How to Not Raise Narcissists: Entitlement vs. Self Worth with Dr. Mary Ann Little, PhD

 

00:00:00    Alyssa

You're listening to Voices of Your Village. And today I got to hang out with Dr. Mary Ann Little. She's a PhD and is a clinical psychologist who's been in private practice for over four decades. We got to dive into a juicy topic talking about childhood narcissism. Her latest book is Childhood Narcissism: Strategies to Raise Unselfish, Unentitled and Empathetic Children. She is currently an adjunct professor at the University of Texas Southwestern medical center at Dallas, and has served as an adjunct professor in the departments of psychology and special education at the University of Texas at Dallas. She has a number of books under her belt at this point. And she is also a consultant to a number of educational and psychiatric facilities and frequently lectures to both lay and professional audiences. When she's not in her Dallas office, she can be found with her husband cooking, cycling back roads in Europe or hiking trails near Santa Fe. It was a fun conversation. I feel like the word narcissism is such a triggering one. And I was excited to dive in with her on what does this really look like? What does it even mean? And what can we as parents be doing to support children so that we aren't looking at narcissistic adults down the road? How do we help them see outside themselves? If this podcast has been helpful for you, please take a minute to rate and review. This helps us reach more folks who are looking for tools to raise emotionally intelligent humans. I'm so deeply grateful to get to do this work alongside you and to bring free resources like this podcast to you. Thank you so much for sharing. You're the bomb. Couldn't do this without you and wouldn't want to. All right, folks, let's dive in. 

 

00:01:51    Alyssa

Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together. 

 

00:02:13    Alyssa

How are you, Dr. Little? 

 

00:02:15    Dr. Little

I'm good today. Thank you. 

 

00:02:17    Alyssa

Good. Are you from Texas? I know you're down in Texas now, yeah? 

 

00:02:21    Dr. Little

I'm actually in Dallas, yes. 

 

00:02:23    Alyssa

Okay. And that's where you're from, like, born and raised? 

 

00:02:26    Dr. Little

Actually born and raised, but I was educated on the East Coast. And then I went back to medical school, came back to Dallas, got a PhD in clinical psychology there, but at the medical school here. And then I did a postdoctoral fellowship with somebody you may know, Jean Piaget. I worked with Bärbel Inhelder at the University of Geneva for a year. And then I came back to Dallas. 

 

00:02:46    Alyssa

Very cool. Very, very cool. All roads kept leading back to Dallas, huh? 

 

00:02:51    Dr. Little

It seemed like that, yes. 

 

00:02:54    Alyssa

Nice and warm. That's nice. Where were you on the East Coast? 

 

00:02:56    Dr. Little

In Massachusetts, in Western Massachusetts. Where are you? Can I ask? 

 

00:03:00    Alyssa

Yeah, absolutely. I'm in Burlington, Vermont. Yeah, I grew up near Buffalo, New York, and then my husband's from here. So we moved here to raise our kids with his family. I'm so intrigued by this topic of your book because I think like it's a word that really jumps out at people, right? When we're talking about narcissism, I think everyone's like, yeah, I don't want to raise a narcissist. And it is such almost like a triggering word where I like you hear it, you're like, Whoa, and I'm so curious, like, what led you in to this space into this work around narcissism? What piqued your interest there? 

 

00:03:35    Dr. Little

Yeah, it's actually interesting, because I never intended to write a book on narcissism. But it turned out that over the course of my many years of clinical practice, I started seeing more and more people who suffered from narcissism to little or larger degrees. And after a while, it became clear that if I was going to practice, I was going to need to know more about it. And I would tell you that it didn't start out initially that I was interested in the full -blown disorder, but it started out that I was interested in the tendencies and traits that could be seen in children. And a little bit more clinical than perhaps you would like, but technically you cannot diagnose a narcissistic personality disorder until someone is 18 years of age. And the general consensus is is that it's pretty much untreatable. So I laughing with my colleague, smart person that I am, I decided, well, if we can't diagnose it till 18 and it's pretty much untreatable, if we could see signs of it before that, that would allow us to do something about it, then perhaps we should intervene early. And so that's how I came to the general purpose of this book. 

 

00:04:51    Alyssa

I love it, go upstream. 

 

00:04:52    Dr. Little

Yes. 

 

00:04:53    Alyssa

Yeah, I dig it. Can we chat about what are some of those things that you're looking for, or the kind of signs of narcissism earlier on? 

