Raising Confident Kids with Eli Harwood, MA, LPC

 

00:00:00    Alyssa

You're listening to Voices of Your Village and I'm so stoked about today's episode. I got to hang out again with my friend Eli Harwood of Attachment Nerd to chat about her latest book, Raising Securely Attached Kids. In this conversation today, we get to dive into how to raise confident kids. And y 'all, her latest book, she has Securely Attached and then Raising Securely Attached Kids. I have quoted Raising Securely Attached Kids in my upcoming book because it is just so good. And the way that she delivers information, it feels so accessible. Eli is a licensed therapist. She's the creator of Attachment Nerd. She's the author of the book Securely Attached and Raising Securely Attached Kids and has more than 17 years of clinical experience helping people process relational traumas and develop secure attachment relationships with their children and partners. Eli has three children, one husband, four cats, you heard that right, and it's a good story, and probably, honestly, the only thing I don't love about her is that fact, and an extraordinary number of plants. Also, I'm kidding, for all you cat people out there, someone needs to love the cats. Someone's got to do it, so thanks for doing that for us. I'm so jazzed to share this episode with you. I could hang out with Eli forever and I feel like I learn from her every single time I get to hang with her. Head out and snag her book right now, Raising Securely Attached Kids. I kid you not, I just texted two people yesterday who were asking me for book recommendations and I was like, this is one you need right now. Go snag it now. All right, folks, let's dive in. 

 

00:01:55    Alyssa

Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together. 

 

00:02:13    Alyssa

It's so good and I fully love it. I'm not lying. I am also – I should ask your permission – quoting you in my next book from this book where I was going to write about attachment stuff and I was like, actually, I have the perfect – I was looking for a resource and I was like, I have the perfect resource in my house right now. So thank you. It's so good. 

 

00:02:39    Eli

Oh my gosh. You're so welcome. And of course, you have my permission to quote it and – 

 

00:02:42    Alyssa

Perfect. 

 

00:02:43    Eli

I am just beyond honored that you are taking the time in the midst of your chaos and a baby and all the things to read this book. So I'm so glad its-- 

 

00:02:52    Alyssa

It's a gift. 

 

00:02:53    Eli

--feeling helpful and not like another thing on the list. 

 

00:02:56    Alyssa

No, it is. We often get asked our recommendations for parenting books and whatever, and this is an easy addition to that list. 

 

00:03:05    Eli

Yay. I'm so glad. I'm so, so glad. 

 

00:03:08    Alyssa

Thank you. Thank you. Let me pull up my doc on things we're chatting about today. How are you? 

 

00:03:17    Eli

I love it. I'm good. I really wanted to say first things first. How are you? How are you, Mama? 

 

00:03:22    Alyssa

Yeah. Honestly, good. I'm on Zoloft now. Or some off -brand of Zoloft. 

 

00:03:26    Eli

Team Zoloft. Sertraline. I can tell you because I'm on it. 

 

00:03:29    Alyssa

Okay. Great. There it is. 

 

00:03:31    Eli

Fabulous. 

 

00:03:31    Alyssa

Love it. Yeah, it was one of those things where it is not how I anticipated postpartum depression presenting. And so I kept being like, I don't think that's what this is. And then finally was like, oh, she started sleeping through the night and winter turned into spring and I could get outside more and I was moving my body and all that. And I was like, I'm still not at my normal baseline. 

 

00:04:00    Eli

For me, it was about capacity. Postpartum depression presented as my nervous system couldn't handle things I previously could handle. And it was like noises felt louder, spilled milk felt more curdly, everything just felt overwhelming and I couldn't handle things at my normal capacity. And I felt irritated and agitated. And when I went on Zoloft, it was like, oh, I feel like myself again. Like, yeah, this is hard still, and there's still milk spilling and there's still screaming happening, but I can handle it. 

 

00:04:35    Alyssa

Yeah. That resonates where I was like, maybe this is just what two kids is like, and this is going to be the transition. And I just kept saying to people in my life, I was like, honestly, I've been through harder things. And it didn't feel as hard as this feels. Yeah. Yeah. And but I like wasn't crying all the time. I wasn't, you know, essentially like, yeah, 

 

00:04:57    Eli

I don't know that I ever cried in my depression. It wasn't crying. It was agitation and it was overwhelm. 

 

00:05:03    Alyssa

Yeah, that resonates. Yeah. And I just like couldn't really feel joy. 

 

00:05:07    Eli

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

 

00:05:09    Alyssa

There was one moment where I was sitting there and I just kind of from the outside observed and was like, this is something usually I'd feel joy in. I'm like, I'm not feeling that. And that's when I was like, hey, doctor. And she was like, yeah, let's go. And I have an incredible doctor who was just like, let's rock and roll. Yeah. 

 

00:05:30    Eli

I love it. I love that you have that. I love that you did that. And I love that you're feeling like yourself. 

 

00:05:35    Alyssa

Yeah, it's so cool to feel like myself. 

 

00:05:38    Eli

The best. 

 

00:05:39    Alyssa

It's the best. It is the best. How are you? How are things going as you're prepping for book stuff and all that? 

 

00:05:45    Eli

It's good. I mean, it's wild. I am definitely tired, but I am pushing. We are like pushing hard and we're like, let's do this thing. 

 

00:05:54    Alyssa

How did you feel after your last book published? 

 

00:05:58    Eli

I had what I would call postpartum publishing depression. It was such a weird experience to put it out in the world and then just be like, and now what? Now what? What do I do now? But I think that since I've gone through it once, I feel a little more confident of like, oh, this is what it feels like. It's just an odd thing. It's vulnerable, like you feel exposed in a way. 

 

00:06:21    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:06:21    Eli

I don't know. I processed that it's so different for me to get a negative comment on my social media or something like that because it stays for 24 hours and then it's like, who cares? But when you get book reviews that aren't totally positive, they are there forever. You're just sitting with them forever. So I don't know. There's a lot of interesting aspects to it. 

 

00:06:41    Alyssa

Agreed. And I felt like when it was book review related, I'm like, well, I can't go back and change the book. 

 

00:06:48    Eli

Right. 

 

00:06:48    Alyssa

But social media, I can take it and be like, oh yeah, I can do a follow -up post that goes more into that. Let's rock and roll. And with the book, it was just like, well, there it is. 

 

00:06:59    Eli

Which is actually a lot like parenting. 

 

00:07:01    Alyssa

Yeah, sure. 

 

00:07:03    Eli

You know, you do your best, you edit as you go, but there's a point, I think, at which you're like, well, I can't, that happened. 

 

00:07:11    Alyssa

There it is. 

 

00:07:13    Eli

I'm gonna have to do something else or do something new, or I don't know, it's wild, but anyway. Yeah. I'm mostly good. 

 

00:07:19    Alyssa

Well, I'm so, so stoked for this one and obviously here to support you in any way that we can. 

 

00:07:26    Eli

Thank you. 

 

00:07:27    Alyssa

Yeah, I'm currently writing book two. 

 

00:07:30    Eli

What is it? 

 

00:07:30    Alyssa

Now, it's the kindergarten to fifth grade range. So essentially Tiny Humans, Big Emotions, but this next age group up. 

 

00:07:37    Eli

I love it. 

 

00:07:38    Alyssa

Yeah, jazzed.  So much social stuff that comes into play that-- 

 

00:07:42    Eli

So excited for it. 

 

00:07:43    Alyssa

--you don't have in the same way in those tiny humans, so. 

 

00:07:46    Eli

Totally. I can't wait to read it. 

 

00:07:48    Alyssa

Thank you. It's fun to be back in the writing process, honestly. I'm enjoying it right now. 

 

00:07:54    Eli

Good. I'm so glad. I love that. 

 

00:07:56    Alyssa

Yeah. And it's where this is going to be referenced, Raising Securely Attached Kids. So good. Also, can we just for a second, how do you know Hilary Swank? 

 

00:08:08    Eli

We just became friends through this whole process. 

 

00:08:12    Alyssa

That's not a full sentence. I need more information. 

 

00:08:16    Eli

She followed me on social media and she has twins. And so I was like, hey, twin mama, how you doing? This is crazy. Two babies at the same time. And then we just like started chatting and sending, I don't know. She is a unbelievably amazing human being. I just freaking love her. So have you had famous people follow you? I'm sure you have. 

 

00:08:37    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:08:37    Eli

It's interesting, right? It's like, oh, wait a minute. Okay, you're just a person. You're trying to figure out parenting, but also like, ah, this is so cool. She's the only one that I've developed a real friendship with. 

 

00:08:48    Alyssa

Yeah, I have one of those and we've become texting friends and I've connected with him and his wife and it is wild because I actually, for me, didn't consume any of his stuff as a famous human. So for me, when he started following, a lot of people that I know were like, oh my god, what? And I didn't feel the starstruck piece because I was like, I don't really know him actually. Like, I know that he's famous, but I don't know. And yeah, versus like there's another human who I have a DM relationship with who I do consume her stuff and I am like butterfly -y the entire time. 

 

00:09:27    Eli

Uh -huh. Totally. Like a new date. 

 

00:09:30    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. 

