Embracing Imperfection in Parenthood with Kate Hamilton
00:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I get to hang out with Kate Hamilton. She is married to Charlie since 2000 and is a mother of two young adult men who are independent, confident, and productive college students. Some might say she's an unlikely writer because of her dyslexia, yet her life experiences compelled her to write The Imperfect Parent: A Nonjudgmental Guide to Raising Children in the Modern World. She earned an MBA in international business and is a former corporate executive turned mother and entrepreneur. When Kate is not coaching parents and their children, you'll find her volunteering with Lemonade Day, a youth entrepreneur program, planning the next family adventure, or working with Charlie in San Juan, Puerto Rico. It was fun to chat with Kate because we know that perfection is not the goal. I also really enjoyed this breakdown with Rach, and you get to hear some of my real -time takeaways where Rach was helping me understand some guilt that I've been experiencing as a parent and really diving into like what's coming up for me there. I also just always feel so seen in how Rach responds to me in the moment. So I hope you enjoy the breakdown of this bad boy as well. All right, folks, let's dive in.
00:01:21 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:01:41 Alyssa
Yeah. I live now in Burlington, Vermont. This is where my husband's from.
00:01:47 Kate
Awesome.
00:01:48 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:01:48 Kate
You get to experience the weather and the seasons.
00:01:52 Alyssa
Oh man, there's snow on our ground right now. It's real. It is real, Kate. How long have you been in Puerto Rico?
00:02:01 Kate
11 years now.
00:02:03 Alyssa
Rad. What brought you there?
00:02:05 Kate
It's one of those things. You get to a point in your life and you want a new adventure. My husband and I are always full of adventures.
00:02:13 Alyssa
That's fun.
00:02:15 Kate
And so we both ... My background is international business, and so I'd always wanted to live overseas and struggled at learning Spanish and I still am struggling at learning Spanish. And so we both wanted our kids to learn another language. So when they were in second grade, we took them to Guatemala and we're like, oh, we're going to spend like three months here and they're going to learn and then we'll go back to the States and I'll be great. Didn't work well.
00:02:51 Alyssa
And then you stayed.
00:02:52 Kate
Well, we went to Guatemala first and it was a huge failure. We learned that the kids together were not going to learn Spanish because they could talk to each other. They didn't have any peer pressure. And three months was ... They couldn't make ... A long story, it failed miserably. And then we decided, okay, we're done. We need to go back. This is not working.
00:03:19 Alyssa
And where was back? Where did you go back to?
00:03:21 Kate
We were in Austin, Texas at the time. And so we went back to Austin, hung out there. And then my husband comes back with the opportunity. Hey, let's go to Puerto Rico. At least, you know, we'll get, the kids will have like peer pressure. They're still English spoken. You know, let's try there. It's still in the United States, kind of thing.
00:03:46 Alyssa
Sure.
00:03:47 Kate
And it worked. And both the boys are fluent.
00:03:50 Alyssa
Oh, awesome.
00:03:52 Kate
They have tons of friends here, but again, most of their friends here all have gone to college in the States, and most of them will probably stay in the States for a few years and then come back, depending if the opportunities are here.
00:04:10 Alyssa
Yeah. So interesting. Where are you from originally?
00:04:14 Kate
Maryland.
00:04:15 Alyssa
Okay. Kate, you're a mystery.
00:04:19 Kate
I know. I mean, I've lived in tons of different states, lots of different countries. My dad was an FBI agent. It makes more sense there.
00:04:32 Alyssa
Sure, sure, sure. That pulls back some of the layers for us.
00:04:36 Kate
Yeah. There's the quick answer to all that.
00:04:39 Alyssa
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Explained. What brought you into this space where you're like, I want to write this book outside of maybe be just all of us being imperfect parents? Like what really spearheaded that for you?
00:04:55 Kate
So, really, you know, I'd like to start with my parents did the best they possibly could with the information they had.
00:05:05 Alyssa
Sure, all of us, right?
00:05:06 Kate
We all do, and be it right or wrong, it was a difficult childhood.
00:05:13 Alyssa
Sure.
00:05:14 Kate
But I don't blame them, but I say that to tell you that there was a lot of different interesting things that I had to learn and do and wanted to conscientiously do things a little different with my kids. So I really started out by saying to my husband, oh, no, no, no, we're not having kids right away. I'm gonna figure this out. I'm gonna learn. I'm gonna read every book out there and I'm gonna be like the perfect parent.
00:05:46 Alyssa
Sure, sure. If only reading all the things lent itself to perfection.
00:05:52 Kate
Oh, oh, oh, oh, and hence the title, The Imperfect Parent, because I realized, I mean, I realized two things. One, I was never going to be ready to have kids, or not.
00:06:04 Alyssa
No. Yeah. Still not ready. I have two of them.
00:06:08 Kate
And that no two children are even going to be alike.
00:06:13 Alyssa
Correct.
00:06:13 Kate
Even if I think I'm ready, I'm not. And so stop kidding myself. And so, you know, I needed to, my husband's like, okay, let's rip off the Band -Aid and just go for it because it, and his comment was to me, well, it can't be as bad as how you grew up. I mean, I was like,
00:06:34 Alyssa
Only one way to go.
