Rethinking Intelligence: Moving Beyond Standardized Tests with Pepper Stetler
0:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village and today I got to hang out with Pepper Stetler. She is the author of A Measure of Intelligence: One Mother's Reckoning with the IQ Test. She writes extensively on issues facing people with intellectual disabilities and their caregivers. Her writing has appeared in the New York Times, the Atlantic, Slate, the Progressive. Pepper is a professor of art history at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio, where she lives with her husband and daughter, Louisa. I love this conversation because it is not just about folks with intellectual disabilities. We talked about school systems and how they are not set up systemically to support all of our children. And this is not at the fault of teachers. Teachers are incredible and slaying, and we need to shift the systems in which they work in order to better serve the classroom as a whole, and we got to dive into what that looks like and talk about some of those things. I shared my biggest dreams for what tests look like and how we're utilizing them. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Come on over to Instagram @seed.and.sew and share your thoughts with us. We'll have a post up about this episode, and I want to hear your takeaways and your thoughts and feedback and whether or not your kid might benefit from some of the things that we toss up in this episode. And if you're a teacher, come share your challenges and grievances and what you would love to see change as well. I want to hear from all of you. I want to continue this conversation. All right, folks, let's dive in.
00:01:56 Alyssa
Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:02:18 Alyssa
So you're in Ohio now, but you work for the University of Miami?
00:02:23 Pepper
Yeah. Okay. So Miami University is in Oxford, Ohio. It's not the one in Florida.
00:02:30 Alyssa
That makes way more sense.
00:02:32 Pepper
Yes. There is a long and important history of the way in which the university is named after the indigenous people that once lived here in Ohio.
00:02:43 Alyssa
Got it. Okay, that's tricky.
00:02:46 Pepper
As we like to say, the university is actually older than the state of Florida.
00:02:52 Alyssa
I love that. I love that. I grew up in Western New York, not far from Erie, Pennsylvania, so we would have soccer tournaments in Akron, Ohio, that kind of far east part of Ohio.
00:03:08 Pepper
Okay. Yeah. So it sounds like you're also very acclimated to the winters of Burlington.
00:03:14 Alyssa
You know, Pepper, one would think that would make sense, right? That would make sense since I grew up not far from Buffalo.
00:03:21 Pepper
Yeah.
00:03:22 Alyssa
I hate the cold.
00:03:24 Pepper
Oh no. You're in the wrong city. I remember when I moved there and I went to go get my oil changed around this time of year, like in the fall.
00:03:36 Alyssa
Can't get into it.
00:03:38 Pepper
The person was like, so do you want to put the chains on your tires now or are you waiting? And I was like, what? Tire chains? What are you talking about? That is real up there.
00:03:51 Alyssa
It is real. Yeah. And it's even like hard to get in for like routine car maintenance stuff because everyone has snow tire appointments and so like finding time. It's so funny. It's so real. So you did a year here, you said?
00:04:07 Pepper
I did. Yeah. I had a wonderful job teaching at the University of Vermont, but my husband was teaching here at Miami University. And as much as I loved being in Burlington, I I just could not do this like separate commute thing for any longer, it stunk. So we got really lucky and we're both professors here at Miami University now, which is really fortunate.
00:04:36 Alyssa
What does he teach?
00:04:37 Pepper
He teaches art history too.
00:04:39 Alyssa
Okay, oh wow, a couple of art history nerds. I love it.
00:04:42 Pepper
Seriously, yeah.
00:04:45 Alyssa
Is your daughter into art history?
00:04:47 Pepper
She is, I mean, because she has two art history parents.
00:04:50 Alyssa
By way of exposure.
00:04:52 Pepper
Yeah. I mean, but it's one of the perks of being art history researchers is we get to travel a lot. And my husband teaches the Italian Renaissance. And so we've spent a lot of summers in Italy. And she is-
00:05:05 Alyssa
Not a bad gig. Not a bad gig.
00:05:06 Pepper
I know. And she has just learned a ton. And those opportunities have just been amazing for her and really important. And I love how we get to benefit from living in a small town, but we also get to show her other places during the summer. I think that's really important for her.
00:05:26 Alyssa
That's so rad. How old is she?
00:05:28 Pepper
She's 12 now. She is in seventh grade, so she is in the thick of middle school business.
00:05:37 Alyssa
Yeah, you're all in the thick of middle school business. Oh, how's that going?
00:05:44 Pepper
Well you know, it's alright. It definitely has its struggles, yeah, I mean it's middle school, who, I have never heard of anyone being like, middle school was awesome, I had the best time.
00:06:03 Alyssa
That was my peak I think, I loved middle school, I'm like that rare person, yeah. I know. I know. It's so weird. I didn't love high school for reasons that like make total sense now, but I loved middle school. It was my jam. My best friend Kelly and I were like matching all the time. We had our like slicked back, gelled hair so there were no flyaways with our buns and just like owning it, rocking it, doing the thing. Yeah.
00:06:33 Pepper
Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, good for you.
00:06:36 Alyssa
You know what? Thanks, Pepper. I actually, you know, so much of my work has been in the early ed space and we work in education K -12, though, and as we've just grown in the early ed space, just more and more requests for us to do work in K -5, kindergarten to fifth grade, of just like, hi, turns out we still need this here, etc. And so I've been moving into, I do a lot of like consulting work with elementary programs and things like that. And now have started to same thing. These elementary principals are chatting with middle school principals and the middle school principals are like, wait, can you come over to our building too? We also need this.
00:07:17 Pepper
It is true.
00:07:18 Alyssa
It continues.
00:07:19 Pepper
Yeah, it's true. I mean, and I have noticed that as a parent of a kid with a disability, I feel like the world of advice and counseling and help is very concentrated in the early years. And then I don't know why this is, like as if middle school is going to be easy, right? Like if you do it, then you're good for the rest of the time or something, but that's not, that is not at all. And I wish there was more about like how to navigate adolescence for a kid with an intellectual disability.
00:07:58 Alyssa
Yeah, for sure. Well, and I think there's age bias there, often of like, oh, they're old enough to know better now, or whatever, even just for all humans. I think there's ages where we expect kids to just have certain skills, or knowledge, or understanding, or capabilities. And I think it's just from a place of bias.
00:08:22 Pepper
Yeah, right. and like a bias of like assuming independence, right? Like the goal is they should be able to do it right now, right? They're on their own. They can do it. But like whoever in their life is really independent in that way, right?
