Embracing the Unexpected in Family Life With Rebecca Thompson, MD

Before we dive in: this episode includes discussion of miscarriage and pregnancy loss. Please take care while listening.

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I got to hang out with Dr. Rebecca N. Thompson. She's a family medicine and public health physician who specializes in women's and children's health, and she's the author of Held Together: A Shared Memoir of Motherhood, Medicine, and Imperfect Love

[00:00:20] She's joining us today to talk about the experience of going through pregnancy complications and losses as a doctor herself. The many ways that family building challenges can shape our identities and how exploring the unexpected in family life led her to a decade long collaborative storytelling project with her patients, friends and medical colleagues.

[00:00:41] We had a really vulnerable conversation here, and we talked about a lot of different things and what that journey to motherhood looked like for me, what the messy middle looked like when I was navigating miscarriages and challenges in getting pregnant. And I'm so grateful for Becca for having these conversations so vulnerably with so many humans and hope that this feels as validating as it did for me and really would've in those seasons before I was able to enter into motherhood.

[00:01:17] When you are snagging her book Held Together, you can go through the website, we're gonna link it below, and if you order through an indie or from the Amazon link on the website, it supports Postpartum Support International. I just absolutely adore that. All right, folks, let's dive in.

[00:01:42] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans. With deep thoughts and actionable tips, let's dive in together.

[00:02:04] As I was preparing for this interview today and like looking stuff over, I was like, oh, this is gonna be a heavy one. Just like, personally, I'm so grateful for your work in this space. For folks who are tuning in, who, um, are curious. You are the author of Held Together, a shared memoir of motherhood, medicine and imperfect love.

[00:02:27] The most challenging work I've done in therapy was around motherhood and the unexpected. We had two miscarriages before I got pregnant, and so. So much of my work in processing miscarriage was really around what my expectations mm-hmm. In family life mm-hmm. Were, and what if that didn't happen? Mm-hmm.

[00:02:53] And what did that mean to me about me, for me, all that jazz. And the, actually the only time in my therapy journey where. It had such a hard session that the next day my therapist called to check in on me. And like, that has never happened at in any other therapist. And so I was like, oh, this is such important work to be talking about and it's heavy.

[00:03:13] And so for folks who are tuning in, who also might feel the heaviness, I trust that they will press pause when they need to press pause and allow the hard feelings when they need to allow them. But just want to put that up front for folks that we might have some heaviness in the conversation. Mm-hmm.

[00:03:31] Becca: Thank you so much for inviting me to be here to talk about these, these topics because we, we don't talk about them enough. 

[00:03:37] Alyssa: I think that's why they feel heavy. Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:38] Becca: And I hope, you know, one of my biggest goals in writing this book is that with some of that heaviness, we also just have a lot of hope.

[00:03:47] Yeah. Not to sound cliche, not to say that it's all naive or falsely optimistic, but I do think these stories really. Show optimism and persistence and why things can be heavy, but also not break us. 

[00:04:05] Alyssa: Yeah. I feel like your work in this book made me think of my friend Neha Roche's book. She is the author of The Power Pause.

[00:04:14] Mm-hmm. And she runs, I know it. Yeah. Okay. And what I think she does so beautifully that you also present in your work is the gray area that a lot of us have been presented with a binary of, you're a working parent or you're a stay at home parent, you birth a child, or you don't birth a child. And like, that's it.

[00:04:33] And for me, at least in this work, what I have found so comforting is the gray. Like, oh, it turns out there isn't one route to 

[00:04:43] Becca: anything. Absolutely. That's, that is the core, right? The core message. There's no. Single way to become a parent. And there's not even one single way to define family. 

[00:04:58] Alyssa: Yes. 

[00:04:59] Becca: But so many things about family come to define us.

[00:05:05] Alyssa: It's so true. Oh, I want that on a billboard. It's so true. Yeah. Yes. Okay. When we're looking at this in, in family life, when our lives don't unfold as we'd hoped. 

[00:05:21] Becca: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:21] Alyssa: And we're gonna feel all the feelings that come with that, including grief and sadness, devastation, fear. Mm-hmm. Especially I think when it's plans around, like creating families.

[00:05:35] Mm-hmm. Walk us through like what comes up, where do we go next? 

[00:05:42] Becca: Well, I mean, this comes up through every stage of family building and. Sustaining our families through the years. That's, that's another thing I, I really try to capture with this work. And, and, and just to back up for a moment and say, this was a very collaborative project.

[00:06:02] I call it a shared memoir because it's not just my family story. I worked with, collaborated with. 21 other women, some were my patients, colleagues, friends of decades going back. And I wanted to capture each of their stories to where it intersected with my own and where our stories informed each other's stories.

[00:06:26] And so this book talks a lot about fertility and becoming a parent, but it is not only about fertility and becoming a parent, it's about that long arc of parenthood. And it talks about, you know, going through all these different experiences, as you said, when things are not as you expected they might be or hope they might be to become a parent.

[00:06:49] But that can look like fertility treatments, adoption. Surrogacy fostering step parenthood and blended families, or even raising grandchildren, nieces, nephews, really defining family very broadly. And so we could start with ideas of fertility because that's where a lot of us do start. But these challenges really echo through our whole lives.

[00:07:15] Alyssa: Yeah. Uh, thank you that there are just like so many different ways that this shows up. And I think even down to like, once those kids are here, what you envisioned who they are mm-hmm. What presents itself, you know? Right. And a friend of mine didn't know until her baby was born that her baby has down syndrome.

[00:07:34] Mm-hmm. And it just shifted what the next couple years were gonna look like in terms of support services and appointments and uh, all that came with that. Yeah. And. I heard somebody earlier today actually say like, you know, I'm at a point where I just like don't have expectations. 

[00:07:54] Becca: Good, good. 

[00:07:56] Alyssa: I actually found myself saying like, wait, no.

[00:07:58] We always have expectations whether we're aware of them or not. Right. But we 

[00:08:02] Becca: can hold them more loosely. 

[00:08:04] Alyssa: Yes. And you can shift your expectations and be, mm-hmm. But I think it's really an awareness of our expectations that is really helpful in allowing a shift in the expectations that if we're not aware that, you know what, I expected to just get pregnant right away.

[00:08:24] Everyone around me was doing that. Or I expected that once I was pregnant, I was gonna carry that baby to term or mm-hmm. This is who that baby was gonna be when they were born, or whatever it was. That was your expectation. I think we have to acknowledge and build awareness around our expectations in order to allow ourselves to make space for a different expectation.

[00:08:48] Becca: Yeah, that's the part that you went through and talked about the, the early fertility parts. I think those are so pivotal in our identities and thinking about who we are and who we want to become. Because the times that we're going through those things are often around the times that we're building careers and defining who we are.

[00:09:06] Sure. As people. Right. We're still in that thirties frontal lobe development and, right. So real. So, you know, I think about in so many examples in these stories, I think of Eileen's story working at a school, seeing children coming through her office every day and imagining herself with a preschooler.

[00:09:28] Someday I. And then grappling with all these fertility challenges and having that turn bittersweet. Right? Yeah. And, and for me, even in, in my story, having it shape my medical practice, right? So should I, can I take that leap of going and doing more training from everything I've learned from my complications to be able to give back, to take care of women and families when I don't know what my outcome will be yet?

[00:09:57] Yeah. And how does that define my identity as a person, as a potential mother and as a physician? How does it change my practice? 'cause it completely changed my practice, that's for sure. 

[00:10:08] Alyssa: Yeah, of course. How could it not? Yeah. 

[00:10:10] Becca: Yeah. 

[00:10:11] Alyssa: Yeah, it, it's just interesting to me this idea that like, I just don't have expectations.

[00:10:17] Mm-hmm. I'm like, no, we always do. Mm-hmm. Like I expect that when we're done with this call and I go to stand up, that my legs are gonna allow me to stand up as they have in the past. Right. Like all of those things that are just subconscious, I not often consciously aware of the expectations that I have until they're not met.