00:06:35 Kate
Exactly, so the bar was set low. And again, I don't want to throw my parents under the bus, because they did the best they possibly could with the information they had, and we all do.
00:06:48 Alyssa
Sure.
00:06:49 Kate
But one of the things I really, really take strongly when I say that is, is that I, by saying I'm an imperfect parent, I'm also saying that I'm really quick to say I'm sorry.
00:07:04 Alyssa
Sure.
00:07:05 Kate
And I have to be slow to judge. And I have to, have to learn from my past. And by having those three things as my mantra of being imperfect, and my kids know, hey, call me out. I give my kids the privilege to call me out, in fact, and I ask them and somewhat need their help and support to call me out also. Because I'm not perfect and I need them to help me to be a better mom to them. Because I don't know what it means for them, then I can't do better.
00:07:48 Alyssa
How did that shift look for you? If you went into this being like, I'm going to read all the books, I'm going to do this differently than my parents, I'm going to be this perfect parent, and you have your first kid, and what was that trajectory like to the point where you're like, oh, turns out I can't be a perfect parent. Talk to me about that journey from I am going to do this perfectly. I think this is something a lot of people can relate to where I came into my first kid and I'm like, yeah, I'm going to nail this. They're going to be sleeping this way. They're going to be eating these things. We're going to speak to each other this way, whatever. And then I get to kid number two and I'm like, oh, what actually matters to me? Because I'm going to drop the ball in a lot of this. So what actually matters to me? And being able to fine tune that and recognizing that there's going to be tons of imperfection. And so where do I not mind there being a bunch of imperfection? And so I'm just curious, what was your journey from like, yeah, I'm going to do this perfectly. I'm not going to make the same mistakes that my parents did to being in a space where you're like, no, it turns out I'm going to make a bunch of mistakes.
00:08:54 Kate
I'm going to make my own mistakes and they're going to be really interesting, my own mistakes. They're going to be doozies also. I think for me, my boys are 14 months apart. I don't advise that for most people, but it worked out great for me. It was purely an aspect of I wasn't able to do it perfectly. I mean, it just, there, you, I mean, and I think the more, my first kid I thought was difficult and I didn't know what difficult was, and then I had my second one and, and the first one, I was sick for the first 10 days of, after giving birth, I was very sick. And then with the second one, my son was in the ICU for 10 days. And so it was really a different scenario. And I was really sick during my entire pregnancy. I don't do that well, I say.
00:09:56 Alyssa
Yeah, oh, I hate pregnancy. It's like a magical and miracle and all that, and I hate it.
00:10:03 Kate
I'm very grateful for the two boys that I have, but I don't think that I could have had three or four because I mean, I could have if I wanted to, but my body is not made to do that as well as other people are.
00:10:18 Alyssa
Sure. My body actually does it fine, but it's so uncomfortable. People who are like, oh my gosh, I love being pregnant and feel the glow, 10 out of 10 cannot relate. But did you find yourself, how did you navigate the guilt or sometimes for folks, shame of of moving into the space of, oh, I can't do this perfectly. You know, you said once you had these two boys 14 months apart and you realized like, yeah, I can't do this perfectly. What comes up for you about you as a parent in that space?
00:10:53 Kate
Oh, I have a great story, you're gonna laugh. It's like your typical story. Like, so my husband's like, hey, why don't we get this wipe heater? It'll heat up the wipes and it'll be good. And I was like, so, and for the first child, he suggests us getting that. And I was like, oh, that's such a waste. That's just crazy. I'm never gonna get, never, I used the word. I'm never gonna buy one of those things that heats up your wipes. And then the next kid comes along and I'm running to the store to go buy that thing that heats up your wipes, because guess what? I learned that if you used a warm wipe, it was so much easier. He wouldn't scream, he wouldn't yell, he was a happier child. And so it was that realization for me that, oh my gosh, that word never. That word never should never be in my vocabulary. And there were a lot of little things. I mean, having had my background of growing up, I had done a lot of self -reflection and I learned, and I'm a systems person, so I learned right away that if I figure out the system and figure out, and even in myself, if I can name it, I can tame it, meaning if I understand what my brain is going through and thinking about, then I can help myself move through that shame, that upset, that sadness, that whatever feeling that I'm having, I can move through it and get to the other side of it so that I then don't have the guilt. I get to deal with it, and I get to see when it's coming up, what's happening, and why. Why am I giving myself that guilt? And, I mean, and, you know, I joke and say this, but it's really true. The book is really for me to be a better me. And it really taught me how to write down what I was thinking and doing and why it was important to take away some of that, you know, to learn from my mistakes, to see the path, and why did I not feel that shame, like you were saying? I didn't feel it because I thought through it. I identified, oh, I said the word never before, and never, that's stupid of me. Oh, why would I say, I mean, and guess what? I can forgive myself for saying the word never and learn from it. It doesn't mean I'm not going to make any more mistakes, but it is, I'm not going to use never again.