00:08:38 Alyssa
And why is that the goal?
00:08:40 Pepper
Why is that the goal? To not have to bother anybody, to not be connected and dependent on anyone, right? Like why?
00:08:48 Alyssa
And it's like now we look around, right? And I'm in my mid -30s and I'm surrounded by a bunch of other moms and parents who struggle to ask for help and lean on each other. And there's this mentality of like, we're supposed to be able to do all this by ourselves. And it's like, duh, because the goal was independence, right? And so now we get here and we're like, actually this is so hard and can we all just help each other and I don't want to do it alone.
00:09:14 Pepper
Exactly.
00:09:17 Alyssa
Yeah, what are we teaching kids? And, and I think there's a difference, uh, at all ages of, if say, I'm trying to help my child learn how to get dressed on their own and we get to a point where they know how to get dressed on their own and they can put their socks and shoes on and they can get out the door. I don't want the expectation to be that they always have to do that by themselves. Like there are going to be times or seasons or times of day where I'm going to step in And then I'm going to tie your shoes for you because you've had a long day and that's a hard task and gosh, there are 7 million times in a year where I'm like, oh my God, I've had a long day and I wish my husband could like brush my teeth for me and put me to bed and like, oh, that would be so nice. And I don't think that we have to get to a space where it's, you are always utilizing and accessing all the skills you have, even if we know you have them.
00:10:20 Pepper
Yeah, exactly. And sending parents into a tailspin about their child's developmental regression if you have to tie their shoes and how overdetermined all of these little things can become.
00:10:37 Alyssa
Yeah, it's so real. I remember one time in September, I was teaching preschool at time, which is always like a nuts time of year, right? Getting to know like all my new humans and build new attachments and it's exhausting. And my husband was working full time and doing his master's full time. And so he was quite busy. And so I'd come home from work in September and he had made dinner and we're eating dinner and he was like, hey, Lyss, after dinner, could you do the dishes? I have work I've got to go do some homework to do. And I just started sobbing. And like, of course I can do the dishes, right? Like, of course, I was so at capacity that what I needed was to like lay in bed and watch Grey's Anatomy and eat Milk Duds and like not do anything else. And I think of like our kids in this, of like when Sage, my little guy comes home from school and he's spent, he's a sensory sensitive human and so he, school's exhausting for his nervous system. He works really hard for regulation throughout the day. And so he comes home and the smallest task is me doing the dishes, right? Like, he's like, I can't right now, mom. I can't. You know? Yeah. So real. Yeah. So real.
00:11:55 Pepper
So I have to ask, wait, did you do the dishes?
00:11:59 Alyssa
No.
00:11:59 Pepper
Or did you, you just went to bed?
00:12:01 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. Zach was like, never mind. I'll do the dishes. He was like, why don't you climb in bed? He is an incredible caretaker. And
00:12:12 Pepper
That's wonderful.
00:12:14 Alyssa
He's really good at advocating for his needs and also making space for other people's needs. It's so interesting. He's an only child and I'm one of five.
00:12:26 Pepper
Okay.
00:12:27 Alyssa
And I grew up in a low income community in Western New York and having needs wasn't how you showed love. You know, like it was, how do you be as easy as possible because there isn't extra money, there isn't extra resources or time or whatever to go around and for him as an only child in a lower middle class family, there's plenty of adult attention and resources in that to go around where he could have needs and he didn't feel like a burden.
00:12:54 Pepper
Oh, wow. Okay.
00:12:55 Alyssa
You know?
00:12:56 Pepper
Yeah. Yeah. Amazing.
00:12:58 Alyssa
I'm still working on that one. So much to unpack. Pepper, I am really excited about your book, A Measure of Intelligence, One Mother's Reckoning with the IQ Test. Can you share a bit about what led you to this?
00:13:16 Pepper
Yeah, sure. So thank you, Alyssa. Thanks. I'm so excited to talk with you about it. I was led to this really by the circumstances that I share right at the beginning of the book. You know, I never really expected in my like professional life to be writing a book about IQ tests. I'm an art historian by training, and thought I would just write about art, but then became increasingly interested in the kinds of tests that my daughter Louisa, who has Down syndrome was being asked to take at school and what people in the school environment thought they were learning about Louisa when she was taking these tests. So I start off at the beginning of the book with her first IEP meeting before she started kindergarten. And an IEP is an individualized education program, which is a kind of document that kids with certain disabilities are put on to give them the care and the support that they need in the classroom, in an inclusive in -classroom environment. So we were at this meeting to flesh out the details of this document. Part of this IEP document is a kind of bureaucratic qualification for her to be eligible to have an IEP. And it did seem a bit redundant to me. Her having Down syndrome seemed to kind of obviously qualify her for getting a bit more help at school, but she needed to take an IQ test in order to qualify her for having an intellectual disability officially, and then being able to be on this IEP document. So at this meeting, I was kind of presented with the results of that IQ test, and it just struck me as strange. An IQ test, to me, wasn't something I'd ever thought about all that much before, but any association I did have with it was from weird pseudoscience of the early 20th century, and I was just like, oh, we're still doing this. We're still giving kids IQ tests. Okay. And I had no idea how, at that time how they're such a fundamental part of training as a psychologist. Psychologists, I eventually found out take them pretty seriously in a lot of ways, in ways that at that time I didn't really take them seriously at all, except when I realized that there was a part of me that was taking this seriously because the school psychologist said to us in this meeting, uh, you know, uh, your daughter's IQ is low because she has, she has Down syndrome. Um, but it's actually high for a kid with Down syndrome. And there was a tiny part of me I had to eventually admit that was just kind of like, yes. Like I had, um, I had somehow, I don't know, like that made me feel good in some way.
00:16:26 Alyssa
Yeah. I'm succeeding.
00:16:28 Pepper
Exactly. Like I had, I had done something right as a parent. I felt like a good parent, different because of that. And I had to kind of work through that. It felt really icky to me that I had that sort of response. But I started to realize that these IQ tests, even though the school psychologist said, you know, they don't matter that much. No one's going to see them outside of this meeting. It doesn't matter. They did kind of seem to matter to me in ways that are maybe a little more latent and implicit, but they do matter. And they don't matter in ways in the sense that I don't think my daughter is going around wearing a t -shirt with her IQ on it and all of her teachers know this and are making very direct decisions about her education because of her IQ score. It's not that explicit. But the power of the IQ test is still there and affects my daughter's life in some pretty profound ways, I've come to discover.
