Navigating School Lunch with Feeding Littles’ Megan McNamee, MPH, RDN

 

00:00:00    Alyssa

You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today we get to dive into a topic that is just always on my mind, I feel like. We get to chat about navigating school lunch with Feeding Littles co -founder Megan McNamee. She is a registered dietitian and nutritionist and co -founder of Feeding Littles, one of my favorite Instagram accounts. She specializes in pediatric nutrition and eating disorder prevention. Megan and her business partner Judy help parents feel confident feeding their babies, toddlers, and big kids through online courses and social media support. What I'm so stoked about is that they just launched their second book, Feeding Littles Lunches. It's a realistic lunchbox inspiration book. And let me tell you, I have a copy. It is gorgeous and so helpful. I sat down with Sage, my three and a half year old, and we went through the book and looked at the pictures and he found things that he wanted to try. And y 'all, he is a picky eater and sensory sensitive. And so finding lunches that work can be so challenging. And I feel like I just get stuck in the same thing over and over and just trying to find things that he will eat. And this book has been so, so helpful. Head on over and snag Feeding Littles Lunches. You will not regret it. All right, folks, let's dive in. 

 

00:01:28    Alyssa

Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together. 

 

00:01:49    Alyssa

How you doing?  Re: like getting ready for book pub. 

 

00:01:53    Megan

Yeah, yeah, it's a, my kids already are back to school. So that was a big relief. It's been chaotic. 

 

00:01:59    Alyssa

That's a plus side of being in the South. Your kids are back in school. 

 

00:02:04    Megan

Yes, I'm in Arizona. So we have, I don't know why it does, we do that. Cause even California doesn't come back. 

 

00:02:12    Alyssa

Oh, they don't? 

 

00:02:12    Megan

But my sister's in Texas and she starts soon. So I don't know. When do you guys start? 

 

00:02:16    Alyssa

I feel like anytime it's any place it's warm. Y 'all start soon. 

 

00:02:20    Megan

Why? Because it's hotter, like we should go later into June because the worst month is August. 

 

00:02:26    Alyssa

Yeah. That is interesting. I don't know why. We, yeah, we don't start back until most kids, sometimes it's the last week of August, but a lot of schools here are the first week of September, like after Labor Day. 

 

00:02:39    Megan

And where are you? You're in the East Coast, right? 

 

00:02:40    Alyssa

Yeah, Vermont. 

 

00:02:41    Megan

Okay. Awesome. 

 

00:02:42    Alyssa

And I grew up in New York, and so, and same thing there. We always started after Labor Day. But, well, that's nice for you for parenting right now. 

 

00:02:49    Megan

It is very helpful. A lot of people are like, why is the book not out? And a lot of that has to do with just the fact that we didn't get our book deal till last Cinco de Mayo is actually when we kind of agreed on it. So I said, well, it needs to be out for back to school and needs to be out in August. And they're like, well, you need to submit it then in three months. And I was like, what? Because they require a whole year. You need a whole year once you turn in your manuscript. So everyone,  we'll get DMs and people will be like, I wish it was out sooner. And I'm like, you have no idea. 

 

00:03:17    Alyssa

I literally cannot. Wow. So you have it ready to rock. You had it ready to rock in like four months. 

 

00:03:27    Megan

Three months. 

 

00:03:29    Alyssa

Megan. That's insane. It's so good. 

 

00:03:32    Megan

Thank you. 

 

00:03:33    Alyssa

It's so good. Okay. This I selfishly was like, oh my God, I'm so jazzed that I now have a copy of this like early. I have a three and a half year old who would be classified as a picky eater, is a sensory sensitive kid and packing lunches is our pain point. Last night, I literally sat down with him. I love that there's pictures because I sat down with him and we went through it. It kind of reminded me as like of being a kid and like going through like catalogs or magazines at my grandparents' house like flagging what I wanted for Christmas. He just like let us know like, yep, this looks yummy. Nope, I don't like that part like here. We made a list of like, okay, here are some other things we can try for lunches that he is currently at least on paper open to. And I was like, Oh my gosh, what a fun jumping off point for us because it had really we had just talked about how we had felt like we were in this rut of like, making the same things. 

 

00:04:30    Megan

Yeah. And I want to give you one extra tool that you might not realize that that's in the book. You can grab the QR code anywhere. If you find the QR code in the book, it's all throughout the introduction. If you go there, there is a, um, a downloadable printable. We made them in like 12 different designs or something. And so if he's into trucks or astronauts or whatever, and it gives you the Feeding Little's Lunch formula, you know, starch, protein, et cetera, and you can literally fill it out, like you can print it and fill it out with ease. And two, and that's another kind of, it's helpful for older kids that are packing their lunches. But I think it's also helpful for younger kids who are struggling with different foods and you can kind of have a reminder of like, oh yeah, we went to try this and we wanted to do this without, you can mark up your book if you want, obviously, but if you don't want to mark up your book, it's a nice way to have that resource. 

 

00:05:16    Alyssa

Yeah, I just actually just this morning went through and took them. I had the little sticky, the teeny tiny sticky notes on each page and went through and we wrote down every piece. It is so, so, so helpful. We started off with like, oh, we'll just feed him whatever we're eating, whatever. And he was like, here's a dose of humble pie for you, mom. And he just won't eat. And then he will completely melt. For him, texture's really huge as a part of eating. And yeah, as a sensory sensitive kid, like tactile sensitivities are really big for him. And it comes in a lot in eating. So thank you for some new ideas. 

 

00:06:03    Megan

It's so gratifying because it's something we worked on for so, you know, we were thinking about it for a while. Came up with the idea because when we had our cookbook, we usually give out freebies to encourage people to pre -order and we gave out a lunch freebie with 26 lunch ideas, just really basic iPhone photos and people went totally bonkers for it. Like bonkers bonkers for it. To the point where I was like, what is this what people really want? And then I was like, you know what? We're going to make something different. We're not doing a cookbook for this next book. We're doing a coffee table book almost, but it's for your kitchen. The idea is you look through it. It's very visual. It's not, there's no recipes in it because I don't want to make recipes for lunch. I don't know about you. 

 

00:06:39    Alyssa

Oh, my gosh. The last thing I want to do. 

 

00:06:41    Megan

You know, there's chicken salad in there. Go buy chicken salad. If you want to make it homemade, guess what? There's millions of recipes online for that. 

 

00:06:46    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:06:47    Megan

But, you know, the point is, it needs to be something that your kid can look through with you. That's the point. 

 

00:06:53    Alyssa

It's so true.  Having that like just listed out is so helpful. Do you know Susie Allison, Busy Toddler? 

 

00:07:03    Megan

She may or may not be featured in the book. You probably haven't seen that. 

 

00:07:06    Alyssa

Oh, my God. I haven't seen it. Okay, fun. Yeah. So Susie's a good friend and she had put out in January this year, she did like every day a different activity you could do with kids at home when you're like stuck inside. And I was like, Suz, can you send over that like complete list for me? Like I did not jot them all down or whatever. She was like, yeah, here's my like blog post of all of them. And I was like, oh, can we turn this into a PDF that I can just print off and have accessible? Like she was like, really, that's helpful? And I was like, yeah, that's all I want. I want just the list of activities. Here are things you can pull from. And that's what this feels like for me. It's just here is what you can pull from. Yeah. 

 

00:07:44    Megan

We've gone digital with everything, but I think we're forgetting how sometimes it's helpful to hold something in your hands and not have to look at a device to see it. And especially for kids, there's so many lunch ideas online and that's great, but a lot of times you don't remember where they are and you don't necessarily want to be leafing through your phone all the time with your kid. This is so awesome to hear that kids are using it with their parents. That's like the biggest honor for us is, this is almost like a children's book as much as it is a parent's book. 

 

00:08:12    Alyssa

Yeah, and it honestly for him is also exposure to other foods in a way that maybe it's not on the table, but he's seeing it. And then we talked about like, what is that? That's something we haven't had in our household before and then chatted about different foods. So helpful, love it. And you're right, like the, I'm also really guilty of like, oh, I took a screenshot of this idea and then it just lives a screenshot of my phone and never revisit it. It's like taking a video at a concert. I'm never watching that again. Yeah. 

 

00:08:41    Megan

Well, in a lot of the ideas online, I kind of feel like we're,  part of the intent of this book was to also fight back against the very extremes of the lunchbox world. You're either doing a Lunchable, which is fine, totally fine if that's what you to do or you're doing cut out letters and butterflies and making like shapes and objects out of all of their food and you know cooking for hours to create this beautiful bento that probably gets a lot of likes and engagement on Instagram but it's not real for most people. 

