When Trying to Be a “Good” Mom Leads to Bad Mental Health With Nancy Reddy
0:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village and today I get to hang out with Nancy Reddy. She's the author of The Good Mother Myth. Her previous books include the poetry collections Pocket Universe and Double Jinx, a winner of the National Poetry Series. I think we need to be screaming this from the rooftops that when we're trying to be a good mom, it actually leads to bad mental health and that there isn't this spot where we're like, okay, check, we're a great mom now. We're going to drop the ball and we're going to make mistakes. And what it means for us as individuals to feel like we're doing enough and being enough is so personalized. I loved this breakdown with Rach after where we got to dive into what this looks like in everyday life for us and how it shows up personally. I'm super stoked to share this episode with you. I think it's a message that so many of us need on repeat. All right, folks, let's dive in.
00:01:05 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:01:25 Alyssa
Are you from Vermont, or your dad just lives here?
00:01:27 Nancy
No, he was a high school teacher, like a high school social studies teacher his whole career and also loved skiing. We grew up skiing in central Pennsylvania and in his last couple of years of teaching started being an instructor and in his retirement, he's now a full -time instructor at Mount Snow.
00:01:48 Alyssa
Oh my gosh, fun.
00:01:50 Nancy
Yeah, so now he's skiing like seven days a week. He's insane, but he loves it.
00:01:55 Alyssa
That's so cool. I mean, what a cool way to stay active and involved and all that jazz, connected.
00:02:01 Nancy
Yeah. No, it's amazing.
00:02:04 Alyssa
Do you have tiny humans?
00:02:06 Nancy
No, they're not tiny. They're 9 and 11.
00:02:09 Alyssa
Okay, so medium, medium humans.
00:02:12 Nancy
Yeah, kind of medium. Yeah, exactly.
00:02:14 Alyssa
Cool. 9 and 11. I have a second book publishing in the fall, Big Kids, Bigger Feelings, that's the like five to 12 -year -old range. So I feel like I've just been so deep in the elementary, like research on elementary kids lately.
00:02:28 Nancy
Yeah. I have two boys and it's been really interesting to me how, and it's, you know, just the weird stuff that you take in about gender, that it's been a surprise to me, especially as my older kid starts to head like towards puberty, adolescence, like, oh, that's a, you know, like we have so many stereotypes about girls at that age. I was like, Oh, he's also got stuff going on too.
00:02:52 Alyssa
A hundred percent.
00:02:53 Nancy
So trying to think about how that shows up for boys as well, for whatever reason was a real surprise to me, even though it shouldn't have been.
00:03:02 Alyssa
Well, I think it makes sense that it was because I think so it just like so deeply rooted in like patriarchal norms that girls are going to go through puberty and be emotional. Yeah. Yeah.
00:03:13 Nancy
Yeah.
00:03:14 Alyssa
Yeah. And like, that boys don't. And that's wild. Like, of course they do. And of course there's hormonal changes.
00:03:22 Nancy
And as we say this, like, I don't believe any of those things, but it was so deep in there.
00:03:27 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:03:27 Nancy
That I have really had to think about it. And I also feel like we have kind of cultural scripts, and they're not great ones, but we at least, like, have cultural scripts for talking about girls and, like, kind of that early stage. And I don't know that we really have them for boys in the same kind of way. You know, I've had some conversations where I've been like, hey, do you ever feel like sometimes you have like a really, as you say, like big feeling and you know, it's like kind of bigger than it warrants and like, you're surprised by that. I was like, I feel that way sometimes. And I think like, it's just, it's hard for, you know, my 11 year old boy to like think about and talk about his feelings in that way.
00:04:03 Alyssa
Yeah. I don't think we have culturally made a space where they can. And I'm thinking of Vanessa and Cara's work in the book, This Is So Awkward. They also have a podcast on that and it really dives into helping make puberty more manageable or understanding it as parents and caregivers and navigating it and all that jazz. And I love how they present that work. I mean, their book, This is So Awkward, I Think, is so good. And then actually my friend, Melissa, is publishing a book this spring, maybe in May. They run the account Sex Positive Families, but their book that's coming out in May is for kids navigating puberty, so it's not written for adults, it's written for kids. And it's so good. I just got an early reader copy. Let me find the name of it. I just got an early reader copy.
00:04:59 Nancy
That sounds great. I mean, that's, yeah. I feel like we got through the little kid years and now I'm like, oh, there's new stuff.
00:05:08 Alyssa
This is the thing, Nancy. It was a huge part of us writing my second book here is that so many people, I think we've been told this story of like, okay, you get through the little years and then there's the teenage years to come, but there's this break where things are chill and nothing's really going on and that's just not true. There's so much that's going on that we just don't talk about. And then people are in it and they're like, wait, why is my nine -year -old a teenager? Like, what is happening? And yeah, it's a doozy. Those elementary school years, I think there just isn't enough discussion around.
00:05:46 Nancy
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I will say they're like, I don't know, they're so much fun. Like, they're just, you know, I love it. But yeah, it's just they're, you know, they're just different. They're changing all the time. It's been it's been a big year for like independence in our house. Sorry.
00:06:03 Alyssa
No, no, it's OK. It just goes from, I think, less physical to more emotional. Right. Like you're navigating so much more of the like psychological cognitive side of things. And you're not like getting up in the middle of the night to feed a baby.
00:06:18 Nancy
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I've been, my older kid is in middle school this year, and I've been very cognizant of like the challenges that he has are increasingly ones that I can't really help him with, at least directly. You know, I can't go to, or it wouldn't be appropriate for me to go to the school. So it's more like, okay, you need to talk to your teacher about blah, blah, blah. Or like, you need to handle this thing with your friends. And that's, I don't know, more complicated maybe.
00:06:48 Alyssa
I think it becomes less about solving where for so long we have solved challenges and issues. And now like stepping into that space where we realize it's actually not our job to solve it and how much discomfort there is in that.
00:07:06 Nancy
Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's fascinating though.
00:07:12 Alyssa
Yeah. So fascinating. Well, I'm super stoked for your book, The Good Mother Myth.
00:07:17 Nancy
Thank you.
00:07:17 Alyssa
Yeah. I mean, just for real. Like, yes, the good mother myth is so real. I was just chatting with Rachel on our team for one of the breakdowns of our podcast episodes and was sharing that we currently have friends who do not have kids, but are a couple living with us for a month. And I didn't have childcare for this month. And I kind of jokingly reached out to them. They live across the country. And I was like, any chance you want to come live with us for a month and help take care of this kid? And they were like, sure. And I was like, wow, okay, sick. And so they moved in. And it has been so incredible to see, first of all, that it turns out four adults to two kids is a phenomenal ratio, and just like how much more capacity I have for everyone around me when we have these extra hands who are like helping us make dinner and clean up and just like we're just doing life together. And I was like, oh, this is it. It's not that we're all just like, it is hard. We are overwhelmed. It's not that we're just like, oh, why do I feel so overwhelmed by this? Why does this feel so hard? We are doing too many things independently in these little like nuclear family bubbles.
00:08:49 Nancy
Yeah. Did it feel hard to ask for that help or did it feel like okay?
00:08:56 Alyssa
It felt hard to accept it because I asked for it jokingly and didn't expect a yes.
00:09:05 Nancy
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:06 Alyssa
And so when they said yes, I was like, oh, wow, okay. And then when they moved in, they're like very communal humans. And so when they moved in, it was even hard to accept things like them being like, hey, let's co -create the meal plan for the week. And then one of them really likes to cook. And so he was like, I'm happy to cook so that when you get off work, you can just hang with the kids and not have to worry about cooking. And then we all eat dinner together. And accepting that has felt hard, because I want to be like, oh, you don't have to. I can do it all.
