Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic Motivation with Mr. Chazz
00:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village. This is episode 177. I got to hang out with my friend. Mr. Chazz. We met over on Instagram and it was so fun to get to hang out and have a real conversation. We dove into extrinsic versus intrinsic motivation and what this looks like to build intrinsic motivation with the tiny humans. I love how Mr. Chazz keeps it real about what the real world looks like. And the fact that there is extrinsic motivators all around us, we see rewards all around us and how this plays out in our work with the tiny humans, do me a favor. When you're tuning in, will you at take a screenshot and share it over on Instagram? Let me know your favorite takeaway from this episode. I want to hear from you tag @seed.and.sew and tag @Mr.Chazz as well. I'm really pumped to hear what really struck you in this episode. And what hits home.
00:01:03 Alyssa
Before we dive into this conversation, did you know that our Village Membership is open? Our Village Membership, only opens a couple times a year and it opens until June 17th. You have one week to come join us in the village. A space where we dive into all of your biggest parenting questions. We guide you in doing this work. You get access to our two signature courses and we walk alongside you in how to implement them in your everyday life. You get access to our membership community app where people pop in questions every day and we answer every single one, you get weekly calls with our team, a monthly Zoom hangout. So many goodies within this Village Membership. It is the space where if you have questions about your tiny humans or your family life that you want to dive into. This is the space to do it before the doors close again. So, come join us at seedandsew.org/membership. All right, folks, let's dive in.
00:02:14 Alyssa
Welcome to Voices of Your Village, a place where parents, caregivers, teachers and experts come to support one another on this wild ride of raising tiny humans. We combined decades of experience with the latest research to create the modern parenting village. Let's dive into honest conversation about real parenting challenges, so it doesn't have to be this hard. I'm your host, Alyssa Blask Campbell.
00:02:43 Alyssa
Hey everyone. Welcome back to Voices of Your Village, today I get to hang out with Mr. Chazz, which I know is a fan favorite for a lot of you guys and I'm jazzed about it too. Hi Mr. Chazz!
00:02:55 Mr. Chazz
Hello. Hello, how are you doing? Thank you for having me on. I'm excited to start the conversation. It's been a long time coming. I know you tried to set this up before so I'm glad we are here and we're doing it.
00:03:09 Alyssa
We're making it happen. You know, I mean I feel like it actually goes hand-in-hand with the conversation today because there was a lot of resilience that went into making this happen, rad. So today I want to hang out and chat about extrinsic versus intrinsic motivation. But before we do, can you share with folks just kind of like what brings you to this work? What fires you up here?
00:03:33 Mr. Chazz
Yeah so I am an educational specialist. Well that is kind of that's my day job. At least I work with nine different schools in short. I teach teachers to teach. But anyone who's worked in Early Education knows that anyone who works in Early Education does 101 million other things too. Sometimes, I'm running the school sometimes I'm in the classroom, sometimes I'm doing observations, sometimes I'm helping with, you know, creating the onboarding process. So it, you know, it's pretty all-encompassing, but it's beautiful because I get a really good perspective about a lot of things that happen, how to get to see things from everyone's perspective, which gives me a lot of insight and perspective all from as high up as the, you know, I work on a corporate level, as higher up on a corporate level to, you know, district directors, to directors in the center director, doctors to lead teachers to assistant teachers to children in the school. So it's, it's been beautiful to really speak and get insight from everyone but that's just a little bit about me.
00:04:48 Alyssa
I love it, I love it. But yeah, we wear a whole lot of hats in early ed. Yeah, a whole lot of hats sometimes too many hats.
00:04:59 Mr. Chazz
I feel like I'm juggling hats over here.
00:05:01 Alyssa
Totally. Totally, I think every early educator's, like yeah, I can relate. Rad. So, when we reached out and we're like, hey want to chat about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, I'd come up with just like a few questions that I wanted to discuss and then today I started thinking about it, my wheels just started turning and I have like now a million things circulating in my brain here. So let's start with some basics. For folks on really like, what is the difference in like how does it relate to things like a punishment reward system that we might see utilized throughout, especially early ed. But really in life, there's a lot of punishment reward systems.