 

00:09:14    Alyssa

I don't have the time and capacity and also my kids not gonna freaking eat it so like I'm not. 

 

00:09:21    Megan

So that's where this is like the middle ground between the things right it's like okay I want to be packing something and I want to be giving them some variety, and I really do want to emphasize, if you want to pack Lunchables every day, you do you like that. 

 

00:09:32    Alyssa

I mean, you had leftover pizza and stuff in here too, I love that, where I was like, yeah. 

 

00:09:37    Megan

My kids, it's actually one of the things my kids love the most, and it's great for Mondays if we got pizza like on Saturday or Sunday night, I'm like, oh, and I literally take a pizza cutter and I cut it into little triangles, and it's easy to pick it up at small little bite -sized pieces. And that is almost like a guaranteed food for them to eat. 

 

00:09:55    Alyssa

Yeah, I love that. 

 

00:09:57    Megan

It's so easy. And you just pair it with a fruit, a veggie, and maybe like a little dessert. And now you've got balance and you spent three minutes making it. It doesn't have to be complicated to be like nutritious, but also something your kid will like to eat. 

 

00:10:10    Alyssa

That brings me to one of my biggest questions here, which is what your top lunch packing tips are in terms of that, like diversifying and whatnot. What do you, what do you got for me? 

 

00:10:22    Megan

Okay. I think having the formula in mind, we call it the Feeding Littles' Lunch Formula. And this is something that I've naturally done since I was just a dietitian. And I'm always like, Oh, we have to have balance and the different food groups. You might not always have all of these food groups, but the idea is that if you offer a starch, a protein, a fruit and a vegetable, that's kind of the core of your lunches. And then that's something fun, a dip, a dessert or a chip, something else like that, you're giving, you're naturally giving your child variety and exposure. So they're seeing a fruit every single day, they're seeing a vegetable every single day. And when kids see things over and over again, it helps them become more familiar with them and more comfortable eating those foods. And I'll give you a little example, where I live, and my kids are almost nine and eleven right now. But when they were in preschool, I redid the preschool menu for their snacks. And parents are responsible for bringing those snacks in. I'm sure a lot of people relate to that at their preschool, like, you're in charge of a snack probably twice a semester and you have to go off the calendar, right? Well, I made the calendar and I'm pretty – I'm a dietician but I'm very realistic, intuitive eating dietician. Like I know that kids aren't going to eat the super off -the -wall things but we put some stuff in there that was a little different for some kids. For example, hummus and carrots – I'm sorry, hummus and cucumbers, that's what it was, hummus and cucumbers and pita. And I still talk to teachers there. I actually sometimes even see parents in the wild shopping for the ingredients. And what they'll say is the beginning of the year that the preschoolers will just eat the pita, right, the first month or two. But by the third or fourth month, they're starting to get curious about the hummus, they're starting to try the cucumbers. And suddenly, by the end of the year, all of them are eating everything on the snack menu. And it's exposure, it's being around other kids that are eating it too. It's that consistency of seeing it over and over again in a safe way. And then when they go the next year and they have the same calendar, then they're more comfortable with those foods. I know it's frustrating when kids don't eat certain things and that lunchbox comes back totally full. My kids still do it too sometimes and there's no rhyme or reason. A lot of it has to do with the social environment of school that kind of trumps everything, unfortunately. You know, if they're talking to their friend and they're too busy to eat, like no matter what you pack, they're not gonna eat sometimes. But if you keep serving a little bit of variety, even just something different than the day before. So even if you're just alternating between two different vegetables and two different fruits, that kind of thing, you are exposing them to more and you're teaching them to expect variety. And so when they see something different in their lunchbox then, it's not as upsetting or it's not overwhelming to them because they're like, oh yeah, I do get variety. I don't have to eat it if I don't want to. But over time, they tend to eat it because it's comfortable to them. 

 

00:13:03    Alyssa

Yeah, it's familiar, right? And I, for myself, what I had to get better at was not putting like five sticks of cucumber in there when I know he's not going to touch it, because then I was fired up, right? In the same way that if I put together like an activity for him and he doesn't want to do it, doesn't want to interact with it, invitation to play or whatever. If I put a lot of time and effort into it, then it's a harder blow for me than if I'm like, yep, I gave him one stick of cucumber, and I'm okay with if that one stick of cucumber does not get eaten, that feels okay for me from like a waste standpoint, from a financial standpoint, right, from an effort standpoint. 

 

00:13:44    Megan

Frustration in general. It's actually a tactic, too. One stick of cucumber is less overwhelming to your child. Because it's not this inherent expectation that you have to eat a lot of it. It's like, oh, there's just one of them, I'll try it. So it's ironic in that when you do very small portions of things that kids are less familiar what they're less interested in, they're more likely to eat them, and you're like less likely to get ticked off, because they ate it, or you didn't waste that much, you know? So it works for both of us, it works on both sides. 

 

00:14:14    Alyssa

Within the, like putting together the lunches that are in the book, what was your approach in terms of including different dietary challenges, isn't the word I want? 

 

00:14:25    Megan

Yeah, like allergies, and preferences, 

 

00:14:26    Alyssa

Specifications, yeah, 

 

00:14:28    Megan

Yeah, that's a great question. So we wanted to make this inclusive for kids that have allergies and intolerances and people that maybe don't eat dairy for certain reasons or vegetarians, which is kind of a tall order, right? When you're talking about lots of easy things that you can assemble quickly, that's one of the contributors. So I mentioned Susie from Busy Toddler as a contributor. Another contributor is Kathlena, The Allergy Chef, who is literally brilliant about allergies and foods that are allergy safe. So she went through and modified every single lunch for the top nine allergens. And it's a little too complicated to put like, try this bread and this product in the book itself. So we made a QR code that goes to an allergy kit. And that's like a 30 something page little book for allergy families. And it's like all the different brands and we can update that versus it being printed in the book. So if there's something new that comes out or a brand, you know, goes away, then we can still have that live and active. But Kathlena, I cannot express to you my gratitude toward her work for this. It was, it really was her. She reached out and said, you know, I, I know you want to make this allergy inclusive. Can I help? And she just poured so much time into it. And it's, you know, the allergy community is relatively small, but they're mighty and they don't have a lot of people considering them. And it's an honor to offer something to them that might be helpful and more inclusive in that way. Um, but every, every lunch that has, you know, any sort of meat product also has a vegetarian swap. Um, and then we have all these different ideas for how to make things easier for kids to eat or different. So like use that chicken salad example, if you have a picky eater and they're not really into like mayo based salads, we just say, try just chicken, just try pulled chicken or rotisserie chicken from the store leftover chicken that you made last night. Not everyone's going to eat every single lunch. Right. And it's just like when you get a cookbook, you're not going to make every single recipe, because you can't please every single palate. But the idea is that when you look through it, you feel like you can find yourself in some of the lunch ideas, and that it broadens your horizons at a pace that feels comfortable to you. Like, I'm not making wildly, wildly different lunches every day, where it's like, I never repeat anything for a whole month. No way. Like, my kids are getting lots of repeats. I kind of go through a lot of the same things. But it's helped even me, even having our team coming up all these ideas, I still like the book as a reminder. 

 

00:16:53    Alyssa

Yeah. So helpful. 

 

00:16:55    Megan

Yeah. And then, of course, my kids have become a little spoiled, because now they're like, well, mom, why don't we try this now? Why don't we do this now? And I'm like, why can't I just do a peanut butter sandwich? You know, but it's fun, like they're and that's kind of the whole point. Like you might get the book and be like, I'm fine with what I'm doing. Maybe I'll alternate a few things and add a few ideas here and there to like, it's not supposed to be guilt inducing. It's just, it's just about taking away some of the mental load. 

 

00:17:22    Alyssa

I mean, praise be, because the mental load is so real. As of right now, I mean, Mila's just about eight months old, so we'll see how things unfold with her. But my three -and -a -half -year -old doesn't have allergies that we know about. But his classroom, there are two allergies. And so for us, the allergen QR code is so helpful because we're not accustomed to shopping for different brands or things outside of what we usually do. And so having that as an option to just be like, okay, what else can I snag to accommodate this for the classroom and keep all the kids safe is way less mental load, whereas if you're an allergy family, most likely you're also a little accustomed to looking for certain things that are for your child. And so I also found that helpful for us as a non -allergy family trying to support kiddos who have allergies. 