[00:10:37] Becca: Hmm. 

[00:10:38] Alyssa: You know, until it's a different thing. If we showed up here and you know, my internet went out or something went in a way that was not what I expected, that was a shift in my expectations, that's when we usually are aware of our expectations. 

[00:10:54] Becca: Right. They're running in the background normally. 

[00:10:57] Alyssa: Yes.

[00:10:57] Exactly. Mm-hmm. And I feel like these changes. And shifts in our expectation are usually what, even bring awareness to our original one. And I felt like that was so helpful for me in my grieving, especially after the, or I guess during the second miscarriage, I had to allow myself to acknowledge, oh, I expected to birth a baby in September.

[00:11:23] I expected to have a four month old at Christmas or whatever. Like just to acknowledge like, here's what I expected life to look like. Mm-hmm. And now that's gonna be different. There's gonna be a shift in that expectation. And the acknowledgement though, of like what I had already dreamt up was, and sometimes we would dream it up before we even got a like, positive test, right?

[00:11:48] And just the like hoping, wishing phase of like, oh, if we would get, if we are pregnant now, if this was positive, now here's when this baby would be born. And we can go deep into expectations. I feel like. Without the awareness that we're doing it. Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:05] Becca: Well, this plays into the same idea as complications.

[00:12:09] The the child being different from you. This is about milestones, right? Mm-hmm. So when you are envisioning a future, whether you have a pregnancy test, it's positive or you don't, you're just imagining yourself being a parent. You have laid out milestones in your head. Yeah. Whether you've articulated them or not, you have these expectations.

[00:12:32] And so it's the same trap we get into. We, and literally in every case, our children are not who we expected because they're people, right? 

[00:12:42] Alyssa: Correct. It turns out they are not going to just be chill in the grocery store because you set the boundary ahead of time and prepared them, and now they're gonna react.

[00:12:51] It's the exact way you hoped 

[00:12:53] Becca: they come out. Exactly. Who they're, and you know, maybe there's this continuum they're on and you can shift them a little bit this way Sure. That way. But they're just people and so when some of them have even extra complexities like your friends or an extra medical complexity say Yeah.

[00:13:08] Or developmental complexity, emotional struggle, anything that isn't sort of, there's no such thing as normal by the way, but anything that isn't so-called normal. So-called typical. Right. Sure. Um, then we find that the reality that we're living can be so different from what we imagined in the abstract.

[00:13:28] Right? Yeah. And you know, I think this is true, even if we did expect it a little bit. So I think of many of my patients who go into Pregnancy Parenthood adoption, knowing that the child will have different needs from typical extra medical needs, more complex medical needs, um, it doesn't necessarily make it easier.

[00:13:50] Alyssa: Oh, totally.

[00:13:50] Becca: You might go in knowing your child will have a very specific disorder, and Erin talks about this in her chapter, um, having hemophilia in their family and preparing themselves for what would it look like if our child has this disorder. Well, we know all about it. Our family is expert in managing this, and they are as informed as you could possibly be.

[00:14:15] Alyssa: Totally. 

[00:14:15] Becca: And yet living that experience, she says something to this effect of, I used to think that we all traveled together on this path of life and you know, we, we had some slightly different experiences, but we were all moving along and now all of a sudden I find that I've completely stepped off the path.

[00:14:33] There is no map over here. Everyone else is on a different road and there I, I don't even know how to navigate this and I'm all alone. 

[00:14:41] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:14:42] Becca: And that's with a supportive family known, totally possible complication and all the preparation you could have. 

[00:14:50] Alyssa: Yeah. And it's still hard. Yeah. Still hard. I appreciate that, that the goal of preparation and expectations awareness isn't so that it isn't hard.

[00:15:04] Becca: Right. 

[00:15:04] Alyssa: That it doesn't, is there's no amount of like I did all of this stuff ahead of time. Right. And now it doesn't feel hard. 

[00:15:10] Becca: Right now I'm all set. 

[00:15:12] Alyssa: Yeah. 'cause journeys are still hard and life is hard. And we are also humans existing around other humans. Being human is hard and messy. Uh, one of the questions that came up in your work is the, like, who am I if I can't have a baby?

[00:15:30] Yes. Yes. This for me was that like really hard therapy session was like, what would this mean? My master's is in early childhood I did research in building emotional intelligence in kids. I chose this career path to be able to be around kids until I felt ready to be a mom like it was. The end game for me was always be a mom.

[00:15:52] Becca: That really resonates with me in terms of was I strong enough to go and do this work with women and families if I never managed to become a parent. But you know, I'll say one thing. These stories really reminded me. I hope I knew it before, but it really brought this into focus that if we wanted to be parents, we would find a way.

[00:16:14] Alyssa: That's what I ultimately came to. But there was still the like grief of that's how hard 

[00:16:21] Becca: was it gonna be? Come on. Yeah, totally. But there was 

[00:16:23] Alyssa: still the grief of like. I envisioned carrying a baby or experiencing birthing a baby or getting the opportunity to nurse a baby. And like, it was the grief of that, of like, what if I don't get that?

[00:16:39] Uh, for me, for my journey, for my life experience that I had envisioned and a shift away from that, which ultimately I did get to experience, I'm so grateful. But really getting to a space of what if I don't and what does that mean about me? For me, yeah. To me, and I knew that I would become a mom, I knew there was no world in which I wanted to live in long term where I didn't get to be a mom.

[00:17:10] Okay. The how was the part I had to grieve mm-hmm. Preemptively, right? When I was like miscarriage after miscarriage and not sure, maybe I won't get this part. And I, in sharing my fertility journey, I have had the privilege of getting to hear so many other folks', fertility journeys. And that part is so common for so many.

[00:17:36] And what's been interesting is that after I had my, my second child, my daughter Mila, like right after I was like, I think I'm done. Like I, we didn't know how many kids we'd wanna have, whatever. And then I like edited it and was like, I think I'm done birthing my own children. Hmm. Like, I don't know what the future holds for me and motherhood.

[00:18:00] In other avenues. Mm-hmm. But I think I'm done birthing my own children. Mm-hmm. And I think I could only even get there because of the work I'd done before I got to enter into motherhood of like, there are so many different ways to be a mom. 

[00:18:14] Becca: And the work that you were doing professionally too, that was such a naturally large part of your identity.

[00:18:21] It, yeah. You'd been in that realm for so long. You know, I think that there are kinds of struggles with becoming a parent, a mother in, in our cases that are about. What motherhood means and why we might choose to pursue that a certain way versus another way. Pregnancy versus adoption versus fostering any number of things.

[00:18:51] Um, but the, they, all of all of these ideas make me think about Stacy's story and how our relationships with our partners, if we do choose to do this with a partner, how that can really influence how we see parenthood and motherhood. And for her specifically, you know, she was someone who was struggling with, she and her partner were having trouble figuring out whether they wanted to have children and, and you know, she did definitely want to, she was struggling with figuring out if he wanted to and was willing to, and she comes to realize.

[00:19:33] You know, after years of trying to figure this out together. And why was this kind of the everything to her that having a child wasn't just about being a parent, the actual, the verb of parenting. Right. It was about being open to love and open to that messiness, complexity and hope and optimism and wanting to shape the future.

[00:20:03] It, it was about, how did she say? She said it was the one thing that meant everything. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. And so we see children and families as so important to defining what we hope for as our future. Then this is way beyond a personal identity. It's about the identity of our whole community. 

[00:20:25] Alyssa: Totally.

[00:20:27] Yeah. That's so interesting. It just had me thinking like, what is it for me? Hmm. I've always, since I've been alive, loved kids. Okay. And like, there's all the pictures of me that I'm, where I'm like five years old, I'm like carrying a real live baby around. Like, what were you guys doing? Gave baby Baby. Yeah.