00:05:42 Mr. Chazz
Yeah. So the simplest way, and I really try to make things super simple, simplest way I put the difference between the extrinsic and intrinsic motivation is the extrinsic motivation is, they're outside forces that are, that influence us to do things, right? You mentioned rewards and punishment. It is the, you know, I can, I give you a reward, will you do this? You know, can I get you to do this? If I dangled something in front of your face can I get you to move. When, same things, the punishment is if I, you know push you or scare you or coerce you enough, can I get you to move, to do the thing? That's extrinsic, something outside of the person. X exit, outside. Intrinsic, internally, is the internal motivation. It's that thing, there are those things inside of you that don't need someone to reward or punish you to get you to move on your own because it's something that you're already inspired to do and it comes in, that also comes just like extrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation comes in a lot of different forms but the best way to identify it is, if you feel yourself like having to, you know, verbally or with your facial expressions push you know, a child or a person because you know, this is this is not just children, it's adults, it's all people, to do something. You're likely using extrinsic motivators as opposed to maybe planting a seed or putting an idea into their mind and allowing them to kind of run with it. And there's been so many questions, I'm sure you'll get to and we'll talk about it more but like, you know what are the implications for like, in the school setting? Like how can I, you know, my, you know, my class or my child they're you know, if I'm a teacher and I don't feel like they're, you know, intrinsically motivated to learn the things that I'm trying to teach them you know how like, what do I do? How do I spark intrinsic motivation when it comes to like I have a lot of opinions and feelings about, you know, the school system, it kind of what we, you know, should do. But my first thought and I just, I honestly just replied back to someones comment on my post today is that sometimes we need to rethink and think about what we're asking children to do and how much control that you know, we feel like we need to have over it. That is typically when it comes to like the school setting and getting children to do things, saying this in air quotes you guys can't see it. But you know, often we need to rethink what we're requesting them to do, right? If you're asking a bunch of children to, you know, you want them to be intrinsically, motivated to sit down and be quiet while I talk at them, you know, try to throw as much information into their mind. First instead of thinking about, okay well how can I get them intrinsically motivated about that? Well first think about hmm, how about maybe I could find something in the topic? Or there's a way they can explore the topic that will be intrinsically motivating, you know, in terms of, you know, maybe they need a little bit more autonomy. They need to, let's say they're learning how to do, a couple examples right here, and I'm going off on a random, just asked the small little question. I'm just going, let's say you're learning about, you know, you want to teach them about the water cycle and so there's many ways that you could do that, you can draw the water cycle and say this is, you know, precipitation, condensation and talk about all the different parts of the water cycle and get them to repeat it. And, you know, try to just force them to sit down long enough to, you can repeat it long enough for it to stick in their mind or you can briefly introduce the topic briefly because, you know, attention spans, briefly introduce the topic. And then, you know, point out, the condensation on the water, I'm showing a water bottle right now, on the water bottle. What I used to do and I used to teach three, four and five-year-olds about the water cycle because that was something that was in our curriculum, I would take water, when we were talking about evaporation, it's not like, just yeah, sure I showed them the diagram so they can see. They can have a visual but I wasn't, it wasn't like here look, I did was, I'm going to throw this cup of water out on the ground and you see how like it's wet? Okay, I'm going to close the door and let's check back in 15 minutes. Let's see what happens. And they're like whoa where'd it go? It was wet before, where'd it go? Now they're asking me questions. Now, they're curious, now they want to explore, they're intrinsically motivated to discover what happened to that water? Right. And most of the things that we teach children if you know, there's evidence it can all be relevant to children but a lot of times we don't even take the time to really think about how we can make something relevant to children or spark the curiosity, because we rely so heavily on extrinsic. And like motivations. Throw the cup of water, have them throw the cup of water and and you know watch it, observer it, come back to it whatever it is. Instead we'll say this is the water cycle, you to sit down here for 20 minutes while I talk about it and whoever can do it gets this sticker right? Or if you don't do it then you're not going to be able to do X, Y and Z. All right, and those are the extrinsic motivators that are not as effective long term. Yeah, that's particularly punishment. That know, taking something away, might, you know, get them to sit there and listen to it and they might get that information. But it doesn't create a love of learning and discovery of school.