 

00:18:12    Megan

The allergy situation is really tricky because, and we talk about this in the book, there's a whole section about allergies. If your kid has an allergy, and especially if it's life -threatening, it's terrifying to send them to school. 

 

00:18:24    Alyssa

Terrifying. 

 

00:18:25    Megan

Terrifying. And I think a lot of people forget that. A lot of people get really annoyed or they don't think allergies are as serious as they are. I grew up with a sister who had an anaphylactic response to tree nuts and finned fish, but not shellfish and not peanuts. And they're very different allergens, but people oftentimes lump them all together. So if we went to a restaurant where they fried fish, and if they fried their French fries in the same oil, which, you know, as a kid, she was ordering French fries a lot, she would have a response. And she could potentially stop breathing. And so it is super scary to send your kid into the world when you have to deal with that reality. And at the same time, if your child only eats peanut butter jelly sandwiches, it is really hard to offer something else for lunch because it's scary when you think they won't eat. And so, you know, both sides are really challenging. And I think it's important, as you're saying, to be considerate of our allergy families and to know that, like, nobody's trying to make everyone's life miserable. This is something that is a reality for some families, and it's hard and scary. And the nice thing about the book is there's lots of alternatives and lots of other things. I want to remind parents, you do not need to send your kid with a sandwich for lunch, like ever. You don't have to have a sandwich. My kids don't really like sandwiches. Like a lot of kids don't eat sandwiches very often. And I think we grew up with sandwiches. If you grew up in the US, that was just such a thing. It was just a sandwich every day, right? Bologna, turkey, PBJ, that's what we had. 

 

00:20:00    Alyssa

Yep. Ham and cheese. 

 

00:20:01    Megan

Ham and cheese, there you go. So it's okay that if you don't want to serve a sandwich or not, people think they have to have this formal entree. Again, if you're serving a protein, a starch, a fruit, a vegetable, that's a lunch. And if your child really is that PBJ kid and you need alternatives, that's why I think the book can be really helpful. But yeah, our allergy families, they're warriors, man. They deal with some scary stuff and it's really hard. 

 

00:20:27    Alyssa

And on that picky eater side, for me personally, I was like, you know, he will eat food, he'll be a disaster if he doesn't, but for him it isn't life or death in that he will eat some food. And so sending the thing that he's comfortable with that could put another kid at risk, life or death wise, doesn't make sense for me personally. 

 

00:20:53    Megan

Right. 

 

00:20:54    Alyssa

And what we did, I, because we can't do peanut butter in his classroom, but they can do almond butter. And so he was very accustomed up until then having peanut butter, and he loves peanut butter. And we talked about it, we said, there's someone at your school who, if they eat peanut butter, or if somebody around them has peanut butter, and they accidentally have any of it, their body can stop breathing. And it's really not safe for them, it's quite dangerous. And so we get to choose, there's other kinds of butter that you can put on this. And we tried, we did like a little taste test and we tried some that were in the like safe category and he got to pick and he ended up going with almond butter but it was like Sunbutter and almond butter, whatever. And he got to, we did little like mini sandwiches and he taste tested and chose. And that way for us, he was like also a part of the process too. And he got to play around with it. 

 

00:21:46    Megan

Well, and I think that builds empathy, right? Like once children understand allergies and how hard it can be for the family that's dealing with them, especially if they're life -threatening. I think kids are also naturally kind and good -hearted. And I think when you start to explain something like that to them, it's like, oh, okay, I don't want to hurt my friend. I don't want to put my friend at risk. My kids are always like, mommy, does this have peanut butter? We have to make sure at this place and da, da, da, da. They're very thoughtful about that because I think it's something that we can teach at a very young age. Our school doesn't have allergy restrictions for what, it was just interesting as most schools do at preschool didn't either, but I do want to encourage families that have that you know that situation to talk to your school and be very specific kind of what you mentioned about you're allowed to do tree nuts... sometimes a no nut policy will be confusing because peanuts are technically legumes they're not actually nuts but if they say no nuts they're oftentimes just referring to peanuts, and they're not necessarily referring to tree nuts like almonds or cashews or walnuts. So if the allergy is just to peanuts, it's nice to be able to have those other options. Eat Nutt-Zo is one of those little those nut butter brands that's a blend. I don't know if you've tried that before. A lot of kids really like that. There's cashew butter is mild and a little bit more sweet. On the nut -free, completely nut -free side, granola butter is also an option that a lot of kids like. And then Sunbutter. So there are alternatives and I'm it's really sweet that you guys were you know being so thoughtful about that but I think it's really important to ask your school and say hey what is allowed you know sometimes if there's a no nut policy because of a tree nut allergy and so you can't do you know almonds or cashews or any of that they won't even let you even do pine nuts that could be in... 

 

00:23:37    Alyssa

Yeah in pesto 

 

00:23:39    Megan

Pesto, yes, or they won't let you do tahini because that has sesame if there's like a sesame allergy. So there's a lot of different allergies, and a lot of different things that we probably need to just ask. It's just it's okay to just clarify with your school, like, can you just tell me what, you know what we can have and what we can't. And the nice thing is the book actually kind of goes through all of the allergens and what all that means. And it kind of helps you suss it out a little bit. 

 

00:24:05    Alyssa

When your kids, because I'm gonna, I'm gonna wager a guess that your kids also don't always eat their lunches and come home with like full -packed things that you had just sent in the morning? What do you do then? 

 

00:24:18    Megan

It's a great question. So again, mine are like almost 9 and 11. So they have the capacity to talk. And I chat with them. And we go through. I said, Hey, I noticed you didn't have much of your lunch. What happened? What's up? Did you not like it? Did you not have enough time? They're now, my oldest just started middle school. And because of schedule, they've added another period of like an enrichment, like a support period, which is great. But they took it from lunch. 

 

00:24:44    Alyssa

Oh, my gosh. Of course, they did. 

 

00:24:48    Megan

So, she's like, we have like 15 minutes max, 10 minutes. 

 

00:24:50    Alyssa

Oh, my gosh. 

 

00:24:52    Megan

So now I'm actually in a weird place where I can't even have my kids buy lunch because they really do not have enough time to eat it. They have like three, four, five minutes to eat if they buy hot lunch. 

 

00:25:02    Alyssa

Oh, man. So now you also have to be like an advocate of the school. 

 

00:25:05    Megan

And I actually am a big fan of school lunches. Yes, they're flawed in so many ways, but they're also like are life -saving to so many kids and families. And I tell people like, have you ever worked in a school cafeteria and tried to figure out how to make palatable, inexpensive food that still meets these guidelines? It is not easy. And I challenge anyone who likes to be a big, you know, who likes to dog on school lunches. I want to be like, I want to see you try. What would you do? Because it is hard. 

 

00:25:33    Alyssa

I grew up having mostly school lunch. I grew up in a community that was over 90 % free and reduced lunch. And so it was also just like commonplace. Most kids in my school got lunch. And I'm a huge fan of school lunch. I cannot believe how little time there is now for lunch. 

 

00:25:54    Megan

It's really reduced. So when my kids don't eat, essentially I go back to like, what happened? I asked them, what's up? What can we do to make things easier? If your kids aren't eating because they can't open containers or they're struggling. If you send a whole mandarin orange, that might be hard for them to eat. I like to peel things or deconstruct things as much as possible to minimize that. Even because I send things in boxes with ice packs, you can take the string cheese out of the wrapper. You can peel the mandarin orange. You can cut the things that might be hard to eat, and that helps reduce some of that challenge. In preschool, they usually have teachers there, eating with them, that can open their boxes and close their boxes. But once they get to elementary school, it's usually not even teachers in cafeteria. It's usually just like there's cafeteria aides and other employees that are there. And they might not know your kid very well, and your kid might not be very comfortable with them. So it's really important that they know how to open up their gear before you start. 

 

00:26:52    Alyssa

We have also found, re: a sensory sensitive child, that it's such a stimulating time, like mealtime, just everybody around and talking and the sensory experience of eating, that his capacity for tasks is so much lower during mealtime. And so can he open a cheese stick? Yeah. Is he more likely to eat that cheese stick if I've pre -opened it? Also, yes. That he just doesn't have as much capacity during mealtimes to navigate those things. And so I think of it too, on that like task demand capacity side as an eating experience. 

 

00:27:28    Megan

I love that perspective. I think going back to your question, you know, what do I do if they don't eat it? Can I give it to them again? That's the big question. You can as long as it's safe. So let's talk about food safety and lunches. And those of us that grew up in the wild, wild 80s and 90s are going to be like, what, I had a warm bologna every day. I'm fine. 