[00:20:46] What was happening? Um, and yeah, just like always been a part of who I was in high school. The car I drove had two car seats in it because I babysat kids who were in car seats and would just, it, it's all I've known, you know, and it's such a part of my identity and, but when I really pull back and think like, what is it about being a mom that felt so big for me?

[00:21:14] Or, or, or so important to me, I think at the root of it is getting to love someone unconditionally and be their safe person that. I didn't have someone who was my safe adult in life. And I think there's a part of me that wants to be that for these other humans and maybe even for just beyond the two humans I birthed, but the idea that I get to be that for them from the very beginning.

[00:21:54] Mm-hmm. It's probably for a part of me that didn't have that. 

[00:21:58] Becca: Oh yeah. And that's, that's such an important thing to point out. I don't want people to make the assumption that we all want to parent because it sounds easy and we're just gonna replicate what we knew. It makes me think several of, several of the stories in this book, especially Lydia's story, it makes me think about one's identity in relation to their own parent and mother and having to mother themselves.

[00:22:23] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:22:24] Becca: Lydia talks about this is so beautifully how she, for years was absolutely positive. She did not want to be a parent committed, you know, thought about entering the sisterhood very seriously. Thought about that, pursued that for a little while, and basically realized, well, there are so many ways to honor the sacred.

[00:22:45] It doesn't have to be through my religion per se. You know, maybe I could be open to parenthood in some way. And when she does finally consider it, she talks about how she has kind of a vision of holding an infant herself, 

[00:23:02] Alyssa: Uhhuh. 

[00:23:03] Becca: And she realizes, I mean, it's almost as if she's holding herself as an infant, and she realizes looking down in her dream that she was never unlovable.

[00:23:17] Mm. Her family, her given family was just never able to give her the love that she deserved. And so maybe, maybe she could break this cycle and allow her own parenting her own child to help her become the adult she was meant to become. 

[00:23:40] Alyssa: I love that. And I, my wheels are just like spinning because I think I do this in life with other people's kids too.

[00:23:49] Especially if I see kids where I'm like, oh, I don't know if they have a secure attachment relationship. Mm-hmm. Or a safe space to turn. Mm-hmm. There's a part of me that gravitates toward that kid in a, like, you can see it, I'll be a safe space for you. You can see it, you know, like you can, and, and when I say safety for me.

[00:24:07] I had physical safety. My physical needs were met and had a safe home. There was no like abuse or neglect or anything like that. I didn't have the emotional safety a person to turn to to say, this hard thing happened to me and I need to be able to talk about it. Or, I had my period and I don't know what to do or whatever.

[00:24:29] Like it didn't have that attachment relationship to have somebody to turn to with the hard stuff. And so when I see kids that I perceive to not have that, I find myself gravitate right toward them. Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:44] Becca: Yeah. 

[00:24:45] Alyssa: You see that in each other. 

[00:24:46] Becca: I'm sure they in you too. 

[00:24:48] Alyssa: Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually, there's a kiddo in my life who said, uh, that he loves being around me because he can tell me anything.

[00:24:57] And there was, I was just like, oh, that's all I've ever wanted. Like that's what I'm on this earth to do, man. And. Yeah, this is making me really think about like, why did I wanna have kids? And I, I do think that at the core of it is this, it's this desire to be for someone. What I didn't have. 

[00:25:19] Becca: And this also makes me think about times when we can't be, we wanted to be for the kids a hundred percent the worst day to day.

[00:25:29] Right. But I was thinking back to something that you and Rachel talked about in her story, um, about not being able to respond as you wish you could and having to almost like use props. Right. And I was thinking about in Kelly's story, um, this involves chronic illness in her partner in herself and how.

[00:25:51] Before they went through these experiences, she was quick to judge. She will say herself, she was quick to judge other parents and how they might give a kid a binky or a ducky blanket or some sort of a lovey or a prop, and why would you do that and not just be there for them yourself. And you know, I think we, we realize so many of these nuances as we become parents and how we, we want to be there would be there for our kids.

[00:26:19] But it's also not healthy to always be the only thing for them anyway. 

[00:26:23] Alyssa: A hundred percent, yeah. 

[00:26:26] Becca: Yeah. So the parents' medical condition can really influence that or just the parent, any, you know, anything or just capacity, right? Yes. Like there are 

[00:26:32] Alyssa: so many times where as a parent, I haven't shown up the way.

[00:26:36] I'd love to show up because I haven't slept, or life feels crazy and I don't have the capacity that I wish I had all the time. And there's. For me, that's where work comes up, around guilt and it's really just, I think letting this part of me that's so afraid of my kids not having that attachment relationship, that I gotta let her know that we've got this, they have that, and 

[00:27:03] Becca: it's okay for our kids.

[00:27:05] Yes. To realize that parents are people too. Yes. Yeah. Outside of and beyond our relationships with our children, we have our own hopes and dreams. Hundred percent. And feelings and fears and you know, I, I, again, I hope that's something that our stories really show people and, and remind them that it's okay.

[00:27:24] Alyssa: Yeah. And I, I had something happen relatively recently. I travel a bunch for work and so I'm gone. Mm-hmm. And I have a 4-year-old and a 1-year-old, and I at this point don't really have guilt from it. I have the privilege of getting to spend a lot of time with them when I'm home and have a flexible schedule and.

[00:27:45] Part of this is that I also travel and I love the work I do, and I'm a better parent, I think when I get to travel. 'cause I get to step away and like absolutely sleep in a room by myself and through the night or whatever. But I was on a work trip and I had done the work thing, and then I was, it was in New York City and I was staying the night, and then I had a couple like meetings the next day I was gonna go to, but the thing I'd come down to the city for was done.

[00:28:14] And my daughter headed to the er, wheezing and, uh, throwing up. And uh, she's 15 months old. And so immediately I was like, all right, we're heading home, right? Like, instead of going, I was gonna get home 24 hours later and she was refusing all food and liquids and I'm a nursing parent and so I was like.

[00:28:41] We're going home. And I got home and she nursed and snuggled and stayed right on my body for, felt like forever, but like four, eight hours and came out of it and was doing great. But it was one of those for me of I, I think in the past I would've felt guilt that I wasn't there when it started and instead I felt gratitude that I could get there.

[00:29:03] Right. Of like, how cool is it that she has safe people in her life, right. That she felt safe with through the process and that I have the privilege to get home to her. Hmm. And that is growth, baby. That's growth because that is not what would've 

[00:29:20] Becca: come up before. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's the core of all these kinds of stories is growth.

[00:29:27] Right. Yeah. Persistence and growth. 

[00:29:30] Alyssa: That persistence. Oh, uh, it's so real. When it comes to defining and redefining what motherhood and womanhood and parenthood in general, thinking also of non-binary and trans humans, what that can come to mean. What has your journey in this work, in this memoir taught you about that?

[00:29:54] Becca: Hmm. I think that a couple of things come to mind for that. Motherhood versus parenthood. There's a great chapter. I love them all. They're all my favorite. Uh, one of the chapters, this is Nancy's chapter. Um, she is a biologist and climate change researcher and Abbott Outdoors person and wants to be a parent, but it's not the core of her identity.

[00:30:20] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:30:21] Becca: And she finds that. As she, she goes through pregnancy and kind of struggles with what will it mean to be a mother. I don't really want a coordinated diaper bag and handbag and baby carrier. I wanna figure out how to bike commute to my office in central Alaska, in the snow on my studded snow tires on my bicycle when I'm eight months pregnant.

[00:30:49] Yeah. And so where is, where is the conversation for me and how do I think about what I want for my family and how I preserve my own identity as I raise children, right? Mm-hmm. And so she, she talks a lot about gender and expectations in society around that. Um, I love, there's this one scene in her story.

[00:31:14] Where she has a bunch of pink onesies, I guess she's been gifted or something, and she's dipping them in this bucket of green dye and dyeing them all green. And her friend there is like, what are you doing? What's up my alley? Like, I dunno, am I rejecting the patriarchy? Am I embracing what, maybe they're just ugly color.