 

00:05:02    Dr. Little

Sure. Now, let me just sort of start globally. With a narcissistic personality disorder, what we will see in that particular person is selfishness, self -absorption, a lack of regard for the feelings of others, low empathy, and a kind of, well, I would tell you all of those things lead to impaired interpersonal relationships so that when you get those qualities going, you end up there. 

 

00:05:29    Alyssa

That makes sense. 

 

00:05:30    Dr. Little

But with that said, diagnosing narcissism in children gets problematic because all children start out narcissistic. 

 

00:05:39    Alyssa

Yeah, they got to for survival. 

 

00:05:41    Dr. Little

Yeah, it's actually true. And so what happens is, is that there really is healthy narcissism. And when I've been out lecturing on my book, people are always surprised when I say no, if you don't have enough healthy narcissism, you cannot be successful in life. That's the, I can do it, I can find a cure to cancer, I can problem -solve, I can figure something out. All those things indicate a kind of confidence and persistence that is common to the motivation for not only achievement, but also interpersonal connection. So what happens is, over the course of development, is that narcissistic tendencies, they're sort of primitive in little kids, that's the same tantrum, you didn't give me mom what I wanted, and that's the, I'm frustrated because things aren't going my way, but what happens is those self -centered things should begin to fade. The selfishness, the demanding-ness, the entitlement should fall away. At the same time, that healthy skills should begin to develop, and part of what I know you write about is empathy, and one of those signs is the development of empathy. It is empathy, increase cooperation in more mature forms of coping. And so you want, if you will, I don't know how much the camera can see my hands, but you want certain things to fade at the same time that you want other things to come in. And that's what we're looking for in kids. 

 

00:07:09    Alyssa

And what age -ish or age range would we be looking for that shift to kind of take over? 

 

00:07:15    Dr. Little

Well the shift I think primarily takes place around six or seven or eight. That's a one big shift. And there's another big shift that's 10, 11, or 12. Now, kids won't actually reason and think like full -blown adults, the data now suggests 23, 24, it's way out there. But you have got to move out of the sort of pre -operational or semi -logical thinking that's common to preschoolers until you get a little bit more logic. You have to be able to see outside of yourself to be able to have empathy or to be able to be concerned about, if you will, the feelings of others. 

 

00:07:51    Alyssa

This is interesting because I think like this perspective is really helpful for a lot of our listeners who have young kids and that age range may have been surprising to them. I think of things like sharing or trying to breed empathy in really young kids and how we talk about it in our book, but like when we're focusing on this under five, so much has to come from us ourselves first. You have to know what a feeling feels like before you can connect with somebody else experiencing that feeling. And so laying those foundations so that then when they are in that six, seven range, they can start to do what I consider the like social parts of social emotional development and being able to step outside themselves. The book that I'm writing right now is the next age range. So it's that kindergarten to fifth grade range. Yeah. And so this is really pertinent. It's kind of like coming up a lot of like, what does it look like to now be in that social component where, yeah, those first five years are really all about them. And then as we're shifting out of that and they're trying to figure out like, who am I in the world in a social scenario with peers? What does it look like to have inclusion and belonging? That's where I feel like this work really comes in, the narcissistic piece, and how do we start to support them with these tools so that... I have one thing that like really comes up for me here, I think for myself and a number of us growing up, it was never about us, and it was so very focused outside and it was like how to present and that being kind to others was often more important than being kind to ourselves. And I think there's been a pendulum swing in parenting of like, no, we're going to make sure that they have their own needs met and that they know how to navigate self -advocacy and really stand up for themselves, which I think are great things, but I think we've swung that pendulum perhaps a little too far. 

 

00:09:52    Dr. Little

I am in absolute agreement with what you're talking about. And I write a great deal about it in my book about the importance of hitting what I refer to as the middle ground. And what parents really need to understand in keeping with what you're talking about is that there can be too much or too little of almost anything. So there's too much attention and there's too little attention. Now this will confuse parents, but there can also be almost too much affection as well as too little affection. And I think if you grew up the way you're describing where there was perhaps it was a little too rigid or structured and not sensitive enough to your needs, that one can sometimes idealize, oh, we want more would be better. I think an extreme amount of more, whatever it would be affection. And actually there's too much, right? 