 

00:27:49    Alyssa

100%. 

 

00:27:51    Megan

The technical guideline, and as a dietitian who is like ServSafe Certified, I have to be like careful about food safety and talking about food safety. It's all about risk mitigation. Technically, lunches that have anything perishable in them, which is basically pretty much everything you send. If you look at, we have a list in the book, it's like any kind of fruit or vegetable that's cut up in any way. It's not like literally whole in its original form, has to be sent refrigerated or cold or on ice packs. And they recommend two ice packs and then an insulated bag that helps keep it cold. And, um, I like the PackIt bags that are,  have the built -in ice because then you don't have to deal with, you know, ice packs running, running around, but it's technically two ice packs, one on the top, one on the bottom, and you can use thin ones, um, but that's going to help keep it safe. Depending on when your child is done with school, if they're in preschool and they're done at 12:30 and they just brought their lunch out and it was in the refrigerator the whole time. Yeah, that food is probably still safe to eat. If they're done at 3:30 from elementary school or daycare or whatever, or five o 'clock, and you're getting that food and it's been, the ice packs are melted, it hasn't been in a fridge, it's probably not safe to eat. And so it really, that's the first question people say, can I serve it again? Well, is it safe to eat? If you're a little bit unsure whether or not it's safe, technically foods, you know, we don't recommend that those lunches stay out without any sort of refrigeration longer than two hours, if they don't have ice packs. So that's kind of the, you know, has it been warm for longer than two hours, quite possibly, it's not really worth the risk for them to eat it. Again, did we eat warm meat? Yeah. And where we probably fine, yeah, it's just about how our risk of foodborne illness increases exponentially, the longer yeah, in a temperature danger zone. That's literally what it's called. So I tell people.. 

 

00:29:45    Alyssa

What if it's not perishable? What if it's like the trail mix he didn't touch. 

 

00:29:48    Megan

Then that's totally fine. There's a lot of non -perishable foods. We actually have a list in the book, too, for people that are going on field trips, and you have to send a non -perishable lunch. It's a little tricky, right? Because if you think about, it's like PBJ. OK, well, maybe it's a sun butter and jelly sandwich. But if your kid doesn't like that or isn't into that, then it's like a tuna kit. It's a little challenging. There's some ideas in there, though, that are pretty good. But if it's non -perishable, you're fine. but if it's perishable and it's been kept cold and you're comfortable with that, you can give it to your kid again. We just recommend not making it a punitive thing. You can't get another... 

 

00:30:26    Alyssa

You'll keep having this until you eat it and then you can have something else.

 

00:30:30    Megan

 Which feels really yucky for a kid who's like, I don't... 

 

00:30:34    Alyssa

Or any human. Alyssa, you're going to eat your watermelon and until you eat that watermelon, you're not having another fruit. But I don't want watermelon. 

 

00:30:43    Megan

I don't want that right now. And I know it's a privilege to even speak to that, especially if you've ever had any food insecurity in your life, right? Or if you're experiencing it right now, but for a lot of kids, a lot of times they don't eat it because of the social or overwhelming, you know, sensory environment. And it's not because they didn't want to eat it. So my kids will sometimes get in the car and literally be like, I'm starving. And I'll be like, did you eat your lunch? No, we didn't have any time. This is literally the same trope over and over again. Right. And you know, they ate probably half of it. And then I'll say, well, do you want to eat any more of it right now? Cause with those PackIt bags, their lunches are still cold when I get them home, like still totally safe. And so a lot of times they'll eat them again in the car on the way to practice and they'll have it, you know, they'll kind of finish off their lunches. So that's kind of our approach is like, they don't eat it, ask them why. And then what do you do about it? Yeah, you can repurpose that food if it's still safe. We just, you know, recommend not making it kind of this punishment vibe. And a lot of people will eat it. They'll actually, the adult might use it as part of their snack later, or a lot of people that compost will put it as part of their composting efforts. It is frustrating, it sucks, but I will tell you this, even if you serve the things that your kids love the absolute most, like their absolute favorite foods, they don't always eat it at school. There are no guarantees. 

 

00:32:06    Alyssa

Or even frankly at home, like I find if Sage has that same breakfast, by day four of that same breakfast, he's like, I want something else. 

 

00:32:14    Megan

Yeah. Well, and there's that too. We get bored, right? So kids like a little bit of novelty and they want something a little bit different, but you know, there are some like good old trusty's that we have and I'll send them to my kids and I'll even ask them, why didn't you eat it? You know, always gentle with this. I'm never, you know, accusatory. I'm always like, Hey, curious, what happened here? Why didn't you eat your bell peppers? You really liked bell peppers. I thought, Oh, I don't know. I just forgot about them. There's not always a good reason. So, you know, it's frustrating for parents, but it is kind of part of the process, unfortunately. 

 

00:32:48    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. It is. It is frustrating and unfortunately part of it. I wasn't sure like from an exposure perspective, like say I sent the trail mix, he doesn't eat it. And then the next day, if I put it back in there, is it like too soon where he's like, get it out of here? I don't want it right now. Is it easier or better for him if I wait a few days? It doesn't matter. 

 

00:33:07    Megan

I think it doesn't matter. I think you try both. If you're doing it literally every single, for every single lunch until he eats it, that's again, kind of getting back to the food element, but like if you're trying it again the next day, totally fine. And you know, one tip that I want to offer your audience that can really help is, just kind of made me remember, you didn't need the trail mix and people are like, well, scoop it out from this lunchbox and put it in this lunchbox kind of thing. Another thing that makes packing lunches easier is packing them the night before, if you can. And I know people think I'm crazy for saying that. 

 

00:33:37    Alyssa

No, that's what we do in our house. 

 

00:33:39    Megan

I couldn't do it in the morning. We have no time. 

 

00:33:41    Alyssa

Mornings are insane. 

 

00:33:42    Megan

They're insane. I actually teach a bar class from 6 to 7 a .m. and then my kids, we have to leave by 7:25. There is no way, no way I would pack lunches. If I forget to do it the night before, I'm like, well, guess who's buying? Like it would never work. And so packing the night before, I love to do it when I'm either unpacking the lunches and I'm doing it all at the same time or I'm getting dinner ready. Getting the kitchen dirty at one time instead of a bunch of times is going to make you less rageful and frustrated. So do it, I mean, I'll be chopping stuff for dinner. And I was just thinking, you know, the bell pepper example, like I'm making something of bell peppers for dinner. I will literally put raw bell peppers into the lunchboxes. It's already out and it's already cut and it's way easier. So anytime you have the opportunity to use leftovers or something from the meal the night before, it's going to make you a little bit less frustrated about this process. 

 

00:34:37    Alyssa

Yeah, it's exactly what we do. I'm not my best parenting self in the morning. It's just not the time that I shine as a human. And so adding anything to the morning is really just I go slowly off the deep end. And so we always do it the night before and we did start like, okay, leftovers go in, but then started pulling it into the dinner prep, and that was a game changer. Because even the leftovers, what would happen is after we'd eat, then things are nutty, right? We're getting ready for tubby. We have two young kids, and then we're going up for bed and yada, yada. And we would come down and be like, oh, we have to clean the kitchen and put together lunches and yada, yada. And then when we moved it to while we're cooking dinner, we're just going to place things in here and not even and wait for it to be leftovers, right? Just like repurpose as we go, was very helpful in my household. Love that tip. 

 

00:35:34    Megan

Yep, it also helps to unpack while you're already doing other dishes. So like I'll literally, I know that some people only have one lunchbox, but if you can do two, it is nice to alternate because then you can wash one of them while you're doing your dishes for dinner. You just don't have to do it twice. 

 

00:35:50    Alyssa

Yeah, we actually got some extras on our local like Facebook Buy Nothing group. Oh, I love that. Anybody getting rid of any of this jazz? 

 

00:35:57    Megan

And they are. Yeah. You should come over to my house. I have like literally a lunchbox cabinet. 

 

00:36:03    Alyssa

I love that. Of course you do. On brand, Megan, that is on brand. Well, I am so jazzed that y 'all made this resource and that families get to dive into it because it's already serving my household and I'm so grateful for it. Folks, head out and grab Feeding Littles Lunches. It's first of all, a gorgeous book and second of all, very, very helpful. Thank you. Megan, is there anything else you want to leave folks with? 

 

00:36:37    Megan

I appreciate the opportunity to say that. I guess I just want to say something like this. If this feels yucky to you or like it's tasks that you hate, you are not alone and it does not need to be Pinterest perfect and it does not need to be complicated. 