[00:31:32] And she, she says, uh, it was something about who I was and who I wasn't Mm. Who, uh, my daughters were and who they might become. And yeah, just why do we have to have everything be gendered? Yeah. And even just put into two buckets. So she explores that so beautifully, and in the end comes away with, well, sure.

[00:31:56] I, yeah. I guess I'm a mother. Fine. I'm a mother, but. That word, whatever, what does it really mean? Yeah. Don't speak to her. 

[00:32:02] Alyssa: Yeah, totally about, but I, I'm the, and I embrace 

[00:32:05] Becca: it. 

[00:32:06] Alyssa: Yes. I do think about that of like, what does that word mean? And I think for a lot of people, they feel very seen in that word and empowered in it, or want to bring the power back to it that maybe mm-hmm.

[00:32:22] They feel like has been lost. And a lot of folks who don't find themselves in that word, who would also technically fall under that category of like, yes, I'm a mom. And as you're telling that story, a few folks popped up into my head mm-hmm. Who were like, yeah, I would become a parent if I had a partner who really wanted to, but also if I Yeah.

[00:32:49] Didn't ever become a parent that's okay with me and who. Met folks who wanted to have babies and they had babies, and they're loving it, thriving, or doing their own version of it. 

[00:33:02] Becca: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But 

[00:33:03] Alyssa: that it's not what a lot of the, like motherhood language, they don't feel seen in. Right. 

[00:33:09] Becca: The narrative, the Yes.

[00:33:10] The forced narrative. Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:11] Alyssa: Exactly. Uh, so I think about that and like, what does it look like to really redefine what that means for you as an individual, you know? And like, I'm not a human who likes the color pink for me. Mm-hmm. Right? Like I own none of it. I'm an earth tones gal. And. I have two children, both who really at this point, like bright colors and things.

[00:33:40] Mm-hmm. And my daughter's 15 months old and has strong opinions, uh, so deeply respect about her. But she will pick out her outfit and it's the outfit I wouldn't pick. You know, like that sort of stuff. And just allowing her to be her. 

[00:33:57] Becca: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:58] Alyssa: And for my son too. And to a lot of the like, conversation I have with myself is around like, what does it look like to embrace femininity and for it not to be a dirty word.

[00:34:12] Mm-hmm. And that might also mean pink and glitter and things that I don't gravitate toward. Mm-hmm. And it's like so silly, right. The like. Why does that matter? 

[00:34:25] Becca: Right? Why does it have to represent that? Yes, historically it has. And then there's the, the shift in, if you do start out in parenthood with a partner, how does that partnership play into it?

[00:34:41] You know, which role is each person taking on or those gender roles or not? Um, I think about, you know, when, when a partnership changes, whether that's due to an illness and the other partner can't contribute something that he or she had been before, or a death or divorce, or any reason that the, if there's a second parent, they're not still in the child's life in that way.

[00:35:05] Um, you know, I think about do we have to become something else, something extra, something more for that child. And Tina's chapter captures this so beautifully in talking about. How, when something huge changes in their family's life. And she says that Kevin had always been the one, her husband had been the one who was good at putting emotions into words and expressing his feelings.

[00:35:33] And she, Tina was, is an engineer to her core. Sure. And so now when Kevin had always played the foil to her rational thinking, and now for their three year old, she would have to become that part of Kevin for him. 

[00:35:53] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:35:55] Becca: We take on more roles, 

[00:35:57] Alyssa: so happy and just like when it doesn't feel like how we would naturally show up.

[00:36:04] Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:05] Becca: And having to be everything now. Exactly. Not something we're uncomfortable with to begin with. Totally. And also everything 

[00:36:10] Alyssa: and just using our conscious brain so much more when we already are probably pretty strapped. Right. That, yeah, totally. I was saying to my husband recently, he and my son are very similar.

[00:36:20] They have very similar nervous systems. The way they process the world is very similar and it's very different from how my daughter and I navigate the world. Mm-hmm. And my husband often responds to my son when he, when my son's having a hard time in a way that I like look to, and I'm like, yes, I like want to be more of this.

[00:36:42] Because if he just lets himself just respond in the way that he would desire. Mm-hmm. He naturally responds. To Sage my son in the way that Sage receives. 

[00:36:53] Becca: Mm. 

[00:36:54] Alyssa: And I have to like, override all of my instincts where I, my, my daughter for instance, she wants me to like validate her experience and talk to her and give her a hug and offer touch.

[00:37:05] And my son's like, stop talking and give me space. And what I want is what my daughter likes. And so when Sage is having a hard time, I have to really consciously not just do what feels instinctual to me because that really just meets my needs, not his. And so just as an example of like when there is that shift to now there's one caregiver who's taking on more mm-hmm.

[00:37:36] I would just have to use my conscious brain so much more. Mm-hmm. Because there's so many things that my husband does where he shows up in relationship and with, with all of us in. Ways that kind of complete a puzzle that I don't bring all the pieces to. Right, 

[00:37:52] Becca: right. 

[00:37:53] Alyssa: Um, yeah. Yeah. It's so hard. I have also received, or along the like gender stereotypes piece of like who does what as the parent who travels, my husband does not travel for work.

[00:38:07] I have received a number of comments around that. 

[00:38:10] Becca: Of course, 

[00:38:11] Alyssa: as a mom and also like my husband does bedtime with the kids, I don't do bedtime, and I just recently had someone say like, oh, I would never be able to give up bedtime. And I was like, oh, huh. And, and it was, it was from a mom who's also made a lot of other like mom, gender specific comments.

[00:38:36] Mm-hmm. I hear you. And I was like, oh yeah, no. And she said, she was like, that's where I used to get like the most information or the best snuggles or whatever. And I was like, oh yeah, no, for sure. I was involved in bedtime when we had one kid. And now that we have two, like that shifted and this is just like what works best for us now.

[00:38:59] And I was like, every once in a while I like to pop in and like do it. But I have learned for our kids that the consistency of like who's doing bedtime is most helpful. So if we can have that as consistent as possible, that's helpful in this season, in this stage. And found myself like justifying and explaining why I don't do bedtime.

[00:39:21] Mm-hmm. And later like stepped back from that and was like. I don't need to explain this, I don't need to justify this. No one would say that to him. If I was doing bedtime every night, no one would make a comment about it to him. 

[00:39:37] Becca: No. And the most interesting thing about all that is something you dropped in there, you just went, blew right past it.

[00:39:46] I think it's the key. The season. Mm-hmm. The season that we're in. Right. So. Whether whoever that other mother is, it doesn't matter any other mother. How old are her kids? What are their needs? It's different from your family and so to say right now, I don't do bedtime. That's just the season. Yeah. You may find that when your kids, now my kids are teenagers now, which is hard to believe, but you may find that when your kids are, you know, what will they be five and eight or whatever the, you know, different.

[00:40:18] Yeah. Dynamics change over the years. You might find that bedtime with one of them is a time you absolutely want to do because that is when they talk to you or read a story and you realize that's not gonna last much longer or whatever it is. Right. It's gonna change and your career will be different than too.

[00:40:36] Things keep evolving Totally. Season, it's all about seasons and absolutely. Why are we having to judge each other? I could never do No whatever. You're not me. Totally. Yeah. You don't have to, no one's asking 

[00:40:47] Alyssa: you to. 

[00:40:47] Becca: Yeah. Yeah. I was, I got to thinking lately about, some of it comes up a lot about comparing, comparing our lives, and I, I had this kind of realization even after finishing writing all the stories up.

[00:41:00] Just more recently, I hope that one of the things these stories let us do is compare to find what we have in common. 

[00:41:08] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. I love that. Rather than 

[00:41:09] Becca: comparing just any sort of judgment or context 

[00:41:12] Alyssa: Yeah. To find that common ground. 

[00:41:14] Becca: Because every story I find, you know, even if her experiences are so different from my own, I see myself in her.