00:17:33 Alyssa
So I want to learn about the ways that it does affect her life. I also, just like one thing that stood out to me is, you know, I'm a parent of two kids and this idea of what it means to be a good parent is so real. There isn't like at the end of the day a checklist where we're like, okay, success, right? And so those measures and they're not like, hey, mom, thanks for having my best interest at heart. You slayed it today, right? Like there isn't that feedback and what does it mean to be successful in this role? And so I think that we can grasp at straws and we're like, what does it mean? And maybe for some folks, it's like, OK, they're on the growth chart at this certain place or they're eating vegetables or they're sleeping through the night or these like markers that we place on it. And we're like, OK, I'm succeeding. And I feel like especially as a first time parent, I was like, OK, it felt really good when Sagey started sleeping through the night. And I was like, great, I'm doing well. Like, well, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Yada, yada. And then like Mila comes around and girl is a whole different human and marches to the beat of her own drum and has never in her life slept through the night still. And like, just very different human. And I'm at a place now in parenthood where I'm like, oh yeah, none of that really matters to me actually. But it's like, we have to define what does it mean to be successful in my role and to be a good parent? And I think what comes up for me a lot is like intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation here of like, what if it wasn't dependent on the results of this human, right? What if like, say one of my markers is like, my kids graduate and they go to college. Well, what if my kids graduate and they don't go to college, am I still a good parent? Like, what if it has nothing to do with them? Can I still be proud of me as a parent and feel like I'm doing a good job. Yeah. And if so, what does that look like?
00:19:51 Pepper
Right, right. I mean, in that, that takes, I think for parents to get there takes a lot of strength and confidence,
00:20:02 Alyssa
Like changing every hour. Am I there yet? Am I some sometimes in there, sometimes I'm not. And then my kid has a meltdown in the restaurant and I'm like, oh, I'm not there. Nope. I'm not there.
00:20:13 Pepper
Right. I mean, first, I think step one of that would to just be able to admit that our child's behavior and markers of success aren't really about the child, right? Our reaction to those are mostly about ourselves, and how we want to be seen, and where we think we belong. Just unpacking that alone is is step one. And then, you know, our world is not wired for intrinsic confidence in the kinds of results and outcomes we see, right. And this is one reason and why test scores are so convenient and powerful markers of success, right? Like they're so convenient and they're so, it seems like universally validated and affirmed that that just becomes such an easy way of judging human value and human worth that we never really stop and think about the problems with that, like problems on a personal level and then I think problems on a wider kind of social justice level for who gets left out when we're validating people by quantitative numbers that are informed by certain values and certain priorities in our society, right? Like, there's a lot of work to be done there.
00:21:53 Alyssa
And what is it then in form? So that's what I'm curious to learn more about from you now is how has it affected her and her life and trajectory, this IQ test?
00:22:06 Pepper
So Louisa is, she's 12 and she's in seventh grade now. And I have, first of all, I have worked through and I'm still trying to work through the fact that the IQ test really says nothing about her abilities and her contribution to the world in which she lives. However, it does say a lot about her inability to take a test well. She's bad at tests, and the tests don't have anything to do, I've realized, with what she's learned in class. So that is something that first became visible to me when she took IQ tests. I started to kind of question these tests that some psychologists say are there to help her, to allow psychologists to learn information about her and the way that she learns. Maybe that's true, but there's also a lot of ways in which IQ tests have created a logic about where she belongs in our world and what kind of opportunities will be available to her. So, for example, I have become more and more interested in this idea that everyone should have an opportunity to go to college if they want. My daughter, Louisa, should have an opportunity to go to college, but we use standardized test that developed from the IQ test in the 1920s to decide where people go to college. And in terms of the SAT and the ACT, that's a huge hurdle for her in the sense that not being able to go to college limits her opportunities in so many ways. It limits her employment opportunities, limits her interaction with her peers in a community in that way. So that's one way in which I've become more and more aware of how the way that we value testing limits opportunities for someone like my daughter. But then it's also more complicated than that because there's also this bind that I've realized that as I mentioned at the beginning, her ability to have an IEP and qualify for the services that she needs depends on her having an IQ test. And having an IQ that is, among other factors that are involved in this diagnosis, sort of below a particular threshold. So she has to, you know, she has to take this test in order to be part of an inclusive environment, even though later the same kind of test is going to allow her to access things like Medicaid, if she needs it, or social security benefits. But it also really kind of stigmatizes her, right? Like, I don't have to walk around with other people knowing my IQ. I don't even know my IQ, but it's something that's attached to her in ways that I think makes it easier to discriminate against her.
00:25:22 Alyssa
Can I dream with you for a second?
00:25:25 Pepper
Please, let's go.
00:25:28 Alyssa
I agree from a test taking standpoint. Well, I just think the way that even outside of tests, a lot of schooling is done is for one type of learner. And then we're looking at like, oh, we're seeing behavior issues from this kid. Like what changes do we have to make in their seating options or their schedule for the day or whatever so that they can learn? And I think that we're doing it backwards. And my dream is that as kids are coming into school, whether it's in early childhood or are coming in through kindergarten, that we have play -based screeners that are truly play -based screeners where we can understand what will be most helpful for your nervous system to thrive in this environment or for you to learn in this space. And then when they come in, it's like, yeah, there's all different, it's not like everybody sits in this chair and then this kid sits in this other one because the reality is a lot of the kids in the classroom, whether they have an IEP or an IFSP when they're younger, would benefit from seating choice or accommodations throughout the day that are going to support their nervous system, their regulation, their ability to access cognitive function. And that I think we do it backwards by saying you have to qualify for those things. What would it look like to just screen everybody, not from a place of like good, bad hierarchy, but from a place of of what helps your brain and body function and learn. And, you know, I shared a little bit that I have two vastly different humans. My three and a half year old is in a preschool room right now that has a max of eight kids. And I'm so grateful that I was so steeped in the system and understand his nervous system and have the privilege of that to have been able to find a program where he can have that. Because right now a preschool classroom typically is 16 to 18 kids and that's too much for his nervous system. He would spend all day in a dysregulated state, unable to learn and engage. And my daughter, Mila, would walk into a room of 18 kids and be like, heck yes, let's go. Her nervous system thrives on like, oh my gosh, I have 17 people to connect with, let's go. She is not sensory sensitive. She filters stimulation in a different way. She integrates and processes it differently. So their needs are different. And I don't know that Sagey will qualify for services or supports or accommodations in school. And for me, that's terrifying, because he is gonna spend so much of his day just trying to be in a regulated state that I feel nervous about his ability to actually learn in a school setting.