00:12:23 Alyssa
Totally, you hit on two things that I think are really, really key here, two words that I want to pull out from that work, curiosity, and our goal. So, when looking at this I was just having a conversation with my husband about this tiny human of ours and I was like really for me my goal for this human is to just be curious about life like about all things and I think so often our goal as adults is, and we might not have identified this necessarily but I think we all we always have these goals and sometimes it's like my goal is for my kid to do well in school and graduate. Graduate and then go on to college or whatever. And I'm afraid that if they don't do well in school with certain grades or whatever, they won't go to college and what whatever we have like these, these things already made up in our minds of like, our trajectory for these humans. And I was just saying to Zach, I was like my main goal for this human is to just be curious and I think a huge part of curiosity is knowing that you're going to make 8,000 mistakes all the time, right? That like you're going to make mistakes and we're going to, instead of oh I'm going into this and I think we do this a lot in early childhood and I think it's so beneficial with reflective practice where we're going in and saying, like, yeah, I want to try and explore this thing with kids. And then later, we're going to step back and say, man, where did the wheels come off the bus, you know, I've never gone into a day with kids and been, like, I'm going to be so perfect today and they're going to be perfect and everything's gonna go great. Like we know, we go into it, knowing like they're going to be things that don't work out great. And then we get to reflect back and figure out like what we would tweak or how I might teach something differently the next day or really looking at like man, they were really interested in superheroes and now there's been this shift like how else can I teach this same content based off what their decision but this curiosity of what, or I guess this goal of curiosity, versus a goal of like a product like an end like a whether it's a test score or for them to complete a task that we're hoping them to complete or to memorize their letters or know how to write their name, whatever it is. I feel like so often we as an adult have a specific goal that if we can step back and say, What is our goal? What is the overarching goal for us? The that goal of curiosity for us as adults is so key here because when we are focused on, we have an end product that we want them to do. Whether it's writing their name, knowing their letters, knowing their numbers scoring a certain test score etcetera when we have an end goal, that's product-based and we're focused on that. Then it's really hard for us not to tap into extrinsic motivators to get to that goal, right? But I think, when we can focus on, like, what if our goal was for these kids to be curious about this stuff, and it doesn't really matter if they spell that word, right, right now. Or if they correctly named the life cycle of a butterfly right now, but instead, if they were curious about like yeah, how does that happen? What happens when they're inside a chrysalis? Like, if we could shift, Our goal as the adults to curiosity, which is a word you kept pulling up with intrinsic motivation and I think it's such a key component.
00:15:58 Mr. Chazz
Yeah, you know, we trade our long-term goals for short-term goals.
00:16:04 Alyssa
Totally.
00:16:05 Mr. Chazz
Right. And so, we feel very comfortable, maybe not outwardly, we'd be putting it this way. Hey, but in practice, we feel very comfortable trading the child knowing their ABCs and 123s with a lifelong love of learning, right? We're very comfortable trading, you know, the kindergarten learning to read before they go to first grade with growing a love of learning of reading for life, right? Becoming a lifelong reader and one we need to be patient with a lot of stuff we want it right now. And how hypocritical is it? A us to always tell helping children to be patient and to wait, wait. But then we're very impatient about their goals, you know, we're, you know, we're very, we're very impatient about our goals for them. And we're all through, but we're not patient about their goals. For themselves, right? Or the, or the, or the, or even our long-term goals for them? Because I think everyone like, if we sat down and had a conversation with, you know, darn near every parent, they would say, you know what, are your lifelong goals or what are your goals for your child and they would talk about the more lifelong goals. I ask parents all the time say about the kind of parent would be the kind of impact that you want to have on your child always. Talking about a hundred percent of the time. It's always long-term goals. It's never like I really need them to learn their ABCs.