 

00:36:54    Alyssa

Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. Thank you. Yeah. I'm not a Pinterest perfect mom. I appreciate that. Thank you so much, Megan. 

 

00:37:02    Megan

Thank you. 

 

00:37:02  

[Music]

 

00:37:09    Alyssa

I actually showered yesterday and blow dried my hair for the first time in I don't even know how long. 

 

00:37:15    Rachel

Did it feel good? 

 

00:37:16    Alyssa

Oh my gosh. I was like, oh, I really feel like a human. 

 

00:37:21    Rachel

I know. It's crazy what just like a shower and a blow dry can do when it's not something that you've been having. 

 

00:37:31    Alyssa

It's really, really rejuvenating. Really rejuvenating. Oh man, I, yeah. Yeah, it's those little things. They go a long way over here. 

 

00:37:44    Megan

Yeah, same. 

 

00:37:45    Alyssa

You know what I've been thinking about? I've been thinking about how Sagey has dropped his nap most days, and when he doesn't nap, we go up for tubby at 6:30, 6:45. He's in bed by 7:30. We've always been on the later side, later side, later evening, later morning kind of family, where he would go to bed at like 8:30, sometimes 9 -ish, and get up by 7:30. And now with this, he wants to get up in the sixes, which I'm not a fan of. And I'm not going to bed earlier, he goes to bed, but I'm not going to bed earlier. Often Beans isn't asleep yet, she goes to bed between 8 and 9 still, most days. And so I was just like, oh, really what I lost was just like that morning time in between six and seven. And how it also like cuts down on our like hangability right now, where I was saying like, I just feel really lonely lately in parenthood. And I think part of it is like when he is going to start the bedtime routine at like 6:45. By the time like people are done with work and whatever. 

 

00:39:13    Rachel

You have no time. 

 

00:39:14    Alyssa

Yeah, we can't like hang or have friends over or whatever. The other night I got a text from Francesca and she was like, Hi, turns out I am whelmed by my daughter going to kindergarten and this snuck up on me. Can I come over with snacks and we can cry slash talk about it? I was like, yeah. Yeah. And both the kids are going to be down by eight, and I was like, why don't you come over after I put the kids down? And yeah, we did that, and it was delightful, and it filled my cup. And I was like, oh yeah, I've been missing adult hangs. We've just been in this rat race of with the early bedtime. It just - 

 

00:39:53    Rachel

It changes so much. 

 

00:39:55    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:39:55    Rachel

So I remember how early Nora went to bed when she was little. So no matter what we did, Nora woke up. Five was sleeping, five was the target. it. There were times where she was in the fours and we did everything to change it. It just wasn't changing. Outside of letting her scream in her crib in the morning hours, which we chose not to utilize that. No judgment for people who do. Couldn't do it. Anyway, she had to be in bed by six to not be a wreck. Our evenings, and that was also a really isolating time in parenthood. Cody was newly working for the warden service, too. He was never home, and we lived in Gorham, and Nora had to go to bed at six. I was just like, well, I guess I'm just going to be a lonely 

 

00:40:41    Alyssa

– I'm going to read seven billion books. 

 

00:40:44    Rachel

Yeah, because I wasn't working yet. Sometimes I look back at that, and I'm like, how did I – I don't know how I did it, because now I have this wonderful community of parents that I hang out with and connect with on a regular basis and I look back at so many years of parenthood where I was alone pretty much all the time. I'm like dang I don't know how I came out of that like mentally intact.

 

00:41:13    Alyssa

Yeah well I feel just like alone with Zach in it right it's just like the two of us and I 

 

00:41:18    Rachel

You're on an island 

 

00:41:19    Alyssa

And I have higher connection needs than he does and so I like need more friend time than he does. I need that engagement interaction in a different way. Yeah, and I was like, oh, I feel like that's been playing such a big role, is that early bedtime. Man, yeah, I forgot about those early Noni days. It's so hard. 

 

00:41:40    Rachel

It sucks, and it's like you're kind of trapped right now. This dropping into the last nap kind of traps you because it's like no matter what you do, it kind of sucks. If you still let him nap to get a later bedtime, then it's too late. 

 

00:41:52    Alyssa

He's fighting bedtime, and he doesn't want to go down, 

 

00:41:55    Rachel

Totally 

 

00:41:56    Alyssa

He's coming out of his room and at least when he doesn't nap like bedtime super easy because he's really tired 

 

00:42:01    Rachel

100 % 

 

00:42:02    Alyssa

Yeah 

 

00:42:03    Rachel

Hard bedtime is so triggering for me personally. I'm like I have poured into you all day I've been so present with you, 

 

00:42:10    Alyssa

I'm done

 

00:42:11    Rachel

I don't want to interact with you anymore. I really don't real. 

 

00:42:15    Alyssa

I love you so much I'll see you in the morning. 

 

00:42:16    Rachel

Yeah, like 

 

00:42:17    Alyssa

Byeee 

 

00:42:18    Rachel

Yeah, I can only give so much to you and I've given it all. 

 

00:42:22    Alyssa

Okay, this brings up something I wasn't sure if I was gonna share. 

 

00:42:25    Rachel

Okay, what's up? 

 

00:42:26    Alyssa

I think A. I'm gonna get a lot of crap for this. And 

 

00:42:32    Rachel

You gonna talk about Mila? 

 

00:42:34    Alyssa

Nope. I'll get a lot of crap for that, too. 

 

00:42:38    Rachel

Save that for another day. 

 

00:42:40    Alyssa

I started my first reward chart. 

 

00:42:43    Rachel

Okay, tell me about it. 

 

00:42:45    Alyssa

Yeah, let's go. So Sage was, ever since we let go of the binky, which was when he like cut his lip. 

 

00:42:54    Rachel

Totally. Yes, I remember this. 

 

00:42:56    Alyssa

And then he couldn't use the binkies, he had the stitches. And then we were like, oh, yeah, it's gone now. 

 

00:43:01    Rachel

Whoopsie. Cut your mouth, and whoops, binkies gone. 

 

00:43:06    Alyssa

Byee. He tried it right after he got his stitches, and he said it hurt. And we were like, OK, you don't have to use it. And then it was a week of stitches where it just like, we were like, this is it. This is the time. And he didn't ask for it again for two weeks later. And we were just like, oh, yeah, we're done with binkies. And he was like, OK. But ever since then, he was on and off, of waking up overnight and/or coming out of his room. So it started with like, he would climb out of his crib for the first time and then he was like showing up by my bedside. And then it just like continued and then it became more and more. And then it was like, he was waking up multiple times overnight and getting up in either the fives or the sixes and coming out of his room. And I was just, we tried a whole bunch of different things and we're using the light. And then he was so anxious about the light, he woke up at one night, he was up for an hour and a half saying, like, when is the light going to come on? Like, when's it going to happen? And we're like, when there's a seven on your clock, and he can tell time. And so he's like, looking at it. And he's like, watching the clock, basically. And he would like, call out in the monitor, there's a five on my clock, next will be six. And we're like, yes, go to sleep. 

 

00:44:16    Rachel

You're like, shuteee!

 

00:44:19    Alyssa

Bye. And I'm like, then Zach started sleeping in the other room with the monitor because he was waking up so much. Oh my gosh. And then I'm up a million times with Mila at that point. So I'm in our room a million times up throughout the night with Mila. Zach's in Mila's room up with the monitor so that he's up a million times the Sage. We both end up with a kid in our bed in the morning. And we were just like, this is not working for anybody involved. We tried a whole bunch of different things and finally, I was like, Zach, I'm going to do a reward chart. He was like, actually, I read Tiny Humans, Big Emotions. I don't know if you've read this book before, but reward charts aren't effective. I was like, for sure, for sure. I was like, reward charts, this is a short -term fix, right? 

 

00:45:09    Rachel

Totally. You're just in a season right now. 

 

00:45:11    Alyssa

Yes, and I was like, this is not going to fix whatever the long -term thing is here, but I'm going to try and short -term reward chart my way out of this, and it's slaying. Because reward charts do slay for a temporary amount of time, but 10 out of 10 would recommend. Also, we're using candy as the reward, so come at me. We, every single day that he wakes up where he has not come out of his room or needed an adult to go in. So he can wake up overnight and if he needs us, we talk to him through the monitor. But if an adult doesn't have to go in or he doesn't come out before there's a seven on his clock, then he gets a Swedish fish in the morning and he marks it on this chart. And then after a certain number of them, he gets to pick from his Halloween candy bag. Which is still going in our house. 

