiac fitness. It was a literal shit show up there, and it was like a miracle that I finished that hike. 

 

01:20:15    Alyssa 

I also love that this was like your big date day, like you had child care for it, you prepared so much for this big date day. 

 

01:20:23    Rachel

We left our kids overnight for the first time together, like together alone, right? This was the first time, big deal. And I end up sick and having to shit on the top of a mountain, hashtag romance. 

 

01:20:39    Alyssa 

Oh my God. I love it. 

 

01:20:42    Rachel

Yeah. So 

 

01:20:42    Alyssa 

If we ever get on to armchair expert for this next book, I hope that you tell your poop story. 

 

01:20:50    Rachel

It's a gem. It's a good one. 

 

01:20:52    Alyssa 

It is a gem. Okay. Who are we talking about today? 

 

01:20:56    Rachel

Okay. Today we are talking, oh, this is actually, this is a good one. This is Alyssa Zander. 

 

01:21:03    Alyssa 

Ah, codependency. 

 

01:21:04    Rachel

Yeah. And I actually want to hear your takeaways first because you guys kind of danced on some stuff in this. 

 

01:21:09    Alyssa 

Yeah. Okay. Here's my thing with the codependency piece. I think we can't ignore that we have mirror neurons and that in the same way that like right now Beaners is into waving and smiling at anyone she sees and everyone is like, oh my God, this is the cutest thing ever and they smile back at her and yadda yadda and fills you with that oxytocin. When Zach is dysregulated, when he comes in and something happened with the Airbnb and now he's like all fired up, my whole household energy shifts. Also, I have a child who is neuroceptive sensitive and he reads the energy of the room and is really attuned to the energy of the room. I've got another child who doesn't give a flying care about the energy of the room and is less affected by it. But all this to say that like if Zach comes in and he's dysregulated, it is not just him who experiences this hard thing then. 

 

01:22:24    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:22:25    Alyssa 

And I'm like, yeah, you're in a crappy mood and your energy has now infiltrated the household. 

 

01:22:31    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:22:33    Alyssa 

And I obviously believe that everybody gets to have their hard feelings and that we should allow them to, like, he gets to feel disappointed or frustrated or whatever. And it's also true that now my three -year -old is going to be dysregulated. 

 

01:22:51    Rachel

Yeah, I think--

 

01:22:53    Alyssa 

And that just makes my life harder. 

 

01:22:55    Rachel

Throwing parenting into the mix of this is really a challenge. I think about Cody and I and like prior to kids, if he was like in a crappy mood, I would just be like, you know what, why don't you go do something and like work through this and take space. But then like now doing that, it's almost like a punishment to myself because it's like, and I believe that he deserves the time and space to process but also in the logistics of our life, that means that it's more solo parenting for me. And I think, you know, now I'm in a different season of parenthood than you guys are in right now. So now it wouldn't feel as deeply draining for me to be like, hey, why don't you go for a run and try to let some of the stress off and then come back? And then we can talk about this in depth after bedtime. That feels accessible to me now, but when my kids were babies, that didn't feel accessible or fair. It felt unfair because I also felt like, well, I also have had things happen today that have been stressful or dysregulating, and I haven't had somebody here to be like, hey, why don't you go take 15 minutes and like walk? 

 

01:24:01    Alyssa 

100%. 

 

01:24:01    Rachel

So then there was also like, sometimes feelings of resentment would come up because I would feel like this is unfair because I experienced the same emotions sometimes and I don't have anybody there to be like, here, let me take this on so that you can go deal with that. 

 

01:24:14    Alyssa 

No, I just have to have my shit together. 

 

01:24:16    Rachel

Right, or at least appear to. You have to disassociate or suppress. 

 

01:24:20    Alyssa 

That's actually what happens, yes. 

 

01:24:22    Rachel

I mean, I do it too. How else do you get - 

 

01:24:24    Alyssa 

No, it's 100%, I dissociate. 

 

01:24:25    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:24:26    Alyssa 

That's like my go -to. I just am like - 

 

01:24:27    Rachel

How do you not? 