00:13:55 Alyssa
That's right. Well, it's like the folks who don't have kids yet who are like, I'm never going to do X, Y, and Z, and then they have a kid, and it's like, turns out I think co -sleeping is great for us or whatever, and really being able to embrace the unknown of it all. I think for myself, I can sit with the guilt. What I'm hearing from you that really resonates for me is the guilt as a communicator, right? That when you notice the guilt, it's an opportunity to say like, what's this communicating? Why do I feel guilty? And understand where it's coming from. For me, guilt is one of my favorite emotions because it lets me know when I'm outside of my value system. them. And sometimes it's, you know, a one -off mistake situation where, yeah, I lost my cool with my kids or I wasn't kind to my partner. I overrode his boundary or whatever it is. And sometimes it's like, no, this is a reoccurring pattern and I need to look at how I can better support our systems so that I'm not stuck in this pattern as it is where it's not working for us. And that's where like, what I'm hearing from you is behavior as a communication, right? That guilt is letting us know that we've done something that feels out of alignment and we get to learn from it. I think there's this idea, because there's a lot of talk about imperfection and how it is welcomed here and there is no perfection in this. But I think that there's still this idea for folks that like, yeah, but I could get to a place where I'm perfect or I'm not supposed to make mistakes. Yeah, you can make a mistake. My friend can make one. I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, I've done a thousand times. Like it's fine. Or my kids could make them and I would want them to forgive themselves, but I am not supposed to make them. And if I make a mistake, I am bad. Not that I did something wrong, but that I am wrong or bad. And I wonder if you could speak to this, and I wonder how it might tie into your childhood, if you had any learnings around this of like, were you allowed to make mistakes? Were you allowed to be imperfect?
00:16:13 Kate
So in my childhood, there was really no governing. I mean, my parents were somewhat absentee at times. So I did, in a lot of respects, raise myself and my siblings, and it was, my mom was sick and my dad was gone, and then my dad was sick and my mom was working. So it was just, you know, but the truth of the matter is, is that it was a recognition of patterns and recognizing the patterns. And it really goes back to this whole idea of failure, okay?
00:17:02 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:17:02 Kate
And so what is failure? Because in my opinion, and this is where I got to, failure is a bump in the road in a journey. And sometimes failure tells you you're on the wrong road. And sometimes failure tells you you need to try harder. And sometimes failure tells you that, well, you've learned something. And so it's how you perceive this idea and what you're allowing yourself, imperfection or failure and how you react to it. And so I try to teach my kids that failure, it is what it is. In order to learn to walk, we fell down. Is that failure? Well, if somebody wants to call it failure, is that a mistake? I call it learning. And so where's the nuance between failure and learning? I mean, do you spell a word wrong to learn how to spell it right? Or does everybody just spell it right? No. I mean, some kids do just spell it right, but some kids spell it wrong. And so I think it's how you react to the whole idea of imperfection, mistakes, and failures. If you see them as being catastrophic every time and insurmountable and unpassable, well, they're gonna hold you back.
00:18:51 Alyssa
I think one distinction for me, just yesterday on the way home from school pickup, I have a three and a half year old.
00:18:58 Kate
Fun age.
00:18:59 Alyssa
Yeah, he is so fun. He asked, mom, how was your day today? This is a favorite question of his. How was your work day today? And I was like, you know what, buddy? Actually, it was really exciting because I've been working to try and figure out a problem and try to figure out a solution for it. And I've been working on it for a long time and I couldn't quite figure it out. And I think I figured it out today. And I'm really excited about that. And he said, oh, I know what that's like. He said, I was trying to build this rocket ship with my Legos and I worked yesterday and two days yesterday and three days yesterday on trying to figure out how to build this rocket ship. And I couldn't get it. And this morning I figured it out and it was three days, mom. And I was like, yeah, buddy, that's right. Sometimes you have to keep working at things. But one distinction that I've realized for myself is that if it feels like it's just about me or I can be in a work problem or trying to figure out a systems challenge or whatever, and I'm fine with mistakes over and over and over as a part of learning, as part of growth. Like, ah, we haven't figured this out yet. How do we come back to the drawing table on this? Or what's a systems shift that might work here? And like that brainstorming learning hypothesis piece, I have all the patience for in the world. And I don't see it as like, I am failing. I see it as, oh, these are learning bumps in the road. The distinction for me is when it involves somebody else, which is where parenting comes into play or as a partner or as a friend. And when I make mistakes in relationship, my inner voice and inner dialogue is different. And it does feel like it's higher stakes, of like, this isn't just about my life. Or if I don't solve this work problem, okay, so what? It's now affecting this other person's life. And what's that going to do for or to them? And that for me is a distinction that I have a hard time with. and I frankly don't know how to navigate. It really is a different inner dialogue for me.
00:21:06 Kate
I can relate completely because that's probably the inner dialogue, the reason why I didn't want to have, or kept on waiting to have kids because that, the stakes of screwing up. So for me, it was the acknowledgement that, oh, guess what? I too am going to screw up that relationship. But again, that's why I go back to my, I'm quick to say I'm sorry.
00:21:32 Alyssa
Yeah. The repair piece is so huge.