 

00:09:31    Eli

It's fun. Super fun. 

 

00:09:33    Alyssa

Okay. I have first a question. 

 

00:09:37    Eli

Okay. 

 

00:09:38    Alyssa

One of the things I'm curious about as I was reading through is how you can break down the difference between, it was around like boundaries. It was the boy with the shoes, the Jordans, where he had like kicked him off. And I was like, ooh, what was coming up for me? And one thing that I think is tough in the attachment side of things is like how to set boundaries for yourself or for them while also being flexible to meet them where they are. 

 

00:10:10    Eli

Mm -hmm. So you have to set the relationship. And this is why I wrote this book. Because if our children can feel our love, not just we love them, but we are doing the things that actively help them as an individual absorb our love through the experience of synchronicity, support, understanding, play, all those things. So if we're cultivating that relationship, then, when we offer a boundary or a limit, or we, you know, set something down that is like here, this is something I need from you, we might sometimes set down a boundary in a moment when our kids can't handle it because there's something else going on. They're going to let us know in that moment. So when I'm telling that story, there's a relational dynamic, just so that everyone who hasn't read the book yet knows, like, essentially, I'm working with this family, and this kid comes home from school and he's had a horrible day and he kicks his shoes off and they're not exactly where they're supposed to be according to the boundaries, right? The boundaries is they go right in this one place. And the dad gets home and he is so frustrated that this kid's shoes are right in the middle of the walkway and so he marches upstairs and that's what he addresses with him. And he completely misses that this kid is under the covers and he's a teenager and he's struggling and it's like, so there's a couple things here. One, the established relationship isn't there, that the kid would go, dad, I had a horrible day. That's our primary thing. My first chapter in the book is the most important lesson. The most important lesson we're teaching our children is I am here for you. And around that, we teach a myriad of other lessons, like please put your shoes in the closet, right? This is where it goes. But we teach those lessons in the context of the relationship that we build with them. And so we're, we want to be thinking, how, how can I teach X, Y, or Z while simultaneously continuing to teach: I am here for you. Now, if this scenario was the dad comes home and the kids are, the shoes are kicked off and he goes upstairs and the kids, you know, playing video games is totally fine and, you know, he's like, hey, you need to do that. And the kid's like, Oh, you're always on my butt about this stuff. Like get off my butt about this stuff. Right. there's a moment to pause and be like, Hey, let's talk about why this matters. Here's why it matters. Because when we have stuff in the middle, someone could get hurt, you know, blah, blah, blah, Uncle Gerald comes in in his wheelchair, like it, we want it to be accessible. Here's what's happening. Like there can be conversations around the boundaries that are nuanced and complex when our kids are just struggling to get the boundary, right. But we want our kids to feel that the boundaries are not more important than their well being that all of these things are in concert together and we're sort of adapting. I think of what triage nurses do. You know, all the stuff comes into the emergency room and they're like, yeah, you're a couple of stitches. You're a broken femur. You're a heart attack. Heart attack first, broken femur second, stitches third. Right? And we're always kind of doing that with the things we're teaching our kids. And so we want the primary thing that we're teaching them to be. What is going on for you emotionally and your mental health and your physical well -being, those are my primary care. Your growth comes right after that. I want you to learn all these things. I want you to grow. But if you're not okay, that matters to me. 

 

00:13:36    Alyssa

Yeah, I love this. Actually, just this morning on the way to school, I was bringing Sagey, three and a half, to school and Beaners, Mila, Mila Bean, Beaners, is in her car seat, six months old, and she was chatting to herself and he started yelling at her to like, stop saying that, you can't be here, stop talking. And I was like, inside, I'm like, that's rude. Also, she's gonna learn to do this with you, right? Like you're modeling for her. And then like sat with it, and this isn't his norm. That's not how he normally engages with her. And so what I said to him was, hey, bud, And I hear that you're not being kind to Mila, and I know that you love her, so I'm wondering what's going on. Because more important than he's in trouble for not being kind to Mila right now is what's going on? 

 

00:14:34    Eli

Yeah. Well, and you're modeling for him at this stage of his development to look inward. You know, we manage our behavior as adults by looking inward. That's the skill set we want our kids to have. And so we're focusing on what is the internal state that's driving your external behavior, kid? What's up? You okay? What's bothering you? You know, and half the time, you know, there's something there we didn't realize. You know, I mean, a lot of kids have auditory processing stuff. Like who knows, like maybe there's something about the way that volume is hitting his ears that it is a level of dysregulation he can't cope with. And let's get him some noise -canceling headphones for the car. You know, or perhaps it's also just feelings is about a six -month -old baby who has really altered his universe. He used to drive in the car alone with mommy, and now there's somebody else here. 

 

00:15:25    Alyssa

Actually, I don't usually bring him to school. And so he said, why are you here and not Gabby? And I was like, yeah, we have a different routine this morning. Things feel off. That makes sense. 

 

00:15:36    Eli

This is unexpected. This is unexpected, and that is hard for kids. 

 

00:15:40    Alyssa

Yeah, exactly. And I was like, oh, okay, now this makes sense. You're not just a jerk. You are having a hard time with something that's out of your routine. And now that makes sense. When we're looking at the boundaries, I love that you talk about rewards in your book. I am curious, can you break down the like setting of boundaries without using rewards? I think sometimes this can get kind of muddy. I'm thinking of like even like a bedtime routine and if books are the reward or or that's how they're presented of like, gotta keep moving through this or we won't have time for books or we'll get to have an extra book if you get your jammies on right now, you know, like it just looking at that, what does that look like and how do we navigate those? 

 

00:16:26    Eli

So what I want everyone to develop is a much deeper understanding of how rewarding connection is as human beings and that we don't have to create these external, you'll get this or you won't get that, or this behavioral model that says our children are going to only be motivated by being given things that are terrible so they move away from them, or given things that are pleasurable so they move towards them. We're more nuanced than that as a species. We love to be in sync with others. So when we're teaching, we don't have to have manipulative tools. We don't have to. Now, here's something I want to get clear on. I absolutely do all of those things at times.  We all do those things at times. There is no one out there who hasn't said to their kid, listen, did you want that? This is what you're going to need to do to get it. Of course we do that. But we tend to do that in moments where we're dysregulated 

 

00:17:20    Alyssa

Or we're like, I need compliance in behavior from you right now over anything else. 

 

00:17:26    Eli

Because of the circumstances, the situation, our own exhaustion, whatever the thing is. But the best forms of teaching, the most effective forms of teaching involve a regulated grownup who is being creative and connected in that moment. So, you know, bedtime routine is not something you're getting as a reward. It's just, this is what we do. And when they're sad that there's not something going a certain way, it's like, this is hard. You know, I mean, one of the things I probably would have said in that moment in the back of the car would be like, oh, it's really different and unexpected that we're in the car right now. And you're kind of wishing that your baby sister wasn't here babbling at you. Are you kind of having a moment where you just wanting some silence and chill time in the car. You know, what's it like when Gabby's here? You know, it's like you're helping them process that. But it's not about how do I get you to do something or not do something, it's what's it like to feel known and seen and together. So in a bedtime routine, you know, it's time for bed. And listen, I have twin four -year -olds, so just know, this is a absolute shit show. On many, many, many nights. As they develop and grow, it becomes less so. My nine -year -old can put himself to bed. It's magical. You know, I come in, I give him a kiss, we read a book, whatever, but it's like, good night, buddy. And he has nights where he's like, I don't want to go to bed. I'm like, I hear you. Good night. I'm turning the light off, and he goes to bed. It's like, wow. But there's an ethos that we want to have with our kids, which is like, I am the guide. I am going to help guide you in this thing, and this is what we're going to do. And I'm going to get creative. I will say, do you want to walk across my body like I'm a bridge to get to bed? There's like a little tiny floor couch thing and a bed with my twins, and so often I will just become the bridge, and they will walk their bodies over me, and they get there. That's a tool that doesn't involve rewarding or punishing them. It's just helping their brains get online with getting with the program, here's what we're doing. Being creative and curious and connected is much more powerful than rewards and punishments. 

 

00:19:26    Alyssa

I love that message of how rewarding connection is. Sometimes when it's like a weekend, I'm like, oh, what are we going to do? Let's plan an activity, whatever. And 100 % of the time we end up coming back to actually what he really wants is just to hang out with us. And so if we're off and we're on the go and there's things then that we're doing or we're chatting with other people and we're engaging, if it's really about how do we want to fill his cup right now, it's just hanging out with us. And it doesn't mean we always have that. Sometimes we do socialize with other people and whatever. But when it's like, hey, we want to fill his cup today, instead of necessarily going on an outing, it can be, oh, we're just gonna hang out and play together. 

 

00:20:09    Eli

So I want you all to understand something that I didn't write about explicitly in the book. It's definitely in the book in general, but I've been thinking about this a lot lately. One weird thing about writing books is all the thoughts you have after you write your book. 

 

00:20:21    Alyssa

100%. 