00:09:42 Nancy
Right? It's so hard to unprogram that, that belief that you can do it all. I think that's so central to this bad idea that we have about motherhood. So Margaret Mead, who I write about, who I came to really love in researching this book. Most people know her as an anthropologist, but she like from her anthropological research did all this, like spent time in these communities where people were doing the kind of shared caregiving that you're talking about. And when she became a mother, she took up that model. I mean, she never lived on her own with her child. They always lived in these composite households. And her daughter wrote a really beautiful book about growing up with her, with her parents who are anthropologists. And she said something at one point that her mother, that Margaret Mead said, something like that she believed it was a gift to other people to ask for help, that people wanted to help. And so asking them for it was actually, I don't know, like a way of involving people, a way of building community. And I think that's such a helpful reframe, that it's not like we're bothering someone or, I don't know, it's so easy to think of that help as like you're accumulating this tally that you're going to have to pay up eventually. And sometimes when you're asking for help, you're also giving someone a chance to feel really meaningfully involved. That feels like risky and weird to say, like when people are going to think of like a selfish person who thinks that my needs. But I do, I like it, and I believe it, and I've tried to take that perspective in.
00:11:30 Alyssa
Well, and I think as a social communal species, we are designed to help and to lean on each other. I don't know that I feel jazzed when people are like, can you help me with this thing? But I do feel, I guess, valued when what I bring to the table can help somebody else. And I think there's like value and worth in contributing and not just contributions as like everyone has to, I see it more as like everyone brings something to the table as a part of community. And so what I bring to the table, when we first moved into the house we're in right now, there is a family that lives next door that has four young kids and a stay -at -home mom. And she, the very first week we were here, made Irish soda bread and brought it over. And I was like, oh my gosh, thank you so much. That's so kind. And just so you know, I'm never going to make you a homemade food situation and bring it over. This is not the neighbor that I am. But if you, any time, want to drop your kids off and go do something or run errands or send to our house for dinner or whatever, that is how I show up in this world. Like, we'll take care of your kids, we'll never make you Irish soda bread.
00:13:01 Nancy
I think that's so helpful to just be willing to say, like, this is actually what I can do. I think it also gives other people space to say that for themselves as well. I think of someone who in talking about hosting and some of the anxiety that similarly can feel about hosting. She's like, you know, I just never, I don't cook. I'm not going to be the person whose house you come to for delicious foods. I'll probably have chips and dip. She's like, but it will be clean. I will make you feel super welcome. We're going to have fun. For me, that was so freeing to kind of think like, oh, I don't actually have to do all of the things, right? I can figure out what my contribution is. And do that.
00:13:45 Alyssa
Yeah, it's so funny. Actually, with our friends who moved in for this month, I said to them, I was like, listen, I'm never going to ask you like, do you want a glass of water? Do you need a cup of tea or whatever? And what you can do is take anything from my cupboards at any point. Help yourself to anything like you need an extra blanket, snag it from the pile in the corner. I'm not going to be like, oh, were you warm enough sleeping last night? Like, I am not going to stay on top of those things. It's just not how my brain works. But feel free to move in and like share whatever you need. And like, that's how I show up as a host. And I used to, I think, feel guilt about that, that like I'm not the person that when you're at my house, I'm going to be like, oh, do you need a cup of water? Are you thirsty? Do you need a snack? Whatever. In my head, I'm just like, if they needed water, they'd snag a glass from the cabinet and pour a glass of water. Like they can fully just go into my cupboards and they definitely know that. And in reality was like, oh, no, people don't just do that all the time. And realize that for me to feel good about this as how I show up, I needed to say, hey, help yourself to anything that you want.
00:14:56 Nancy
That always feels to me also like a really, I don't know, to me, that's like a special, like an entry into like, there's a mark of a close friendship, I think. I mean, I think about some of the some of the good friends that we have who, I'm like, yes, please. I love that you are just pouring yourself a cup of coffee right now or that you're rummaging through the pantry. Please grab whatever you want. That actually makes me really feel happy and feel like you feel at home here.
00:15:22 Alyssa
Yeah, 100%. I will say I grew up in a household where we were the community landing space. I'm one of five kids and we, they were like kids who had a hard home life or whatever, like always landed at our house. And it was just the vibe. We didn't lock our doors. Everybody knew that. We were a place you could crash, you could grab food, you could whatever. And it is now just like, for me, it isn't actually a marker of like, we're really close, although I'm glad that maybe some people are receiving it that way. For me, it's just like, I could have met you today at the grocery store, and I'm like, oh, you need, want to come over, like, come on, and like, take whatever you need. I just know I'm not going to offer you a warm cup of tea.
00:16:13 Nancy
Yeah.
00:16:14 Alyssa
Unless you make it.
00:16:14 Nancy
But I would be happy if you had it for yourself. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:19 Alyssa
Yeah. One of the things that I think is really rad about your work and kind of a through line here is that parenting and mothering is so joyful and amazing and cool. And for me, it's not the hard part. The parenting, the raising of the humans, the being with the humans isn't the hard part. It's the doing life while raising the humans that's the hard part. And when I, when those other things are stripped away and it's like, Oh, I don't have to do any of that. We actually, I was presenting at a conference in Paris this fall and we made it a family trip and we did a week in Austria where I had studied abroad when I was in high school a few decades ago. And it was the most vacationy- vacation we've had since having kids. And we had like no real agenda, we were staying in an Airbnb and it just, there was like an ease of life and we were like, oh, because we're not trying to do anything else. A lot of the times when we're on vacation, we're like in a household of like family and then we're trying to fit in like, oh, we're going to, you know what, I want to go out to lunch with my mom. Can you take the kids this afternoon so I can like grab lunch with my parents or whatever? And just like fitting in life stuff. And maybe even still answering this work email or I'm on the beach and I'm like, oh right, we have to schedule his dentist appointment or whatever. And when we were in Austria, we just fully unplugged from our life at home and got to hang out as a foursome. And I was like, oh, this is lovely. I actually really like you people when I'm not trying to do life.
00:18:09 Nancy
I mean, and it's such a gift, but it also can be so challenging to really separate in that way, you know, to not always be doing a little bit of kind of everything at once, like parenting, but also thinking about your work email, and also thinking about the laundry, and also, you know, trying to figure out where you can have your dinner, like just all of that is a lot to manage.
00:18:33 Alyssa
Yeah, so much to manage. When you talk about being a good mom, like what comes up for you around that. What were your narratives around being a good mom?
00:18:48 Nancy
Yeah. I mean, I think before I had my kids, I had a lot of ideas that were so deeply ingrained that I don't think I could have even really recognized them. And also how wild they are and how contradictory. I really believed, and we'd been living in Madison then, in Wisconsin, which is a very kind of crunchy college town. And I spent a lot of years kind of like watching the moms around me, like kind of studying up when I'd see women at the farmer's market and the coffee shop and whatnot. And I had absorbed this idea that motherhood could be both natural, like look at these beautiful kind of blissed out women with these babies in the baby carrier, and they're so happy and they're just kind of going about their life, but with this cuddly baby with them, it could be totally natural. And that there was a way to do it right, that the right way to do it was with the baby carrier and the breastfeeding and the homemade baby food and the co -sleeping and the cloth diapers and the whole ... I mean, it's way too much, right? It's crazy. But I had taken that in so deeply that I don't think I could really articulate it, or recognize that it doesn't make a lot of sense. And it also isn't necessarily who I am, or especially who my first baby was. He actually did not want to be attached to me at every moment.