00:17:56 Mr. Chazz
Totally.
00:17:57 Mr. Chazz
Right now, you know, it's more about, I want Nina to be passionate. I want, it's more about our relationship. I want them to feel comfortable to come to me with their challenges so I can help them and guide them. You know, I want them to be lifelong learners. Those are the kind of things that we talked about when that we want for children, but then in practice. It becomes, we do things and part of it is, you know, lack of, with a lack of understanding. We think that like earlier is better that if I can get my, you know, four-year-old to know sight words, then they'll be reading at five and then they'll have, then they will be confident in the reading and they will be lifelong readers, you know, if I can get them to, you know, sit down in this spot for it x amount of time. I can teach them the things they need to know and then they will, you know, they will take that lesson and that experience of learning and want to do it, you know, for the rest of their lives and that's simply not true. It's so much more about the process of learning rather than the, out of the, the regurgitated outcome that we're looking for, the measurable, you know, they know, 26 words and letters. They know, they can read this amount of words and you know, that's not what it's about. Not at all, it's a process and we even talked about this. Like I think people are a lot more, and your audience will probably a lot more familiar with the process vs product conversation, we have a lot of early educators and you know at least in my, the company that I work for the whole process vs product conversation has been you know, like talk about it so much but sometimes I don't think people realize how that conversation of process versus product art really expands into every other part of learning as well.
00:19:57 Alyssa
Totally, and I think that that's something that like, I, you know, I was just thinking the other day, someone was asking me about, like, how do I get my kid to share, and to like want to share, and I think that the hard part is that yeah that's a long-term goal, right? That like so much of this we're bringing into like social emotional development. We are first building like kids awareness and kids own regulation skills and all that jazz before we're working on social skills before we're working on fostering true empathy where they're saying like I want to be a collaborative member in this community in whatever aspect that is in my in block area or wherever I want to share this thing of mine and work together with other humans. So much of that is foundational skills that come first within the kid and it is a long-term goal. And I think a lot of the time our like fear pops up of like well if they're not sharing now or if they're not doing this thing now, they're not being kind now, who will they be in three years and six years in 10 years? What will this look like in high school or down the road? And we can jump ahead to that, like, long-term space imagining that they have the same skill set today. Does that make sense?
00:21:16 Mr. Chazz
Yeah, no makes total sense. And it's funny. It's almost It's like sometimes can be a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? We will be or have that thought of this, oh no, like they're hitting right now and have that thought like they're going to, you know, go they're going to be a felon and they're gonna, you know, be in prison. If I don't stop being this right now and I don't fix it today or this week or this month they're going to be a domestic abuser because they had the person to whom they had happened, maybe to be out of whatever it is, our minds, go into so many different, we put our own filter on a child's actions and then we tell ourselves the stories about what's happening that and then that causes us to do things that may make it more likely to create or reinforce that fear. So example, so child's hitting, now today, and so now what we're going to do is because we need our child to stop hitting today, we're going to impose our power and our will with punishments. And and, you know, say like if you hit, then you know, I'm going to hit you or if you hit then, you know, I'm gonna use my power to isolate you away from the group and, you know, make you feel bad about and shame you and judge you publicly or maybe even privately to get you to stop doing that thing. And then the child learns, oh, when someone is doing something that you don't like, the way that you, you know, change or control the situation is by you know exerting your power over the other person, that's how you get things done. And so then even though our goal was really good intentions, wanted the child to stop hitting, you know, for all the best reasons, you know, our actions because we've been so worried, you want, needed to stop it today and maybe even pushed our child more towards that fear. Now, the child has learned now, the child is imposing their will or their power over their peers and they're doing more things and we shamed them. So now they've internalized that shame those insecurities. You know, the projecting it on other people. And that comes out as bullying or cyberbullying. And now that fear that we had, that likely was completely untrue and just the story that we were telling ourselves, we've made it more of a potential because of the way that we've responded.