 

00:20:21    Eli

Oh, I should have put that in there. I should have put that in there. But anyway. So when you listen to music, what is so satisfying when you're listening to a type of music you love is the synchronicity between the instruments and the voices, right? And there's harmony, right? And that harmony is not about two sounds being exactly alike. It's about two sounds finding similar vibrations at their different notes, right? That connection that comes together. So, the word I would use to describe this is synchronous, so when there's synchronicity, there's a musicality in our relationships. It's that feeling of like with-ness, you know? You're in a really goofy mood and you're cracking up and someone starts cracking up with you and that amplifies the joy of that moment, right? Or you're really sad and like something awful has happened and someone is capable of coming in and going, I'm so sorry this is happening to you. And they're feeling it with you and they're offering you support and you can feel that. It's a positive experience even though you're in pain, right? And so we're working to create as much of this synchronicity as we can, which by the way, statistically, for a secure dynamic is about 30 to 50 % of the time. So it's not all the time. In fact, it's an F in every other category. It's a passing grade for parenting. But we wanna create that synchronicity that says I'm with you. And that's the parent's leadership to do that. You know, with one of my kids, it's absolutely moving our bodies. She experiences synchronicity in movement. It's like, let's go on a hike. Let's go on a run. Let's play this game, this tickle game. Pick me up here. Will you give me a massage? For one of my other kids, it's eye contact. I mean, she just wants to gaze into my eyes and words. There's a sort of meshing of our bodies into each other that she just loves and it's so sweet. And I love you, mom. I love you, too. For my son, it's doing the things he loves, like it's baking together, it's reading a specific book together, it's like activities. And you can probably hear there's something of like the love languages concept here, but it's I am allowing my nervous system to engage your nervous system, to join you, to stay separate still. I'm not becoming the same note as you. I am me, you are you, but we're finding a way to merge those, I'm sounding really hippy -dippy here, vibrations together and feel connected. And the more we learn how to create that type of relational experience with our children, the easier it is to do all the other things in parenting. 

 

00:23:00    Alyssa

Well, and I think that that's something when we think of like the emotional bank account piece of like when we are pouring into them in those connecting ways. And I think what you hit on that's so important and love language-y is that you're connecting with them in the way that they feel connected. That if you did with your son what your daughter loved, that might not feel connecting for them. But when you connect with them and you pour into that, and it doesn't actually have to take a lot of time necessarily, but when you connect with them in those ways, you're pouring into that bank account so that then when I pop in and I say, hey bud, can you help me with something? Then he's like more apt to be like, sure, because we're in relationship with each other than if I have not connected to him at all, and I've been correcting all the things he's doing, harping on him. Then when I say, hey, bud, can you help me with something? He's like, no. 

 

00:23:56    Eli

Right. What?  Well, because he's living in a defensive state. 

 

00:24:00    Alyssa

Right. So when we're not connected. 

 

00:24:01    Eli

Right. That connection is regulating us. The co -regulation is that fancy term for, I am using my nervous system to help you regulate your nervous system and vice versa, and we're sort of experiencing that synchronicity. and therefore we're bonding, right? And you think about in your life, you know, the people who feel like your people, they get you, they see you, they're for you. You know, there's this like joining that they can do in your life. And imagine them asking you for something, right? And your nervous system is like, of course, of course. Now imagine the people in your life that are just always telling you what you're doing wrong. And listen, we do have to give our kids feedback, but in the context of a secure relationship, that feedback lands differently. 

 

00:24:49    Alyssa

100%. I think of like 14 -year -old me who – 14 -year -old me experienced trauma right at the beginning of 14, and then I then got caught in a bunch of behaviors throughout that year, right? I can picture my purse on the counter, and my parents had pulled cigarettes and a lighter and put it in a plastic bag and left it next to my purse on the counter. And they were like, what's this? And I was like, I mean, you know what it is. And they were like, smoking isn't allowed here or something along those lines. And they were like, we're throwing them away. And they just threw away the cigarettes and the lighter. And like, first of all, I got it in the first place. I can get it again. And no one was like, hey, why are you smoking? 

 

00:25:36    Eli

Yeah, no curiosity. 

 

00:25:37    Alyssa

What's going on here? No curiosity. It was just don't do this. And like had there been security in that relationship or anything from them outside, it reminds me of the shoes actually. Where the dad just comes in, he's like, don't kick shoes all over instead of a like, oh, what's going on, bud? Your shoes were in the way and you're hiding under covers right now, what's going on? Now, Alyssa, you're sneaking out of the house and smoking cigarettes and you're 14, what's going on? 

 

00:26:08    Eli

Right, well, and being curious. Because there's a lot of different reasons that 14 -year -olds sneak out of the house and smoke cigarettes. There's a lot of different reasons. Some of those reasons involve just wanting to belong, trying to fit in, seeing other kids doing it, but also trying to regulate. Because you've had a trauma and you don't know how to talk about it, you don't know what it means, and you're convinced it means you're a bad kid, and so you might as well just be a bad kid. Right? 

 

00:26:33    Alyssa

Yeah. And just like treading water. 

 

00:26:34    Eli

So we want to come with curiosity. 

 

00:26:36    Alyssa

Treading water, trying to stay afloat, and like, this is something that's keeping me a float. 

 

00:26:41    Eli

Yes. Yes. 

 

00:26:42    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. But that curiosity piece is so huge in this from the parental side, and it's where I think we can get stuck in responding to behavior because we as parents are like, well, I can't have you smoking. Right? Like, it's not okay to be smoking. 

 

00:26:56    Eli

But that's a control mindset. That's a control mindset. And I think that's one of the things I talk about in chapter two of my book is that our mindsets really matter, and our influence over our children is a precious resource, and one that does over time diminish to some degree, right? We have a lot more influence over our babies than we do over our four year olds, over our 12 year olds, and certainly our 18, 19, 20, 26, 37 year olds. So we want to honor the resource of that influence. And when we get into control mindsets, we actually diminish the influence because if I am going to try to make you do something or be something or feel something or act a certain way, that I'm losing trust with you because I've just proven to you that I am not able to handle your developmental process. I mean, I'm imagining that same scenario because I guarantee at some point I'm gonna find something in my teenagers' rooms when we hit that point. It's going to happen. I don't think that I'm gonna parent in such a way that they aren't going to explore the world and make choices that are shady because that's one of their goals in adolescence is to try stuff that I don't want them to try. So when I find that thing, I actually do like that your parents put it out on the counter. Actually, I do, because I think it's really great to give teenagers an opportunity to process a little bit without having to initially process that. So it's like, oh, you've been caught. This thing has been caught. Let's give you a minute so that you can just sort of think about it and think about the fact that we're going to have a conversation. It's like a signal. 

 

00:28:23    Alyssa

Ah, It wasn't that. It was out on the counter for me to like, when I walk back into this room, they're there next to said contents, you know, just to be 

 

00:28:33    Eli

It felt punitive. 

 

00:28:34    Alyssa

A hundred percent. 100%. Yeah. Found it and you're in trouble and it's going in the garbage. 

 

00:28:39    Eli

Yeah. So I… 

 

00:28:40    Alyssa

Not a found it, think about it. 

 

00:28:42    Eli

Yeah. I would just give that child the chance to go, I got caught, and to not have to process the I got caught feelings right in that moment so that then when you do have a conversation, maybe there's a little note that's just like, hey, found this, we're going to talk about it later. XOXO. Mom, dad, whoever. And then when you come back together, it's like, okay, fill me in. What am I missing? Tell me about this. Tell me where you got it. Tell me what the experience is. I want to know what all of it means. And I'm going to ask you those deeper layered questions, you know? Hey, I know that you know this is like literally like an awful thing to your body. Are you feeling like your body doesn't deserve good things? Are you feeling pressure? Are you stressed out? What's going on, my love. You know, and you're still going to ultimately throw the cigarettes and the lighter away, but you're going to not throw away the trust and bond you have with your child in that process. 

 

00:29:42    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:29:42    Eli

It's, I'm here for you. It's not, I'm your parole officer, you've been busted. 

 

00:29:48    Alyssa

Correct. 

 

00:29:49    Eli

We're not busting our children. We are catching them, not to give them punishment to help them, to hold them. I got you. I'm going to catch you in my loving arms and not I'm going to catch you in the badness. 

 

00:30:08    Alyssa

Well, I think it's a part of, I quote, we're working a few different spots in our next book, but one of the sections is under obedience culture, which is for you that like control mindset. And I love this, that 'a well -behaved child isn't always an emotionally well child and an emotionally well child isn't always well -behaved'. And I think we can have that perspective of like, oh, well, if they're well -behaved, it's because they're emotionally well. And the truth is that sometimes our emotionally well kids are like, yeah, I feel safe to push boundaries and to share my hard stuff with you and to take risks, which is something that I want to dive a little deeper into that you say like learning always involves failure, but failure doesn't have to involve shame and isolation. How do we help kids take risks?  

 

00:31:02    Eli

Well, a couple of things. One, we can't be hovering. So our energy says a lot to our kids about where they can go in the room and where they can go in the world. So from day one, we want to be working on our own anxiety and we want to recognize my job is not to prevent my child from experiencing suffering, pain, or discomfort. My job is to make sure my child doesn't go through those things without support. So they're going to walk across that room, and when they start walking, they're going to fall. And sometimes they're going to fall in ways that hurt. That's okay. That's a part of the process. We want to make sure they're not falling off the side of a deck where they're going to break their leg. If we can, to all those parents whose children have ever broken their legs, it doesn't mean you failed. It happens. 