00:20:28 Alyssa
Same with my first.
00:20:29 Nancy
I remember so clearly, and I can't remember if this is in the book or not, but I remember so clearly taking him at probably like, I don't know, six weeks or something to the natural parenting store where I spent a lot of time for a baby -wearing fitting appointment because they were like, we can da -da -da. I remember I took in, I had bought a Moby Wrap, I had an ergo, I had all of the things and they were like, we'll figure out how to help you with this. There was this woman being like, oh, your baby's going to be so happy. He's going to be so close to you. And she tied the thing real tight on me and kind of like shoved my baby in and he immediately like, you know, arched his back out and was like just not having it. And now that's very funny, but like at the time it really was crushing for me because I was like, what kind of a mother am I that my baby like doesn't want to be close to me? And you know what? Like he was a baby who wanted to like kind of chill on the floor. Like he was very happy actually, if I would take him places and like bring a baby blanket and a toy and he would kind of like wiggle and chill out. But that was not the image that I had absorbed of what it was supposed to look like.
00:21:38 Alyssa
Yeah. And now you're not a good mom because it's not what it's looking like.
00:21:41 Nancy
Exactly. Exactly. And I did get some weird because I would take... I was in grad school then. And so I would take him sometimes to like meetings with me and every once in a while someone would be like, what's your baby doing on the floor? And I'd be like, I don't know, man. This is what he wants. I promise you it's not going to be better for anybody if I pick him up and try to like you know, cuddle him. But it took me a long time to realize like, no, this is actually like, he is his own person, right? This is not a generic baby that needs XYZ that like, you know, the book or whoever said, like, this is a particular person who relates to the world in a particular way. And he's like, he's super happy there on the floor, like, I'm gonna let him be. At 11, he's actually way more cuddly than he was a baby, which is very funny.
00:22:20 Alyssa
Oh, that is funny. So many pictures. In fact, one of my good friends would take pictures that we would send them or share, whatever, that had Sage, my oldest, when he was a newborn, where he would just be like pushing, like in my arms, but like pushing off as far as he could get. And she would just like screenshot and just like circle this like, he's getting as much space as he can. He's like, I know that I can't crawl and get myself where I want to go. So technically I need you to carry me someplace, but can we touch as little as possible while I do it. And then my daughter who would climb back inside my womb if she could, like loves touch, loves that pressure, loves that closeness. And it's why the idea of like one size fits all for anything parenting is just bullshit because they aren't generic babies. They're humans and they're their own people. When we're looking at this like good that mom ideal, one thing that you had said is just like the, I was all in on the cloth diapering and the whatever, and this is that there was a right way to do it. And not a right way to do it for this kid, but that there was a right way to do it, period. And I was just sharing with our friends who are here, they were just asking like, you know, the transition from two to one kids, like what has shifted for you? And I was like, honestly, the thing that has been the biggest shift in this is that there were so many things I thought I cared about with my first, that by the time we got to the second, I was like, oh, actually, those were all things that I thought were important. But then as I look back on it, I'm like, oh, no, I actually don't care about that thing. I don't care personally if we're all sitting down together at the dinner table. That's not something that matters to me, it turns out. It's something I was told would make me a good parent and what I should do and would help my child thrive. But it's actually not something that matters to me. And that meal is the hardest for my sensory sensitive child at the end of the day where he's fried. And being at a table with other humans is his nightmare at that time of day. And we tried to make it happen for so long. And finally I was like, yeah, I don't care. And now like accepting things like that and really dialing down into what do I care about, what does feel important to me has definitely shifted. And yeah, I think a marker for that for me was like anytime I found myself constantly moving a boundary that I'd set or being like, okay, we could do this this way this time and the next time we'll do it the other way. I wouldn't do that with, say, a car seat. I wasn't like, oh, you don't wanna go in your car seat? That's fine. You can just roam around in the van while we drive. No, that was a boundary that really felt important to me from a safety perspective. And even if he didn't like it, I was gonna hold it. And there are so many that I found myself constantly moving. And as I look back, I'm like, oh, because that didn't actually matter to me. I didn't think it was really important. I just thought I was supposed to think it was important.
00:25:38 Nancy
It's that supposed to that's so... It's so tricky. I think I've really tried and I still have to consciously work on it, but anytime I hear that should in my own head to think like, wait, who says, like, is that really mine? Are there things that have stuck for you? Like what are the things that you really do? And I think it's easy to talk about practices, right? Like wearing a car seat or being in a car seat, wearing a seatbelt, you know what I I mean, I don't know, the things that we do are reflective of our values as well, right? So like, are there things that have stuck for you as you've shucked things like dinner? I mean, I'm sure you're still eating dinner, but you know what I mean, the pressure to sit down at family dinner.
00:26:19 Alyssa
Sure, sure. Yeah, there are definitely things that have stuck. I think the biggest thing for us that has stuck is around like sleep and supporting them through sleep, which doesn't mean no crying for us, but it does mean for me, it doesn't feel comfortable for me to put a kid in the room and be like, deuces, see you in the morning, cry, figure it out, put yourself back to sleep. Both of my humans are very different sleepers. Sage is environment -specific, and when his environment is on point, he can slay sleep. He actually doesn't want someone around. he, just the other day, my mother -in -law was doing his bedtime and she came downstairs and was like, yeah, I was in there like, you know, like rubbing his hair after I like sang to him and he said, Nana, you can go now. And she was like, oh, okay.
00:27:17 Nancy
But that's a kid who knows what he needs and will articulate it, which I think is really beautiful.
00:27:25 Alyssa
Yeah. Whereas like my daughter wants so much closeness and proximity all the time, including in sleep. And she can fall asleep anywhere and like at any time or whatever, which he never could. But then in terms of like going back to sleep or staying asleep, she wants closeness and proximity and touch and he does not. And so for us, it was really like figuring out what their needs were and meeting them there. And that's something I still feel is like core for us, is around sleep. And I feel like sleep's one thing that changes. So it's not that we did the same exact approach to sleep, but it really was like just meeting them within who they are for sleep, if that makes sense.
00:28:13 Nancy
It does. And I think at the core of that, it sounds like sleep is really important for your family.
00:28:20 Alyssa
Oh, I'm not the person I want to be Nancy without it.
00:28:26 Nancy
Yeah, we got a dog maybe two years ago, and at first he was like barking all the time in the middle of the night. So there was like a week where we were like up with his barking, and I was like a shell of myself. And I remember thinking like, oh my goodness, I went around for years like this, like no wonder. And it actually really, I mean, it was horrible, but survivable obviously, but it did help me to have some kind of compassion for myself and for what a hard time I had when my kids were babies. It's like, no wonder you felt a little unhinged, like you were up every 45 minutes for months at a time.
00:29:00 Alyssa
You were sleep deprived.
00:29:01 Nancy
That's not actually a way to like, yeah, which I mean, I think some people can handle that better than I can. My husband is better with sleep deprivation than I am, but it really, it makes me unhinged. Yeah. So I don't know, sleep is important in our house too.
00:29:15 Alyssa
Yeah. It's so important. Actually, I have a friend who like their kids just will like fall asleep and then they'll wake up and have like a snack at 11 o 'clock sometimes and like it totally works for her. Like she's fine with this. And I was like, oh, I would be rage filled. Like I think for me, not only is sleep important, but being able to be like, I'm off right now, right? Like of course kids will wake up and get sick or whatever, but to not know if at any point these kids are going to be up. I would still feel so on all the time in a way that would make me feel rage.