00:24:09 Alyssa
A thousand percent. Yeah, we end up reinforcing that and it's just another end of the spectrum and yeah yeah I love that example to, I think that's so tangible. So for folks who are listening, who are like, oh yikes, I definitely have been falling into the extrinsic motivation category. I think so many of us have and do and and I think it's important to to acknowledge that there are a lot of extrinsic motivators in our everyday life, right? Like if you speed, you can get a ticket. Our culture is fully, this is this exactly what it is, right? Like if you get this grade like, whatever, like you could get into this school. Like there are so many different extrinsic motivators that we live around and so I guess if folks are like, how do I find that balance here? What, how can I support the intrinsic motivation while acknowledging that the extrinsic motivators still exists? All around us? Where do we start?
00:25:07 Mr. Chazz
Yeah, so the first thing I want to say is that, you know, I am not taking the position that all extrinsic motivators should be wiped off of the face of the earth. I do think that it is, I think that there can be a time and a place where it's reasonable, within moderation. Totally. And that there is a place, in a society of people. And so, like that's the first thing that I want to say kind of caveat before I say everything else.
00:25:47 Alyssa
Yeah, no I am here for that.
00:25:50 Mr. Chazz
Now, all of that being said, when it comes to, you know, teaching, when it comes to teaching and parenting and wanting to help another individual grow and leadership too, wanting to help another individual, learn, and grow, and progress. Intrinsic motivation is the way to go. Okay, so here are my like your tips that I would say to kind of move more towards intrinsic motivation. If you're trying to help a person, learn and grow because you also mention, right? So, speeding you get it, you know, you get a ticket, you know, you, if you assault, someone in real life, you go to jail. Like these are real things that are extrinsic motivators built into our society. Now, I will say that although that that extrinsic motivators built on and into our society. It does not mean that it helps people learn, grow, progress and not make this, and not do this behavior again.
00:26:54 Alyssa
A thousand percent. Yeah.
00:26:58 Mr. Chazz
And you know in our, there's been so much research in it and even the you know criminal justice arena of just rehabilitation as opposed to just higher, and more and more punishments. And mandatory minimums, right?
00:27:14 Alyssa
Totally.
00:27:14 Mr. Chazz
You know increasing your punishment doesn't decrease the likelihood that the person is going to reoffend, right? And you know, we were talking about the prison system because that's where, because that's where people like using the copy, where the conversation goes people say, well that's the real world we're preparing them for the real world. But let me tell you about some real world. Let me tell you about the real world, right? It doesn't reduce recidivism, recidivism is the rate at which people reoffend. What actually reduces recidivism is rehabilitation, the process of identifying you know what that those needs are? You know, and giving the tools to the person so that they can be successful in this situation that they find themselves in. In the situations that are challenging to them. Whether you know, it is, you know, getting the job or even the social-emotional skills and apparently, whatever it is, those are going to be the things. Those are the tools that we need to give, you know, employees teachers, you know, you know, parents to children everyone so that they can be more successful in navigating those challenging situations.
00:28:38 Alyssa
Totally.
00:28:39 Mr. Chazz
Not just throwing punishments or even rewards in their face.
00:28:44 Alyssa
Yeah, I was raised in a household where I would get grounded and never once in the history of me getting grounded did that stop my behavior. It just paused it for a minute. And then once I was no longer grounded, I did the same thing. I just tried to do it in a sneakier way. Because I didn't get any of the tools, they you know, it wasn't like they were like, oh, what's going on? Let's help you with what tools you are clearly communicating you need. No. They were just like you're grounded. And I was like great, pause and in this pause will rethink my strategy to doing the same thing in a sneakier way.