00:21:35 Kate
Exactly. And so, and slow to judge. And that goes back to then reframing what even other people say to me. And knowing my spouse is speaking to me always in a mindset of trying to help me. He's not trying to hurt me. He's not putting me down. He's not... In my book, I talk about this dress. He tells me the dress looks ugly on me, okay? He's not telling me... And of course, the first thing I think, oh, he said I'm ugly. And of course, he's not saying I'm ugly. He said the dress is ugly. But my mind thinks he says I'm ugly. And so I need to always think that his intention is. And guess what? I get to choose how I receive what he says. Regardless of what he says, I get to choose that. And so I choose to think all his words are positive. Even when they're not.
00:22:36 Alyssa
Sure. This is what Brené Brown calls the most generous interpretation.
00:22:42 Kate
That's exactly where I learned it from.
00:22:44 Alyssa
Yeah, exactly. Brené is the queen over here.
00:22:48 Kate
I love her.
00:22:50 Alyssa
Yeah. Brené's interpretation here, or the MGI most generous interpretation, is so helpful, I think, in parenting too, because it's the difference between me walking into my child and there's like something's been cut up that's not supposed to be cut up, and there's glue being used and whatever, and me being like, excuse me, what is going on here? you know you're not supposed to cut this. I'm taking the scissors. You clearly can't be trusted with them alone. It's a difference between that and me popping in and saying, oh, well, tell me more about what you're doing over here. Help me understand what's going on. With the true angle of curiosity and my MGI there, my most generous interpretation being they are trying to create something. They're not doing something from a place of misbehavior or devious nature, but really that he's curious and he had an idea and wanted to create it and I can help him with an appropriate thing to cut up to make this happen or something like that. But really coming at it from that MGI, I love that. I love that you bring that into the work here of the slow to judge piece that we've got to give that most generous interpretation. And being quick to say, I'm sorry, you know, I think that this is the piece of imperfection. Again, so much of Brené's work is coming up for me here of like repair is so crucial because it's the difference between what so many of us needed versus what we got, that we got our parents imperfections, but not a lot of us got repair.
00:24:35 Kate
Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:36 Alyssa
And how powerful that would have been.
00:24:38 Kate
And how powerful that would have been. And my mom and I today have a really great relationship because I knew I, A, wanted that relationship with her, but B, I then took the initiative to make it and spoke out to her and said, hey, listen, I know you did your best and I don't hold you accountable for anything than your best because you did your best given the situation you had. And we all have our hangups. And talking about hangups, one of the things that I did receive from my family was we are not quiet and we don't tend to talk in a very quiet manner. I'm calling myself out, I yell.
00:25:32 Alyssa
Sure. Yeah.
00:25:34 Kate
But I've had my boys hold me accountable for it. And my boys say, Mom, my ears, I can hear you. Like, Mom, your voice is way above the decibels of normal at this moment. And they would come up with the most hilarious ways of calling me out as one, boys would do, and especially during their teenage years because, you know, old dogs, new trick, sometimes hard. And so it took, I mean, I still sometimes yell. I'm very emotional.
00:26:13 Alyssa
Well, it's not a bad thing to do. I think the awareness piece is really crucial in that repair. And I think one of the problems here when I think about social media and like, just, I'm thinking of like parenting accounts and parenting experts of which a lot of folks would lump us into. I think there's this messaging out there that like you are going to notice your reaction and you might initially be like fired up at your kid, but then you're going to take some deep breaths and you're going to give yourself a mantra and you're going to respond with intention all the time. And I'm just like, girl, I am not. Sometimes I'm not even trying to be honest. I'm in survival mode and I'm like, yeah, I'm operating on a little bit of sleep and we're trying to, everybody's making noise and I'm overstimulated and I need to tap out, but I can't. My husband's not home yet and now he's running late from work and I'm trying to get dinner on the table and I have hangry kids and one wants to be on me and talking to me and the other one wants space and no one to be talking to them, but wants me near them and I can't meet everybody's needs at the same time. And it is just like, Oh my word. And in those moments, like I am so far from a perfect parent. Right. And like, I think that if what you're consuming on social media are accounts that are like, yeah, totally. Yeah. I'm, I am fired up in my kid right now. And now I'm taking a break and I'm going to vent about how I'm fired up, but I'm, I'm doing it in a space where I'm not doing it at my child. and I am going to regulate and then I'm going back. It's like, okay, cool. Still a lot of us aren't doing that. A lot of us are losing our cool in front of or with our children and then we're navigating repair. It's not that we're like always catching this before it explodes in front of our kids. And I think that's part of the problem here is that some people are presenting that. And so it looks for folks scrolling on the outside, like, okay, I should be getting to that point where maybe I still have these thoughts, but then I'm always able to regulate and then eventually respond.
00:28:24 Kate
Yeah, I, you know, I mean, when I was younger, you know, Facebook was the thing and you had these perfect pictures on Facebook of people doing everything perfect. And I'm like, and I used to say to my kids, guys, the grass is not greener on somebody else's place. I mean, everybody's poop smells, and if they're trying to tell you it doesn't, they're lying. And we all have our strengths, and we all have our weaknesses, and what they are sometimes are how we were trained from our parents. And that's one of the biggest things about my book that I really wanted to put out there was is that, listen, generationally, we pass down and we assume, twofold, generationally, we learn from our parents how to parent. And unless we're conscientious about doing something different or asking the why behind it, we're going to do the same thing because we don't know any better either.