00:29:55 Nancy
Yeah. I mean, I feel like the thread here, though, is that parenting, mothering is about really a relationship. Who are you? What are your needs? And who are these people? And I think that feels very obvious to say, but for me, at least, that's been a pretty revolutionary kind of a shift to go from thinking, these are all the things I have to do if I'm going to be a good mom. And they're all things that are kind of externally determined. They're all for someone else, whether it's a specific someone or an imagined someone who I think has an idea of me. And that's very different than saying like, what does our family actually care about? What matters to us? What do my kids need as people? What do I need as a person? I think there's often like no space for mothers to have their own needs and yeah I don't know. And I think it also looks really different in different families, right? And I think that requires some understanding of that perspective that in some houses that's what bedtime looks like, you know? And in other houses it's going to be different and there's not a better or worse, you know?
00:31:05 Alyssa
Correct. And like I have a friend of mine who's autistic and she was over at the house and hanging out and I have loop earplugs that I wear almost every night from like four to about 8 p.m. and I realized for myself, yeah, they're like my lifeline, I realized for myself that one of those things that has maintained as like a core value for me is that I want my kids to get to exist in this space and be kids, which means sometimes they're going to be a little loud. Sometimes they're going to be crying and have hard feelings, like that they get to be humans in this space as well. And I also realized that by the end of the day, I'm like, sound sensitivity is one for me. By the end of the day, I'm like, I've heard too many sounds. And so when it's like, we're making dinner and my daughter's crying because she wants to be touching me and my son is riding around on some sort of vehicle that he is pretending is a firetruck and he's going whe-ooo, whe-ooo, whe-ooo, I want to murder somebody. And so if I can put in these loop earplugs and just hear things all a little less, I can show up more as the parent I want to be. And so my friend was over and she's also sound sensitive. And she said, she was like, oh, I only thought that autistic humans were thinking about like, what accommodations do I need to exist in this world around other people? And she was like, I think it's so cool that you're like, yeah, no, I need these loop earplugs to be more of the mom I want to be. And just allowing that to be true, that this is a need that I have and also this is a value I have for them. And how do these two marry each other?
00:32:59 Nancy
Yeah. I mean, I think that's really profound, right? To think like we both need what we need and like something has to give or, you know, like there has to be a way of literally an accommodation, as you say, in order to make that all come together. That's so smart. I think that I mean, I did not realize how sensitive I am to sound until I had babies. And I think, I don't know, if I had – it did not occur to me until years afterwards when someone else was like, oh, these are the headphones I wear when my baby cries. I was like, I think I really thought I was like supposed to experience that at full volume, full intensity.
00:33:33 Alyssa
Yeah, sure.
00:33:34 Nancy
I mean, I used to sleep when we were in, and we did sleep train with my, probably both of them, but definitely my first one is the one I remember, which was like essential and a great choice for our family.
00:33:45 Alyssa
Great.
00:33:47 Nancy
But I remember sleeping with the monitor next to my head. Like I felt like I needed to experience the – so like why was I doing that? And it wasn't until someone else was like, oh, no, I wear these headphones. And I thought, oh, my goodness, I could have just – like I could have still – I mean, if he had really needed, I could have gone across the hall. Like I would have heard it or just like going about the day. It's such a moderate kind of accommodation that I didn't – genuinely didn't know about but also probably didn't have the sense of like taking my own needs seriously enough to even seek it out. And I think that's a kind of interesting thing. And I also just feel like anytime someone shares their story of like, this is how I manage my needs, it kind of makes space for everybody else too. So I appreciate that.
00:34:39 Alyssa
Yeah. I think it really falls in line with that like motherhood martyrdom piece of like, I'm supposed to suffer through this in some capacity, right? Like, I have to hear that cry at full volume or being a good mom means not putting in the earplugs when your kid's crying. It's like, well, they're allowed to. The other option would be that I try and make them stop crying, which for me would look like emotional suppression. And that's not in my value system and really not what I'm to do. I want her to know that she gets to feel disappointed that in this moment when I am cooking this food, I can't hold her because I know how she works and she's gonna reach across and touch that pan, right? Like I want her to know that she's allowed to feel disappointed here and that I can handle her disappointment. Handling her disappointment doesn't mean for me that I have hear it at full volume.
00:35:43 Nancy
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it also means that it's kind of like her responsibility in some way to learn how to manage that, which I think is really helpful. You know, it's not you either trying to take it on and manage it for her or you trying to tell her like, shove it down and stop it. I think that's a, I don't know, that feels to me like a real sea change in terms of how people talk about parenting now, kind of trying to, trying to let our kids sit with their unhappy, unhappiness, or whatever their feelings are.
00:36:13 Alyssa
It's so hard.
00:36:15 Nancy
Oh yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I don't think it's an easy thing to do. I think it's useful.
00:36:21 Alyssa
It's so hard. I just shared a real, I just shared a reel, I was, we had a good hard getting out of the house for school day and my son did not want to go to school. He didn't want to leave. And he was feeling sad with our friends here. He felt like there was a hate happening and he wanted to be a part of it. And so we're on the way to school and I'm driving him, it's just quiet. And I, in the rear view mirror, see just a single tear going down his cheek and it's just like heartbreaking. There's something about the silent cry that like really does me in, where I'm like, it's not like you're screaming at me, it's that you're just really genuinely sad and oh, it breaks me. And I wanted to rescue him from it, right? Like everything inside of me was like, I can bring him home. He can hang out with his sister and our friends for the day. Like he doesn't have to feel sad. And instead chose to frigging practice what I preach and allow him to practice feeling sad and to know. And I told him, I was like, I asked him, I said, buddy, do you want to know something so cool about feelings? And he, with his like tear going down his cheek, was like mm -hmm. And I said, something so cool about feelings is that none of our feelings stay for a long time. That there have been times where we're playing and we're feeling happy or excited, and then after a little while we stop feeling happy and we might feel curious, or we feel something else and it looks like right now you're feeling sad, and you won't feel sad for a long time. And then I'm so proud of you for letting your body feel sad because it's really uncomfortable for us to let ourselves feel hard things. And it won't stay forever. And I love you. And that is so much harder for me to do than to just be like, yeah, we're going home. You can have a home day.
00:38:22 Nancy
Yeah. But in the long run, right? I feel like that's the thing that is so much harder to keep in mind. It's like, this is all a long game, right? Like both in good ways, right? You're like, hey, I did this thing. And also like when you mess up, right? Like, well, it is a long game. Like I snapped, I'm gonna apologize. And then we're gonna like try to do better, you know?
00:38:42 Alyssa
100%, absolutely. And that I think for me is the shift to being a good mom. But I also wonder with the culture shift to like let your kids feel their feelings without the acknowledgement that we as adults have nervous systems and we might need things like loop earplugs or we might need things like support or whatever, just to like let your kid feel their feelings and they get to cry and they get to whatever. Without the adult support piece, I feel like a lot of parents feel like they're constantly failing because their kid's feeling for a little bit and then they snap because they hit their capacity of stimuli because kids are loud and draining.
00:39:24 Nancy
And I think, I mean, I think especially when your kids are little, I mean, this is still true to some extent with my kids who are a little bit older, but I think especially when your kids are little, you are really so biologically and hormonally tied to them that I think that a crying kid is really viscerally upsetting in a way that is hard to handle. And I think -
00:39:48 Alyssa
Totally.