 

00:10:42    Alyssa

Exactly. It's so interesting. I'm one of five kids. I have four brothers and I married an only child. And so our childhood experiences just from like the nature of how much attention was available even for us is so vastly different. And we're like ends of the spectrum, right? And now looking for that happy medium in the middle of like, what does it look like to to support them? I'm wondering what your work has shown in terms of gender and just like anecdotally in my life, it seems as though girls are expected to be selfless more than boys, right? And I think that there can be this unhealthy, like martyrdom almost of like selflessness specifically expected from girls that we don't expect from boys. And then how that shifts into like adulthood and for women and eventually potentially moms. I'm wondering how that shows up in your work in the context of this. 

 

00:11:41    Dr. Little

Yeah, that's actually a fascinating question. And I have not really, I don't know the literature specifically about girls. I would tell you as far as narcissism goes, it was originally thought that there were more male narcissists than female narcissists, that men were more typically indulged than women were indulged. And I think that clearly makes historical sense, where men carried on the family mantle, if you will, and women weren't allowed to do that. That said, I think that the issue there is one of too much. And people sometimes are thinking in the modern world that I wanna be certain my child feels special. And I present myself as the anti -special person. In fact, I would just tell you my agent at one point said, now, I don't know if we can sell a book that says that you're not just tremendously special. The world wants that. And so I'm really promoting the idea that we can indulge children too much and treat them as too special in a way that's actually injurious. 

 

00:12:48    Alyssa

Okay, let's dive into this. 

 

00:12:49    Dr. Little

Okay. 

 

00:12:50    Alyssa

I, cause this was one of the things obviously for our team to jumped out. We're like, okay, tell me more about this. And as I was reading your book and reading this, the idea around like avoiding treating them as if they are special, I was like, I think we're actually in agreement here. We just have different ways of saying it. So let's break this down. I, while we don't want our kids to think that they're better than others, we do want them to feel like they have like inherent self -worth, that they are unique individuals, like whatever that may be, right? And for me, that comes up as like, I want them to understand how their body works and that their body might work differently than mine or need different things. For instance, my three -year -old and I are like a sensory mismatch. We have very different sensory integration in how we process the world. 

 

00:13:45    Dr. Little

Okay. 

 

00:13:46    Alyssa

So like how I present things to him, it's like, he loves going on the swings, that makes my belly feel sick. And my husband loves going on the swings. So they can do that together. That's great for them. But the uniqueness of like how our bodies work, and thus, like, he is sound sensitive. And so sometimes wearing headphones is helpful for him. My daughter is not sound sensitive. It's not a tool that she needs to tap into. And so I'm wondering how we talk about like their uniqueness as humans in this context? 

 

00:14:15    Dr. Little

Interesting, interesting question. But what I am concerned about is children getting the message that they are special in the sense that they are better than others. And I think that what we can teach children is that they are deeply loved by parents, and that parents can appreciate their individual gifts. So a child can have a special gift, but that doesn't make them, if you will, special. 

 

00:14:44    Alyssa

And by special you mean better. 

 

00:14:46    Dr. Little

I mean better than everybody else. Because the only path to being one of us, which is human, is being like us. And if ever, if I'm special then I'm superior to you and in a certain way I'm not in the human race. I'm unique. I'm above it. And what we are wanting children to say is no, you can be great at running or you can be super at smelling or you can be just a real whiz at math facts, but you're still one of us. You're more like us than you're different. And in perhaps the most unique way, you are uniquely loved by your parents. I think parents love kids, not because they're special. Parents love kids because they're wonderful human beings. 

 

00:15:30    Alyssa

Yeah, yeah. 

 

00:15:31    Dr. Little

And connect with. 

 

00:15:32    Alyssa

Totally, because of science. Science is really getting us there with that oxytocin. 

 

00:15:38    Dr. Little

It primes you to fall in love. And the real answer is what you're really wanting kids to know is I'm in love with you. 

 

00:15:45    Alyssa

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I love this. So what does this look like then in the context, I feel like we live in a culture that does say like, who's the best at this thing, in a sense of like, you are better than like, you get this trophy, you got first place at this, you I'm wondering how that factors in here when they're going to receive all those messages, too. 