00:29:38 Alyssa
Even if we are conscientious, sometimes we're going to do the same thing.
00:29:41 Kate
That's my whole point about the yelling. I'm very conscientious that I yell and get excited and are very easily to use my outside voice, not my inside voice. It happens often and frequently with me, but I didn't want my kids to learn that and think that that was okay. And that's why I said with them, hey, listen, if you're correcting mom's behavior, hopefully you're not seeing that as being something that's good. You're seeing that as being something that mom even needs help with. And I taught my kids from a very young age that, listen, mom's not perfect. She's going to make mistakes. and I'm helping you with your mistakes and you get to help me with my mistakes. And they're gonna be different areas because we're different people.
00:30:43 Alyssa
Yeah, but that they're allowed to give you feedback is so crucial and huge there. And yeah, it's one of those things where I'm like, that's not something that I think a lot of us grew up with. There was no like, all right, let me give you a feedback on how this is landing for me, mom and dad. Yeah, feedback not wanted.
00:31:04 Kate
Oh, I have gotten performance appraisals from my kids. And because I come
00:31:11 Kate
from corporate America and so a lot of the things that we did in our house were very kind of corporate America -esque because that's what I knew. And I was like, it was different from how I was raised. So I was like, okay, let's do it this way. Let's try this. And so, you know, performance appraisals are definitely something that we let the 360 review.
00:31:34 Alyssa
I love it, I love it. I think it really requires us as adults to check our ego and to be humble and to be humbled and to also like recognize where we're going to have bias and that you can receive feedback from somebody and also not every piece of feedback is going to be constructive or helpful, right? They're going to get some feedback from your kid that's like, you're the meanest mom in the world because you won't let them do something where you know that it is in their best interest and you have to be their mom and not their friend right now.
00:32:18 Kate
Exactly.
00:32:19 Alyssa
And you have to set a boundary. And they still get to vent about it. It doesn't mean your your boundary changes, right? And there's difference between that feedback, then, hey, when you yell, it really hurts my ears and I actually have a harder time hearing you. Like those pieces of feedback are different. And it's for us as the adults to be able to discern like what's actually constructive feedback that I can shift to be in relationship with them versus what's my role as their parent and they are disappointed about something that has to stand. Oh, well, thank you so much for writing this. Where can folks find you, connect with you, learn more about your work, your book?
00:33:02 Kate
My book is on Amazon, so please, you know, it's The Imperfect Parent: A Nonjudgmental Guide to Raising Kids in the Modern World. Kate Hamilton is my name. You can buy it at different Barnes and Noble. Sometimes they have them in the stores, and sometimes they don't. But you can definitely get it online at Barnes & Noble and Amazon. And then also you can go to my website, it's kate-hamilton.com, and you can buy it there. And I also have a little guide, if you want to sign up for, that helps you with babysitters and or even family members. It gives you a list of questions that you can answer about your child so that you can then hand off to the babysitter or family member who's watching the kids so that when you leave... Because I don't know, when I was raising my kids, there was never an extra 20 minutes to tell the babysitter all the little idiosyncrasies that I wanted them to know about my child. And so, if I had it written down, so I would have this guide written down and my friends all are like, my goodness, that's great. And it didn't make the book, and so it's on my website.
00:34:30 Alyssa
Perfect. Perfect. Well, thank you for creating that, Kate, and for writing this book. I'm grateful for it.
00:34:37 Kate
Well, thank you, Alyssa, for everything you're doing too in this area. I mean, I really appreciate how much you're supporting kids in general and parents because, you know, I've just finished your book and I love it, love it, love it. It's awesome.
00:34:53 Alyssa
Thank you. Thank you so much. That's so sweet. Appreciate that. Thank you.
00:34:58 Alyssa
Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.
00:35:01 Alyssa
[Music]
00:35:09 Alyssa
So, how's it going being a work -from -home mom with a sick kid? Super easy to get everything done.
00:35:17 Rachel
Yeah. You're going to hear Abel singing to himself, and he's already come in once. I've been in this room for like four minutes, and he's already come in once. So I don't know what it's going to be.
00:35:32 Alyssa
Whats going on?
00:35:32 Rachel
He just has had a really rough cough for like all week and I've pushed him to go to school because I've needed to get things done and last night he got home from school and like he couldn't stop crying like no matter what it was he couldn't stop crying and like the usual suspects for helping like I was like oh do you want me to make you a yummy snack and he was like no I hate yummy snacks I hate eating and I was like okay do you want to go take a bath he was like no I hate baths, baths are the worst. And I'm just like, all right, you're just beyond fried. And so I gave both my kids the option to stay home today. He's still hacking, Nora's coughing. She wanted to go to school because they're doing sex ed and she didn't want to miss it, which makes sense to me.
00:36:19 Alyssa
So on brand.
00:36:19 Rachel
And yeah, she like doesn't want to feel left out of that or like whatever.