00:39:48 Nancy
I don't know. I think that's part of to be, I don't know, a little spicy. That's where I think some of the probably misrepresentations, but I think it's pretty common of kind of gentle parenting go awry,
00:40:01 Alyssa
Agreed
00:40:01 Nancy
Where it's really about like, okay, where it seems to be kind of like the parent has to be perfect and totally patient and totally you know, that if you like, express frustration with your kid, you're, I don't know what making them responsible for your feelings, and I would much rather try to like show up as myself with my kids, and I do sometimes have to say like, I am feeling really frustrated right now, and I am walking away for a minute, you know, like in the hopes that I'll model something. I mean, in the hopes of like, I'm modeling something, but also just cause like legit, I cannot hear like this, you know, sniping between the brothers or whatever it is anymore. Like I am asserting my own need to not like be part of this conversation anymore, whatever it is. And I feel like there's, there are kind of cultural messages out there right now that would say like, that's the wrong thing to do. And I don't think it is. I think that our kids need to know that we are people as well. And we need to feel like that's okay to show up as ourselves.
00:41:06 Alyssa
100%. And as a human who both has done research on emotional development in kids and just lives in that research world, what we actually know is that being able to name your feelings is very beneficial for kids because whether you name it or not, they feel it, right? So if you are trying to stand there and act like, okay, I've got this, I'm cool, calm, collected, but inside you are raging, their nervous system is aware of what your nervous system is doing. And then they will subconsciously try and make your thing stop or feel responsible for versus there's a giant difference between naming your feelings and a child feeling responsible for your feelings. When you say, I'm feeling frustrated and I need to walk away from this, you're saying, I'm feeling frustrated and I'm responsible for my frustration and my regulation. You don't have to stop what you're doing for my regulation. I'm going to take control over that and I'm having this feeling. And there's a huge difference between that and I'm frustrated because you guys won't stop fighting with each other and I need you to get out of here. I need you to take a walk. I need you to change is different than I need this for myself so I'm going to take care of my needs.
00:42:27 Nancy
Though I do the sniping, especially lately for whatever reason does kind of kill me.
00:42:32 Alyssa
A hundred percent.
00:42:33 Nancy
But you can't make them stop it. If I could, they would already have stopped. Yeah. I just think my my older kid especially is so is so emotionally attuned and so thoughtful that he really will kind of hone in and be like, Are you okay? Are you okay? What's going on? And so and so especially with him, I do have to say like, Well, sorry, no, I'm thinking about something at work. And I'm frustrated about that. Or like, actually, no, I'm fine. I just am like a little distracted. Or like, actually, yeah, I am feeling kind of frustrated or sad or whatever, right now. But like, that's not you're like, thank you. It's really thoughtful of you to ask. But like, you know, that's not your job to handle it. Because you're right trying to just be like, no, no, no, I'm fine. Doesn't work. He's smarter than that. I think that our I don't know, we often don't give our kids credit for is like, smart and tuned in as they actually are.
00:43:31 Alyssa
Totally. And one of our we have the nine sensory systems and one of them is neuroception and that is what, he sounds like a neuroceptive sensitive human. I call them our Spidey sense kids where they like have those Spidey senses like, what is the energy in the room? What's happening? Right? And they are so attuned. And so even with my Spidey sense kid, even if my face just changes, he's like, what's happening? or like tone plays a big role, or if I'm annoyed with my husband and we are just like moving through the space where we're like cohabitating, but trying not to talk to each other because if I do talk to him, I'm gonna say something really sarcastic and snippy and rude because I'm not regulated enough to talk to him. My son's aware of it, right? Like he notices that when we can just name it of like, yeah, you're not bonkers for noticing this are feeling it. For them, it helps them recognize that their reality is true, right? Like, yeah, you did notice that. That is happening. You don't have to fix it or change it.
00:44:41 Nancy
Exactly.
00:44:43 Alyssa
It's okay for me to feel this. And yeah, I'm feeling this.
00:44:47 Nancy
Yeah. And that's so helpful. So smart.
00:44:49 Alyssa
Yeah, thanks. Uh, I am super stoked that you wrote this and that we get to have this conversation because so much of, I think, the parenting landscape now is full of humans who are trying to do it perfectly and be a good mom. And they already are and they don't feel like it. And I think we need to get down and dirty with like, what does that even really mean?
00:45:21 Nancy
Yeah. I mean, I think that it's so interesting to me how this image of the ideal of the perfect mother that we have evolves over time. I mean, I think even my kids were born in 2013 and 2015, and even since then, the conversations have changed, the ideals have changed, some of that in really good ways, I think. I feel like I see a lot of people talking about maternal mental health in ways that I did not see when I was a new mom and would have been really helpful to me if there had been more kind of open conversation about the range of challenges and kind of how to handle that. But also I think, you know, those pressures, it just evolves, you know, and I think, you know, in the book I look historically, you know, and I think it's just in each generation we have kind of a different set of ideals that shape us. And those ideals really are never about what's actually best for moms and babies and families. They're almost always shaped by outside pressures, by cultural imperatives, by economic anxieties, you know, all the things that are happening in the world that then, I don't know, moms end up kind of of answering for in various ways.
00:46:40 Alyssa
Yeah, I 100 % agree and thank you. Thank you for writing it and diving into the research and doing that heavy lifting for us all to continue to have this conversation. Folks, you can snag The Good Mother Myth: Unlearning Our Bad Ideas About How to be a Good Mom wherever books are sold. Thank you, Nancy.
00:47:03 Nancy
Thanks so much, Alyssa.
00:47:04 Alyssa
Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.
00:47:09
[Music]
00:47:16 Alyssa
So we're doing the candida diet, Zach and I both, for yeast. And my doctor is basically like, listen, this is really intense. What I want you to focus on is added sugar, like cane sugar, any of that, it's cut out for eight weeks. Alcohol and gluten or yeast are like the top ones. And so we're gluten -free, yeast -free.
00:47:42 Rachel
And alcohol -free.
00:47:43 Alyssa
Alcohol -free, sugar -free.
00:47:46 Rachel
Okay. Does your doctor have you on any supplements?
00:47:50 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:47:52 Rachel
Like what?
00:47:53 Alyssa
So I did, well, I did boric acid at first just to like help clear the system. And we both did Diflucan to kickstart. And then now I'm taking a probiotic that's like specifically supposed to be for vaginal and urinary tract. And then after these eight weeks, then there's like a herbal protocol.
00:48:25 Rachel
Okay, I support.
00:48:27 Alyssa
Thank you. But that's what we're focusing on right now. And she gave us the whole food approach guidelines of red foods, never, the orange and the green. So we're trying to do that as much as possible, even outside of just these. On the red foods is caffeine, and I just can't do that in this season of life. On the red foods is dairy, and I also was just like, I'd rather have a yeast infection every day than give up caffeine and dairy right now with everything else. So that is where we are.
00:49:01 Rachel
100%. I can't, I don't know what would make me give up caffeine. Nothing that I've encountered thus far in life. So..
00:49:11 Alyssa
Well, and it's just like triggering, like food stuff is so.
00:49:15 Rachel
It sucks.
00:49:16 Alyssa
It's so much. It sucks because I want to, there's a part of me that's like, eat whatever you want. Every food is a good food. And then there's a part of me that's like, okay, maybe not for your body right now. Like maybe that's not true in this moment right now for your body. And I hate that.
00:49:41 Rachel
I also hate it.
00:49:46 Alyssa
It's been nice to have Zach's support, that like we're doing it together. It feels way more accessible.
00:49:50 Rachel
100%. Because then you're like meal planning and snack planning together. This is like what's hard for me is like, and Cody really does eat gluten -free almost always, but I struggle because it's not always just gluten for me. If I'm in a flare, then I have to get rid of nightshades, and nightshades are in everything. It's just annoying. A, I don't want to think about this crap, and B, I'm just annoyed at my body. It's like, hey, have you ever thought of not having autoimmune diseases? Has that felt like an option for you? Because it would make things so much easier. Yeah, I just don't want to think about food all the time.