 

00:16:07    Dr. Little

Yeah, and I think, again, what you want to do as a parent is try to say, yeah, you did swim very fast in the race, and you did get a first place medal, and that's wonderful. But you want it to be clear that that doesn't mean you don't have to feed the dog tomorrow morning and also doesn't mean you have to be nice to your sister. So that what's happening in the development of the self -concept is it's integrated with strengths and weaknesses. And parents' job is to accurately reflect the strength. You don't want to be telling a child they're a math whiz when they're actually not. But you do want to be telling them they're a hard worker if they truly are, right? So that there's an integration where children actually have to be frustrated, and we refer to it in psychoanalytic literature as deflated, where I kind of am not the ruler of the universe. My mom and dad love me, but I still have to make my bed. And, you know, school's fun into the subjects I like, but I hate, you know, history, you know, mom, it's terrible. But that still means I have to do my history homework. 

 

00:17:12    Alyssa

Totally. Yeah. In our household, we talk about this as what we're still learning, that all of us are still learning some things and all of us. Right. And so I will, when I've like lost my cool and then I go to repair and I'll say like, Oh, I'm still learning what it feels like in my body when I'm feeling overwhelmed so that I can calm and be kind to you. right? And so we do like, what are we still learning? Sage, my three -year -old is really into tools and like not kid tools. He wants a real tool, right? Like real drills, real tools. And we've just taught him how he's exposed to them quite a bit. My husband's pretty handy. And so we've just taught him how to use tools safely at within, you know, a development range. 

 

00:17:54    Dr. Little

I totally agree with that because I think one of the things that is so important is that I'm emphasizing coming back is competence, not excellence. We're not saying you can wield a hammer better than any boy in your preschool class. What we're really saying is, look, you've learned how to connect the hammer with that nail that daddy's got there, you know? And that's a wonderful thing. I think our culture generally overemphasizes this notion of best-ness and under -emphasizes competence. And-- 

 

00:18:27    Alyssa

I love that. Yeah. 

 

00:18:28    Dr. Little

Okay, and I talk about this, actually I tell a very cute story that when I finish my book, I have a little section in my lectures where I talk about embracing unconventional values. And what I'm really talking about is non -common values. And my husband said to me, you know, honey, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I actually think your book might be going to be a flop. And I said, you do? I mean, and he said, well, think about it. He said, you're embracing ordinary in a world that values special. You're embracing competence in a world that is set on excellence. You're talking about nuance in a world that wants obvious. And I'm also another section that you're emphasizing less in a world that values more. And so he kind of very sweetly said, I think you should try real hard, honey, but it could be an uphill climb. 

 

00:19:18    Alyssa

I appreciate the perspective. You know, just coming in hot with that. He's so right though, that like we are in this space. I know I very much grew up in a like, I was president of student council. I was a star athlete. I was always had A's in my class. And that was what was expected. Excellence was what was expected. And there was a phrase in my school that was 'be an 11, not just a 10, be an 11.' Right. Like go above and beyond. 

 

00:19:49    Dr. Little

No kidding. 

 

00:19:49    Alyssa

And we be an 11. And we were celebrated for, there was an 11 named every week at school. Like who is being an 11? Right? Like it was celebrated to go above and beyond. And now I think we live in this world where so many of us are burnt out and exhausted from trying to be an 11. And I'm like, how do we get back to like being a seven, you know, and saying like a seven is good. Like it's okay to be a seven, to be competent in areas and not excel at everything and allowing that to be true. That I think, you know, when we look at like, historically speaking, when we lived in smaller villages, not everyone excelled at every skill set, everyone came together with their own skill sets to then create a village of humans. 

 

00:20:36    Dr. Little

And everybody makes a contribution. 

 

00:20:38    Alyssa

Exactly. 

 

00:20:39    Dr. Little

That contribution could be anywhere from a seven to an 11. But I would tell you that I'm worried that there's a whole nother set of parents who are who themselves were 11. And excuse my language, but they're hell bent on raising three 11s. And they're gonna not be very nice in terms of getting their kid ahead. 

 

00:21:02    Alyssa

I agree. 

 

00:21:04    Dr. Little

If you had practiced as long as I've practiced, which is the one benefit of being as old as I am, is that I would just want to reassure young mothers and young families that those things that are taken as absolute wins, I've taken the race are not necessarily so, because I've treated the 35 -year -old doctor whose mother made him become a doctor and he's desperately unhappy. And I've treated the practically perfect girl who has a PhD from Yale, and she's had three unhappy marriages and her pursuit of the best has been frustrated because she could never find the best man. 