00:29:22 Mr. Chazz
Exactly, exactly. So, all right, now going back, that being said now how do we move towards the intrinsic motivation? So I'm glad I kind of talked about the tools but also really thinking about like what does motivate your child, those group of children. One, you want to give, try to give autonomy in situations, in learning experiences. The more autonomy, you know, a person has over their learning, their project, the more invested that they are going to be in it where you're not having to constantly push it. Think about like you know things that you have autonomy over in your life and think about how much more invested you are in those ideas and seeing those things through, you know, is one quick one. The other thing that you want to think about is, you also want to think about you can you can do this by observing you want to look at their interests, what is the mode of their learning style, right? Do they really like the, you know, hands-on and exploring, is it really, is it through, you know,
00:30:41 Mr. Chazz
playing and you know, do they just need the materials to manipulate, is it, you know, are there certain things of real like that are meaningful to them that you can connect to learning? And then also, especially as children, as people get older, you want to tap in this is kind of with the last one, but you want to tap into their like you know, their own purpose, you know, what is, what is meaningful to them, why should they want to do it? And we have a tendency as adults, as leaders, as parents, as people to give reasons that are only meaningful for us and then we try to put those reasons on other people and we expect them to adopt it, internalize it and run with it and then we get shocked when they don't do that. Because you're only thinking about, you're only thinking about it from your perspective, there's something that's meaningful to you, no, think about what's meaningful to them and talk about it in that way. Talk with them, not at them. And so those are some of the tips that I would give to help you move more towards intrinsic motivation, but one last thing, I'll say on this, it's not as easy as the extrinsic motivators.
00:32:14 Alyssa
Totally.
00:32:15 Mr. Chazz
At least short-term, right? You don't really have to think as much about extrinsic motivators, right? It's pretty blanket, right? I'm gonna ground you for anything that I disapprove of. I'm gonna give you a sticker, a gold star, doggie biscuit for anything I do approve of, you don't really have to think about it as much as you know, huh? What are you truly interested in? How can I make this meaningful for you? How would you like to, you know engage in it? And it takes a little bit more, you know, even trust in the the child and what's happening in the process, go back to that process, trust in the process and they don't have to learn that, you know, the ABC's, 123's today. Making it meaningful to them.
00:33:07 Alyssa
I think you're absolutely right, like it is harder, it is harder because it requires us to self-regulate and get curious, it requires us to say, huh, rather than like, well this isn't working or assigning meaning about who that kid is based off of their behavior. Being able to pause and say, man, what is, where are the wheels coming off this bus, what are they letting me know they need more support with? It requires our regulation, and curiosity, and it's easier to just be like, no, I need you to do this thing, and I'm going to slap a punishment or a reward on it and it takes a lot more of our own skill sets there to regulate and get curious.
00:33:53 Mr. Chazz
Yeah, yeah. No it does and when I think about like all of this, you know, the parenting, teaching and just progressing and moving is that, you know, I think that we should shame the previous generation for what, you know, how they you know, did things. The focus is more on, what can we do to improve right?
00:34:20 Alyssa
Totally.
00:34:20 Mr. Chazz
We have, we may not have all those self-regulation skills and you know that way of thinking because it's just not the way that we were raised, it's not the culture we were nurtured in and so it's going to be a lot of hard work for us to almost really rewire our brain in a how we're thinking about things and how we're going about things and the hard work that we're doing today, you know. It you know it may not create the, it will not create the perfectly intrinsically motivated human being that we all wish we all were right? I do think that we will make upgrades and improvements. It's like the first you know like the first iPhone right? What we're doing now and the cycles we're breaking now and you know, choosing, you know, for stopping to choose the fear control based teaching, parenting, leading, then, you know, that is a huge breakthrough in itself. That is a lot of it, it is the jump between the flip phone and the iphone. But it's not to say that there aren't more, you know, generations and upgrades to come, right? We look at the iPhone. Now, the first iPhone and we're like, oh that's a piece of like no one would would use it. It wouldn't, it's not very, you know? But our children are going to be able to grow off of that and upgrade and the, you know, the next generation, you know, and it's going to be that iPhone 2 to the 5 to the 10 and hopefully we make more progress than you know, which each generation of phones do, are making progress, so it's not about, I always talk about, it's not about being perfect everyday, it's about improving every day, don't be a perfectionist. Be a realist.