00:50:28 Alyssa
I don't. I don't want to think about it ever, actually.
00:50:30 Rachel
It's so annoying.
00:50:31 Alyssa
I don't care about it. In fact, when Max and Clem were here, Max really likes to cook and he makes really delicious food. And he was saying that's something that he really values, quality in food in terms of how it tastes. And he's so taste -seeking, he loves to try different flavors and all that. And I was like, oh, that's so interesting. I literally eat to stay alive. and it is rare that I'm even craving some sort of meal. I'm just like, oh, if literally food was just taken care of, every night he'd be like, how do you guys feel about-- when we'd meal plan together this thing or that thing? And I'm like, Max, literally anything. I don't care. I just do not care about it. I don't want to think about it. And so now having to really think about it sucks.
00:51:24 Rachel
How is Zach doing without sandwiches?
00:51:29 Alyssa
He did say yesterday. He was like... We were both like, alcohol has felt so easy and fine, like whatever.
00:51:35 Rachel
Totally.
00:51:37 Alyssa
It is the gluten and the sugar. Also we started this as I went into this period, and so I'm like, what a terrible time.
00:51:46 Rachel
Yeah. I don't know if I know anybody who loves sandwiches the way that Zach does, so I'm curious as to what he's...
00:51:51 Alyssa
I know, and just like gluten in general, right? Like every morning I would have eggs, he'll have an egg sandwich, right? Like he just loves bread. And so that definitely like the gluten piece has been the hardest. And we've gone gluten -free before in our lives where I was having something. This was back like 2015, maybe like 10 years ago. So I was having something body -wise and I went gluten -free and it was super helpful for me. And we did it together where we, Zach would only do it at home. I did it for like a two -month period where I was fully gluten -free. And then we just went to like at home, we didn't have gluten. And then if we were out, whatever. And his body also really liked that. So I think that this will be a good reset for both of us. I think for both of us, it causes inflammation, but we love it, so we do it anyway. And I forget how it feels to not be inflamed when I have just been eating gluten as a part of my life. And same with sugar, actually. Like, same thing. And I feel like we've just gotten into habits of like, the kids would go down and we'd have ice cream and hang out and things like that. And it's like just breaking those habits.
00:53:10 Rachel
Yeah. It's hard to because -
00:53:12 Alyssa
What do we snack on now?
00:53:13 Rachel
I know. because it becomes like a dopamine hit too. At least for me, once the kids are down, I'm like, I need a dopamine hit.
00:53:20 Alyssa
Yeah. And I don't want to sit and scroll next to him.
00:53:23 Rachel
Totally.
00:53:23 Alyssa
I'm like, give me that Facebook marketplace.
00:53:27 Rachel
Totally. Yeah. No. Food stuff sucks. What's the timeline for you guys?
00:53:35 Alyssa
What's cool is that this ends right before we go to North Carolina in April, which is great because then we'll be in the house with my mom and my dad and one of my brothers. We're all staying together and we're visiting my other brother down there and his family. And so when we're in like a big group like that where no one else is gluten -free and all this, it's harder because we'll like meal plan together and stuff. So that'll be nice that it'll be done then. But that's when it's done.
00:54:08 Rachel
So you got a little bit to go.
00:54:10 Alyssa
Yeah oh we're on week one.
00:54:13 Rachel
Yes buddy?
00:54:14 Abel
Can I have a cookie package?
00:54:14 Rachel
You can have a cookie package
00:54:16 Abel
Because I didn't have any. I only had one pop. So can I just have one?
00:54:17 Rachel
One cookie package. So we're trying to do like a post Valentine's Day sugar reduction
00:54:32 Alyssa
Yeah same
00:54:34 Rachel
Yeah I hate that holidays are so candy focused me too
00:54:40 Alyssa
Me too. I was just thinking like we have Easter coming up and whatever.
00:54:44 Rachel
I'd love a culture shift around that.
00:54:46 Alyssa
Yeah, same. Same. Also, because for one of my kids, sugar affects them just in such a bigger way than the other one.
00:54:55 Rachel
Umm hmm, Yeah.
00:54:59 Alyssa
Who are we chatting about today?
00:55:01 Rachel
We are chatting about Nancy Reddy. This is the myth, The Good Mother Myth.
00:55:08 Alyssa
Hmm. Yeah. And what a myth it is.
00:55:12 Rachel
Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting, just like, as I was listening to the two of you talk and thinking about my own ideas about motherhood and how they've shifted so, so much since having Nora. And then like a huge paradigm shift when I had Abel. And also just like how for me as they've gotten older, obviously like I want to be a good parent, but I, when they're little, decisions feel so like life and death almost, like the feeding, the sleeping, like it all feels so big and consuming. And now I feel like I still have to make hard decisions as a parent, but I don't find myself getting caught up in this like binary way of thinking of like, if I do this, I'm a good mom. If I don't do that, I'm a bad mom. it's all a lot more like nuanced and gray and based on like my capacity and the kids capacity and also just the knowledge that like we won't always thrive and like early on in parenthood I felt like I need to like breastfeed on demand and make all the right sleeping choices and respond to every cry appropriately in order for my baby to thrive and now I'm like yeah I just need to like be present and be in relationship with these kids and take it as it comes and just kind of respond to the child in front of me.
00:56:43 Alyssa
I was thinking about this and like how much regulations which are so outdated from the AAP, American Academy of Pediatrics, we know it like takes a long time for anything to shift there. How much that puts pressure on, you have like no screens under the age of two unless you're sitting right next to them and here's what they're watching. And it's like, there's a difference between they're sitting on a screen for eight hours and I'm putting on the show while I make dinner and I don't care that my baby's eight months old, it's captivating for them while they sit in front of that TV and I get dinner ready and then I'm a kind, present parent. Or the like, no sugar under the age of two or whatever, it's like, cool, that was really easy for me with Sage and he was the firstborn. And now with Mila and we're like at kid birthday parties and things, and yeah, she's getting one of these cupcakes that everybody's getting and I don't care. And I don't think this is gonna ruin her for life.
00:57:41 Rachel
I think that's that right there is like the, yeah. Yeah, it's not gonna ruin them.
00:57:46 Alyssa
I feel like in general with like the popularization, if that's a word, of parenting discourse. There's this idea that you're just like in a blink, make or break, gonna ruin your relationship or ruin a kid or ruin their gut health or ruin something. And it's so much harder than that. Like it is so much harder than that. I'm like, yeah, this muffin or this cupcake that she's having, it is not going to ruin her relationship with food or her gut health or whatever the heck is happening here. Or I feel like for me, there was a big shift from kid one to kid two, both experiencing two very different humans and just how little was in my control then at that point. I care so much less about things. And when I just look around at our villagers and and the incredible attentive, aware questions they'll ask that can often be filled with so much anxiety. And I'm like, oh, you're killing it. Like that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that you told your kid you're okay. Like it doesn't matter.
00:59:07 Rachel
Yeah, it's so, I also had a huge shift from Nora to Abel. Like I remember with Nora, I would like research the shows that I would allow her to watch to make sure that like they were like that the frames didn't shift too quickly because I read that like that was really bad for kids so I'm like so real researching like what shows like have really slow transitions and like whatever and then with Abel who was a scream crier um in the car he had we had a DVD player at his car seat when he was like three months old. And it was the same episode of Baby Einstein. And
00:59:49 Alyssa
I remember this.
00:59:51 Rachel
Yeah. And that was like my lifeline for getting in the car because like, I had to take Nora to preschool, we had places we had to go. And I would have been appalled and would have been judgmental of myself. If I had had three month old Nora watching a screen.