[00:41:24] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:25] Becca: I see some of the same struggles and questions and challenges and it's, the themes are universal, even when the experiences are incredibly specific. 

[00:41:35] Alyssa: Totally. 'cause we're just humans on this. Mm-hmm. Planet. 

[00:41:39] Becca: And that's what's fun. I think you can see 

[00:41:42] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:41:42] Becca: From so many different angles why some of these core issues come up in every family.

[00:41:49] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That is so interesting and such a cool way to look at it of like, what if we compared for connection? 

[00:41:56] Becca: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:59] Alyssa: Hmm. I love that. I hope for that too. I hope that folks diving into your book and into your work, get to experience hope and knowing that there's so much gray and there is not one right way to enter parenthood to be a parent.

[00:42:20] Uh, and when we can step back and build awareness of our expectations, that's, I think, the key to relinquishing control of those expectations. Mm-hmm. Okay. 

[00:42:34] Becca: And defining it broadly, even for people who aren't raising children in their own home. Mm-hmm. Even if they're parenting by being a teacher or being out in the community, this is a way that we parent everybody.

[00:42:49] We can mother a whole community. 

[00:42:51] Alyssa: Yeah. That was a gift somebody shared with me when I was in the midst of my second miscarriage. One of our seed followers at the time reached out and was like, you have been a mother to my family for years. Yes. And you didn't even know it. And I was like, Ugh. Just full tears could, I was like, I can't handle this right now, but thank you.

[00:43:12] Exactly. Oh, that's such a gift. Thank you so much for your work, Becca. 

[00:43:16] Becca: Thank you. And thank you for helping us tell all these complicated, messy parts of our stories. 

[00:43:23] Alyssa: Yeah, for sure. They're the best parts on there. That's right. They're the best parts. Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:43:39] My dad, we were just on vacation and we said, oh, you know, we're coming to Maine, we're gonna, we're gonna go camping, whatever. Was he shocked out of his mind? He was like, you mean like you're gonna go sleep in like an RV or something like? And I was like, no, I'm gonna sleep in a tent. And he literally laughed and said, there's no way you're going to, 

[00:44:02] Rachel: now you have to.

[00:44:03] Alyssa: Yeah, I know. And he was like, do you remember the last time that we went camping? Which isn't actually the last time I went camping. 'cause I went camping in college. But the last time I went camping with my family, I had gotten up in the middle of the night to go pee and there was like a. But you could go pee and there's a light to get you there.

[00:44:21] But then coming back I was like, oh shoot, I don't know where I'm going. 

[00:44:24] Rachel: Mm mm-hmm. And 

[00:44:26] Alyssa: I followed my father's snoring to get back to our tent and the snoring was so loud that then I went and just slept in the van and they found me in the van with like things piled on top of my head to try and drown out the noise of my dad snoring.

[00:44:46] Well, we use battery operated sound machines when we can't. So that's what I was gonna ask. Is there a sound machine thing? I was like, if we bring a sound machine as are people gonna be like, oh my lord. 

[00:44:58] Rachel: No. Because all of us are camping with 

[00:45:00] Alyssa: small kids, so 

[00:45:00] Rachel: Most, yes, exactly. Most of us are using sound machines.

[00:45:04] Okay, perfect. And also done. And done. If somebody tried to tell me I couldn't use a sound machine with Abel, well. Yeah, the sage, are you kidding? As if, although I almost sent you a picture while we were in Florida, because Abel's like ability to filter input has grown so much. 

[00:45:22] Alyssa: Isn't it so fun when you start to see it like he, this is the gift we need to give everyone who has young children who are sensory sensitive, right?

[00:45:29] Is this story right here. 

[00:45:30] Rachel: So background Abel for his first several years of life had to be, have his room blacked out. And I also had to like do like tinfoil, like around the air conditioning. Like I had to be like, you can't see your hand in front of your face. I had to be that dark. And then I know people who are smart about hearing and decibels and sound are gonna hate this, but his hatch sound machine was at a 

[00:45:53] Alyssa: hundred percent.

[00:45:54] And it's the old hatch. So now the new hatch, when you put it at a hundred is like nothing. No, it's something, it's like a jet airplane. It's raging 

[00:46:04] Rachel: the old hatch at a hundred. So even with that, if I like closed the refrigerator too loud, he would wake up through 100% hatch. So now fast forward, he's six. We were on vacation in Florida and I did not, for the first time in his life, I did not pack blackout shades.

[00:46:21] Not intentionally because I forgot. However, it was a non-issue. He fell asleep with like it was legit bright in the room and now he likes to sound machine quiet. So it's probably at like 20%. So he could definitely hear like things going on in the house and he just fell asleep and I, 

[00:46:41] Alyssa: and slept through the night and slept in in the morning to when he should.

[00:46:44] Rachel: Yeah, just like a normal, 

[00:46:46] Alyssa: incredible. Sage just isn't falling asleep at this point as a baby. He wouldn't fall asleep without the white noise dungeon. Now it's that he will wake up to anything. 

[00:46:56] Rachel: Mm. Mm-hmm. You know, 

[00:46:58] Alyssa: like if that sound, even with the sound like we're about to do some sleep training for Mila and we're putting her pack and play in our room because he shares a wall with her.

[00:47:08] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:09] Alyssa: Oh yeah. And anytime she cries at night, he wakes up. 

[00:47:12] Rachel: Yeah. Abel used to wake up in the night to Sounds too, like we would have to be really careful even just like staying up later than him. We would've to be really careful now we're really not careful. Um, and like he'll stir for sure, but he doesn't like, or he'll sit up and be like, mama.

[00:47:29] Mm-hmm. And I'll just be like, yeah, you can go back to sleep. And then he does. So it's not like a, it's not like a real wake up. Yeah, like last night, this is so funny, this just came back to me. I didn't do bedtime last night 'cause I was out with my friends and so, but I sleep in Abel's room, so I went to bed like a little after 10 and we had like, had some stuff happen with extended family that had like stressed me out yesterday.

[00:47:51] So I had a hard time falling asleep. So it was like tossing and turning and getting up to pee and whatever. Just generally being disruptive and he rolls over and goes, here are my dirty socks. And like, this is like 10 30 at night. I had woken him up. He had realized he didn't want his socks on, so he just rolled over and he had like his socks in a ball and he was like, Hey mama, here are my dirty socks.

[00:48:13] I'm like, okay, great, thanks still mom and heart at 10 30. So good. But yeah, so he, all of that to say camping is not super stressful with him at this point because he just doesn't need what he used to need. Yeah. 

[00:48:30] Alyssa: That is so rad. I don't know what Mila needs. Um, apart from like just being awake and touching you.

[00:48:38] Yes. Yeah. But like, okay. I do think for her, if she doesn't have enough STEM throughout the day, she just doesn't sleep great at night. And I think she's a little bored right now with just us. 'cause then like when we've, for instance, like flying home that day and there's just like so much going on and she had two naps instead of just one long one, like two shorter ones.

[00:49:10] And there's just so much stimuli going through an airport, doing the thing, whatever. That was the best night of sleep she's had in a while. 

[00:49:18] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:19] Alyssa: And then we got back and had like a chill day, first day back. And she slept terrible that night. And I was like, you think maybe she's bored? Uh, that's, no, Angie just wants to nurse.

[00:49:34] Rachel: Yeah. That was also Nonie. Um, Nora's sleep was honestly, bedtime's still hard with her. Yeah. Yeah. She wants to talk, she wants to move. Um, 

[00:49:49] Alyssa: yes. 

[00:49:50] Rachel: Like 

[00:49:50] Alyssa: Leila's, like doing down dog nursing before she goes down for bed and then eventually just like lays down in my, she's like actively doing yoga while nursing in the dark.

[00:50:01] And then sometimes she'll pop off and go, hi, mama. Mama hi. And they're like, bye. I'm like, good night. We are done here. Lay down, go to 

[00:50:11] Rachel: sleep. So actually Cody and I used to kinda like argue about this because Nora went through this like spell, it was very annoying. But she would legit be doing gymnastics in her, on her bed.