 

00:21:42    Alyssa

Sure, sure. Yeah, I think you're right. And I wonder too, I think in that pursuit of best, we can also, as parents, this is for me, the like, well, everyone gets a trophy, like that everyone is celebrated as equal in things. And I don't think that's the answer either of like, this team wins the soccer game and this team loses. The losing team doesn't also get a trophy just so that they don't feel bad about it. So they don't feel left out or sad. And I think we're seeing this too, when it comes to academia and in schoolwork where, you said one of the things that's really important for parents is that we reflect accurately, that if a kid isn't excelling in something, we're not like, wow, you're so great at math facts, when maybe they aren't. Maybe that's something they're still learning. And I think we do this in an effort to like, I don't know, maybe inspire them to keep going with it or for them to feel good about themselves within it. But I think when you're the kid and you're in it and you're like, this is really hard and I'm looking around and all my friends are getting more of these math facts right than I am. Then I come home and I hear that I'm so great at it. It just doesn't add up and it doesn't feel authentic. 

 

00:22:57    Dr. Little

And I think you're right. Parents can make mistakes in an effort to try and encourage their children by not realistically knowing where their children actually are and what they're functioning, the level they're functioning. Because what you want to be able to say is, you know, you had 37 math facts and look at you, now you have 84. You have done great. I don't think we have to say you've got to catch up with your brother or the girl in the second row behind you who's got 150. That doesn't do our children well. But because the self -concept is really one that we want them to have is that I am deeply loved by my parents and in my family. And I have some skills and I have some weaknesses and I'm going to build a life out of weaving those together in ways that help me meet my goals. 

 

00:23:49    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And then it's for them, the like competition with themselves, right. Going from 37 to 50 to 80 versus I need to be the best at this in my classroom and compete with the humans around me. 

 

00:24:03    Dr. Little

I love that. Plus, I would also tell you that being able to persist, I mean, you know, those are the notions that come from grit. And that's a good thing to know, because if you ever had a hard time with math facts, then it turns out, you know, God forbid, if you have a child that has some sort of medical disorder, that you've got the same kind of grit to find the best doctors, to try to get the treatment, a quality of care that they need. And that you kind of say, I know I can do that. How do you know that? I don't know that people can always say it. but it's because I did those math facts all those years ago. 

 

00:24:36    Alyssa

Totally.

 

00:24:36    Dr. Little

I know what I can do, right? 

 

00:24:39    Alyssa

Yeah, I feel grateful. This is a thing that I have. And I feel grateful about it. And it's, I think of my dad, where when I would have a question about something, I'm like, what's this answer? He would say, go look it up. And we had an encyclopedia Britannica. And I would have to go look it up and figure out information, etc. was before I could like, Google it. And I had to go learn stuff and like build that skill set. They always believed in my ability to learn and grow in those spaces. I was 14 years old and I said, I want to study abroad in Austria. And I came from a low income family, we didn't have money for it or anything. They were like, totally. Yeah. How are you going to make it happen? And I created different ways to fundraise and I found an avenue to go. And they were just like, yeah, I'm sure you can figure this out. They didn't figure it out for me. And the path wasn't easy to do it. It wasn't just like, sure, let's write a check, you can go do it, or we'll do it for you and figure it all out for you. I had to figure it out. But they instilled the like, I'm sure you can figure it out. 

 

00:25:43    Dr. Little

Sure. But I think that's another important and essential aspect of parenting, which is knowing you, they had confidence in you in the areas where they'd seen you do it before. And they were prepared, I think it sounds like, to encourage you, perhaps not do it for you, which is probably to the good, but that belief in you is also foundational. 

 

00:26:05    Alyssa

Yeah, it's true. It's true. I mean, and now Seed is a growing business and we've got a lot going on over here and I think you can't walk into entrepreneurship without that of like, I'm sure I can figure it out. There's no one telling you what to do. When we're looking at these like narcissistic characteristics. What are some things as they're getting older into that like 11, 12 range that for folks of older kids who are in our village, they might be noticing to say like, hey, this feels like it's headed that direction. And then how do we course correct? 