00:28:17 Pepper
Yeah, I mean, this is the kind of future that I want too, Alyssa, and I don't think that assessments and IQ tests are probably going to be going away any time soon, but there is a possibility to change what we do with that information, right? Like for most of the history of IQ tests, we have used that information to segregate people depending on their ability. But what if we rather saw this as learning about a particular identity and then valuing how everyone can learn together, even though they're different types of learners.
00:29:02 Alyssa
I feel this so deeply in my soul.
00:29:05 Pepper
Me too. I have seen this in so many cases with Louisa and her best teachers. Teachers that understand that a classroom is so much more than just making sure they pass that state exam at the end of the year, right? Like I just had a parent conference with her teachers last night and her amazing science teacher just told me all about how when one of Louisa's classmates is absent, Louisa takes charge in making sure that kid has everything that they need to be caught up the next day. She is a community participant.
00:29:50 Alyssa
Yeah, She's a caretaker.
00:29:51 Pepper
Yeah. She is a caretaker in that class.
00:29:55 Alyssa
I love that.
00:29:55 Pepper
And there's nothing that she values more than helping other people. And that's something that's also valued by the teacher. That means everything to me. Like that is everything that I care about in her classroom experience. And like there are ways, I think, in which teachers step in and create the kind of environment that we're talking about to the best of their ability, but it is not bureaucratically ordained by the way in which our education system is set up today.
00:30:33 Alyssa
Also, just as a little side note, Is there any greater feeling in the world than when somebody like really sees your child and just like loves them for who they are? I had a teacher recently in Sage's school who just like connected with me bypassing me, not even his teacher, but was like walking by and she was like, oh my gosh, I got into this conversation with Sage all about his like workbench and his tools and whatever. And she just like spent time getting to know him. and she was like, he is so creative and like really thinks problems through, like he has a multi -step process in his head and whatever. And she like saw him, right? And I was like, that is how his brain works. And those are things that like fire him up. And it just is so frigging cup filling when someone else sees your child and values and loves them.
00:31:23 Pepper
It is almost too much for me. I love connecting about this in particular just because like from my perspective, I want to do too much in the sense that I want to tell this science teacher like, do you know how would it have been 60 years ago for my daughter? And I think that's just like, that's too much for him. It goes to show you that whatever your kids' abilities are, there's ways in which this kind of regime of intelligence affects everybody. Like this is, I did not write this book just for people that have connections to kids with intellectual disabilities. Like this is for everybody. And the way that we think about intelligence affects all of us. And you know, there's a way in which I see this, the outcome of this a lot in my college students at Miami here. What they think learning is, their value of grades is heartbreaking to me sometimes. And that's kind of what I mean is that it isn't the story I'm telling isn't just about my daughter who has Down syndrome, but it's about this society that sees her in particular ways thanks to the history and the power of IQ tests.
00:32:52 Alyssa
Yeah, it's so interesting too because even just all that goes into taking a test and all of the privilege and the systems that affect one's ability or how they're going to show up. I'm thinking of like SATs and a friend of mine had just lost a parent and was going through so much and then had to show up and take the SATs the same day that I had to go and show up and take the SATs with none of that happening, right? And in the end, all it is is a score, and it determines where can we get into college. Or for my little sensory -sensitive guy, where him accessing his whole brain in a space where maybe somebody's tapping or clicking their pen, or there's visual stimulation happening, that's gonna be hard for him. And it won't be the same for Mila, you know? And just that, from an equity standpoint point of what is your body need to thrive is what I'm looking at in classrooms. What is this person need to thrive? And is it a redesign of this space? Is it smaller classes? Is it stepping out to take a test? And I don't think you should have to qualify for services for us to ask that question. I think it's a question we should be asking of every child so that they learn about themselves. What do I need to thrive?
00:34:19 Pepper
Yeah, yeah, right. And I also want to highlight in the case that you just dreamed about, which is amazing, you know, how, how kids would learn about other people, right? And learn to value others. And like, that's, that's really the gem of inclusive classrooms here is that my daughter has been in a classroom with her peers since kindergarten and now in the tender adolescence, even through all of these sort of social changes that happened in middle school, they're still including her, right? Like they have learned that she belongs and she's valued in this kind of space, right? And knowing that you don't have to just be one way in order to be in a classroom and be valued in a school.
00:35:22 Alyssa
A hundred percent. And a phrase that we use a lot in my household, I'm actually, I have a manuscript due tomorrow for my second book is not ready to be submitted tomorrow, but it's for the kindergarten to fifth grade range. And I built it in there too, because I think it's something we are more apt to use for younger kids and then forget about it as kids get older, but we in my household a lot say, what are we still learning or what are they still learning or what are you still learning? And I will, when I'm repairing with Sage after, you know, we were coming in from outside and I was feeling frustrated or overwhelmed and I'm not kind or I lose my cool in the process of repair, I'll say, oh yeah, I'm still learning what it feels like in my body when I feel overwhelmed. And I'm practicing that so that I can calm my body and be kind to you. And so acknowledging like, I'm still learning and we'll talk about what he's still learning. You're still learning what it feels like when you're getting hungry so that you can pause and eat so that your body can feel good. And then it comes up to when somebody in his class is pushing or hitting or what are they still learning? They're learning how to say, can I be next or can I have a turn? And then as we move into that K -5 space, And I just was consulting with a program where there's a kid who's like throwing chairs and big, big behavior. And there's so much value in turning to the class and saying like, oh man, they're still learning what it feels like when they're frustrated and what to do with that frustration. We're going to help them figure that out. What are the things that you do when you feel frustrated? And then that same child who helps answer that question about somebody else down the road, it's, oh, now you're feeling frustrated that you can't figure this out. You've been working so hard on this math problem and it's not working. And like being able to pull that in as a theme that we're all still learning things. And there are challenges for all of us and we get to be in them together and not shamed for those differences and challenges.