00:36:24 Alyssa
Also her jam is connection.
00:36:24 Rachel
So she could have stayed home too, really. Yeah. If all her friends are taking this class and then she's not there, then they're going to be able to talk about things that she won't be able to. You know what I mean? It's that whole thing.
00:36:37 Alyssa
Or even just hanging out without her. I was just talking about how I also am a connection -seeking human more so than sensory -seeking. I'm connection -seeking. That's what drives me in most things. When I was little, I have four brothers, three older brothers, one younger brother, and my parents did this thing that now looking back, I'm like, what were you even doing? Hate this. I also, in the moment, hated it. The boys got to go to bed at 9 and I went to bed at 8:30 and why? Why did they get – because I was younger, I like needed a half hour more of sleep and that was going to be the game changer. And every time when I would have to go up to bed, my brother Andrew, who's four years older than me, would be like, all right, guys, let's get ready for the party. Like so -and -so is coming over, we're going to have brownies, we're going to whatever. And he would just be rude.
00:37:36 Rachel
Tease you.
00:37:37 Alyssa
Yes. And I would be like, mom, they're going to have a party without me, blah, blah. And she was like, do you think they're really going to have a party? And I'd be like, that's what Andrew's saying. And she would be like, just ignore him. And my response always to just ignore him was maybe you shouldn't raise a jerk.
00:37:56 Rachel
Yeah. Yep. It's a trigger for Noni too.
00:38:03 Alyssa
I feel her. I feel her.
00:38:04 Rachel
So she could have... And part of me really wanted her to stay home because it would have been easier right now if I was like, hey, I'll pay you five bucks if you keep him out of my hair for an hour. But she wanted to go. So she went. And I'm supposed to go to Boston tomorrow. I am going to Boston tomorrow with my friends.
00:38:24 Alyssa
Oh, right. I forgot about that.
00:38:26 Rachel
Mm -hmm. For the first time, I'm leaving them just for a fun thing, not a work thing. I've never left the kids with Cody for fun.
00:38:34 Alyssa
Hang on. The idea of I'm just leaving them for a fun thing for the first time is wild.
00:38:41 Rachel
Yeah. I mean, I've come to your births. I've left them for your births. I've left them. Actually, I left them for my 30th birthday party that you gave me.
00:38:49 Alyssa
That's right. But that was like less than 24 hours.
00:38:54 Rachel
Totally. And then.
00:38:58 Alyssa
And we forced you.
00:38:59 Rachel
Yeah.
00:39:01 Alyssa
We were like, guess what? You don't have to plan anything. We're like, your kids are taken care of. They're staying at your mom's. We figured it all out. Here's where you need to go. Yeah.
00:39:12 Rachel
Yeah. So like and so Cody was gone last weekend on a guy's trip to Baxter State Park. And then I'm going to Boston this week and then I get back.
00:39:20 Alyssa
Classic Cody guy strip, Baxter State Park.
00:39:22 Rachel
Totally, and it ended up being like a cluster.
00:39:24 Alyssa
What are you guys doing in Boston?
00:39:27 Rachel
We're just going to like eat good food and walk around the city, that's the plan.
00:39:33 Alyssa
Not parent.
00:39:36 Rachel
Yeah, just like be for a minute.
00:39:38 Alyssa
Have a conversation that lasts more than 30 seconds without being interrupted.
00:39:44 Rachel
Yeah, just like, yeah, so many things, right? But I get back and Cody leaves on Monday for Vegas for work.
00:39:55 Alyssa
Fun. Actually, I've never been to Vegas, but I don't think Vegas is for me.
00:40:00 Rachel
It's not my scene. I don't need to see it to know that.
00:40:05 Alyssa
It's definitely not your scene. You'd be so overstimulated. I just -
00:40:10 Rachel
Boston is a stretch, okay?
00:40:12 Alyssa
I am not a gambler. And so I'm just like, I don't know. I think it would be a lot going on. If I'm like going, I really want to like hang by a pool or be at a beach if I'm like going on a trip where I'm not with kids.
00:40:33 Rachel
1000%. And like they have to take a red eye back because that was like the only flight. So it's just going to be like, it's not going to be fun, right? Like he has to go to like this conference, one cool thing is that Jewel is singing at like the place that he's going to be, but it's like late at night and with the time change,
00:40:50 Alyssa
'My hands are small I know....."
00:40:51 Rachel
Literally. So he was like, legit. I'm like, Cody, this is an amazing opportunity. He only cares about Jewel because her dad is one of the guys on the, um, the last Alaska: The Last Frontier, the Kilcher family. So he's literally just like, I hope her dad's there. But, um, I, I have been playing him Jewel songs and he'll be like, Oh, that's her. Like, I know that song. I'm like, yeah, she's really famous and good. Like you should try to see her show.
00:41:25 Alyssa
So funny
00:41:25 Rachel
Um, so there was a tiny part of me that wanted to be like, can I go on this trip with him to see Jewel? But there's just too much going on. like with the kids at school, I'm already going to Boston, which I've already tried to like find a reason not to go to Boston, because that's how I am.