[00:50:22] Yes. And he, this will be Mila. And he was like, and then she'd be like, I can't fall asleep. And I'd be like, totally, it's really hard to fall asleep when you're doing like back bends and stuff.

[00:50:34] And Cody was like, wanted to make a rule that there could not be gymnastics in bed. And I was like, I understand where you're coming from, but A, I'm not gonna enforce that. And BI know it seems counterintuitive, but she's actually like seeking input that will help her fall asleep. Um. But yeah, there, so we did limit like the moves that she was allowed to do just because there was like a lot of like slamming down onto the bed and stuff.

[00:51:00] Um, so good. But yeah, and that's her classic too. Like she will be in her room for like literally 30 seconds and then she'll come out and be like, I can't sleep. I'm like, totally. It's hard to sleep when you haven't laid down yet. That makes sense.

[00:51:17] Alyssa: I remember at one point with Kylie, who's on our team, has, uh, her oldest is also a high sensory seeker, and she was like, oh, wait, if I do all this stuff to her before bed, I burrito roll her and I throw her into the bed and I, whatever. This is actually helping her fall asleep. 

[00:51:37] Rachel: Mm-hmm. You're like, 

[00:51:37] Alyssa: yeah, totally.

[00:51:38] And I think there's this idea that like, we're supposed to wind down and have this like zen whatever, and for some kids, yeah. But it depends on their nervous system. And for our high sensory seekers, like I should start throwing Mila into the couch Totally. And doing like squishes and squeezes and whatever with her.

[00:51:56] Right now I'm just, she's nursing while doing her gymnastics and I'm annoyed and she like also bit my nipple the other day. And it is, it hurts. It hurts worse than any time it's ever hurt from nursing because she has a full mouthful of teeth. Yeah. And she was nursing, she's in down dog and she slipped and Oh, it's that she tried to 

[00:52:18] Rachel: grip onto it with her teeth.

[00:52:20] Alyssa: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And pulled and I, 

[00:52:24] Rachel: so I'm dying right now. Totally. It's like razor blades and it's like, yes. Yeah. Nora used to also just like be so wild while nursing, it's like all over the place. And then, yeah. If she would lose her grip, she would try to like atch with her teeth. Mm-hmm. Friend. That's not how this works.

[00:52:42] Like, you're lucky I'm even letting you nurse right now because you're making me wanna crawl outta my own skin. Correct. Okay. So the teeth, the 

[00:52:48] Alyssa: teeth are gonna be a problem here. I will sometimes say, I need you to lay down. 

[00:52:53] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:53] Alyssa: And she'll like freeze. And she'll look at me and she'll lay, she'll like lay her head down for a second, and then immediately she's back to moving because she can't 

[00:53:02] Rachel: stop.

[00:53:03] Totally. I would 100%. I remember, like with Nora, I would be like, I'm gonna stop nursing you if you don't stop moving. Yeah. But it was also, oh, I've so many. Also, like nursing was the only way to get her to sleep, so it was like the biggest empty threat ever. And of course the biggest, she knew that, so she was just like, okay, cool.

[00:53:19] Anyway, um, back to nursing, upside down. Oh, you're describing 

[00:53:23] Alyssa: my life. I'm describing my life right now. 

[00:53:26] Rachel: It's like, have you seen that meme where it's like you crying and telling your kid that? You're overstimulated and then saying, Hmm, very sad. Anyway, that is 

[00:53:37] Alyssa: Nora to a t. I haven't, but that's so good. And it is Nora.

[00:53:44] Oh, oh man. Yeah. 

[00:53:45] Rachel: And I love her so much. But one thing that I think is important to like note here is that like Cody finds it frustrating because the things that help Nora have an easier bedtime wind, Abel up and Yes, keep him awake. So it's like we have this sensory mismatch. We can never do bedtime together, which is not how I envisioned family bed.

[00:54:03] Same. Yep. But same. We literally can't, because Abel wants me to like sit still snuggle him and read quietly. And Nora wants to ask me a question about every other word on the page while also doing like some kind of gymnastics move and asking me why we have to go to bed, even though we've done it every night at the same time her entire life.

[00:54:20] So it's just like, meanwhile, Abel's like, can I go to sleep now? 

[00:54:24] Alyssa: Yeah. This is exactly in my household. And. Also same. We can't do bedtime together. And it is so not how I envisioned it. I was like, oh, great, we'll have this, this will happen. We'll have 'em together. We'll, bonding family. Oh, it's gonna be so lovely.

[00:54:39] Yeah. No, no. Sage wants us to be quiet. He wants to climb up into his bed. He wants quiet. He wants the sound machine blasting. He wants the light on. He wants to sit his bed. He wants you to like tickle his arm or his head and then he will say, okay, you can go now. 

[00:54:55] Rachel: Mm-hmm. He 

[00:54:55] Alyssa: is like, we're done here. I'm gonna be by myself in the dark, in the quiet.

[00:54:58] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:59] Alyssa: Mila's like all over me. Hi Ma. Hi mama. Climbing all over my body. If I were to leave her before she was asleep, she would lose her ever loving s mm-hmm. Because everything that she wants in life is proximity and connection. Connection. So touch me and connect with me. Mm-hmm. And Sie does not want those things.

[00:55:20] And so he is like, get out. He'll say, you can go now. Yep. Mm-hmm. And it's funny, like when people have popped over and sometimes like if Aunt Maddie's staying here or Nana's doing bedtime or Grammy's doing bedtime, and they're like, oh my gosh, it's so nice to get to do Sage Jude's bedtime. And they come out and they're like, he kicked me out.

[00:55:37] Mm-hmm. And we're like, oh yeah, that's a part of bedtime. Yeah. Yep. It's like, so sweet and you're tickling his 

[00:55:42] Rachel: arm or whatever. And he's like, all right, bye. Yeah. Abel's actually the same. So I do stay in Abel's room, but he'll be like, mommy, can you come in my bed? And I will go in his bed for a few minutes and he'll be like, okay, you can go back to your bed now.

[00:55:53] Just like, I got my fill and now I'm Yep. And bye. Yep. Yeah. Um, who are we talking about today? So this actually kind of segues in 'cause we're talking about embracing the unexpected in family life with Rebecca Thompson. And this has been a thing for me of like. I envisioned like dinner time and bedtime to be this like family time that was gonna be like so incredible.

[00:56:19] Sure. And bonding and sweet. Um, and yeah, it doesn't work to do it that way. 

[00:56:25] Alyssa: No. Nope. I am so grateful that we work on a team of mostly moms who just share also their realities. I feel like. So there's myself and two other people on our team have very similar aged kids, and we will often just talk about how a much of a disaster dinner is.

[00:56:50] Rachel: Mm. 

[00:56:51] Alyssa: And that it is just one kid is all over your body and needs to sit on your lap while they're screaming about this thing and the other kid like, can't stop moving or is getting up or getting down or doesn't want this photo or it's too hot or it's too cold, or it needs to be the right temperature or cut it this other way and.

[00:57:08] It's a total issue. 

[00:57:09] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:10] Alyssa: And it's not like we're sitting down and really enjoying this connected time together where everybody's eating the same meal and loving it. 

[00:57:18] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:19] Alyssa: Or like, yeah, just eat what you need for your body to feel good and then great that you'll be good. And no, Mila will eat, for the most part, what we serve because she's not a sensory sensitive human.

[00:57:34] And sji, it's like everything's not the right temperature. It has this sauce on it, it's touching this other food. Please don't have that on my plate. 

[00:57:43] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:44] Alyssa: And I can't sit still for the meal and mila's like, can I sit on your lap because I need to be touching you. 

[00:57:49] Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's not lovely. It's not, it's the worst time of day actually.