00:37:35 Pepper
Exactly, right? Like that's that is the alternative is like the labeling as a troublemaker, right? Or always treating it as as punitive.
00:37:45 Alyssa
Yeah. Or other or less than, right?
00:37:49 Pepper
Exactly.
00:37:50 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. Even like reading groups, if there's like this group is on on H and this group is on B and yeah, they're still learning this and that it's not that you're in group H because you're better and you're smarter. Your brain learned that and you're working on these other things and their brain's learning this and just normalizing that.
00:38:13 Pepper
Totally. At the same time, I do not know how teachers do it. Like, it is phenomenal to me that the ability to deal with so many different humans and learners and needs.
00:38:28 Alyssa
Without systems that are supporting them in doing so, and I think that's my, in the book that I'm writing now, we end with our suggestions for school systems, and it's not about what are my suggestions for individual teachers, because we need school systems to adopt change that can support these individual teachers. If you are given a room full of these chairs and this schedule of academics you have to get to, then yeah, there isn't space for you to say, oh, actually this kid who doesn't have an IEP would benefit from a different seating option, or how do I know if they would, or things like that.
00:39:08 Pepper
I mean, something that I've started to learn more about and thinking about a lot lately is the way in which teachers are trained to be teachers. I've learned there's actually having an integrated licensure or a dual licensure for what is called special education and, I guess, normal education is actually rare. We don't teach teachers to teach all learners a lot. Even though a law that has prioritized having students on IEPs in the least restrictive environment has been around for about 50 years now, we still don't teach teachers to teach that way. I feel like I'm learning more about like, oh, it starts there. We have teachers that start that have never thought about what it might be like to have a kid on an IEP or with severe needs in their classroom, right? That's another starting point of all of this.
00:40:17 Alyssa
100%. I love that point. And I think in addition to that, looking at teaching, I think so much of what we teach teachers in my, I have a master's in early child education, was a licensed teacher up to second grade. And there was so much around classroom management in terms of behaviors, and nothing beyond that. And there wasn't a like, integration of emotional development into all of my subjects that I don't put MTSS on my calendar. It's like, Oh, well, from 12 to 1230 today, we get to work on emotions. It's like, you know, it's gonna come up when they're frustrated because they can't figure this thing out, or they have to go over to a morning meeting and their body won't sit still. And now we're seeing behaviors or dysregulation. And that idea that my job is to teach academics and nothing else is, is so common. And I was just interviewing some teachers recently for the book. And over and over, that was a common theme was that, like, well, I want to get back to being able to teach. And what they mean is to teach academics.
00:41:32 Pepper
Yes, those those state standards, right?
00:41:35 Alyssa
Yes. And that these behaviors are getting in the way of me teaching. And I'm like, you can you can teach you can teach these kids about their bodies and how they work and what it looks like to be in a community environment and work through hard things together and that will allow you to access more of the academic learning. But I think there is this teacher prep that's really focused on teaching them to perform.
00:42:02 Pepper
Yeah. Yeah, right. I mean, and I don't think I don't sense that that goes away when kids get older, right? Like,
00:42:10 Alyssa
No, I think it's worse,
00:42:12 Pepper
Right? Like I've had teachers say, like, seventh graders are crazy. You know, like their hormones are going bananas and like it is, the behavior has most likely changed a bit, but it's like the core need and the core problems are still there.
00:42:34 Alyssa
Yeah, exactly. And I think we need, yes, systems change in order to see lasting change.
00:42:41 Pepper
Yeah.
00:42:42 Alyssa
Well, I'm so stoked to have your book and to get to dive into this jazz Pepper. Is there anything that you want to share that we haven't covered?
00:42:57 Pepper
You know, gosh, there's so much. Do you have like three more hours? There's, you know, there's a lot in the book in which I'm trying to lay out the history of all of this that we've been talking about. And I think I just want listeners to know how powerful I see that history being in the sense that it has a history and our present conditions that we're talking about are created through human choice, right? Like this is not a natural way of doing things, which is a powerful concept to notice because it means that we could actually choose to do something differently, right? Like we could make choices to do this education thing better.
00:43:51 Alyssa
Yeah, it's not set in stone.
00:43:53 Pepper
Yeah, and I guess I also want to say how awesome my daughter is. She's just terrific. And I was, I mean, moved because I wanted everyone in the world to see how amazing she is and how much she has to contribute to this world. And I want that to be recognized and noticed. Yeah, that's what I wanted to add, I think.
00:44:22 Alyssa
I think of my friend, Heather, who has written a few books, but Everyone Belongs is one of my favorites. She's the founder of the Lucky Few. Yeah, and she always says, Because you are worthy and valued and loved just by having a beating heart and air in your lungs and that we shouldn't have to prove anything to be worthy and valued. It shouldn't be about our abilities and what we can provide and ways that we can show up in the world. That there's nothing to prove. And I so deeply appreciate that message. And it's a good, I think, ableist reminder.
00:45:08 Pepper
Absolutely. It's also more profound than one might think too. Like if we think actually how hard it is to keep this with us in our everyday actions and choices in our world. So yay, Heather.
00:45:24 Alyssa
What's Louisa into right now?
00:45:25 Pepper
So, she still is taking ballet, and she has moved to taking ballet twice a week now, and she is really focused in a way that I don't think I've ever seen her on the goal of getting to do pointe.
00:45:44 Alyssa
Oh, Ouch.
00:45:44 Pepper
So we have found out. Yeah, I know. So we found it.
00:45:48 Alyssa
What are ya thinking? So painful
00:45:49 Pepper
Yeah, I mean, this, we have this amazing ballet teacher that really sees Louisa's enthusiasm and wants to, to nurture that. So it's like, we don't have any expectations about how this might go. But, Louisa really wants to be part of this, like, she wants to be included in having this experience and what that's like. So she is she's working hard at getting strong enough to be able to put on pointe shoes.
00:46:20 Alyssa
Get it, Louisa. That's awesome.
00:46:22 Pepper
We will see how that goes.
00:46:24 Alyssa
Yeah. Cheering for you. Thank you, Pepper, for writing this book, for spreading this message, for doing this work. You're the bomb.
00:46:32 Pepper
Thank you. It's really my pleasure to be on here. Thanks so much for having me.
00:46:37 Alyssa
Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.
00:46:41
[Music]
00:46:48 Alyssa
Hello, hello.