00:41:41 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:41:43 Rachel
But I'm going. So I've paid for my part of the lodging, so.
00:41:48 Alyssa
Every introvert out there can relate to you just being like, I said yes, I said now that it's coming, I'm looking for every excuse to actually just not go and do.
00:41:59 Rachel
Like, I'm literally trying to use my kids as an excuse. And some of my friends that are going have like infants that they're leaving. And so it's like, I can't really pull that one for this trip.
00:42:10 Alyssa
Also, they probably know you too well to let that fly.
00:42:14 Rachel
They yeah, they Yeah. So it'll be fun.
00:42:20 Alyssa
Totally great.
00:42:21 Rachel
Leaving Cody with sick kids. Yeah, it'll be fine. I won't have anxiety. So that is great.
00:42:29 Alyssa
Who are we chatting about today?
00:42:31 Rachel
Okay, hang on. I gotta look at my notes. We are chatting about Kate Hamilton. Imperfection in Parenthood.
00:42:47 Alyssa
Yeah, what were your takeaways?
00:42:49 Rachel
One thing that has evolved for me over the course of 10 years of being a parent is that shift of seeing guilt as a communicator or like a good signal to myself of like I need to shift things and having that be different than shame where like I'm like oh I'm a bad parent I don't really feel shame anymore in parenting but I do feel guilt at times. And I think that it's most helpful and most productive to use that as like a signal to myself of like, okay, something that's going on in relationship with one of my kids doesn't feel right. How can I shift that for the future? That kind of stuff.
00:43:48 Alyssa
It's interesting. You were just saying that and I was like, do I feel shame in parenthood? And I don't know. I definitely feel guilt. In fact, I'm about to have a therapy session solely focused on just like different parts of guilt and parenthood right now that I'm experiencing, really related to travel. Actually, funny. You bring up your Boston trip and like, first time you've gone away for fun. And these aren't for fun, they're all for work, but I could say no, you know, and like I am actively saying yes. I have a lot of fun being in person with different communities and diving into this. There's so many incredible rad humans that I've had the privilege of meeting who are doing this work, who have read Tiny Humans Big Emotions and found us and found this work or whatever. And I love getting to be in person with them. And it really fills my cup. And I'm doing a a lot of travel for work for February, March, and April. And I'm just feeling a lot of guilt around that.
00:44:55 Abel
Mom?
00:44:55 Alyssa
Hi, Abey.
00:44:56 Rachel
One second, please.
00:44:58 Abel
Can you, how much longer until I'll be -
00:45:07 Rachel
About 45 minutes.
00:45:10 Abel
Wait, that -
00:45:11 Rachel
That's less than an hour.
00:45:13 Abel
So you are gonna work in -
00:45:16 Rachel
Less than an hour, and then I'll be done.
00:45:17 Abel
45 minutes and then you gonna be done? So that an hour.
00:45:25 Rachel
It's less than an hour. I'll see you in a little bit.
00:45:30 Abel
Can you close ?
00:45:30 Rachel
Yeah I'll close it. Umm...
00:45:34 Alyssa
And I think part of it is like, because Sagey was born in COVID times, everything was virtual so much that Like, I didn't leave him for work until just before his second birthday. And Beans will be 14 months when I have my first, like, overnight away from her for work.
00:46:04 Rachel
Yeah.
00:46:06 Alyssa
And she'll be fine. Like, they'll be fine. As a full -time working parent, running a business of, right now we have 12 folks here, and I get to, I have so much privilege in that I get to spend a lot of time with them. And I have so much flexibility in this work. And with that also comes travel and weekends where I'm gone or things like that. And yeah, just feeling guilt around that. I think specifically with Beans, not as much with sagey, but with Beans.
00:46:47 Rachel
Yes. Something that I find helpful for myself is like a perspective shift where I'll ask myself.... buddy, when I agreed to let you stay home today, you knew that I needed to spend an hour on the computer with the door shut.
00:47:08 Abel
I was coming to say this is the last thing.
00:47:13 Rachel
Ok.
00:47:13 Abel
Can you go get Lava?
00:47:15 Rachel
I can't put on Lava for you, you'll have to play the Switch.
00:47:18 Abel
But mom, can you get it off of Mario Kart?
00:47:22 Rachel
I'm not going to be able to fix the TV until I'm done.
00:47:28 Abel
Ughhhhh. [door shuts]
00:47:28 Rachel
One thing that I find helpful is, (KMM, feel free to leave this in because I'm sure it's relatable,) is like, I asked myself, would Cody feel guilt about this? And like 9 .9 times out of 10, the answer is no.
00:47:49 Alyssa
Totally.
00:47:50 Rachel
That includes work trips, personal trips, any number of things. Forgetting things, like I feel guilty a lot if I forget things at school. Mm -hmm. He would never feel guilty about that. He would just be yeah, there's tons of emails. Of course, we missed something.
00:48:07 Alyssa
Yeah. Oh, that's such a good marker. Yes. Yes. I asked Zach relatively recently. I was like, when you are at work, do you feel guilty that the majority of their waking day, you're not seeing them? I'm like, this isn't a like you should feel. I'm just curious. He was I was like, no. And I was like, God, that's so cool to live like that. That sounds so relaxing.