 

00:46:07    Rachel

I, yeah, maybe people will come for you, but also like, I have also used rewards. And on the flip side of that, to me, it's not a punishment, but maybe it'll feel like a punishment to some people. When, for Nora, like a prerequisite to her being able to have sleepovers with her best friend is that she is consistently treating me and Cody with kindness and respect. And that doesn't mean you're one -off, like, oh, she was cranky, and then I'm like, well, there goes your sleepover. But if there are multiple times where she is outright disrespectful, and we address it calmly and she continues because that's something she'll do. It's like I ask her to please stop talking to me, and she'll just be like, why don't you stop talking? It's your attitude. You know, that kind of thing. And so if that kind of thing happens, then it's like, okay, if you can't prioritize kindness and respect in our family, I'm not going to facilitate you investing more time in friendships. And spin that any way you want, maybe it's a punishment. But it works for her because friend time's a high priority for her. And I'm not taking away friend hangs, like her cousin's here today and she's playing, but sleepovers are a special thing, so we don't do them very often. And so this is the line that I've drawn, and I don't feel guilty about it at all. 

 

00:47:38    Alyssa

No. So, okay. In that same vein, from when it comes to kindness and respect for us, I will let Sage know I'm here when you're ready to be kind to me. It's for me the same as hitting or kicking or spitting or whatever, where I'm not going to let you do that. I'm not going to participate in this conversation when you aren't being kind to me. If you're screaming in my face, if you're whatever, I love you. I'm not abandoning you. I'm not going to engage in this conversation. When you are ready to speak to me kindly, I'm happy to figure this out with you. At which point I usually get a, 'you can't be in this house'. 

 

00:48:22    Rachel

Oh, yeah. I get some real good one -liners. 

 

00:48:26    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:48:27    Rachel

But I think like external motivators have their place and… 

 

00:48:33    Alyssa

Well, no. I'm just like I don't want – yeah, I guess that's so mine is like separate than the reward chart situation where I'm just like I don't want him to think you can just talk to me like this and I'm just going to continue to engage with you in conversation. This isn't how we speak to each other. 

 

00:48:46    Rachel

100%. 

 

00:48:46    Alyssa

If he's like off the deep end, like it's distress mode, whatever, then that's different. You know, I'm like present in there with him. And when he's screaming at me last night cause I'm trying to take a splinter out of his body and he hadn't had a nap, it's the end of the day, and blah, blah, blah, like that's different. But when I know he has the capacity for regulation and control, then that's my expectation is that you're going to be kind to me. And I'll say, if you need help calming your body so you can be kind, I'm happy to help you. While I'm doing this. But yeah, with the reward chart is slaying. 

 

00:49:27    Rachel

Yeah, hey, if that helps you get more sleep. 

 

00:49:29    Alyssa

Night number one, Rach. Night number one. He has not come out of his room once since we started it. 

 

00:49:35    Rachel

Yeah, loving the Swedish fish. Loving it. 

 

00:49:38    Alyssa

Obsessed. I'm like, girl, I got Swedish fish for you. 

 

00:49:42    Rachel

Yeah, and it's like, it's not like it's negatively impacting. It's not like, oh, well, now you're not securely attached. Sorry. It's like, these things are part of, there are seasons of life situations where, yeah, you're not following Tiny Humans, Big Emotions to the letter and like that's okay. 

 

00:50:00    Alyssa

I'm, I'm not a fan of rewarding your way out of feelings, right? So reward chart where you didn't express your feelings. If it was like, yo, you didn't cry at school today or you didn't whatever and now you get a reward. I'm never going to reward my way out of feelings expression. It's like behavior and habits really. For him it's anytime we've like turned to any sort of type reward type system, it's the first reward chart I've ever made but anytime we've done something even close to this, it's when he's fallen into habits that I know have just gotten to the point of habit. In the same way that, and I will say I, my biggest mental health trigger is sleep. And so for me to be the parent I want to be for him, I need to sleep. And I knew that I needed Zach to help me with some sleep support for Mila in order for me to sleep and Zach couldn't because he was helping Sage all night. 

 

00:51:06    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

00:51:07    Alyssa

And so once Sage was asleep, literally night one of the reward chart, I was like, that went well. And night two, I was like, all right, Zach, we're doing Mila now. And Mila has done awesome. She had the first, we basically, she was nursing every 90 minutes, sometimes more. And I was like, this is how I die. And I had gotten to actually a really dark space. For me, I go to a place where I want to leave everything. I want to run away from my family. I want to run away from my life. I want to run. I'm like, I am not capable of doing any of this. And I hate every person that I see. And I want to run away from all of it. And so I told Zach, I was like, I'm in want to run away space. Gotta tackle this. And we, because she was nursing so frequently, I was like, after the first time that she nurses after she goes down, after that nursing sesh, I want to get a four -hour stretch of sleep. And so I did. I went into her room and set an alarm for myself, and after four hours, I went back into our room, and then the next time, and Zach switched, so then he went to her room so he could get a stretch of sleep, and then the next time she woke up, I was there nursed or whatever. And the first night, she screamed for Zach. She was mad that it was him, but she would like scream and then calm and scream and then calm. And ultimately he goes, 'I vagus-nerved her'. And he was like, I just started humming. And she laid her head on my chest and ultimately fell back asleep on him. So she was being supported and tended to by him, just mad that it was not me. And night number five, she just nursed one time last night. 

 

00:52:53    Alyssa

Yeah, that's so great. It was actually kind of an accident because I nursed her the first time, we were still doing the same plan. I nursed her the first time and then I went into the other room and I forgot to set the alarm. 

 

00:53:05    Rachel

Oh, shucks. 

 

00:53:08    Alyssa

Zach came in at 6 a .m. and was like, hey, I'm going to go hop in the shower. She's asleep in our room. I helped her back to sleep like an hour ago and I looked at the clock and I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And I went into our room, she woke up a half hour later. But it was also a good test because he said she woke up at 5 and I would have just been in there and nursed her again. And he said he supported her and within five minutes she was back down. 

 

00:53:37    Rachel

So then she wasn't hungry. 

 

00:53:39    Alyssa

Right, exactly. And then she got up at 6:30 for the day. So a Milli cheers. And now I feel like such a more regulated parent now that Sage's reward chart is supporting us. Thank you, Swedish Fish, the real MVP. 

 

00:53:55    Rachel

Seriously. 

 

00:53:57    Alyssa

Mila's not nursing 7 million times a day. 

 

00:53:59    Rachel

Yeah. I'm so glad. 

 

00:54:01    Alyssa

Thank you. Who are we chatting about today, by the way? 

 

00:54:04    Rachel

All right. Today, we are talking about Megan from Feeding Littles. 

 

00:54:08    Alyssa

Yeah, love.

 

00:54:10    Rachel

First of all - 

 

00:54:10    Alyssa

I'm seriously obsessed with this book. 

 

00:54:12    Rachel

I need it. It's not out yet and I need it. I'm so excited for it to come out. I was just thinking, actually, as I was working out today, I'm getting really close to the time of year where I'm going to be packing lunches five days a week. 

 

00:54:29    Alyssa

Mm -hmm. Fun. It's really fun. I love it. 

 

00:54:33    Rachel

Most of the time, back to school, I'm like one of those moms that pisses people off because I cut cute shapes and do all that shit. 

 

00:54:39    Alyssa

It's true. 

 

00:54:40    Rachel

But usually, in the beginning of the year, I'm invigorated by it, and this year, I'm I just, I don't want to do it. I think part of it is because with Nora, I know what she will eat. She's pretty easy to pack for. Abel changes all the time, and he'll only eat fruit at home because he doesn't like how there are textural changes, and whatever, he won't eat packed fruit. 

 

00:55:05    Alyssa

Yeah, his capacity for the texture. 

 

00:55:09    Rachel

The inconsistency. He can't do that. 

 

00:55:11    Alyssa

Well, and just like the spoiler alert, Easter egg, there's a podcast episode coming up that's about sensory -friendly classrooms. And one of the things we were talking about in there was your capacity for different things in different environments. That for kids, if the school day is really dysregulating and overstimulating, then their capacity for certain activities may be, if they're tactilely sensitive, they have a hard time with dealing with glue or paint or something like that at school, but at home, they don't of a hard time if they're not dysregulated. And so it could be the same thing for him food -wise, that eating in general might be hard for him at school from the sensitivities perspective. 

 

00:55:51    Rachel

Yeah. And so what he wants is just something, just dry, crunchy things, right? 