 

00:26:44    Dr. Little

Yeah, well, I would just tell you, there are a number of different types of narcissists in terms of children. And I have a list of them. And I would talk about, they look quite different. And I'm gonna name two or three of them right now. One is the high achieving narcissist and they actually look practically perfect. Those are the kids that are gonna be valedictorian and perhaps go to Harvard or Yale. And those are the achieving narcissists. Now there's another one that's just like him, same dynamics, they wanna win at everything and they choose not to achieve at all. So there's the kind of slacker narcissist, I don't give a damn, I'm not gonna do it, right? There's the manipulative narcissist, which is often the charismatic, can -be -captain -of -the -football -team, you know, or the queen bee, and they're socially savvy, and they organize groups to get their way. 

 

00:27:33    Alyssa

Sure. Sometimes they become presidents? 

 

00:27:35    Dr. Little

Sometimes. They can get, actually, many of those get into positions of power. Truthfully, if you look, they're over -represented in every field you could go to, whether it's lawyers, doctors, psychologists, anything. 

 

00:27:47    Alyssa

Makes sense. 

 

00:27:48    Dr. Little

You can get them there. And then I would tell you also there's the kind of daredevil narcissist, which has a bit more of the love to drive the car fast and ride their bicycle down the hill and encourage kids to be wild or promiscuous typically as you get older, that kind of thing. And the last one I would mention to you is the closet narcissist, and they don't look like narcissists at all. They just attach to another narcissist. So then it's, my best friend is Susie and she's gonna be valedictorian, or or my boyfriend is Bobby and he's captain of the football team, or whatever it is that you particularly value. But with those things in mind, I would just tell you that the ones that are more obvious as children get older have more to do with social control where there's an insensitivity toward others. They are either bullies or oftentimes, or they are manipulators. And the overarching characteristic is that insensitivity, or if you will, lack of empathy according to you and your book. 

 

00:28:48    Alyssa

Okay. I have a question. So when we're looking at this, what I'm hearing is that it really comes back to like social control and social success. And this is where I'm wondering, like, is it the, I want to be in control of how others perceive me. And so I'm going to be the bully, or I am really charismatic, or I am attached to the captain of the football team or whatever, that it's all this, like, I want to be in control of how others perceive me? And if yes, for me in our work, that feels like a trauma response. Yeah? 

 

00:29:21    Dr. Little

It can be. But I think it would be two aspects. I want to control how other people perceive me. And I also want to control that I get all the goods. So whether that means I get into Yale, or whether that means in I have the highest grade in whatever, because I need a continuous supply of information that tells me that I'm swell. And the problem with narcissism is it's almost to be, think of it like a bucket. If self -concept is a bucket, their bucket has a hole in the bottom. So, you know, for you or me, you might kind of just, if you're lucky, it sounds like you did this very clearly, you had enough successes that after a while, you begin to think you were pretty good at figuring things out. Or you were pretty good at making things happen and you had a confidence around it. But for people with narcissism, there's a hole in the bucket so that the A that they made yesterday doesn't hold them for tomorrow. And they got to have another A, which is why sometimes they've got to go on to the next beautiful girl to date because one beautiful girl won't hold. Or whether if they get to Harvard, that's not enough. Now they need to get to Yale Law School or whatever it might be. 

 

00:30:32    Alyssa

That like intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation that they're lacking the intrinsic. 

 

00:30:38    Dr. Little

That's right and one of the problems with being married to a narcissist is oftentimes you're supposed to supply that for them and so that's very difficult because the demands are ongoing. 

 

00:30:51    Alyssa

Sure sure that makes sense and if I don't feel loved and adored then all hell could break loose.

 

00:30:58    Dr. Little

 Yes and so then if you want to kind of with a person you're married to I'm sure you do this you want to kind of let him know that are not happy with how he handled the morning routine yesterday. Well for a narcissist that will set them often into a rage. They will grow defensive, they will counter -attack, they will tell you how unfair it is and a lot of times your complaints don't ever land. So being married to a narcissist is incredibly problematic because you end up feeling lonely and isolated and alone and any problem that you have can never be addressed. You're going to relive your husband's problem getting the kids out the door over and over on the days that it matches the same set of criteria. 

 

00:31:39    Alyssa

Yeah, wow, okay, yikes. 

 

00:31:41    Dr. Little

So you wouldn't like that. I mean, it's not a good place to be. 

 

00:31:44    Alyssa

Gosh, no. And so when it's showing up in childhood, this constant need for external validation as a marker for narcissism. 