[00:57:55] And like for me, my kids are older so it's less of that and more of like able, will sit at able, has sensory. Preferences about food and is not a great eater. But what he is good at is sitting at a table and focusing on eating. Mm-hmm. Nora will eat pretty much anything I put in front of her, but she cannot sit at the table.

[00:58:15] And I honestly don't even expect her to after she masks. She's so high masking at school and I'm like, this is not a hill I'm gonna die on. Um, but what is frustrating to me is then she'll be like, Abel, come play. Yes. And I'm like, okay. But he's sitting and eating. He needs to sit and eat. 'cause once he's pulled away, he's probably not gonna come back.

[00:58:35] Correct. And then later on he's dysregulated because he didn't eat enough and then he is asking for like crackers. Yeah. So it's that right now of like, yeah, again, opposing needs and like I am okay with Nora leaving the table, but I don't want her to have him come with her. But again, she's so connection based.

[00:58:56] Totally. She's like, I don't wanna leave the table if he's over here. And I'm like, okay. Well also it's a choice to stay at the table, but physically she can't. Yeah. So it's just like this. Ugh. Hate it. Hate dinner. Yeah. Hate it. Hate it. Mm-hmm. No one has the capacity for it. And that's what it is. It's like for me, I find I'm struggling in this season of life to like, um, get my mind ready for the second shift of the day.

[00:59:21] Like when work's over and then I'm going to pick them up. Yes. And knowing that like, they've worked so hard at school and they need connection and they need my presence, but I'm also like tired from a full day of being a grownup. Yes. And that like, push pull 

[00:59:37] Alyssa: is hard. Yeah. There are days that I just feel jealous that Zach works till five and then he steps in and has just less time with the dysregulation station.

[00:59:50] And then there are days that I feel so grateful that I get to get off earlier and see them more and whatever, whatever. But there are definitely days where I'm like, yeah, I wish I could be the one who walked in at five 15. 

[01:00:02] Rachel: Mm-hmm. And I feel like this ties into Rebecca's work and a lot of your conversation focused on fertility.

[01:00:13] Yeah. And birth. But a lot of it also is about how we continue to have expectations about who our kids will be and what our family dynamic will be. And at least in my experience forever, those are shifting where I'm like, okay, this is the person that they are. Yeah. So I can choose to fight it or I can reevaluate here, but that's hard to do.

[01:00:37] Alyssa: It's so hard to do. I think about it too, with like the relationship your co-parent has with the kids and a lot of folks enter into parenthood. Whether we know it or not, we have an idea of what we think our co-parent relationship with our kid's gonna be like. They're gonna be connected, they're gonna show up in these ways, they're gonna whatever, whatever.

[01:01:02] 'cause it's really easy. It's like the wedding versus the marriage. It's really easy to like dream about what life's gonna look like with these, this kid there, these kids there before they're there, and sucking the life out of you sometimes and overstimulating you and interrupting the flow that you had in your day to day, or the connection you had with your partner or whatever.

[01:01:28] And then to see your partner, co-parent, parent and realize like, oh, they're responding to things in ways that I don't like or feel uncomfortable for me or wasn't what I envisioned. And I think sometimes there's a grieving process there. For folks to enter into like, this is not what I thought this was gonna look like in terms of how we would co-parent or how they would respond to my kid in the relationship that they would have.

[01:02:01] And I think it can add to the pressure of like, well now I feel like I need to have a always safe, connected relationship with my child because my co-parent or my partner doesn't. 

[01:02:11] Rachel: Yeah, yeah. Uh, somebody that I'm in close relationship with has navigated this and it's hard because I feel like then the parent who feels responsible for being like the emotionally safe parent almost like ha almost feels like they have to overcompensate.

[01:02:29] Yes. So then it's like these two ends of the spectrum where one parent is maybe a little bit permissive or not holding boundaries or struggling to be like direct with their children because they're feeling like on the other end of that they're getting too much. Um, yeah, like authority, power over. Type of interaction.

[01:02:51] Yeah, it authoritarian, authoritative. I think authoritative is the one, the goal And authoritarian. Authoritarian. Yeah. We need a 

[01:03:00] Alyssa: different why's not the are close. Yeah. I know. Can we 

[01:03:03] Rachel: hate it?

[01:03:08] Um, but yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, one other thing that came up for me while you were chatting was noticing that often we don't even realize what our expectations are or how attached we are to our expectations until they're not met. Yeah. And like I was thinking about, I always was like, I'm gonna have three kids and I wanna have my kids really young and I wanna have them back to back.

[01:03:31] And like that was my plan and expectation. Um, and then I. Got cancer and then I had a baby and had postpartum depression and decided that we were gonna, our family was complete with two children. Um, and all of that took a lot of time to process and like, I felt grief, I felt guilt, just all kinds of feelings about not like fulfilling the expectation that I had kind of placed on myself from a really young age.

[01:04:08] Like early teens was when I was like, yeah, I'm having three kids and I'm having them back to back. Yeah, totally. You know? Um, and so I think it just comes in so many ways of like, things happen and we don't always get to show up the way we want to, or we don't always get to experience the things that we thought we were going to experience.

[01:04:31] And there is a 

[01:04:32] Alyssa: lot of grief that comes with that. Totally, a hundred percent. Even like with the embracing of like, who is this child or who am I parenting with? I grew up in a household of five kids. There was so much stimuli and noise and just, we were the landing zone for all neighborhood kids as well.

[01:04:53] We didn't have a lock on our door. People stay at our house all the time, and I love that. I love just like being surrounded by people and having, and I don't care if the house is a mess. I don't, I'm a terrible host in that. I, I'm never gonna, like, you're not gonna walk into my house. I'm gonna be like, oh, here I made you banana bread and here's a picture of water that's set out or whatever.

[01:05:19] Mm-hmm. My like approach to this is what's mine is yours, come in, take stuff out of the fridge. If you need a snack, grab it. Like, that's how I grew up and I love it. And I don't care if everything's a disaster and loud. 

[01:05:33] Rachel: Yep. 

[01:05:34] Alyssa: And I married a sensory sensitive human who was an only child. And it is. So like when we had sage, I think he was surprised by how regulated he actually was through Sage's first couple years of life that he thought the mess was gonna be harder or the noise or whatever.

[01:05:58] But sages also a sensory sensitive human who is not very loud and isn't climbing all over things. And it was the mess of one kid. And I mostly cleaned it up throughout the day. Mm-hmm. It was a mess of one kid. And then we had Mila just last night. He was like, the way that I feel now is the way that I expected to feel entering into parenthood.

[01:06:23] And he is like, but when I start my day and she just wants to talk. And she does, she wakes up and she's like, hi dad. And she wants to be on you, and she's talking to you and engaging with you. And Sie wants to be left alone for the first like 45 minutes after being awake. Mm-hmm. And that's how Zach works too.

[01:06:42] And he wakes up with a kid who's like all over him and talking to him. He is like, and then I walk down and immediately she's like, dumping things and there's a mess. And I'm just trying to, I don't even have coffee in my system yet. And then Sage comes down and he wants to not be in her space or in her face or have that, and she comes over and she's like, hi.

[01:07:01] Hi. High five. High five. And, and Sage is like, I don't wanna connect with her. And then everything gets louder and more chaotic. Yeah. And he's like, and then I'm so overstimulated by it. And for me, I also expected Zach to be more over stimulated when Sage was born and then adjusted to like, oh no, cool. He's got more skills for this than I realized.

[01:07:23] Or it's not as overwhelming for him or whatever. And then we added the second, but my expectations of how he would respond, were already set. 

[01:07:30] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:32] Alyssa: And so then when he like loses it, 'cause he is overstimulated and I'm like, you've been with the kids for 45 minutes? Mm-hmm. And he's like, yeah, and it was 44 too long this morning.

[01:07:45] Right. Like, yeah. And I just have low compassion for it because it's not how my nervous system works. Like I'm not as overstimulated as he is in those first 45. 