00:46:50 Rachel
Hi.
00:46:50 Alyssa
How are you?
00:46:52 Rachel
I'm hanging in there.
00:46:55 Alyssa
Yeah. Really gets us, man. Really good. You have a number of birthdays in your immediate family, but also just like full extended family that all live right near you, plus the holiday season is insane.
00:47:11 Rachel
I know. Like my birthday's tomorrow. And Nora was like, Mom, what are we doing? And I'm like, hopefully nothing. That's what I'm hoping for.
00:47:18 Alyssa
Happy birthday to you. Oh, man. Yeah. Speaking of birthdays, Mila turned one.
00:47:27 Rachel
Nuts.
00:47:28 Alyssa
Nuts. And also, I'm like, how has it only been a year? Because this was actually Maddie Blask. My cousin Maddie came and stayed with us the weekend before her birthday. and she left and she texted and was just like, it's always so nice to see you guys and the kids, but this one felt extra magical and special and lovely. And I was like, oh yeah, because finally we're afloat. I was like, every other time you've seen us over the last year, it's been the hardest year for our marriage. It's been the hardest year for me personally. It's been the hardest parenting year of just like the transition from zero to one was way easier for us than the transition from one to two. And like me, mental health -wise, having postpartum depression, and I'm the one who steers the ship in the family, right? Like I set the tone, I organize all the things, and a lot of it my own doing, because I like to have control. And I was not my normal self for so much of this year, where I didn't wanna be around the people that I loved, didn't feel joy, wasn't like, like I'm the one who's like, oh yeah, let's play a game. Let's whatever, like I bring the joy and shift the energy. And I couldn't do that. And I finally am like, oh, I'm feeling like so much more like myself again.
00:49:12 Rachel
Yeah a year is a long time to not feel like yourself.
00:49:18 Alyssa
Yeah so long so long and like for our like marriage too and like having two kids who are a sensory mismatch which I know you can speak to it has meant more divide and conquer than we want where like our comfort zone is us all just like hanging out. And when Sagey was little, we would both do bedtime and bath time together with him. Like we would do it as like a family unit and really enjoy all being together. And Sagey's nervous system has a really hard time with Beans, in terms of like how she shows up in the world. She wants to touch you and be close to you and talk to you. And he's like, can everybody stop talking and move away? And so it's just meant more divide and conquer, which has been hard for us.
00:50:18 Rachel
Yeah, I feel like it's lonely in a way. When we have had seasons where we've had to divide and conquer, which was much of Abel's infancy for similar reasons, and even into toddlerhood for him, it just felt lonely. And I also felt like I miss spending time with Nora, because I always was the one who was on Abel, because he would only accept me. And so then I found myself feeling kind of like I was failing Nora. Even still, sometimes that will happen, because Abel will only want me for bedtime, and Nora will have a one -off where she's super dysregulated at bedtime and really wants me, and it becomes this whole thing. And frankly, it is unfair to her. And the alternative is, if I go lay with Abel, there's only one kid crying. If I then go and be with Nora while she's crying, then Abel's also crying, right? So it's like...
00:51:08 Alyssa
Totally. It's easier in the moment.
00:51:09 Rachel
Yeah, but it's unfair to her.
00:51:11 Alyssa
Totally.
00:51:12 Rachel
And I also am the one that sets the tone, which for me adds another layer of loneliness because I'm like, Cody's great. I mean, he has a wonderful dad, but at the end of the day, if either one of the kids are totally losing their you -know -what, it's me that they want.
00:51:28 Alyssa
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
00:51:30 Rachel
It's like I'm one person.
00:51:31 Alyssa
Yeah, and Beans is obsessed with me and very much mama heavy. Sagey was at this age, too. I mean, I nurse, and so I think that's a huge part of it. And I am their emotional safe space. And yeah, my husband rocks and still am the emotional safe space. And so when it comes to that, I on Friday, Nana hung out with Beaners, and I took Sagey on a little date. We went to the Christmas store and went shopping for my dad for Christmas and it's one of Sage's favorite stores. And then we went out to lunch and then we came home and we were sitting at lunch and he it was just, I chose like a spot that would be very quiet and chill and we were sitting and he said, mom, I'm so grateful for this time where it's just me and you. And I like melted and also like broke. Where I was like, yeah, I miss this too. Yeah, and just like, I do, I do. Whenever we divide and conquer, yeah, she wants me and she's gonna scream for me. And he and Zach also play very similarly. Like they, the way that they move through the world is very similar. And so like Sage is right now very into Legos and which I know is supposed to be pronounced Lego and I just can't.
00:52:59 Rachel
No.
00:52:59 Alyssa
It's one of those that I'm.
00:53:01 Rachel
It's plural.
00:53:01 Alyssa
I'm not spending my time and energy. Yeah. And Zach also really likes Lego. So they'll like go build. Whereas when Sage is like, mom, you want to come play Legos with me? And I'm like, yeah, totally bud. And then I'm there for like four seconds. I'm like, God, I'm just building a tower and just over and over. Like this isn't fun for me. And then I start looking around his room, which is where the Lego table is. And I'm like, I should put that laundry away and like grab these things and just, and so realistically he probably has more fun one -on -one with Zach who actually plays with him.
00:53:39 Rachel
Yeah, similar dynamic here. Cody and Noni, first of all, are really similar in a lot of ways. And also he's really good. I'm like, I just wish I could be better. He's really good at like ignoring what's going on around and just being present and playing and you know there's this there's two battling parts it's like well yeah because he just doesn't see the mess no he sees it he chooses to prioritize the kids and like that is something that's really hard for me to do
00:54:11 Alyssa
Same.
00:54:12 Rachel
Um so yeah it's more fun for Nora to be with Cody too.