 

01:24:29    Alyssa 

Yeah, and that's just it is like you're you're hitting the on the head pre kids was totally different for me of like, if he was dysregulated, he could be in his hard thing and I didn't take it on in the same way. Now I'm like, I need you to be my teammate here in this bedtime routine or whatever it is. And you are too dysregulated to-- you're making my life harder. You are not able to show up as my teammate in the way that I need you to. And so I need you to be regulated in order to be able to show up as my teammate. 

 

01:25:06    Rachel

Yeah. I think one thing that is helpful, and I wish that we had had this skill as a couple when the kids were younger, but when one of us is off, sometimes we'll say to each other, like can we like put this away and just work together to get through dinner and bedtime because that's usually when this stuff is happening right in the evening when everybody's edgy, and not like you have to suppress this and don't get to feel but like can you just put it in a box for two hours and then when the kids are in bed let's we'll debrief this together whatever.

 

01:25:41    Alyssa 

Yeah 

 

01:25:41    Rachel

And of course that's not always possible sometimes things are too intense or too heated but 

 

01:25:46    Alyssa 

Or it's like something that has to be just like dealt with 

 

01:25:50    Rachel

Dealt with yeah 

 

01:25:51    Alyssa 

Where it's not necessarily conflict between us It's like an outside factor. 

 

01:25:55    Rachel

It's like a stressor. It's like a work thing or yes. 

 

01:25:58    Alyssa 

Yeah. 

 

01:25:59    Rachel

Yeah 100 % and that I think it's very hard not to feel resentful when it's an outside thing that then is like taking away from your family time which it's at least for me, the time and the four of us are together feels really limited 

 

01:26:16    Alyssa 

Yeah, so it's like precious time. 

 

01:26:18    Rachel

Yeah, and I'm like, I do enough solo parenting. Please, outside force, whatever you are, please don't make me do more. Please don't pull my husband away from me when I so rarely get to parent with him. 

 

01:26:32    Alyssa 

Correct, correct. And that's where I start to lose my cools in those. In the times where it's like, he and Sage are kind of at each other or whatever, those times it feels like, because I can, in those times, typically be like, hey, what do you need in this moment so that you can be a regulated parent? And we've had enough outside conversations at this point that I can say that and he can say like, I just need a minute, can you tap in here? Or the other night, we were, Sage was gonna go do an overnight at my mother -in -law's and then the night after that, Zach was gonna be out for something at bedtime. So it was gonna be, he was doing bedtime and there's gonna be two nights where he wasn't doing bedtime. And this particular night was just like a beast of a bedtime night. And he comes like storming down the stairs, clearly annoyed with whatever request Sage has just made. And they've been kind of at each other. And I just looked at him and I said, you are not going to be doing bedtime for the next two nights. And then he like went, but he was like, he went back upstairs. And when he came down later, he was like, thank you for that reminder in the moment. I needed that. But it's only because we've had enough conversations outside the moment that I could like co -regulate him a little enough for him to be able to make it through bedtime, right? He wasn't like, oh my God, that was the most peaceful bedtime. I loved it, but it was enough for him to not be at odds with Sage the whole time. And sometimes I'm just like, do you want to switch? And I've just tapped in and we've switched, even if it's we switch for a minute. 

 

01:28:25    Rachel

We do that too. 

 

01:28:26    Alyssa 

So he can step out. Those times it feels okay, but it's when these outside forces come in where it's like, he's in a bad mood and we were having a good time and now your bad mood is ruining our a good time. 

 

01:28:40    Rachel

Yeah, I think sometimes when we talk about codependency and trying to move away from codependency, there's nuance, right? Because when you're in close relationship, there is interdependency. So you're not saying Zach has to be regulated all the time in order for you to be regulated and he never gets to have a hard feeling. But the reality of it, the logistical reality of it is like, when you're trying to parent together and somebody is totally off, it changes the whole vibe. 

 

01:29:17    Alyssa 

Yeah, and it's different if it's like sometimes, here or there. And there've been different seasons in our life depending on what skills we'd built up until that point or what our capacity was in that season or whatever, where it's like, if you're dysregulated here and there, fine, but if you're a day in and day out in a dysregulated state. 

 

01:29:36    Rachel

That's different. 