[01:07:59] Rachel: Yeah. So I'm the sensory sensitive human in my marriage. Um, but interestingly I. Because I think I spend more time with the kids than he does. I also am like, okay, wait, you've only been with them for a couple of hours.

[01:08:12] So like you can't complain right now. But I will say I get super overwhelmed in the morning and just this morning, um, before I had had coffee, Nora had asked me to French braid her hair for school. And then Abel had asked me to button his shirt and also super glue one of his necklaces that had broken and also help him pick out a toy to bring to school.

[01:08:35] One that nobody had ever seen before. And then Cody needed me to sign a document 'cause we're like purchasing land right now, so I have something I need you to sign. And I literally was like, I have been out of bed for like two minutes and you all, three of you have asked me for something. Can you not?

[01:08:54] Alyssa: Yeah, that is, you are Zach. And my head immediately goes into like, okay, triage, I can sign this document real quick. That's off my plate. I like, I just, oh, that's what immediate go into that. But it doesn't overwhelm my nervous system. 

[01:09:08] Rachel: Okay. I, it overwhelms my nervous system, but imm just like, same with Zach, so I'm like able, um, I'll super glue your necklace while you're at school.

[01:09:16] Nora. Let me drink like half my coffee. I'll French braid your hair. Cody, bring me the paper. I'll sign that. And I had to just like hand off the toy situation. This is like a thing for Abel. He always wants to bring a toy that nobody's ever seen before. And it's like, okay, well you've been trying to do that every day of kindergarten and it's almost over.

[01:09:31] So we're like running out of stuff. So we're all like suggesting things to him and he is like not wanting, it's like not the right thing and I'm just like, okay, dad's gonna help you because I'm gonna lose my GD mind because I know this is important to you, Abel, but I don't fucking care. Yeah, what you went to school right now?

[01:09:51] Okay. I don't care. So, you know, and I can't say that to him, so I'm like, buddy. Totally, totally. It's so hard to find something. I think Daddy could probably help you.

[01:10:05] Alyssa: God, dad. Dad wants some. Sometimes I do feel whelmed when I, it's more for me towards the end of the day, like yesterday when it was five 15 and. I also have just been like a nonstop parenting and working, and Zach worked on vacation and I every nap time, every whatever, I was doing work also on vacation.

[01:10:32] So it was like solo parenting and then there were just no downtime really. Mm-hmm. It's not a knock to you, Kai. It just, things came up and, uh, then we came back and it was like Easter and then I was presenting a full day the next day. So on Easter, like during nap time, I was doing work. After bedtime, I was doing work.

[01:10:51] Like there just hasn't been a lot of downtime. 

[01:10:53] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[01:10:54] Alyssa: And so yesterday it was like five 15, Zach got out of work and just started making dinner instead of being like, Hey, do you wanna, do you wanna go make dinner? And I'll hang with the kids, which is what I wish I would've popped in and been like, can we switch?

[01:11:07] Yep. But I didn't clock it for myself yet. And then both kids were just like needing things from me at the same time where I'm like. Trying to help me with something and say, just in my face, like, mom, mom, mama, come Mom, I need you to, I need to show you this. Mama. Come here. I wanna show you, mama. Can you watch me?

[01:11:24] And I'm like, no. And now I never wanna see you again for the rest of my life. Like,

[01:11:31] like that is where I get overstimulated actually on that back nine, uh, on the second half of the day where I've just like been doing. Mm-hmm. But I, when I start the day, it's actually easier for me. 

[01:11:44] Rachel: So Cody's the morning parent and I'm the night parent. That's how we, yeah. 

[01:11:49] Alyssa: That's how we should structure it.

[01:11:51] Uh, 'cause Zach also, I feel like, does better in the evening because he goes to a desk job where he sits mm-hmm. At his desk from eight 30 to five or whatever. And I don't, yeah. Uh, but if I'm waking up nursing overnight, I don't wanna get up right away in the morning. So he gets up with her. 

[01:12:13] Rachel: Yeah, that makes so much sense.

[01:12:16] So like I, it's gotta be circadian rhythm, but Right. When it's time to pick up the kids, I'm like the most tired I've ever been, you know? Yeah. Ugh. 'cause about three o'clock you get a hit of melatonin. I hate it. Mm-hmm. So I'm like feeling dead to the world. But then at like five 30 I'm like, ready to go again.

[01:12:33] And so, yeah. Well, do you 

[01:12:34] Alyssa: have a little coffee at three? 

[01:12:35] Rachel: Well, hell yeah.

[01:12:39] Um, and so, which actually I've been drinking less coffee and drinking more hot, like I'm drinking hot coffee right now. It's so weird. Wow. I know. Who am I? I've never 

[01:12:48] Alyssa: seen you drink 

[01:12:49] Rachel: except for hot first thing in the morning. The very first cup is the only cup that's hot for you. I know. I don't know what's, ever since I had the flu, I've just been like craving warm drinks.

[01:12:57] I don't know what that means. Interesting. Um, then at night, I. Have more capacity, which like Cody has a really demanding day job. Mm-hmm. Much more demanding than totally my job. Um, and so even though he is a sensory seeker and like loves activity when he gets home, it's like all he has in him too. Yeah. 

[01:13:20] Alyssa: He also gets up early.

[01:13:21] Rachel: He gets up early and he also is like the playful parent. So it's not like he comes home and just like sits with them. They're like, dad, let's go outside. Let's play hide and seek, do daddy robot take me on the go-kart. Come play soccer with me. And he does. So then mm-hmm. When it's like it's seven o'clock and it's time for bed and he's worked a full day and been playful, he's just like, I need it to be over.

[01:13:41] Yeah. That makes sense. So I'm, I can be the calm parent, um, at night, but definitely not in the morning. Oh, that was the other thing. He was showing me this like holographic card. So Abel like literally so close to my eyes that I couldn't actually see it. And he like, wanted a response out of me, but wouldn't let me pull it away from my eye to like actually look at it.

[01:14:00] So I was just like, yep, that's cool. Awesome. Can't see it. I can do nothing 

[01:14:03] Alyssa: with this. It's 

[01:14:04] Rachel: in 

[01:14:04] Alyssa: my 

[01:14:05] Rachel: face. Literally. It's touching my eye. 

[01:14:07] Alyssa: Yeah, no, I, I actually was, um, one of the parts of my job is that I'll sit on in some tier three meetings, uh, for public schools where if we're working with a public school and they have a kid that might be in a classroom that we're working with, sometimes we're in on those meetings of like, what are the goals from a social emotional perspective or regulation perspective.

[01:14:31] And so I was in a tier three meeting and this parent was like, yeah, I just. I, I know I should respond differently, but when my child's asking for connection and has something like in my face, it's like, look at this book. Can we read this book? She's like, I'm so annoyed, and I know that like she's just trying to ask me to connect whatever.

[01:14:53] It's like so thoughtful, so intentional, so reflective, and I was like, well, pause. No, it is annoying. Mm-hmm. For a kid to put a book in your face and talk to you while you're trying to cook dinner is annoying. It makes sense for you to be annoyed. Yeah. Like there isn't a world where we're just like, oh yeah, no, I, I see beyond the behavior and I see the needs, so I don't experience feelings.

[01:15:18] Right. No, you're, that is still just annoying to have somebody shove something in your face while you're trying to do something else. Yeah, and it's like you're allowed 

[01:15:25] Rachel: to be annoyed. The knowledge that they're doing it for connection doesn't erase the fact that it's super annoying. Yeah, 

[01:15:32] Alyssa: exactly. Two, two things can be true.

[01:15:34] Thanks, Brene. Like I can be annoyed by this and see beyond the behavior at the same time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, for real. Oh. I think the, what I love about this book and this conversation is how it encourages us to examine what our expectations were or are in order to do the processing work, to move through those and be able to hold space or create space for new expectations.

[01:16:04] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[01:16:05] Alyssa: Yeah. Cheers.

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