01:00:10 Alyssa
Yep. And in fact, I just had like a parenting influencer pop into my head, who like every time shares her kid watching a screen has to like justify like, and it's educational. And here's the whatever. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's so not the case here. I'm like, you know what, your sister's napping, you're gonna go have rest time in your room. Sagey gets his iPad for rest time. And he knows the shows that he's like allowed to watch. It's not that we've like vetted them necessarily for a quickness of whatever. But I'm like, I'm fine with the content for the most part. And if he will just scroll and pick something on YouTube, and he knows if he's never seen it before to just ask. And I'm just at this point vetting for content.
01:00:55 Rachel
Same.
01:00:55 Alyssa
And that's every single day when I have both of the kids. That's what happens. Rest time, he lays in his room and watches a screen, and I get an hour of not parenting.
01:01:08 Rachel
Also, I'm not looking to educate my kids through their screen time.
01:01:13 Alyssa
No, that is not where I'm trying to do education.
01:01:16 Rachel
Its not my goal.
01:01:16 Alyssa
No, although thank you, Miss Rachel, because my kids have learned so much from Miss Rachel, not a lie. It's so interesting, Beans with Screens is like so much more interactive than Sagey ever was. Like he would just like sit and watch and he learns the stuff and he would say it later but he's never going to be the kid in the class with his hand in the air raising his hand volunteering his thoughts in the moment and she will never put her hand down I'd imagine and so when like Miss Rachel's on she like it my mom remarked when we were just there, how she knows the next song that's coming. And I was like, that speaks more to the amount of time she's watched this video than anything else. But yeah, she does. And will like do the hand gestures and all the things. I'm like, she's learning stuff. So thanks, Miss Rachel. That wasn't my goal. I mean, for learning to happen via screens, but it is.
01:02:20 Rachel
I mean, Blippi taught Abel how to count. So like he was learning, but the reason that we watched Blippi was because he liked it. And it gave me, it gave me time to just, are you thinking about what I shared in the book?
01:02:35 Alyssa
Yeah.
01:02:36 Rachel
So my, my catchphrase during Abel's infancy and toddlerhood, which for those of you listening who don't know much about Abel, he is a sensory sensitive, highly expressive child who cried for much of his infancy and still cries a lot, but as a toddler is a lot more consuming. He has more skills now for moving through emotions. But anyway, I used to, and then I have a sensory seeking older child who loves to talk and move and--
01:03:05 Alyssa
Connect.
01:03:06 Rachel
Oh yeah. And so there were times that I had a saying that was if I'm feeling bitchy, we're putting on Blippi. And that was my way to buy myself 20 minutes to calm my nervous system. And sometimes it was more than 20 minutes. And again, it was one of those situations where like with Nora, I would have felt so much shame. And by the time I was living in survival mode with infant Abel, I literally was like, I don't give a flying care what it takes. I need him to not be crying. And I need 20 minutes to myself.
01:03:46 Alyssa
100%. That's how I feel about the car right now is somebody that I know was chatting about how when we were kids, we would play all these games in the car and blah, blah, blah. And my kids each watch a show. We do a lot of traveling and we always have. Since Sagey was six, seven weeks old, we've done the trip to my parents, which is six hours each way. And when Beans was six weeks old, we came to Maine. We just, Yeah. We do. We travel a lot in the car. And each kid has an iPad at this point. Bean's got her iPad for her first birthday Christmas time this year. And it is in the car on their little spot. They can watch a show while we're going, yada, yada. And this person who is a generation above me was like, oh yeah, kids don't know how to be bored these days in cars. They're all just on a screen, whatever. And I had this guilt set in of like, oh shoot, am I preventing them from being bored? What's this gonna play out down there? So that was surfacing. And no lie, in the same trip, I was chatting with my parents and we were talking about, we're going down to North Carolina in April and we're driving, it's this really long trip. And we used to go to the Outer Banks growing up. Every year, that was our one thing my family did. We would drive to the Outer Banks and stay for a week and drive home and it's like a 12, 14 hour drive. and with the five of us kids and my parents were recalling like how annoying I was in the car and how I would just like sit right behind and be like, how many more Barney's? I wasn't watching Barney's. We didn't have that capability, but how many more Barney's? And they would have to break down how many more 15 minute chunks of time were left in this 12 hour drive. And I would ask questions the whole way and just like, honestly, they're like, we would have gladly given you Barney if you would just sat there and watched it and left us alone, that would have been real nice. And I was like, oh, it was so good to hear. Like, the other person probably feels jealous or disappointed that screens were not an option in the car. Because it's not like we never watched TV in my house. We just didn't have as an option on an iPad in the car.
01:06:06 Rachel
Right. Exactly. Yeah. I think there's so much amnesia about how much screen time happened in--
01:06:16 Alyssa
A hundred percent,
01:06:17 Rachel
You know, and--
01:06:18 Alyssa
I'm really good at Mario Kart because I had a lot of practice time.
01:06:24 Rachel
Totally. It's it's like that meme that's like the wife is like, honey, can you please go easy on your kids? And then it's like the dad's like Dale Earnhardt for Mario Kart, that's me. I don't, I will not purposely lose, so buckle up. But Abel can now beat me, whatever. Um, so.
01:06:42 Alyssa
I'll take him.
01:06:43 Rachel
Dude, he's so good, it's so annoying. But I started letting him play when he was two, and now he's almost six, so it's probably why. Yeah, I just think there's amnesia about how much screen time there was, and I watched a ton of screens, and also was bored a lot, that those two things can coexist. And it's funny, because we're kind of in a season of life right now where like, Cody is really worked up about screens, he goes through phases where he gets worked up about screens. Like winter's not the time for that.
01:07:13 Alyssa
That's exactly what we were just talking about. It's like we have so much more screen time in the winter.
01:07:18 Rachel
So do we. And also I'm also like doing tons of art projects with the kids and Nora's writing poetry and like we're making bracelets and we're painting and we're baking and we're like, I can only do that for so long. And feel free to control screen time when you are on with the kids. And then when you're not and I'm working and they're on school vacation, I'll just call the shots. And like, I just don't feel shame or like worry or anxiety about screens in the same way that he does. And so this is like a thing, it happens. It comes in waves where like, he's like, the kids are living on screen. It's like, we've got to do something. It's like, they're not living on screens, okay? They're having screen time, it's fine. I'm not worried about it, I'm really not. And we're in that right now.
01:08:04 Alyssa
The skunk guy is outside right now, so I got distracted.
01:08:07 Rachel
Oh no. He's still dealing with that?
01:08:10 Alyssa
We have caught 20 skunks here, so we rent where we are. Our landlords have caught 20 skunks and it's just gotten worse in the last couple of weeks because it's mating season for skunks. And so their smell lingers. It's like they spray to let the female know where they are, and then they continue to emit their odor as long as they're around to be like, yeah, keep coming, we're over here. And our landlords, we know where they burrow under the house, they've made a little den. And we know where they go, but they didn't want to close off the hole in case there's a skunk in there. So they've been catching them in a trap and driving them miles away and then releasing them. But we've caught over 20 this year, like over the past year.
01:08:59 Rachel
That's wild.
01:09:00 Alyssa
Now we finally have a pest control person who has set up game cameras under there so we can track and then make sure that they're out, they can close the hole and take care of this hopefully once and for all because it's disgusting. It's to the point, this last smell, where our stuff inside smells. I brought the slumber pad on the trip, and I got there and set it up since I was getting there first on my vacation drive without kids. When I was getting there first, I set it up, and when I unpacked it, I was like, oh my gosh, it smells like skunk.