 

00:31:48    Alyssa

We're going to try to keep them out of the street where they'll get hit by a car.

 

00:31:51    Eli

 Yes. Life and limb, of course. That's what we're trying to do. And, I think we often take that too far, where it becomes, I don't want you to feel pain, and so now I'm hovering. Then what we rob our children of when we do that is the capacity to recognize they can handle that pain. 

 

00:32:09    Alyssa

100%. 

 

00:32:10    Eli

I mean, a learning process is always awkward. And I think about even my process of posting on social media and starting to educate. I've said things on social media that I've gotten some feedback on that weren't actually all that helpful to certain people in certain ways. I was like, oh, that's uncomfortable. But I can tolerate that comfort so that I can keep learning, keep growing, figure out what to do next, make repairs, move forward. And that ability in that moment to go, ooh, this is hard and and uncomfortable, but I can handle it, keeps me from defensiveness, keeps me from projecting. That's what we want our kids to be able to do on a physical and emotional level is have some grit. And so I think, there's a mythology out there that if we are offering our children connection and support and compassion, that we aren't also allowing them to experience consequences of their actions. And this is, let's define consequences because people get these things all mixy-moo-d. Consequences are things that naturally occur as a result of an action. So if my child takes a step without looking at their feet when they're younger, they might fall down. That's the consequence. The consequence isn't me saying, you can't walk on that stair anymore because you fell down. That's an attempt for control. 

 

00:33:29    Alyssa

Right, so like imposed versus natural consequences. 

 

00:33:32    Eli

Yep, and I would say, you know, most imposed consequences should just be boundaries, relational boundaries. So I can tell you for a fact, when my kids get their license, they will be able to drive my car if and until they are found to be in any way using a substance while driving, and then I'm so sorry, you can no longer use the car. You're going to have to figure out buying your own car. I'm not doing that for you, 

 

00:33:57    Alyssa

Which is the imposed consequence. 

 

00:33:58    Eli

I almost think that we should call it that. It's a boundary. It's this is what I will no longer be doing as a result of what happened. It's a natural relational consequence. 

 

00:34:08    Alyssa

Yeah, I dig that. I think one thing that we, and this is all just fresh now as I'm writing the K -5 stuff, so much of the social pain that I think we want to rescue kids from and as we've been just interviewing parents and checking in with teachers and what are the things that keep coming up and there's this common through line right now of how do I step in and save them essentially? And it's not framed that way. It's like, how do I help? And what's my role here as the adult? And I think it comes from a place of maybe growing up and experiencing hard things and not feeling like you had an adult to turn to or that you might not want to repeat what was modeled for you from the adults in that situation. But then this like, so what do I do? And there I think can be this pendulum swing overstep into, I'm going to save you from this, we are going to get all of you girls together and the parents are going to meet and we're going to talk about the conflict and we're going to navigate it together. And because we're going to make sure that everyone feels included. 

 

00:35:16    Eli

Yes. 

 

00:35:17    Alyssa

And like they belong. And I think it comes from this tender place, but is now this pendulum swing of, I'm going to save you from social pain. 

 

00:35:28    Eli

Yeah. I think that we need to allow our children the repetitions of social experiences so that they are ingrained earlier and not later. This gets tricky, right? Because we have to be teaching our children things like anti -racism, because if we don't teach them, they're absorbing the culture around that, and then kids are being excluded based on race unconsciously through bias. But that's different than, you know, oh my gosh, you're having a conflict with so -and -so and you don't want them to come to your party and so we got to figure this out because we got to make sure that she's not hurt by you not coming. It's like, okay, this is a choice you're making. I want you to think through it. So if you choose to disinvite her to your birthday party, and I'm thinking older kids here, like 10, 11, 12. If you want to disinvite her to your birthday party, that is choice you have. Let's talk about it. And let's talk about whether there's a pattern here. There's a difference between temporary problems in relationship and consistent patterns. So if you are ready to be done with this relationship, let's make sure that what we're facing here is a pattern and not a temporary problem. Because if it's a temporary problem, maybe you should give yourselves a couple of days to see if you can work it out before you disinvite. But if it's, you know, something that's going on, like that just may be what it is. And that mom might call you and as a parent and say, I can't believe she disinvited Sophia. And you say, I know this is really hard. Her and Sophia have some stuff to work out. I'm not, I don't know if they're gonna be able to work it out. I'm not sure, you know, but I'm really trusting that they're gonna have to learn their own boundaries and figure it out. And I mean, this gets messy. It gets messy. 

 

00:37:07    Alyssa

100%. And I think there's an opportunity for us on the home side to help them build some self -awareness of like, if you want to share about what's going on, like I'm here to listen. And if they do, being able to say like, oh, wow, that was probably really embarrassing. And gosh, potentially sharing a story of your own, of like a time you felt embarrassed, whatever, but that connection piece of like, here's the emotion and helping them maybe be able to build problem -solving or conflict res skills around like, If you want to and you want to talk to her about feeling embarrassed, I'm happy to chat through what that could look like with you. But doing that with your kid and not the like, I'm gonna step in and save you from this. I'm gonna call their mom and make sure that we pull everything together. I'm gonna solve it for you. I think there's an opportunity to help build skills at home if our kids want to. If like, yeah, if this is something you want to wade into. 

 

00:38:03    Eli

It is interesting to walk this line. It really, and it is a line walking. And this is where it's about attuning to your kid, their skills, their development, and your relationship to them, and the social dynamics going on. I have an example of this in my life. So there are boys in my son's third grade class and they created something they called the Turtle Club. And at first, it was like just kind of this cute thing and the sense was sort of like enthusiastic for anyone who wants to be involved. And then over time, the Turtle Club became this weird exclusive thing where like slowly people started getting like disinvited from the Turtle Club. And then like there was like a leader to the Turtle Club. It got a little like totalitarian, like what's going on with the Turtle Club? And eventually my son got disinvited by his friend. And I think the friend honestly just got wrapped up in the power experience, like we all can get wrapped up into that kind of stuff. You know, so he came home crying and this happened and he's like so upset about it. And I had to do a little investigation because I'm like, I don't – I'm like, what is happening here? So I mean, I think we hear what our kids have to say. We also have to kind of reference that they don't always have the full picture, the full perspective. 

 

00:39:17    Alyssa

A hundred percent. Yeah. I've reached out and been like, I'm hearing this version from a two -year -old. If you can just give me some back stories so I can do some emotion coaching, yeah, for sure. 

 

00:39:24    Eli

Yeah. Like you come home from daycare and your kid's like, Mrs. So -and -so is mean to me. And you're like – 

 

00:39:29    Alyssa

Yeah.

 

00:39:30    Eli

Define mean. Yeah. Does she say you couldn't stick your finger in the, you know, wherever? Okay. Okay. Okay. Great. 

 

00:39:35    Alyssa

Oh, she kept you safe. Great. Thanks. Perfect. 

 

00:39:38    Eli

Yes. Exactly. But yeah. So, I mean, when I found out about this whole turtle thing and it's like his friend, you know, my next question is like, how do you want my help? You know? And in this case, it's interesting. His friends have like some respect for me over time because I'm invested in them and they can feel that. And he said, will you go with me to talk to this specific friend? And I said, I will. But we also talked about how, you know, like these things, these groups happen and you have to decide how you feel about being in a group like this. Like, I don't know, like it's okay to want like your friends around, but also when it starts getting like we're firing people that are our friends, that kind of gets, I don't know, like do you really want to be in the... ? Anyway, we had these conversations. And a couple days in, he's processing all of that. And we never actually talked to his friend. And eventually, I think one of the moms took over in kind of what you're describing. But she, I don't know, I'm curious your thoughts on this. She basically just said, hey, listen, the moms are going to coordinate when the Turtle Club happens. And it was sort of like putting the kibosh on the like exclusivity thing that was breaking down between friends. But I don't know. 

 

00:40:47    Alyssa

I think there's a missed opportunity from that. So can we dance a little on this? 

 

00:40:51    Eli

I love it. Tell me. 

 

00:40:51    Alyssa

Okay. So the like putting the kibosh on, I am so interested in what it would look like if they stepped in and they were like, hey, sometimes when clubs form, you start to feel really powerful and in control when you can kick people out and you can decide who's gonna be there. It might feel really good to have that power and that control. And I'm noticing some of that might be happening. What does it feel like for you when you're like, yeah, I can decide if somebody is gonna go and allowing kids to share about that experience. And then what would it feel like if tomorrow they said you couldn't be here? How would that feel for you? Just guiding, like scaffolding the self -awareness. 

 

00:41:37    Eli

Helping with the reflection to help them make those decisions. But here's what's hard, is that not every parent is going to do that with their kids in these social groups. 

 

00:41:44    Alyssa

100%. 

 

00:41:44    Eli

So in my perspective with my kid, I am like, I want you to be reflecting, and I've done this since he was very little, is we talk about his friendship. So he'll come home from school and I'll say, how was school? How was whatever? We'll have a little talk and I'll say, which friend made you feel the most understood today? 