00:54:18 Alyssa
Totally it is so hard for me to ignore the things around. Zach is very good at connecting with people based off of their interests and like genuinely being curious about it. I remember when Maddie lived with us, my cousin Maddie who recently visited, she lived with us pre -kids a couple times and she was with us when COVID started and she got into like watching musical theater videos on YouTube at one point for a stretch during COVID. And Zach would ask her so many questions and be so curious and remember the details. And then they would have, they have this their own relationship and connection and bond outside of me. And he knows so many things about her and remembers them. And then we'll see something and text her. It's like, oh, yada, yada. And I'm like, what's that about? And he's like, remember when she was into that musical theater and I'm like okay I never took the time to ask questions because I wasn't interested in it and like that's real he's so good at that
00:55:27 Rachel
Yeah he is
00:55:28 Alyssa
And so then it comes up with the kids too we're like when Sagey's into something even if it's something Zach isn't into he he isn't even just like pretending he really wants to connect with that human and learn more about what it is they like about it and he does this for me in relationship too we're like I get fired up about something we're working on at Seed to try and support teachers or kids or whatever. And I'm like talking about it. He asks like lovely, thoughtful, engaging questions. And then when he gets fired up about something that I don't care about, I'm like, I have to work so hard to just even be there. I'm not good at it.
00:56:10 Rachel
He excels at it.
00:56:12 Alyssa
It feels selfish. He's so good. And it feels selfish on my end where I'm like, eh, not interested.
00:56:20 Rachel
Yeah, I mean, I think just call it an area of growth and do the best you can with it. I don't think I'm trying to grow. Sorry, Zach.
00:56:30 Alyssa
Love you, love you, Zach. But he's so good at that with the kids where then he like gets into like in -depth play with Sagey because he has tapped into what Sagey's interested in.
00:56:42 Rachel
Yep.
00:56:42 Alyssa
Yeah. And then force yourself, Alyssa, to play for three minutes.
00:56:48 Rachel
It's like when Abel wants me to take the metal die cast cars and try to crash them into each other. He has one and I have the other, and the whole goal is to crash them. And I can only do that five or six times before I'm like, I would rather be getting a bikini wax right now. I don't want to try to smash cars together. I really don't.
00:57:12 Alyssa
I'd rather be getting a big bikini wax.
00:57:15 Rachel
At least I would feel like I was accomplishing something.
00:57:20 Alyssa
Oh, 100%. Totally.
00:57:21 Rachel
I mean, it's like, here you want me to crash this car, while I still have to unpack your lunchboxes, get dinner going. Crashing cars, can't you just crash into the wall? This can be an independent activity. I really think I can.
00:57:35 Alyssa
Correct. I don't need to be here for those.
00:57:38 Rachel
Oh, man.
00:57:39 Alyssa
It's so real. So who are we chatting about today?
00:57:42 Pepper
Okay, we are chatting about Pepper and A Measure of Intelligence.
00:57:50 Alyssa
Yeah, yeah, I mean, isn't it nuts that the IQ is still a thing or even standardized testing? Like when we step back, the other day, someone was like, we were talking about pet peeves and they were like, my biggest pet peeve is when people throw good money at bad systems And I was like, oh man, that's a great pet peeve. And that really makes me think so much of standardized testing. And honestly, a lot of how our school systems operate. When we have research to be like, yeah, play -based education, emergent curriculum, learning through play, all these things. And then we're like, okay, now sit down crisscross applesauce and look up here at this board that is now all computerized where somebody else is going to teach you how to sound out a word via a video on a screen and we're just getting farther and farther away from like how we know kids learn and how their bodies operate and we throw good money trying to then fix these systems we're like all right how do we fix this behavior challenge or how do we whatever and I'm like yeah let's create a culture of like sensory supportive environment so that we're not in this reactive phase all the time. And that's where standardized testing and like this Measure of Intelligence really comes into for me where I'm like, we know better.
00:59:18 Rachel
Yeah. Oh man. So one thing that came up while you were talking about that is like, even just the way that now you -
00:59:26 Alyssa
Ranting about that. I'm sorry, ranting.
00:59:28 Rachel
Well, I have a rant because, and this is a little bit removed from the problems that I want to talk about with the IQ test and other standardized testing. This is like a tangent, but this just happened last night. So I'm just like feeling fresh about it. So Nora has a test today in social studies. So over the weekend, I like helped her with her study guide, whatever. It's like last night she's trying to study and there's a word on the test. And she's like, Mom, I don't know what this means or on the study guide. And it's like it's like, OK, so she's learning about ancient Israel right now, and she like doesn't understand how like the Jewish culture and tradition fit into that and I'm like honey that's literally the whole like the night before the test it's like maybe you could have talked to your teacher about this earlier and she's like well I was hoping you could explain it to me right cuz she like gets embarrassed and stuff and it's just like okay so there's a disconnect between how this material is being taught and then the expectation for them it's just like memorization without understanding what the material is makes me want to pull my hair out and I'm like Nora this is not a great way to learn but because your test is tomorrow I just need you to memorize the study guide even if you don't understand the concepts because if you memorize the study guide you'll be able to pass the test and she's like mom that's dumb like
01:00:54 Alyssa
You're like a hundred percent.
01:00:56 Rachel
I'm like I don't have control over this and frankly I don't know enough about ancient Israel and the beginnings of Judaism to like, I can't teach you this tonight. I'm sorry. I completely disagree with the teaching model and I have no control over it.
01:01:14 Alyssa
So frustrating. And like, yeah, then what you end up with are people who, it's me, I'm a phenomenal test taker. I could memorize what I needed to memorize, not retain or comprehend. And then there's Zach, not as great of a test taker, but when he learned something, he learns it for life. He comprehends it, he learns it in full. He can then like connect other things and we're watching Jeopardy and he knows like random facts. I'm like, oh yeah, I probably learned that at some point, but I memorized it for a test. So now it's gone. And I was a straight A student.
01:01:48 Rachel
That's it for me. It's like, I don't care if she knows what like a vocab word means. I want her to understand this group of people migrated from this area, and this area was the epicenter of trade, so people started to fight over it, which led to these wars because people wanted money and control. These are the cultural things that I want her to understand, because they apply to our life now, because people still want money and control. I don't give a shit if she knows that vocab word, and it's not going to impact her life in any meaningful way.
01:02:24 Alyssa
Correct. Yeah, this is so on brand and not a tangent from this topic because exactly what we're saying is like so frustrating is what's happening.
01:02:35 Rachel
It's so annoying.
01:02:36 Alyssa
She has to memorize information rather than learn it and comprehend it.
01:02:42 Rachel
Yeah, and it's like for what? So then she, because her fear is like, well, if I don't get a good grade on this test, I won't be eligible to play basketball. So it's like punishment, you know, it's just like, it's the wrong motivations. It's the wrong way of learning. It's wrong. I hope her teacher doesn't listen to this.