 

01:29:37    Alyssa 

Oh, man, I am and I don't have a lot of patience for it to be honest because I'm like you're making my life harder 

 

01:29:43    Rachel

Also, it's the capacity, right? Like I think about there are times when which Cody doesn't really get called out anymore because the nature of his job has changed But there were times when he would get called out and I would be like, that's a bummer but like that's okay.

 

01:29:56    Alyssa 

Yeah, 

 

01:29:57    Rachel

And there were times that he'd get called out where I'd be like, I hate your job and I hate what it does to this family. Same situation. Different capacity. 

 

01:30:07    Alyssa 

100%. Totally. Totally. We actually, um, Zach shared with me, Sage was maybe like two -ish, and he said, something came up and I was like, oh yeah, I forgot about that. And he was like, yeah, it was something that came up a lot in Sage's like first few months of life. And I was like, why didn't you ever bring it up? And he was like, I kind of just had this general rule of thumb that I never shared with you that for the first year postpartum, I was just going to sweep some stuff under the rug that I knew was like not really how you generally show up and probably wasn't going to be our norm going forward. And it was just that you're tired and trying to parent a kid. And I was like, oh, my gosh, thank you for this secret grace you've been giving me that I didn't even know about, that is so kind. And he he he does. He is so patient with me. And I definitely have a double standard here where I'm allowed to have a hard time more often than he is. 

 

01:31:08    Rachel

Oh, same. 

 

01:31:10    Alyssa

Where like when I'm fired up or I'm drained or I'm whatever, I'm like, yeah, I'm allowed to be in this mood. I get to have a hard time. I don't have to be happy all the time. Yeah, I'm exhausted. I'm stretched. I'm whatever. But if he does it, I have less patience and there's less of a limit for it. 

 

01:31:28    Rachel

I definitely noticed that in myself because there's a part of me, and this part has gotten quieter over the years, but there's a part of me that's like, well, of course I feel this way, because I've been doing this, this and this. 

 

01:31:41    Alyssa

100%. 

 

01:31:41    Rachel

And I have this like ... 

 

01:31:44    Alyssa

I carry more of the load. 

 

01:31:46    Rachel

Right. Which is true in some areas of our life and not true in other areas of our life, which now that my kids are not babies and I'm not chronically exhausted, I can see. But in that time period, I was just like, yeah, you don't understand my life. You wouldn't get why I'm so burnt out right now. And I get to be crabby because I've been with the kids all day and I'm up all night breastfeeding and on and on and on, right?  

 

01:32:13    Alyssa

Yeah. It's so real. But that's where I feel like I just like danced with her was it like the realities of codependency when I wasn't parenting versus in parenthood are different for me, that I'm like, sometimes I need you to be regulated because I need you to co -regulate our child or our children because I'm trying to cook dinner and you're on them or whatever. And so if you're dysregulated and then they're dysregulated while I'm trying to cook dinner, it just is making my life harder. 

 

01:32:46    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:32:47    Alyssa

And that it's not I need you to be regulated so that I can be regulated as much as I need you to be able to show up and parent with intention so that I'm not then solo parenting. 

 

01:33:00    Rachel

Yeah mm -hmm yeah that's like I it used to really get under my skin when like I would be with the kids all day and then Cody would come home and something would happen and he would be irritated. 

 

01:33:11    Alyssa

Correct. Which still drives me bonkers. 

 

01:33:13    Rachel

Not for me as much anymore because I'm like even though he hasn't been with them all day. He has had a full day and he gets to be irritated when their behavior is irritating. But I had this part of myself that was like, no, you don't get to be annoyed. You haven't been with them all day like I have and I'm staying calm right now, so you need to be able to do the same. 

 

01:33:30    Alyssa

Correct, I still have it. 

 

01:33:32    Rachel

Well, you still have a baby. 

 

01:33:32    Alyssa

You've been with them for 14 seconds and you're already dysregulated by this? Buckle up, bud. 

 

01:33:36    Rachel

You still have a baby. So that came up for me when I had a baby also. So, and yeah, my perspective has shifted as the kids have gotten older. And also, like, I really discounted, Cody, like, takes care of our whole financial life, like every, not just like – 

 

01:33:57    Rachel

There's so much that Zach does that goes unseen. 

 

01:33:59    Alyssa

Correct. 