 

00:42:01    Alyssa

I love that. 

 

00:42:02    Eli

Which friend made you feel the most silly today? I want him reflecting that our different friendships, that it's not just like, okay, we're friends, therefore, the same level of loyalty and whatever exists in all these relationships. It's like we can process the different ways we feel with people. And he hasn't brought up the turtle club since. I don't know if they're meeting or not meeting. Now school's out, so it's a little less like up in his grill. But I think, you know, he's thinking about it and I'm like, huh, I think maybe next time he'll be like, listen, I don't want to do this, you know, or like-- 

 

00:42:36    Alyssa

Totally 

 

00:42:37    Eli

--you know, if you are going to have an exclusive club, it might be really important and thoughtful not to talk about it in places where other people aren't invited, you know, just giving them those skill sets. Because I do want my kids to be able to say, hey, these are the people I want to hang around and not feel like they have to hang around every single person because that isn't the message we're looking for our kids. Like there are kids they aren't going to click with, that's okay. There's going to be kids that aren't kind to them, definitely don't want to spend time there. It's okay. We want to be kind though. So what does that mean to be kind? Well, it's definitely not kind to talk about the exclusive Turtle Club in front of all the people who aren't invited to it. 

 

00:43:15    Alyssa

A hundred percent agree. And I think there's a difference between inclusion and exclusion that the like, I'm talking about this and you can't be a part of it exclusion versus like, yeah, this thing exists and we are three buddies have this thing and we don't share about it to other people and it's something that feels really connected and whatever. I would say isn't necessarily including other people, but it's not in that space of exclusion of like, look what we have and you can't be a part of it. You're not welcome here. I feel like those are different. But I think when I look at just like the power and control conversation, for me, it's a foundation for they're going to feel that in so many ways in their life, times where they feel powerful and where they feel like they do have control and noticing that feeling. I think it's a big part of the anti -racism discussions that we'll have with them down the road and helping notice that feeling and how it feels and then acknowledgement that like it can go away too. And you can be on that receiving end and how does that feel? And so who do you wanna be around? How do you wanna show up for yourself and for others? 

 

00:44:25    Eli

Yes, we're slowly letting them recognize abuse and abuses of power and harm and them being on, they could be on both sides of that coin. So let's be thoughtful about who we wanna be. And that's why I go back to mentalities. It's so important as parents that we don't relate to our children through power and control because if we're relating to them through those things, they are far more likely to relate to their peers in that way, to their partners later on. It's like a disease of the mind that gets passed in relationships. So we don't want our kids believing that the currency is who's in charge. We want the currency to be the dance, the connection, the synchronicity, the music that we make together. And that's - 

 

00:45:06    Alyssa

And I think it's where our control can be used in two different ways of like, yeah, if your kid is using a substance and driving your car, you're ultimately going to be in control there where you're going to say, yeah, you don't get access to the car. But I think it's -

 

00:45:23    Eli

You're in control of the car. You're still not in control of the kid. 

 

00:45:26    Alyssa

--Totally, but you're in control of the car. You're in control of their access to the car. And I think sometimes it starts really young where we're setting boundaries from this place of control. I wanna control this thing. And when we set those boundaries, that same boundary, but from the perspective of like, because I love you, and I wanna keep you safe, which is the message behind, yeah, if you're driving my car using a substance, I'm not gonna let you have access to the car, because I love you and I want you to be safe, is the underlying message. 

 

00:46:02    Eli

So this is, to me, the difference between boundaries and punishments, is the intent. And we can feel intent from other people very deeply. 

 

00:46:08    Alyssa

Yes. 

 

00:46:09    Eli

We get it wrong sometimes. But in this scenario, there's a very different message to a teenager to say, hey, I know you were drinking last night and you drove the car. So unfortunately, I can't have you driving the car anymore because it's too dangerous and you're too precious to me. And so this is what that means and this is what that's going to look like. That is very different than, you were drinking, so I'm taking the car away. 

 

00:46:37    Alyssa

Correct. 

 

00:46:37    Eli

And it's the exact same boundary, but the relational message is profoundly different. Because one is, I am doing this out of protection of you, and the other is, I am doing this as an attempt to control your behavior. 

 

00:46:52    Alyssa

Correct. 

 

00:46:53    Eli

And we can feel that from people, and in the end, our kids are going to make these choices. you know, I see kids who come from really high control families, super strict control families, they go into adulthood in one of generally two directions, without a inner rudder at all. And so they feel completely lost, there's tons of anxiety, there's perfectionism, you know, they end up in dynamics where they don't stand up for themselves, they get basically, they end up in abusive dynamics. Or on the opposite end, they're so fixated on getting what they want and getting their control that they go kind of hog wild in the other direction, right? And so we build impulse control through the context of relationship, through feeling that someone can see us, understand us, help us have a positive narrative about ourselves even when we're still learning, right? 

 

00:47:44    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:47:44    Eli

And so, yeah, it's kid to kid. It's person to person. Obviously, it's super complex. But I think at the core, what's our motivation for how we are disciplining, which means teaching, how we are teaching our children. What do we want them to learn? Well, I want my children to always learn, I'm here for you. And sometimes I'm here for you by taking the car keys away. And sometimes I'm here for you by giving you the car keys.

 

00:48:10    Alyssa

Yeah

 

00:48:10    Eli

But I'm here for you. And it is going to look different in different scenarios based on your development, your mental health, your current, you know, all the things you're going through. But I am here for you. And I've got your back. 

 

00:48:24    Alyssa

Yeah, and that's just the cornerstone of it all. It makes me think of Dr. Stephen Nowicki's work on nonverbal communication and how huge that comes in. I mean, you heard it in the tone shift from your two examples where one's punishment and one is that boundary from safety and love. And our nonverbal communication often speaks so much louder than the words we're saying. 

 

00:48:49    Eli

Yes. 70%. That's what the research is. 70 % of our communication is nonverbal. And I could do another example of like, hi, kid. Good to see you. Not the message that kid just got. Nothing about what I said impacted, right? Versus like, Hi. It's so good to see you. There's an affect or an expression necessary in communication. So we also have to work on ourselves to go, how do I come across? Do I have a resting blank face? That's going to make it a lot harder for my kids to be able to receive the internal things I'm wanting to offer them. 

 

00:49:31    Alyssa

Or am I just saying a script I found from someone on the internet, but I inside feel annoyed with them, or I'm not happy to see them or whatever, because that will come across. And yeah, I love the us work here and I'm so jazzed for folks to get to snag Raising Securely Attached Kids because it's, dude, it's just at the cornerstone of doing anything else. 

 

00:49:56    Eli

Thank you. 

 

00:49:56    Alyssa

Thank you

 

00:49:56    Eli

I'm, I can't wait for people to get it. I just, I think I've watched so many families over the years do so much work, work so hard, but not have the tools for the relationship part. And so get really lost in the tactics of parenting and not have the foundation of that secure attachment bond and how to do it. And if you didn't have it, it's really hard to know how to do it. You know? 

 

00:50:25    Alyssa

100%. 

 

00:50:25    Eli

It's like, it's a disorienting experience. So I can't wait for people to have it. There's an audio book. There's a regular book. You can do all the different flavors. There's a Kindle version. 

 

00:50:35    Alyssa

Before we wrap up today, if somebody didn't grow up with a secure attachment relationship, is it possible and what's that journey look like to then being the parent in a secure attachment relationship? 

 