00:36:21 Alyssa
Yeah. Well, and that's how we spark that curious thinking, my friend. Dr. Lynetta Willis, she does a lot of work on healing intergenerational trauma. And she describes it as a relay race where she's like, we're passing the baton, and like, we were passed the baton and it had some crap with it that we're going to try and heal. And then we're going to have our own crap that we pass along and kids are going to then, what I want is that my tiny human is looking and saying like man, hey Mom, there's some stuff I'm going to do a little differently like if they get to adulthood and nothing has changed, we're not progressing enough, you know, like in the same way that gosh, I just saw a picture of the other day of baby me in a car seat and I was like, how did I survive like that is like a bucket with like a strap on it basically. And of course, now today the car seat that my tiny humans in, is an entirely different car seat. And I hope that we continue to see this progress, generationally where we're saying, man, we learned something and we're going to do it differently and I think that there when we start that re parenting work of taking a good look at like, what are we bringing from our childhood? It can come with some like guilt or shame or discomfort of even acknowledging that our parents weren't perfect. And I think it's a rad place to start because they weren't perfect. And we don't have to be, we won't be and our kids won't be.
00:37:53 Mr. Chazz
Yeah, no it's I was talking about, like, perfection is like that, it's an illness. We should never be trying to strive for perfection. It doesn't exist. It is, it, all it will do is stress us out to try and be something, move towards something that is that we can never achieve, but you can always achieve improving a little, a little, a little bit more and again it will bring this back full circle, you know it's about the process, right? It's the, it's not about the end goal us here. It's not about eliminating all, you know, extrinsic motivators perfectly in every situation now being perfect and everything, you know, no, there being no conflict. Like, even in that conflict is the point sometimes, right? Sometimes we need that conflict. Like we need to go through the process, you know, the, you know, the climb, you know, the uphill battle that is just as important as know, whatever we do see ourselves in, you know, five years, whatever, that destination does, look look like five years and by the way, there is no, like I said, like there's no, you know, perfect. There really is no destination in this whole teaching, leadership, parenting processes but we all are all, you know, we're going through.
00:39:38 Alyssa
Totally. Yeah, I love that. It's again reframing, that goal to like rather than that end product. Rather than that end goal like I really want, my goals curiosity for everybody, for within my partnership, for me to be curious about why my husband might be responding in that way that for me feels bonkers. I got to get curious about it. You know, or why the kid is doing this thing, or why maybe my employees are showing up in certain ways, like, getting curious is my goal here, and I think that it has really helped been like, rather than seeing it as like a, right or wrong. It provides a lot of gray space where we get to hang out and hypothesize, Mr. Chazz, this is so fun for me.