01:02:59 Alyssa
Even the grade on the test, well, it's also probably largely outside of the teacher's hands, which is annoying.
01:03:06 Rachel
I actually love her teacher.
01:03:08 Alyssa
It's a systems challenge. And that's what I was saying of like the education systems. It's not that teachers are like, yeah, I want to teach this way and this is how we're going to... It's like, no, you walk into every classroom and this is what, it's the same exact curriculum being presented across all of those kindergarten classrooms or all those first grade classrooms or whatever. And in the exact same way. And I'm like, how do we not just take a step back and say, hey y 'all, there's no way that all the humans in all of these classrooms have the same interests and thus should be presented that same exact information in that same way, and that they all learn only this one way. We know better. And it's the systems, though, that then put teachers in a space where they don't feel like they have a lot of control.
01:04:03 Rachel
Yeah. And I also feel like because of the way that their day is structured, I don't imagine that her teacher feels like she has the time to teach in a different way.
01:04:13 Alyssa
Right. Exactly. well, because they have to be able to take those tests and the tests are reflective of what they're supposed to have learned, right? And they're not in control of the state or standardized tests either. And so it's this, that's what I'm saying where it's when we are testing in this way and measuring intelligence in this way, we're missing so much of a human's intelligence that there are so many ways in which Zach is smarter than me, but I will test better than him.
01:04:47 Rachel
Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that came up for me during this interview was the idea that exists in our culture that your value as a person is contingent upon how intelligent, productive, et cetera, you are. And not just acknowledging that if you are human, you have value inherently. And I feel like that kind of ties into our culture's obsession with like individualism and like having goals and being productive and climbing the ladder and all of these things and like you're only valuable if you do X, Y, and Z.
01:05:33 Alyssa
Yeah. And how often, I was just chatting with a friend of mine about bonuses, like end of the year bonuses that the company was giving out. And we were talking about like bonus structures. And she has worked in small but corporate America. And her reality is that C- suite gets the biggest bonus and then everyone gets a bonus, but it's like more reflective of their salary percentage. I was like, Oh, why? Like, is the person who is doing a lot of really important smaller tasks, not contributing as much or enough to the business as the CFO. And it's like, no, we just have different jobs. And so like, there will never, ever, ever be a world in which I would receive a bonus from Seed that exceeds what anybody else is getting. Because I can't show up and do my work without everybody else doing theirs. But it was one of those systems where I was like, oh, this is one of the ones where we prioritize who's most worthy, whose work is most valued, who's worthy of a larger bonus. And it's like, also the C -suite needs the bonus less, like they're already getting paid more, right? And like that mentality though, it really comes back to like, what do you value most? I heard an interview once about, it was someone who had worked on The Office like set and like in hair and makeup. And they were talking about how Steve Carell, who obviously highest paid on that set, most famous on that set would show up and like help carry the like hair and makeup equipment stuff as he like walked and chatted with the humans behind the work like on to the set and they're like if the entire cast was incredible and whatever he was the only one who he would like carry the equipment while he walked and talked with them because he never felt bigger than carrying the equipment. And I think that we, you're absolutely right. Like we place value and worth on what a human makes, what a human can achieve, what they can do, how they can be. And then what that leads to in so many different ways, even down to like, I think of early childhood education and it's like we're forming 90 % of a child's brain by the time they go to kindergarten. These teachers should not only obviously be paid more, but also should just know and feel how impactful and valuable they are. And I don't think we do a good job of that. We do a teacher appreciation week, right? But we're not like, oh my gosh, we cannot function without you. Your work is so incredibly important.
01:08:57 Rachel
Yeah. Yeah, it's like, culturally, we're really obsessed with hierarchy.
01:09:04 Alyssa
So obsessed. Because power and control?
01:09:06 Rachel
Yeah. And it just, outside of humans with intellectual disabilities, I'm just thinking that whole ideology is frankly harmful for every human because it impacts mental health, it impacts self -worth. For people with less socioeconomic privilege, it means that they miss out on rest and connection and other things that we know are biological human needs. There's just so much to that culturally that harms us. Obviously, most acutely for humans who are living with intellectual disability who aren't even seen as fully human. Right. Because of that.
01:09:47 Alyssa
How do we shift this?
01:09:48 Rachel
Well I think Pepper's book is a good starting place. It was really eye -opening. I mean obviously the work that we're doing at Seed,
01:09:57 Alyssa
Thank you
01:09:57 Rachel
But it has to be on a policy level, right? Like there are so many things that I talk about, but like for one thing, this obsession with being productive in this country means that a lot of parents don't even get to be home with their baby. You know? It's all of these systems that are impacted by this ideology and like where do you freaking start? I don't know.
01:10:20 Alyssa
Yeah. Well, and I guess like then for me, what feels tangible is like, I can start with me. I can start by like noticing where I hold these beliefs in these narratives and just building awareness first, right? And like challenging them to myself individually. Yeah. Of like, who am I valuing above other humans?
01:10:42 Rachel
Yeah, for sure. Same.
01:10:45 Alyssa
Yeah, it's so much easier to start outside of ourselves than to start internally. I'm like, I'm not the problem, the system's the problem.
01:10:59 Rachel
Yeah, I mean, I think both are a little bit true, right?
01:11:03 Alyssa
Oh yeah, the systems are also the problem, but also it's not like I'm like, I am perfect at this and hold no fault.
01:11:14 Rachel
Yeah, totally.
01:11:15 Alyssa
You know what just came up for me? This reminds me of Sharon McMahon's book, The Small and the Mighty, which published this past year. It is so good and it highlights stories of what you might think of as like ordinary humans doing extraordinary things. And what it brought to light for me was just like, man, most people in the world are doing extraordinary things. I think that like impact the humans around them, their community, whatever. And like, we just don't hear those stories because it's happening all around us, right? It's somebody has a fire at their house and this person comes together and like rallies and make sure that that family is taken care of and they have a place to live and like, is the community like helper and organize it, right? Like so many humans really are doing incredible things. And I think what that book gave me was the hope, I guess, of, okay, if I control myself, and I'm in charge of like, what I'm going to put out into the world, and what I'm going to do and how I'm I'm gonna show up, that's enough. It's enough and can have an impact if I do that. Will it change entire systems? Maybe not, but it's enough for me to have just my own personal impact.
01:12:49 Rachel
Yeah.
01:12:51 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
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