00:50:51    Eli

Okay, here's the beauty. This is why I obsess about attachment is that it's something that changes and shifts naturally in all of our lives. And absolutely you can go from having an insecure childhood to offering your children a secure childhood. That is data. We have data on that. It is possible. Here's what you have to do. 1. You have to do some emotional work around your childhood. I'm so sorry. You have to go back and you have to get secure with your childhood story. You have to process what happened to you and what did it feel like and how did you cope with it and what did you learn about yourself and your emotions and relationships. Because before we can unlearn something we have to know what it is we're unlearning. Actually I have another book, my first book is that. It's a guided journal that helps you do that work because I know for a lot of people, it's like, well, how the heck do I do that? So it's a guided journal. Take it, do it with some friends, do it with a therapist, like get a mentor in your life to walk through it with you. It will help you reflect on what it was you experienced and let go of some of the grief and then learn secure patterns in your life now, which is huge for parenting. Not just how do I relate securely to my kids, but how do I relate securely to my partners, my sweethearts and my besties? Because those are the people that I need to calm my nervous system so that when my kids need me, I'm regulated -ish. That's how I would describe myself. I'm regulated -ish, but I am in part because I can call my BFFs and talk about something when I'm struggling, and I can lay in bed with my partner, and I can say, I need you, and here's what I need, and get what I need from the people in my life, and give them what they need too so that we have this secure sense of belonging in our adult world. So that's your first part. That's a lot. I'm so sorry. Here's the fun part. I want to give you these four very easy -to -remember tips that are going to help guide you in this relational piece. So these four things you're going to do, number one, you're going to light up. When your children come into the room, when they wake up in the morning, when they come home from school, when you come home from a trip, when you reunion after being asleep or apart, you want to show them on your face, in your body, in your eyes, I'm so glad you're here. Good morning. Hi, buddy. Hi, it's so good to see you. Obviously, I'm thinking about my four year olds the way I just did that. But with my nine year old, I'm still like, Hey, hi. And when he becomes a teenager, I'm gonna be like, Hi, buddy. There will be a tone and an inflection in my face of my body that says I want you in the room. That is powerful, magical stuff to feel wanted by people that they want us not for what we're doing, but just for our presence. Number two, we're to show up. So when our kids are tender or triumphant, those two big things, those peaks and valleys, we want to make sure that they can feel us celebrating the wins. You know, I'm there watching that pass at the basketball court going, great pass, buddy. That was awesome. But also their tender moments when they lose the game afterwards and they're like, I'm just so sad we lost that we're able to say, oh, that makes sense. Losing is hard. I'm here, right, that I am able to show up for you and stay calm and connected to you. Those two skill sets. When you are tender and I'm able to celebrate you and stay with you in those moments of jubilation in your life, okay? Number three, we're going to listen up. We're going to create the type of a relationship with our children where they believe they have a voice with us, they can feel it, where they are developing their sense of self through the way they express, that we are absolutely hearing them on what they love, what they think, what they feel, what they feel about us, right? It doesn't mean we're letting them make those big decisions about safety and health and the family structure because they're still children, but we're hearing them. And one of my favorite things in all the world is just to sit down and listen to their thoughts on something they're interested. I mean, kids are freaking fascinating, right? So we're listening up. And then the last thing we're doing is when we have gotten off course on one of those three things. We are making up. So we are the leaders on repair. I'm going to mess up as a parent every single day. I don't know if anyone doesn't mess up in every single day, but I sure do. And messing up is not like failure in parenting. It's like misattunements. It's missed moments. It's I'm trying to finish an email. My kid's like, Mama, Mama, Mama, and they have to go MAMA.  And then I'm like, Oh, sorry, listen, I didn't set that boundary well with you. I have to finish this email. What is it you need? And then they're like, I have to poop. And you're like, Oh, okay, sorry, email wait. Constant triage. But that we're able to, when they feel misunderstood, hurt, missed, we've overdone our harshness, that we come back and we go, hey, can I try again? I hate fighting with you. I'm so sorry. I was really off course. Or like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I missed that moment. I'm really disappointed that I missed it. I wish I had been able to blah, blah, blah. That they are learning from us that secure relating does not mean the absence of conflict. It means the presence of repair. 

 

00:55:58    Alyssa

Yeah, I love that. Thank you for those four. That feels achievable, and it's nice to have a framework to work within. Also, a little funny side note. Sage and I were just – It was me, Sage, and Mila, solo day. And he didn't sleep well. He had been up a couple times the night before. He just woke up in a mood. And his day was off, it was Juneteenth. So he was, it's a day he's normally in school, he's at home, routine's really huge for him. And so we're just off and we're just at each other all morning, just not connected. And finally I hit a space where I was like, I'm the adult and I need to like recalibrate here and guide the connection and be the connector. And so I like take a beat for myself. And then I go up to him and I was like, buddy, you and I have had a hard time being kind to each other this morning. And I'm really sorry. I just had some water and I had some more food and I would love to play with you. Do you want to have a little reset? And he was like, yeah. And he like climbs in my lap and he lays his head on me and he just all of a sudden goes, mom. I was like, yeah. He goes, what's a reset? He was like, I don't know what this is, but I think I want it. 

 

00:57:22    Eli

Oh, I love that. 

 

00:57:25    Alyssa

It was so cute. I was like, oh my gosh, precious. He could just tell from my tone and my body language that I was saying sorry. 

 

00:57:33    Eli

Yes. 

 

00:57:33    Alyssa

And I was owning my stuff and I was coming back to connect. So he doesn't even know what reset means apparently, but he was like, yeah, I want in. 

 

00:57:39    Eli

But he could feel the music. 

 

00:57:42    Alyssa

Yeah, exactly. 

 

00:57:42    Eli

He could feel the music. And so you are coming back in for that synchronicity and getting back into harmony. and it was what his body and your body both needed. And when your kids are young, that is just a daily exercise of good music, going clankety clank, clank, clank, clank, clank, and you having to go like, oh, what do I do with this percussion right now? Because I was really hoping for more of a stringed instrument and we're in percussion mode. But coming back and going, hey, hi, I'm here. You are what matter, we are what matter. Yes, we had to get in the car, we had to go to the dentist, we had to do the thing, but also like at the end of the day, like, 

 

00:58:23    Alyssa

Love you.

 

00:58:23    Eli

I love you so much. You're the best thing in the world. When I lay in bed at night with my kids after the end of the day, which always involves misattunement and attunement, both of those things, I say something like, I think you are so wonderful. I'm so thankful that you're my kid. And just help renew that deep core sense that we are connected, we are connected, we are connected. 

 

00:58:51    Alyssa

Yeah, oh, I love it. I love you. 

 

00:58:53    Eli

I love you too. 

 

00:58:54    Alyssa

Thanks for doing this. 

 

00:58:54    Eli

You're so my people. 

 

00:58:55    Alyssa

This is so lovely. Same, same. Please, folks, head on over to social, follow her at The Attachment Nerd. Is that where your handle is, everywhere? 

 

00:59:05    Eli

Yes, yes. 

 

00:59:06    Alyssa

Okay, great. And snag Raising Securely Attached Kids. I have literally quoted it in my next book because it's so good. I was writing on attachment, I was like, I need a resource and I was like, duh, I have the best resource right there in my household. Let's go. Eli, thanks for being you. You're a gem. 

 

00:59:25    Eli

You too. Mwah!

 

00:59:25   

[Music]

 

00:59:31    Alyssa

What is that? 

 

00:59:33    Rachel

Topo Chico. 

 

00:59:35    Alyssa

But what is the thing? 

 

00:59:37    Rachel

Tropical mango. 

 

00:59:39    Alyssa

A seltzer? 

 

00:59:40    Rachel

Yeah.  

 

00:59:41    Alyssa

That looks delicious. 

 

00:59:43    Rachel

Have you ever had Topo before? 

 

00:59:45    Alyssa

Yeah, but I didn't know they – I haven't seen it like that. I haven't seen that one. 

 

00:59:49    Rachel

Yeah, so they usually used to only do like glass bottles. 

 

00:59:52    Alyssa

Yeah, that's how I've always had it. 

 

00:59:54    Rachel

So Market Basket carries like the cans. 

 

00:59:56    Alyssa

Ooh, nice. 

 

00:59:58    Rachel

And like for a while I wasn't drinking it because I guess they had really high levels of PFAs at one point, but like so does literally everything. 

 

01:00:07    Alyssa

I don't know what that means. 

 

01:00:08    Rachel

They're like the forever chemicals that – 

 

01:00:10    Alyssa

Oh, yeah, okay. 

 

01:00:12    Rachel

And they are bad for you, but like they're in so many things. I was just like, yeah, I think I'm gonna just enjoy my Topo. 

 

01:00:21    Alyssa

Seltzers in general or Topos? 

 

01:00:24    Rachel

They're in seltzers in general. 

 

01:00:25    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:00:26    Rachel

They're in water in general. 

 

01:00:28    Alyssa

Sure, okay. Cheers,

 

01:00:29    Rachel

So. I mean, the Berkey filters it, so you're drinking water is fine. I can't spend my life worrying about every carcinogen-- I'd never live, you know? 

 

01:00:43    Alyssa

Correct. And you survived cancer so far. 

 

01:00:47    Rachel

I know. 

 

01:00:48    Alyssa

So cheers. 

 

01:00:49    Rachel

Cheers to that. 

 

01:00:50    Alyssa

Yeah, but I don't think you survived cancer so that you could find all the carcinogens around you and avoid them. 

 

01:00:56    Rachel

I don't either. And obviously like there's balance here, right? Like I'm not gonna go like become a chain smoker. 

 

01:01:03    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

01:01:06    Rachel

But yeah, like the occasional Topo, I think is okay. 

 

01:01:11    Alyssa

Yeah, sure. Sagey is starting a new school classroom here. A new classroom in his school. 

 

01:01:23    Rachel

Like has started or is going to? 

 

01:01:25    Alyssa

No, is going to. 

 

01:01:26    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:01:27    Alyssa

So when this episode airs will be his first week. And he was very funny. Yesterday he kind of like heard-- one of his teachers kind of accidentally said something to him ahead of time before any prep had been done. So then questions started to come up at home a little bit. But he's a kid where like there's a fine balance between like when's the right time to talk to him. And he does really well with visuals. So last year they had sent home a book that was really helpful. Actually Zach got it like bound. And we read it like a regular book we would read at bedtime so much. He would even throughout the year read it. One of his teachers left and he got a new teacher in the middle of the year. And all of a sudden he wanted to read that book again a lot. And so we didn't, school's making another book for this year, but we don't have it yet. And so he was asking all these questions. And then yesterday we're on the way home and he was like, mom, next year I am going to be in Andrea's classroom with the big kids. And you have to be three or four to be in Andrea's classroom, and then I, when you're five, I think that then you go into, it's like the janitor's closet, basically, is what he described, and I was like, what? And he was like, yeah, when you're five and you're too big for that room, this is where you go. And I was like, tell me more about that. Like, where'd you learn about that? And he was like, well, they're not gonna be in my classroom. The kids that are five will not be there. And I was like, oh, did you ask anybody about where they're gonna go? And he was like, no, because they're gonna be in here. So in his mind, he's like, I already figured this out. They're not gonna be in my classroom. 