 

00:55:57    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:55:57    Rachel

So it's like, yeah, there's plenty to choose from, but I like how she breaks down hitting a starch, a protein, a fruit, and a veg, because there is that cultural thing of, oh, I need to pack a sandwich. He's not going to eat a sandwich. He's definitely not going to eat a sandwich. 

 

00:56:12    Alyssa

Sage doesn't eat sandwiches. 

 

00:56:14    Rachel

Guaranteed. Zero sandwich consumption. And so I have to start thinking, and this is part of the mental load, right, of what needs to be on my grocery list, and how am I going to present it in his lunchbox in a way that hopefully he'll freaking eat it.  I don't want him to be hungry at school when school's already really hard for him. 

 

00:56:32    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. There are so many options in the book. And I also love how approachable it is. Like there was not a single one where I was like, oh cool, yeah, if I ever make this gourmet meal, I can put that in my kid's lunch and then have them not eat it. Like no, they were all really approachable and actually it was comforting for me where I was like, I think we're doing an okay job. 

 

00:56:56    Rachel

Yeah, I loved that too. It did feel really approachable. And I liked the way that she talked about like, because sometimes I'll have things come up about like food waste and wasting money. And all of that from childhood and whatever else. And I like how she mentioned that even serving one piece of cucumber is a great way, it doesn't have to be a whole pile of cucumber. You can just serve one carrot stick or one cucumber stick and it's exposure and it's low pressure. And so trying to keep that in mind moving into this school year of not getting so flustered about it and just like, yeah, I'm just going to give him one small piece of cucumber and if it comes home, fine. 

 

00:57:43    Alyssa

I'm really, that's an area of growth for me. It also was relieving for me to like be reminded it can just be one piece and that's exposure and that's helpful and that if he's never exposed, he's never going to ever even try it. 

 

00:57:58    Rachel

Right. 

 

00:57:58    Alyssa

And I just fall into the space where I'm like, you know, the last 7 billion times I put a carrot in your lunchbox, you didn't touch it, I'm not putting a carrot in there anymore. You know, it's like repeating the same thing, expecting different results is how that like feels for me. 

 

00:58:12    Alyssa

Yes. 

 

00:58:13    Alyssa

And I just wanna put things in that I know he'll eat. And so exposing him to new things is my area of growth. 

 

00:58:22    Rachel

Same. Yeah, cause it's my own feelings about like wasting and whatever else. 

 

00:58:29    Alyssa

Yeah, it's wasting for me. it also just feels like a waste of my time. 

 

00:58:34    Rachel

That's what I mean, like effort, money, food, all of it. And also, I also come at this from fear of if I pack too many things that are iffy for him, then he's gonna be doing eight hours of something that's hard for him and hungry. I can't think of a worse setup. 

 

00:58:55    Alyssa

Also, I love my children so much, but I don't really like when he's hangry. 

 

00:59:04    Rachel

Oh, I hate it when my kids are hangry. 

 

00:59:05    Alyssa

Like, no, I don't really like him when he's hangry. Like, he is not kind. He is a disaster. 

 

00:59:15    Rachel

I'm smiling, not at your feelings. I'm smiling at something that I said to Nora, which I'm gonna share it here, because it's real and I'm not proud of it, but it's real. So Nora, I also don't like Nora when she's hangry. She's like so hard to be around. What really sucks is that it's my fault when she's hangry. So it's like ugh. But anyway, so we were in the car. 

 

00:59:38    Alyssa

What do you mean it's your fault when she's hangry? 

 

00:59:40    Rachel

I didn't offer her proper, like I didn't, you know what I mean? 

 

00:59:44    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:59:45    Rachel

Like yeah, she's old enough to get her own snack, but she's going to get like gummies or friggin'. 

 

00:59:49    Alyssa

Mine is, it's not my fault when he's hangry. I have friggin' offered him food and he said no, and I'm like, eat the food because I'm I'm not going to like you in 15 minutes. 

 

00:59:58    Rachel

Okay, so actually I did offer her food, but she didn't like it because it wasn't fruit. Shocking. But anyway, so this is like one of the meanest things I've ever said to her. The other day, we've had several family outings recently where she has been so dysregulated and so rude. Such a pain in the butt complaining, like whatever. So this was happening. We were, and I felt pressure, we're in the truck. Cody was putting on a barbecue for the people that he supervised all summer, and so even before we got— 

 

01:00:29    Alyssa

High stakes. Yeah. 

 

01:00:30    Rachel

Even before we got in the car, I sat down on the floor in the living room with the kids while we were all getting ready, and I was like, okay guys, so today we are spending time with people that dad works with. What do you think they would want to see from us? What do you think would make daddy feel proud of us? And so we're going through, we're going to treat each other with kindness, we're going to be respectful, whatever. Anyway, the kids start brawling in the back of the car over these like magnets and Nora is the antagonizing, Abel's like beating the crap out of her with a coat hanger and I'm having to like jump in the backseat block it and Nora starts going off because I, instead of addressing Abel first, which is what in Nora's eyes would have been the correct way to parent, she loves to give me parenting advice, Um, I turned to her and said like, hey, this started because you were tricking him with those magnets and you had two, but you were pretending you had one and you were teasing him and he got really, really, really mad. And you continued to do it even when he asked you to stop, even when I asked you to stop. Well, she was hangry and this set off a defensive soliloquy. It was just… It was bad. So it's going on and on, we're feeding off each other. It's like stress cycle, it's like the textbook stress cycle. 

 

01:01:52    Alyssa

Totally. 

 

01:01:52    Rachel

And at one point I go, your attitude ruins family outings. 

 

01:02:00    Alyssa

Hello, childhood. 

 

01:02:05    Rachel

Oh, man. Yeah. 

 

01:02:07    Alyssa

What'd she say? 

 

01:02:08    Rachel

Oh, she wasn't phased. This is the thing about her, is like because she and I have such a trusting relationship, like, we get into these, like, verbal battles, and, like, literally wasn't fazed at all. She was like, well, your attitude is making everything worse, so maybe if you weren't being so rude to me. And I'm like, okay, sick. So part of me is like, cool, you are being so rude to me, but the other part of me is like, she cries when, like, my mom corrects her, and my mom's, like, so kind and gentle with her, and she'll still, like, tear up, and then the fact that she just gives it back to me, part of me is like, okay, I'm doing something right here because you are feeling safe to advocate for yourself and I don't like the way you're doing it and that's a different discussion. 

 

01:02:54    Alyssa

You're feeling very safe here. 

 

01:02:56    Rachel

A little too safe. 

 

01:03:01    Alyssa

Oh, that's so real. 

 

01:03:02    Rachel

But I don't, of course, it's not okay for her to speak to me like that. We talked about it later when we were both calm, but I don't want her to be afraid of me. 

 

01:03:10    Alyssa

Yeah, totally. She isn't. 

 

01:03:12    Rachel

She's not. 

 

01:03:13    Alyssa

No. No, no, yeah, I had a nice chat with her when we were at the beach and just like stole her away and called it market research. And I asked her just a slew of questions related to our book and content, whatever. And my takeaway from all of it was like, oh man, I hope I have this relationship with my kids when they're this age. 

 

01:03:39    Rachel

That makes me feel so good, thanks. 

 

01:03:42    Alyssa

Yeah, it's real. Like, she knows, above all else, she knows she can turn to you with anything and that she won't be in trouble and you'll help her figure it out. And like that answer rang true through so many of the questions I asked. And I just kept being like, man, yeah, this is it. Like, is she going to make mistakes and be a pain in the butt sometimes and whatever? Sure. 

 

01:04:06    Rachel

Sure. And am I going to tell her that she ruins things? Yes. 

 

01:04:09    Alyssa

Correct. 

 

01:04:09    Rachel

But at the root, it's easy to repair with her. 

 

01:04:16    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:04:16   

[child’s voice]

 

01:04:18    Rachel

What, honey? 

 

01:04:19    Abel

I'm hungry. 

 

01:04:20    Rachel

You're hungry? 

 

01:04:21    Alyssa

Oh, speaking of which. Your timing is impeccable. 

 

01:04:26    Rachel

Okay, you can grab anything off that shelf in the pantry that you can reach, you can grab it. And then I can actually cook for you when I'm done. 

 

01:04:34    Abel

I don't know what I want. 

 

01:04:35    Rachel

The other option is that you can finish my smoothie. Do you want it? 

 

01:04:41    Abel 

No thanks 

 

01:04:42    Rachel

Ok

 

01:04:43    Alyssa

No thanks. No thanks.  I love that voice. 