00:48:40 Rachel
Yeah, I think like -
00:48:41 Alyssa
I think there's also guilt that I helped raise so many other people's kids, right? I was a nanny and an early childhood educator. And now when it's my own, I send them to their early childhood educators. And I have guilt around that of like, I dedicated a career to helping, to spending my days with other people's kids. and now it's my own. And I send them to other humans.
00:49:05 Abel
[yells]
00:49:08 Alyssa
And there's a part of me that feels guilty about that.
00:49:11 Rachel
I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing at Abel right now.
00:49:17 Alyssa
I know. Same.
00:49:17 Rachel
Yeah, that makes sense. I think that I would feel similarly. But again, like I don't like I think if you took a man who had worked in the fields, totally then decided like, I'm gonna, I'm going to start my own business so that I can get this information into the hands of as many people as possible to change the lives of as many caregivers and children as possible, which is what you've decided to do. I don't think that he would then be like, oh man, I feel bad.
00:49:49 Alyssa
No.
00:49:50 Rachel
I think he'd be like, yeah, this is the next logical step. This makes sense.
00:49:53 Alyssa
Also, the reality is I'm a better mom when I'm not with my kids 24/7. I am a better mom when I get to use my brain for something outside of parenting. And when I was teaching and nannying other people's kids before I had kids, I could be with those kids and then tap out and go use my brain for other things or go do other things. And when I'm with my own kids 24/7, I very quickly become a human that I don't want for them 24/7. And so the reality is, I think the way that I provide the highest quality care for them is for it to not be me all the time. And there's that part, but there's still the other guilt part that pops up still.
00:50:48 Rachel
Yeah. I think that oftentimes guilt exists even if you back up and look at the situation and you kind of remove the emotion from it, it doesn't necessarily, it's not necessarily logical for there to be guilt, but guilt still exists. Like that happens to me.
00:51:07 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:51:07 Rachel
When I feel guilty it's not always like, sometimes it is logical, like I lost my temper and I like yelled at you.
00:51:13 Alyssa
Sure.
00:51:14 Rachel
I'm, I want to feel guilty about that because I want my like internal system to flag that as like, yeah, no, that's not what you want to do.
00:51:21 Alyssa
It's not in alignment with my values.
00:51:23 Rachel
But then, correct. But then feeling guilty for work or for going on a trip without my kids, that to me, it's like, no, I don't want to feel guilty for that. Guilt doesn't feel useful in that situation.
00:51:40 Rachel
Yeah, totally. When I'm realizing in this moment, I think this part of me, there's a part of me that's pretty young. I grew up in this low -income family with five kids and my parents are really big into service, right? Other kids lived at our house a bunch. We did a lot of things through our church of like meals for people and yada yada. They often turned to support our local community and I felt like my needs weren't always met when they were working to meet other people's needs. And as I'm saying this, I'm realizing like, I think that's where this part's coming from, is this fear of my kids feeling like I was out trying to meet other people's needs and help other people raise children and not meeting my own kids' needs at home. I think that's where this is coming from. I don't even need therapy next week. Thanks for this IFS conversation, Rach. This is great.
00:52:57 Rachel
Oh, man.
00:53:01 Alyssa
Yeah. But there's also -
00:53:02 Rachel
I think that was my biggest takeaway from this, is like guilt and like how it manifests and where for me it's useful and then areas where I would like to work towards like not getting stuck in guilt, where like it's not gonna help me be a better mom if I don't go on this trip with my friends. Like that's not, in fact, it's the opposite. I'll probably be refreshed and way kinder when I get back. So I don't want to feel guilt where it's just not useful. You know?
00:53:34 Alyssa
Yeah, totally, totally. I think we also like umbrella guilt. And I am curious, like what else are the things underneath that? Cause I agree. I feel like I love guilt as an emotion because so often when it comes up, it's really helping me see when I'm outside of my values alignment. And I think I put things under that guilt emotion umbrella that aren't the same. And I wonder what those emotions really are, right? Like the guilt for me traveling for work, is it the same as like guilt when I have lost my cool and I've been rude to my kids and whatever? Like, no, those are different. And I think one of the exercises I personally could do is to get more granular and more specific so that I could identify like, what is the actual emotion or experience that I am struggling with? Because I think it's not just guilt, it's more specific in these categories. Does that make sense?
00:54:46 Alyssa
Yeah, especially the example of this is triggering something from your childhood. It's almost like you're experiencing fear of repeating what happened in your own childhood, more so than guilt.
00:55:06 Rachel
I'm thinking of Susan David's book on emotional agility, and so much of that work is about emotional granularity where we use these umbrella terms and we talk about surface emotions and when we can get granular and specific, it's really helpful for emotion processing. I think that's part of my work in this. That's one of the takeaways I'm actually realizing from this conversation with you is that I need to get more granular on what I'm experiencing where I'm getting stuck.
00:55:45 Rachel
Yeah.
00:55:47 Alyssa
I dig this. I love you. Thanks for being on this journey with me.
00:55:51 Rachel
Love you
00:56:19 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
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