 

01:03:16    Rachel

The logical place for them is the janitor's closet, obviously. 

 

01:03:21    Alyssa

And I was like, oh, do you wanna know what usually happens when kids turn five? And he was like, yeah. And so then we talked about kindergarten and he was like, is there kindergarten at my coo? Which is how he says school because he doesn't say the S. At my coo. And I was like, no, there's no kindergarten at your school. And he was like, so where will I go to kindergarten? I was like, you'll go to a different school for kindergarten. Like when you started to go to that school, it was a new school for you and you got to know the teachers and the space. But it was so funny. And I was like, oh, okay. 

 

01:03:56    Rachel

Hilarious to me, but like in his mind, he was just like, okay, well, if they're not in my classroom, the next most likely place is... 

 

01:04:04    Alyssa

He's like, well, obviously they're in the school and I've never seen them when they're five. 

 

01:04:08    Rachel

So they have to be in there. And they never go outside. 

 

01:04:13    Alyssa

Yeah, they just hide. That's where they live now. It was so cute. 

 

01:04:17    Rachel

I love it. 

 

01:04:18    Alyssa

It just reminded me of all those things where like we have context for as adults that they don't. Like, he has never done this. he doesn't know what kindergarten is, right? Like all these things that we know about that they don't. And without any information, they make up their own story. 

 

01:04:35    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:04:36    Alyssa

That had me thinking about our book and how like there are so many things in the book that we've talked about where it can feel, especially in those like younger kindergarten to third grade range, it can feel like, do I even have to talk to my kid about this yet? 

 

01:04:50    Rachel

Right, yeah.

 

01:04:50    Alyssa

And it's like, yeah, they are making up their own story about things unless they have context from us. And it's just based off of, yeah, I mean, sometimes no information like the janitor closet or what they've heard from peers or what they've seen a little bit here or there in the media or whatnot. And how important it is that we have a relationship with kids where we can have those conversations where I'm not like, Sage, are you kidding me? Like, no, they're not going to the janitor's closet. What are you talking about? What do you mean? But instead I was like, oh, do you want to know what happens when you go to kindergarten? Right? Like that ability to have those conversations starts so young where they're saying like, can I talk to you about things? 

 

01:05:38    Rachel

Yeah. And it's like a lot of times it's cute. So we want to like laugh or whatever, but like for them, it's so real and serious. 

 

01:05:49    Alyssa

Exactly. Exactly. I was just thinking about like stories from the book that we've written already, but that the one, spoiler alert, story that's coming, is one about a girl who had gotten her period and was convinced she didn't have the hole for a tampon. And it's just like, yeah, if you don't, and it's funny, right? Like we wanna laugh at those things. And if somebody laughed at her in that moment when she shared that, she would have shut down. She would have felt more shame. And how crucial it is that we can, yeah, just have open space conversations. And I think today we're talking about Eli, right? 

 

01:06:26    Rachel

Yeah, I was just going to say, this is a really good segue into Eli and how really all of the other aspects of parenting come secondary to relationship. 

 

01:06:40    Alyssa

That's it. Everything. That's like we were talking about with Megan's episode about how you could, at the end when we were chatting, about how you could kind of snap at Nora and say something that you're like, eh, it wasn't the kind way to say it, but it doesn't ruin your relationship because you already have connection and like your relationship is already solid.

 

01:07:00    Rachel

Right that foundation is there. So 

 

01:07:03    Alyssa

Yeah

 

01:07:03    Rachel

And the other thing that like of course now it's like end of summer parenting so I'm like burnt out and I just want compliance and all this jazz, but something that she was talking about like with boundaries, how different boundaries can be received depending on whether or not they're in the context of like a trusting relationship. And she also mentioned like getting creative with boundaries and like this I could be better at. Because I'm like, I just want the instant, like, all right, here's the boundary, like listen to me and do what I'm saying. Okay. Great. And that's not - 

 

01:07:42    Alyssa

Yeah, over it. 

 

01:07:43    Rachel

Yeah. Like, I don't want to be creative. I just want you to listen so I can move on with my life. But like, that's not reality. And I think sometimes I'm like, oh, getting creative or getting playful, like, ugh, it's such a chore. But really it's like, it's a way to communicate to their nervous system that they're safe. And even if they don't like the boundary, like we're going to the car whether you want to or not. So if I can get creative and be playful to get us there, if that's something that you don't want to do, that's going to help you to feel safer. But then it's like, the bandwidth has to be there, right? 

 

01:08:23    Alyssa

And it's one of those things where like, it was so not modeled for me, that it's not my go to, like playfulness was not something I grew up with. I grew up with a lot of rad safety and stuff like that. But playfulness just wasn't--  So funny. The The other day, my mom actually attended virtually one of my workshops and I didn't know she was there. 

 

01:08:45    Rachel

That is funny. 

 

01:08:47    Alyssa

Afterwards, she reached out and she was like, man, I dropped the ball on a lot of things. I was like, dude, same. Also still dropping the ball on a lot of things. I was like, if it's any consolation, I don't hold any of it against you. And playfulness is just something that, they're not super playful humans. It's not how they show love and affection and connection and so now for me it's not something that comes right up for me. You know, I have to like be regulated enough to slow down and remember Oh, this is a way I can move through this like it doesn't have to be just 'because I said so' which is what I got like we're going to the car and I'm like but why or you have to wear these shoes and we're going to the car and you can put them on or I can put them on, you know, we're going. And it's like, but why? Because I said so. And I have to really be conscious in those moments of like doing it differently because it isn't second nature. It's not something I saw. 

 

01:09:48    Rachel

Yeah, same. It's not like a go to for me. And it makes me think of like, there's some thing that went around, like a quote that went around forever in parenting online communities about like whether or not you are like doing things in a positive connected way or you're doing them in a punitive way, it still takes the time. You still have to invest the time. Sometimes I'm like, I don't want to be playful. It feels like so much work. I just want you to listen to me. But then I spend so much time this back and forth because there's pushback and I'm like being lazy. So I'm trying to assert power and dominance because I don't want to do what I know is the right thing to do. Right? 

 

01:10:25    Alyssa

Yeah. Well, and I have to use my conscious brain for playfulness because it doesn't come second nature. 

 

01:10:31    Rachel

100%. and I can autopilot my way through choice theory and I'll do it for you. You know what I mean? 

 

01:10:38    Alyssa

Mm -hmm. 

 

01:10:39    Rachel

Yeah. There were many things in this interview that were just good reminders for me of prioritizing relationship. 

 

01:10:48    Alyssa

One of my favorite parts of this book is at the end, it's chapter 10, and it's about how secure attachment involves letting go and that as kids grow up, they grow out, she says, and that when we hold on to them, we are not participating in secure attachment and how hard that part can be for us of like being a safe base for them to return to and to come back to and continue to have and letting them fly, letting them go off and especially as you enter into those like preteen and teen years where they're gonna want more friend time than family time often and they might turn to talk to their friend instead of their parent in the same way that I text you or Francesca or somebody before I text my mom some things, you know? And allowing that to develop and for them to have those relationships and to go out and make mistakes, fall and get hurt and have that safe landing pad with you but the letting them go piece and that's something I feel like my parents did an awesome job of that I'm so grateful for. I think of like studying abroad, I was 15 and I went to Austria and they were nothing but supportive and I'm sure they were terrified. They didn't have phones like we have now. They let my brother go to Costa Rica for six months when he was 16 for study abroad in 1996 when we would just write letters and you'd have to wait for a letter to come back from him. And how hard that must have been for them, but how I never felt that. 

 

01:12:40    Rachel

Yeah. I think something that our parents' generation and generations prior to that were forced to do, but also were just better at, was like parenting in like uncertainty, like they didn't always know where we were, right? 

 

01:13:00    Alyssa

That's it, yeah, and like now we can have, you can have an air tag, you can have a location on somebody's phone where you know where they are at all times. 

 

01:13:07    Rachel

Right. 

 

01:13:07    Alyssa

And in the for better or for worse, I think often that's a for worse. 

 

01:13:12    Rachel

I do too, especially reading

 

01:13:14    Alyssa

Anxious generation. 

 

01:13:15    Rachel

Yeah. And that's something that I want to bring into my parenting. Not like, go do something reckless and I don't care about where you are, but more like, I'm gonna give you the space to make mistakes while you still get to come home and debrief with me and I'm still here to help you through it. I don't want to try to shelter you or protect you or control you. And then when you're an adult, you just go buck wild. 