 

01:04:48    Rachel

So it's easier for us to repair. I still shouldn't have said that to her, but honestly, I don't feel that bad about it because it didn't have like a, it didn't like separate us. 

 

01:04:57    Alyssa

Because you have a foundation of trust and connection first, right? And like that is what's so huge. If you said that to her and she didn't already have that foundation with you, it's a different story. Because then she's constantly like, I'm not lovable. I'm the worst. I ruin everything. And that's already her inner narrative, right? And then you say that to her, and it just confirms her inner narrative, versus you already have this foundation of love and trust and belonging. And then you say something like that. And she's like, Yeah, right. 

 

01:05:33    Rachel

Legit that was her vibe. 

 

01:05:33    Alyssa

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. My, I interviewed another, I've interviewed a few kids like just wanted like to hear their thoughts on our book stuff. And I interviewed another kid who also is like a really confident, like, she's confident in who she is. But she also is confident in like her relationships, her relationship with her parents, her relationship with her besties and so I had asked like what if you stood up for somebody that was getting made fun of and what if the person that was making fun of somebody else was your best friend and you, because she said she would say something to them, and I was like well what if you did what if you said something uh to that person and they turned and they made fun of you? And she was like what would they say? I was like I don't know maybe they would say that you're stupid or you're ugly or or something like that, you can't be friends. And she was like, I'm not stupid and I'm not ugly. And I was like, yeah, for sure. And she basically was like, what do they have bad to say about me? I'm great. And she just felt so confident in who she was and in that relationship. And she said, she was like, we've had arguments before. And I was like, oh, what happens when you have arguments? She was like, sometimes she'll tell me if I do something mean, or I'll tell her if she does something mean. And then we talk about it and sometimes she needs some space and she was like, she's somebody kind of like, she named somebody else that we know who needs space and remember, just give her space. And then when we come back together, I'm like, are we cool? She'll say like, yeah, we're cool. Or she'll say, no, this still hurts my feelings or whatever. And she's like, well, just talk about it. And I was like, that's so sick. She was like so confident in her relationships and in herself that the insult, she was just like, it doesn't hit deep because I don't believe it's true about me. 

 

01:07:28    Rachel

Right. Yeah. That's totally where... I also think age plays into this. If I told Abel, for instance, that his outing was ruining a family outing, he'd be devastated. I think, legit, all I have to do is not smile back at him the right way, and he's like... 

 

01:07:48    Alyssa

Well, I was going to say interception also plays a role here. 

 

01:07:51    Rachel

One thousand percent. 

 

01:07:52    Alyssa

Yeah, yeah, yeah But for Nones you've had four additional years to pour into your relationship with her So then when these things come up, it's a different blow. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, not liking our kids when they're hangry Whoo, so that's my fear like I'm gonna give them food that they're not gonna want to eat and then they won't eat and then I have to be around them.

 

01:08:21    Rachel

Mm -hmm. Yeah. And like, try to parent. 

 

01:08:26    Alyssa

It's all about me. 

 

01:08:27    Rachel

Well, yeah, it is and it isn't because... 

 

01:08:30    Alyssa

It kind of is. 

 

01:08:32    Rachel

Okay, but hear me out. You're... I think really at the core of this is you don't want to treat your kids unkindly. 

 

01:08:44    Alyssa

Correct. 

 

01:08:46    Rachel

And parenting hangry kids tends to bring out a dysregulated, at least for me, a dysregulated side of myself that I don't want to be the pattern in my parenting. 

 

01:08:58    Alyssa

I also just want to have a good time, though, and that's the part that's about me. 

 

01:09:02    Rachel

It's inconvenient. 

 

01:09:03    Alyssa

And annoying, and not how I want to spend my time. I'll turn to Zach sometimes and I'll just say, like, I'm not having a good time. And sometimes he'll say, yeah, life isn't always a good time. Like, and it's real, but like, I'm like, yeah, why spend your time doing this when you can just eat your lunch and then we can have a good time? 

 

01:09:23    Rachel

It's like when it just feels so unnecessary. Like friends-- 

 

01:09:27    Alyssa

That's it. 

 

01:09:28    Rachel

Just eat. 

 

01:09:30    Alyssa

Yeah, the rest of it, like, oh, you felt left out or you're feeling sad about this thing or whatever. Like those feelings that are just gonna come up, I am totally fine to navigate and I don't feel like I have to be having a good time all the time with those. It's when it feels so unavoidable and it is a sensory need like food, just eat the food. 

 

01:09:49    Rachel

Yeah, don't fight me. It's like sleep. It's like don't fight me. I know you're tired. Just go to sleep. I hate this. 

 

01:09:55    Alyssa

Go to sleep. Yeah. Yep. 

 

01:09:57    Rachel

Yeah, I totally get that feeling. 

 

01:10:00    Alyssa

Yeah, and then I'm not kind. 

 

01:10:03    Rachel

Yeah, 

 

01:10:04    Alyssa

I'm like, oh I could sit here and emotion coach you all day long, but what you need is food. And so I just want to disconnect and dissociate in those moments because I'm like, just we're riding this out until you eat food. 

 

01:10:17    Rachel

You know what? I dissociate a lot, especially with Abel because like Nora and I can have that verbal back and forth and there's no major damage, but like with Abel, different story. So I will just disassociate. 

 

01:10:29    Alyssa

Because you feel like you're riding it out. 

 

01:10:31    Rachel

Yeah. Like what am I going to do here? 

 

01:10:32    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:10:33    Rachel

Can't help you if you won't help yourself. Okay. 

 

01:10:35    Alyssa

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I can't, there's nothing I can do, exactly. And so I'm just here with you, but I'm not really here with you. 

 

01:10:43    Rachel

Yeah, because I hate being here with you. You're making this awful. 

 

01:10:46    Alyssa

I'm not having a good time. 

 

01:10:49    Rachel

Totally, so one thing from this episode that stuck out to me that I want to do is that you went through the book with Sage. I think I'm going to do that with Abel. Like I said, with Nora, I'm pretty much set on what I can pack her. With Abel, I really need some new ideas and I want to bring him into it so that, because then it feels like less of a waste, right? Because if he's showing interest and then he tries it and decides he doesn't like it, to me I'm like, okay, that's fine. I'm gathering data. Like that's whatever. So yeah, I got to get my hands on this book when it drops, which I think it drops on the 27th. 

 

01:11:23    Alyssa

Yeah, by the time this episode airs, it's out. Yeah. I also feel like it was so funny going through it with Sage, he would be like, oh, I want that one. And I would say, oh, do you want, like show me which parts of this lunch. At one point, he goes, not that, that looks a little bit disgusting. A little bit disgusting. 

 

01:11:42    Rachel

So good. So good. 

 

01:11:45    Alyssa

But I felt like it was like exposure to all these foods too. We talked about jicama, which I've never consumed myself. I've never had it. 

 

01:11:53    Rachel

You havent?

 

01:11:53    Alyssa

No. 

 

01:11:54    Rachel

It's good. 

 

01:11:56    Alyssa

Yeah. When I said to him, I was like, we could try that together. I've never had it before and he goes, no thank you. I was like, oh, great. I'll just give it a whirl. I'll report back. 

 

01:12:07    Rachel

It's really good. 

 

01:12:08    Alyssa

Yeah. I mean, I'm down to try these things, but I just felt like in general, it was like exposure to even just like looking at the pictures and talking about these foods that I was jazzed about. Yeah, doing it with him. And then he has some buy -in. 

 

01:12:21    Rachel

Right. 

 

01:12:22    Alyssa

And I said, like, I made his lunch last night, and I was like, hey, buddy, I'm making – we like opened the book and I was like, I'm making this one for your lunch for tomorrow for school. And he was like, oh, I picked that one. And I was like, exactly. 

 

01:12:36    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:12:37    Alyssa

We'll see if he even eats it. But at least there was some like jazz and buy -in. 

 

01:12:42    Rachel

Yeah. Some investment. He's into it. 

 

01:12:44    Alyssa

Exactly. Exactly. And then there are QR codes throughout the book. But yeah, don't hesitate, folks, head out and snag Feeding Littles Lunches. It's so good and so helpful. I just texted my cousin last night who has a two and a half year old and is pregnant and I was like, listen, you need this book, go preorder it now. And I literally took a video of mine and sent it to her and she was like, this is exactly what I need in life. And she was like, I was just venting to my wife about how I cannot pack another same lunch that we always do and then still have my child come home and be like, I just want snacks. Totally. But so head out, snag it. Feeding Littles Lunches. It's so good and out now. 

 

01:13:38    Alyssa

Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.

 

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