01:09:34 Rachel
How does Sage deal with that?
01:09:38 Alyssa
It's like right when you smell it, it's really intense, and then you get used to it, and it's when you come and go from it. At first, he's gagging, And then once you're like in the house and around it, it's when you leave and you come back, you can smell it.
01:09:54 Rachel
Yeah. Ugh, sheesh.
01:09:57 Alyssa
With the skunk guys outside.
01:10:00 Rachel
Well, fingies crossed that this professional skunk guy can take care of this. Like, wow.
01:10:05 Alyssa
Seriously. Also, this is one of those scenarios where I started with like, yes, save the skunks, bring them to another place.
01:10:12 Rachel
Yeah, and now you're like, burn it down.
01:10:13 Alyssa
Correct, I'm like, all of them, gone. Cause this is what I'm talking about.
01:10:16 Rachel
I'm like so desensitized to that kind of stuff because of Cody's line of work, and also they can carry rabies. So any animal like that that's like a rabies vector, I'm like, yeah, get rid of it.
01:10:26 Alyssa
Get rid of it.
01:10:27 Rachel
Get rid of it. I used to think like foxes, raccoons, they're so cute. And now I'm like, you could be rabid, get the hell away from me. Cody had a rabies scare one year and came home with some trauma, and I think I inherited it. the thing about rabies is like once you're symptomatic you're done for so it's just like it really is.
01:10:54 Alyssa
Yeah there's they talk about it in The Office.
01:10:58 Rachel
Oh I don't watch The Office.
01:10:59 Alyssa
I know. I know this about you.
01:11:03 Rachel
Cody was watching it last night and I was reading.
01:11:05 Alyssa
I am super jazzed to be moving into this part of my parenting journey where I feel like I'm experiencing less and less and less guilt. And it has been, for me, something I've been very focused on and
01:11:26 Rachel
Understatement. Is like obsessed with.
01:11:36 Alyssa
Yeah, and it's not even just in parenting, it's everything. It's the, am I enough? Because that's the root of so much for me from childhood is like, I wanted to feel seen and valued and loved and validated. And I felt like I kept doing all of these things in hopes that I would feel that. And I did not. And now that still lives on, right? And so that is always my work is like, you're doing enough, you are enough, and that bleeds, of course, into parenting. And I am jazzed and I feel like I'm entering into the season now. And it was really good for me to have like 48 hours away from Beans and to be like, God, that was good for both of us. And everybody was fine. And actually, I think what I want to do is put out like an Instagram post with a call to action asking people, what's the one thing you think matters for fostering a secure attachment?
01:12:46 Rachel
Yeah.
01:12:47 Alyssa
I feel like that's been so much of my work is answering that question. What's the one thing that really matters?
01:12:53 Rachel
Yeah.
01:12:54 Alyssa
Because it's not perfection and it's not the amount of time you spend with your kids.
01:12:59 Rachel
There's so many things that it's not, that social media tells you that it is.
01:13:03 Alyssa
Correct. Correct. What's yours? What do you think the one thing is?
01:13:10 Rachel
For me, and this has been a challenge, but I feel like I'm in a groove with it at least for this moment, is really taking the time to take in the child in front of me, my child and what they're experiencing in this moment, and taking the time to recognize what it's bringing up for me and not letting that shape my response. That for me, it's not about how much time I spend with them. I mess up all the time. But what's been most important for our relationships is that I would say the majority of the time I can look at what they're experiencing, feel whatever childhood experience that's bringing up for me because it's always triggering something. And not letting that dictate how I respond to them. It doesn't always happen. It's never gonna always happen. But it took a minute to get there. I wanted to be perfect and I wanted to respond to every single interaction with intention. And that's not possible.
01:14:12 Alyssa
Yeah. Well, and I think what's so key there is that then it ends up, yeah, there are times where you're going to say something. There are times where you're going to say nothing. There are times where you're going... by doing that allows you to not just, not even just react, but not just like always respond. So I've been thinking about this question for myself. I think for me, it comes, the foundation is allowing them to be themselves while holding the expectation and boundary of respectful communication. Yeah, that like Sage is gonna show up in the world differently than she's going to. And Mila's sometimes feels easier for me to allow how she shows up in the world because A, it's how I often show up in the world so I feel like I can relate to it. And B, it's often what is socially praised.
01:15:23 Rachel
Yes.
01:15:24 Alyssa
And I want both of them to get to be fully who they are while maintaining respectful communication.
01:15:40 Rachel
Yeah.
01:15:40 Alyssa
That like, she doesn't get to scream just because she goes into fight mode. We can hone those skills. He doesn't get to ignore every conflict because he wants to run away and freeze. And we can hone those skills. and those are a part of respectful communication with me or for me, but allowing them to be themselves within this. And so what does it look like to allow her to express and go into fight mode and also not just scream in our face all the time? What does it look like to allow him to be himself and have space and take time and build the skill set for talking about things that are vulnerable.
01:16:27 Rachel
Yeah.
01:16:28 Alyssa
As my big feeler.
01:16:30 Rachel
Yeah, I think that is a more articulate way of saying, like, when I say I wanna parent the kid in front of me, that's what I mean. Like, taking Abel and Nora in the exact same scenario, my response has to be different. And they trigger different things from my childhood. So like, just as one example, This morning, Nora made breakfast. I knew it was gonna make a huge mess. And when I went out there and it had made a huge mess and I had a meeting in 10 minutes and she needed my help, there was a part of me from childhood that was wanting to recreate what I experienced in childhood, right? Which would have been like shame and punishment and you better clean this up, et cetera, et cetera. And I had to, of course, I've had years of practice because this is Noni, she's like giving and thoughtful and wants to do things for others, but there's just like a tornado of chaos in her wake. And I had to like pause for a second and think about, I don't want, that's like something from my childhood that I remember and felt like I didn't want to repeat. And it's like that pause of like, okay, this is actually something I love about her. She offered to take on a task that she knew I didn't have the time for this morning. She was trying to make her brother food. She even took the time to pick like a protein and a carb and like try to make it a balanced meal, like so thoughtful. And like, am I just gonna get annoyed that like there's some stuff around the kitchen or am I gonna see her for who she is and what she was trying to do? And like, that's the pause that is so important for me to show up and be in secure attachment with my kids because there is a part of me that wants to be like, what the hell? Like you just need so much more work for me.
01:18:16 Alyssa
100%.
01:18:16 Rachel
You know?
01:18:17 Alyssa
Yeah, clean this up. Yeah. Oh, 100%. And it's so hard to do in practice.
01:18:26 Rachel
Day in and day out. That's what's hard, right? In an isolated incident, sure. But every day for 18 years, whoo, whoo.
01:18:33 Alyssa
And beyond.
01:18:34 Rachel
Yeah, totally.
01:18:35 Alyssa
Yeah, it's so real, it's so real. I think that's the part that I want social media to share more of, it's like, you don't do it day in and day out.
01:18:44 Rachel
Oh, totally. There have been times when I literally have been like, I can't handle this mess.
01:18:49 Alyssa
Yeah.
01:18:49 Rachel
Like I've told you, if you're gonna be in the kitchen, and you have to clean up after yourself. And it's not that like, it wasn't even, she still is gonna help me clean up, but it's like, how does that conversation happen? Right?
01:18:59 Alyssa
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Thanks for doing this work with me, Rach. Thanks for imperfectly parenting with me.
01:19:07 Rachel
Always, every day.
01:19:08 Alyssa
I love ya.
01:19:09 Rachel
Love you.
01:19:12 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
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