 

01:34:01    Rachel

Like, it's almost embarrassing if I say how little I have to do with our financial life. 

 

01:34:06    Alyssa

Or even just like so many logistics, he runs everything to do with our Airbnbs. 

 

01:34:11    Rachel

Same with Cody. 

 

01:34:11    Alyssa

Like everything. And if anything comes up, if their cleaner doesn't, like anything, he handles all the logistics. We are currently considering a move. And the other day we were chatting about it and I had nothing but critiques to bring. And he has done every single logistic, connecting with realtors, looking at different, like all different things. We're looking at building versus not stick builders, modular, like all these things. And he, I haven't literally done nothing. He drew up a design for like builders of like our, what design we would like for house architecture, background, whatever. And I had nothing but critiques and he said nothing. He just kind of took all this. And then I later was like, Hmm, Alyssa you've done not one single bit of this and just showed up and critiqued it. And I was like, all right. I didn't have the capacity to say, hey, I'm sorry that I only have critiqued this, that I'm still working on. But I was like, next time I saw him, I was like, thank you so much for all that you're doing for this move and looking into this. 

 

01:35:26    Rachel

Yeah, I think a lot of my issues with feeling annoyed with him, if he got annoyed with the kids after just coming home from work or something, Like I was not thinking about, all I could think about was myself, my own experience, how hard my day had been. And I wasn't thinking like, yep, he's also had a full day and yep, it's been outside the home. He hasn't had to parent, but he has his own stressors that I don't even know about. Because one thing that I love to say when I'm dysregulated is you don't understand my life. And he could-- love to say it. It's so dumb and so rude and not true. But I love saying that. And the fact of the matter is, there's so much about his day -to -day at work that I don't know or fully understand. And he does a great job of not bringing it home, which I'm so grateful for, but then I'm like not kind to him because he doesn't want to deal with our nine -year -old slamming her door in his face and telling him to shut up. And it's like, I have no idea what happened for you at work today, but I never had the capacity to think that way when I had nursing children. 

 

01:36:35    Alyssa

Yeah, I'm just so close to being at capacity right now. 

 

01:36:40    Rachel

And I think that's important to remember in close relationship is that there are seasons where you're not gonna have the capacity to go say sorry for complaining about the house buildup thing that he's doing. There's just seasons of relationship with your spouse, with your kids, with other people in your life that it's not going to, you're not going to have the capacity to always behave in alignment with your values. 

 

01:37:11    Alyssa

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that grace. And for the glimpse of hope that there will again be more capacity. 

 

01:37:20    Rachel

You'll feel compassion again. Cody's standing here off screen. I wonder what he's thinking right now. He's just shaking his head like this. 

 

01:37:37    Alyssa

Poor Zach. 

 

01:37:39    Rachel

Yeah, poor Zach. But it's a season, so. 

 

01:37:43    Alyssa

Thanks for your patience, Zach. Today's our anniversary, actually. 

 

01:37:47    Rachel

Happy anniversary. 

 

01:37:50    Alyssa

Together 12 years, married 8 today. And I, for our dating anniversary, real quick for our dating anniversary, which is in July, this is September, in July I wrote him a card and I wrote it in the car while we were driving to my parents and I was in the backseat of the van, kids were sleeping, and then couldn't find it. Our anniversary was going to be while we were at my parents' house. Couldn't find it, whatever. I was like, I have a card for you. It's somewhere in one of these suitcases, blah, blah, blah. Fast forward, I had stuck it in a pocket in the backseat of the van, and so I just found it last week. It was like, hey, remember that anniversary card? Found it. I'm just gonna give it to you for our marriage anniversary. 

 

01:38:31    Rachel

I'm just gonna wait for the next one. 

 

01:38:32    Alyssa

Yeah, and he was like, yeah, great. 

 

01:38:35    Rachel

Hilarious. Oh, man. 

 

01:38:38    Alyssa

So good. All right, I love ya. 

 

01:38:40    Rachel

All right, I'm off to soccer practice. 

 

01:38:42    Alyssa

Yeah, you got this. 

 

01:38:43    Rachel

Love you, bye. 

 

01:38:45    Alyssa

Bye. 

 

01:38:45    Alyssa

Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.

Connect with Alyssa Zander:

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