00:40:25 Mr. Chazz
Yeah. And I, since you're talking and bring up curiosity and, let me let's, let's let me drive into that a little bit more to, and how curiosity can really be, so beneficial for us, that frustration, curiosity can replace that frustration that you feel when you want to, you know, when you want to yell at your partner, or your child, And you know, punish them or scold them or shame them, you know, we can replace that that frustration, that anger that we, where we want to kind of attack, with curiosity and if we can do that then a lot of that you know frustration starts to go away especially if we really see what's happening. You know, I think about it so I am like a bit of a poet and I'm kind of lately been writing a lot of like spoken word that like at some point I'm going to put out. I haven't really put out all or really any spoken word, but there's going to be time when we're putting out a lot and I was writing. And I was talking about that, I don't remember the exact words, but the metaphor that I was using that, like, if a lot of times when behavior that a child is communicating, when they're in distress or yelling or maybe even a partner and their action that be, but that behavior is really communicating a distress call, right? It's really a help a cry for help and, you know, even though it may outwardly look at look like the child still saying, no and screaming at you. It's really a cry, it's really them drowning and saying help help. I need help. I can't handle this situation. I don't know how to, like, I'm hooked on to this screen. I'm so like into it and I don't know how to pull myself away right now and it's really hard for me help help. Now those aren't the words that are coming out and it's not the behavior, then, you know, the behavior may be like, no, I want to play. XY and Z is maybe what it will look like. And then we may interpret as, you know, disrespect to us and disrespect to our authority. And so then, so we respond with, you know, a brush of like no, you're going to get off right now. If you do blah blah blah with the finger wagging and the shaming and then we we're butting heads and really and, you know, the metaphor of just the childs scream for help where instead of helping, reaching out and helping and pulling them up, helping with some throwing them an inflatable. We're really dropping an anchor down on them right and causing them from drown even further. And if we were really, you know, we could replace in that moment where they're screaming for help but maybe their behavior say no, no. It's like I don't want to do it. I don't like you mommy or whatever it is. And we instead of getting frustrated attacking, we replaced it with curiosity. Then with our curiosity glasses, we could see actually see the child drowning and it's hard to be mad at a child and attack and be really frustrated at a child or person when we see them drowning. Because when we actually see them drowning, no matter what that person did to, you can help them up, right? And then and you know, help them up, get them to safety and then have the conversation about whatever the conversation needs to be had and give them the tools and okay. Next time you know you're on the deep end, I see what the problem is because I had my curiosity lenses on and we talked me out of conversation. Now I know I can give you these floaties next time you're in these deep waters and that should be you know that you know can help you swim. You know, that's the ocean part, right? And so that's I just wanted to...
00:44:39 Alyssa
Oh I love it. I love it so much. It's such a great visual. It's such a good visual. Mr. Chas, if people want to continue to connect with you and follow you, where can they find you?
00:44:49 Mr. Chazz
You can find me on, Tik Tok, @mrchazzmrchazz. You can also find me on Instagram as @MrChazz. You can find me on Facebook as Mr. Chazz. Find me on LinkedIn as Mr. Chazz. Also, find my podcast called "Leadership, Parenting and Teaching Podcast". You can probably if you want one on one coaching with me and you also want access to my weekly sessions, where we do Q&A's, you can ask your own questions, you can do that through my patreon, www.patreon.com/mrchazz. I bring on different experts, you know, every week and we have conversations about you know different things, be able to ask whatever question you want whether it's on topic or not and we will answer. I think those are the places you can find me right now? I have some exciting things that I'm planning to do like media. Like there's some like a book that I'm in the process of writing, you know, I actually after this phone call, I don't know this doesn't have to be recorded or not but I'm sharing it with you. Yeah. After this phone. Call cuz I'm super excited, I have a meeting with a TV producer who's done some, you know, pretty notable things and we're going to be talking about, you know, a potential TV show. And I have some ideas for it and really kind of bringing my content to life and showing some real experiences and perspectives and just really making it all makes sense. And like, I have, like, what I feel like in my head is going to be groundbreaking, it's something I've never seen on TV before, so I'm super excited for that. I hope, you know it, maybe might popup, hopefully, it'll pop up on Netflix or something like that.
00:46:49 Alyssa
That's awesome. That's so awesome. Cheers to you, man. That's rad. Thank you so much for hanging out with me. This is so fun to just get nerdy about and have real life convos about and I am grateful for you sharing your time with us.
00:47:05 Mr. Chazz
Yeah, no problem. Well, I'm glad that we were able to reschedule and do this because you're definitely a joy to talk to.
00:47:13 Alyssa
Thanks!
00:47:14 Mr. Chazz
Glad you could, you know, we could do the podcast, I see that you're in your jammies, you're on bed rest?
00:47:22 Alyssa
Just settling right in there. living in the jams these days!
00:47:31 Alyssa
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