 

01:13:45    Alyssa

Totally. I think in Anxious Gen, he does a really good job. I think I dog -eared that page in your book where he lays out responsibilities that you can give kids. So Anxious Generation is the book for folks tuning into this. And it's by Jonathan Haidt. And he lays out at this age, here are some responsibilities you can give them for independence and it just like expands to eventually they're able to go to the store by themselves or walk to a friend's house or whatever. And it's different age responsibilities, so developmentally appropriate for that age. And I thought that that was such a cool way to kind of, it's a tie into this like chapter 10 of letting them go. But there isn't an age where all of a sudden you're like, all right, now I'm letting you go, it's that it happens in these little ways over and over and over if we allow it and how crucial that is for secure attachment. 

 

01:14:46    Rachel

Yeah, and I think about Nora more than I do Abel because he's younger, but I want her to trust herself and I think that the message she needs to get from me in order to do that is that I trust her. 

 

01:15:00    Alyssa

Yeah, exactly. 

 

01:15:00    Rachel

And I think she can make good decisions. And also that it's okay if she makes a bad decision. 

 

01:15:08    Alyssa

Yeah, that was one of the questions I asked her at the beach. I said, what if when you're big, when you get bigger, I was like, say you're in high school and you do something you know you're not supposed to. You drink alcohol or you smoke or you have sex with somebody and you know you're not supposed to and you do it anyway. And I asked her, is there somebody that you could talk to about it? What would they say? And would you be in trouble? And immediately she said, I could talk to my mom and I would not be in trouble. And she would say that I'm still not allowed to do that thing, but that she would help me figure it out. And I was like, do you think you'd really be in trouble even if she said you wouldn't be in trouble? And she acted like it was the dumbest question in the world and she was like, no, I wouldn't be in trouble. And I was like, how do you know you wouldn't be in trouble? And she said, because she says, you're not in trouble and we can figure this out. And what she's getting now from you over and over and over is practicing that with smaller things. So she already knows right now that down the road, even if it's something big and it's something she knows she's not supposed to do, that she won't be in trouble and that you're a safe person to turn to to talk to about this, because you've already laid that foundation with littler things now. 

 

01:16:36    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:16:37    Alyssa

But I think that's what we often miss is that we think there's this like big moment. 

 

01:16:41    Rachel

Like a conversation. 

 

01:16:42    Alyssa

Yes. 

 

01:16:43    Rachel

One conversation. 

 

01:16:44    Alyssa

And that's how we build these secure attachment relationships where we're the person they can come to and whatever. And it's like, no, it's all these little moments. And if we punish them for all the little moments and we close them off and they know they can't come and tell us the truth when they're six or when they're three. Right now in our household, one of the most common phrases I feel like out of my mouth is thank you for telling me the truth, buddy. You're not in trouble. I appreciate you being honest. And he'll say, mom, I accidentally on purpose, the other day, I accidentally on purpose peed on the bathroom floor. and I was like, okay, thanks for telling me you're not in trouble. Can you help me understand how this happened? And he was like, I wanted to try out standing. And I was like, okay, can you - 

 

01:17:39    Rachel

So it was accidentally on purpose. 

 

01:17:41    Alyssa

Well, correct. 

 

01:17:42    Rachel

Like the standing was on purpose and the spill was an accident. 

 

01:17:45    Alyssa

Correct. And then I was like, okay, can you show me? And he was like standing so far, he was like trying to launch pee basically into the toilet. And I was like, okay, yeah, here's where you can stand if you want to try out standing. It was so cute.

 

01:18:01    Rachel

So good. 

 

01:18:02    Alyssa

But those are the moments where I can be like, but no, you cannot pee on the floor. Like, are you kidding me? And he could be in trouble and whatever, but we have all these, and trust me, sometimes I have a response where it is not ideal and I get to come back later and say like, Oh, bud, earlier, I'm so sorry. I reacted instead of being kind to you. You're not in trouble. That was a me thing, not a you thing. Whatever, like we can navigate it later. But right now, you're laying that foundation. 

 

01:18:34    Rachel

Right. And for people who are listening, I've messed up with Nora a billion times. It's just like part of being human and parenting. And in a previous episode, I had just shared that recently I got really mad we were having this back and forth and I told her her attitude was ruining family outings. So like there will be times where you're not doing it the way that you want to and you can still have a securely attached relationship. I think like my parents, I feel really grateful for my parents and feel a lot of compassion toward them. And I also was afraid to tell them when I had sex for the first time or when I was experimenting with alcohol, or they found a bowl for cannabis when I was--

 

01:19:20    Alyssa

Solid

 

01:19:21    Rachel

Weed 

 

01:19:24    Alyssa

Official. 

 

01:19:27    Rachel

Marijuana. So they found that when I was in, I think I was a freshman in high school, and that didn't go well. And it's not like if Nora came home smoking weed in high school, I'd be like, great, I'm so happy, but I think it would be more like, hey, why do you feel like you need to smoke weed? 

 

01:19:51    Alyssa

Yeah, what's coming up? 

 

01:19:53    Rachel

What's going on? The classic Lounder question, what's going on? But it's like the same time period that I was smoking weed, I was also like failing band, which like how do you even fail band? Cause I was skipping it. I had a lot of emotional Ish going on, and that curiosity, I don't think my parents had the capacity for it. I don't think that they could think about it in terms of what might she need right now. It was more like, this is not acceptable and we know we've raised you not to do this stuff. So what is happening here? 

 

01:20:32    Alyssa

And if we don't shut down this behavior, then we're condoning it. 

 

01:20:35    Rachel

I think that's a big thing. 

 

01:20:38    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. And the idea that you can shut down the behavior and simultaneously connect with the child and help meet their need. 

 

01:20:46    Rachel

I think it comes back down also to the authority and power dynamics of if I as the parent am even going to entertain a conversation about why you would be doing this, then yeah, it's almost like, am I sending the message that this is okay? And it's like, no. And spoiler alert, kids already know that it's not okay. That's why they're hiding it in the first place, okay? I knew I wasn't supposed to smoke weed, okay? I knew I wasn't - 

 

01:21:09    Alyssa

Otherwise you wouldn't have hidden it. 

 

01:21:10    Rachel

That's right. I knew I wasn't supposed to fail band. But like, it's that, it's like, they already know. We're not supposed to do this. There's a reason this is happening. 

 

01:21:23    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:21:24    Rachel

And I want something that I thought about a lot as a teenager was like, I wanted to talk to my parents about things that I was experiencing, but I didn't want to... it wasn't even that the punishments were going to be terrible, because they weren't, but it was this feeling of disappointing them that felt like I did not want to open that can of worms. And so one of my goals has been A, that my kids feel comfortable coming to talk to me, but also that they don't fear that a mistake or an action is going to fundamentally disappoint me in a way that like they can't handle. 

 

01:22:05    Alyssa

Yeah, or change how you see them as a human, their value, their worth, yeah. 

 

01:22:10    Rachel

Right, like sometimes Nora will be like, I have to tell you something, but I'm nervous, I don't want to, I'm like, nothing you say is gonna change how I feel about you. 

 

01:22:19    Alyssa

Well, and I think that's huge on both sides, right? That like, I knew there were certain things I could accomplish that my parents would feel so proud about and I thought that it would increase my value or worth if I did that. Do you know what I mean? And I think it happens on both sides, not just on the punitive side, but on the like, oh, if I accomplished this, I would be worthy or of value or loved more, whatever that is. And I hope to let them know, my kiddos, that there's, yeah, my love is unconditional. You are valued and you are worthy of being here and taking up space. And there's not a single thing you can do that would make me love you more. And there's not a single thing you can do that would make me love you less. I at one point actually said that to Maddie, my cousin. She's six years younger than me and she's always been like a little sister to me. And she was at a space where she was just trying to figure out what was next job wise and kind of career and where did she want to go with life? And it was post -college and she was like, well, I could do this. And she was like weighing her options, and in a way that felt like she had an idea of which one she wanted to pick, but was nervous about other people's opinions. And I said, hey, Mads, I don't care if you do this job or this job or you work at a grocery store or you're a teacher or you're whatever, there's not a single thing that you could do, and especially not a single job you could do that would change how I feel about you or how much I love you. 

 

01:23:56    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:23:57    Alyssa

And she just started immediately crying and she was like, that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me in a very Maddie way. But I was just like, yeah, I mean it. Like I am not looking at you saying, hmm, I'd love her more if she had this other job or made this much money or whatever. That's has literally no bearing on how I feel about you. 

 

01:24:17    Rachel

I love that messaging and I feel like I'm going to use that. Like my kids know that no mistake they make would like change how I feel about but I also like the flip side of that is like, you don't have to achieve in order for me to love you this much. 

 

01:24:33    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. Cheers. Well, thank you to Eli for writing this book. I've already actually have a friend too. She was like, can you send me your advanced copy because I need it now? And I was like, I cannot because I'm using it. We're referencing it in our book and I'm using it as I'm writing our book. It's so good and it very quickly without a doubt hit like in my top recommendations for parenting books. Raising Securely Attached Kids: Using Connection-Focused Parenting to Create Confidence, Empathy, and Resilience from Eli Harwood. It's out now folks. Go snag that bad boy. It's so good and I love how approachable her writing is. 

 

01:25:17    Alyssa 

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