 

00:31:57    Dr. Little

Absolutely, you are on it 100 % because the constant need for external validation is an evidence of the deficiency in the self -concept. If there's anything you could leave your child with, it really is not an inflated or a deflated self -concept, but an accurate, authentic one. 

 

00:32:20    Alyssa

Yeah. So when they come to you and they're like, mom, did you see this? Did you see this? I was the best at this. I got an A at this. I got a hundred on this. When they're coming and saying those extra and clearly looking for external validation, can you walk us through a response? 

 

00:32:35    Dr. Little

Absolutely. What you want to say is you're right. You did get a hundred on the spelling bee and wow, that is really something to focus on and to know that you can do. So what have we learned about you? What we've learned is, is that if you set your mind to something in an area that you choose, you can be successful at it. And that's what is important here is that you did the hard work to make something happen. 

 

00:32:58    Alyssa

Love it. Love that. It's still validating that achievement while, with the undertones of like, because you worked hard and set out to do this, you are capable of this achievement when you set your mind to it. 

 

00:33:13    Dr. Little

Right. And parents don't really realize this, but I would tell you when they're little and starting out, technically I think of it this way, they can't always draw on enough internal support to persist, which is why they sometimes need help. And that's not indulgence, that's help. Mom, I'm trying to make it to the spelling bee, but there's still a lot of words I don't know. Would you call them out to me? And/or even a sensitive mom might say, would you like me to call out some of them to you so that you'll have this opportunity to keep working on this goal that you've set for yourself? 

 

00:33:46    Alyssa

I love that. I love it. Oh, this is so helpful to think about. And I love the breakdowns of what it looks like in our tiny humans so that we can support them. Cause I think, like I said, it's one of those words that's so triggering. I think people hear it and they're like, well, of course I don't want to raise a narcissist, but it turns out a lot of narcissists have been raised. And so, 

 

00:34:08    Dr. Little

And I think more of them than we would like. And when, when your child marries a narcissist, I mean, actually that's a real risk. And also I would just tell you that many times narcissists seek out healthier people to partner with because they have some sixth sense that they've got some skills that I don't have. But ultimately, you know, it's not like our narcissists just always go marry another narcissist. Sometimes they seek out the healthy person. And you know, most of us marry people before we know everything about ourselves and certainly everything about the world. 

 

00:34:40    Alyssa

Well, especially if they're charismatic narcissists, right? Like so easy to fall for.

 

00:34:45    Dr. Little

Or high achieving, because, you know, both of those, it would be like, who doesn't want to marry the person who looks like he's going to get this fabulous job on Wall Street. 

 

00:34:53    Alyssa

Totally. Before we go, I was curious about the like, kind of daredevil narcissist. What's that route? Like why? Why the daredevil? 

 

00:35:03    Dr. Little

It's just an alternate way of getting accolades. You know, one way is to get great grades, one way is to be sort of, I manage people, this way is to say, I do things nobody else will dare to do. And so it's just another kind of external validation that makes them feel special. And if you will, all of those strategies make them feel better than other people, which is actually, you know, attempting to grab and keep for themselves. 

 

00:35:32    Alyssa

Sure, sure. That makes sense. And the lack of empathy component that they have for other humans and my assumption, because they still don't have their own self -awareness and self -worth that they can't, like I was saying with like our early childhood folks, when we're looking at below five, we're so focused on the individual so that they can have these tools themselves in order to even practice empathy and social skills. But so when we're raising these kids, if they don't have that self -component of self -awareness, how do I manage my own feelings? What does this all look like? What does frustration feel like in my body? All that jazz, then they can't look outside themselves and empathize. 

 

00:36:16    Dr. Little

But if you think about it, just to cast it slightly differently, it's just to say, if I can feel good enough about myself, I don't need any external accolades or applause to make me feel good about myself, then I have a lot of emotional energy to spend on others. If I don't have it, then I really don't have much to share with others because I'm really out there working hard to take care of me. In some ways, you know, the dance of narcissism is really an unending one because you never can capture enough supplies.

 

00:36:48    Alyssa

Yeah, that makes total sense to me. It's really focusing on that like self and individual is so key before they can look outside? 

 

00:36:57    Dr. Little

Well, not to push it too far, but I would just tell you the number one thing is that I think that narcissism is a disorder of the self. But I would say secondarily, that if you have a disorder of the self, by definition, you have a disordered model of love and relationships. And I write about in my book, the importance of parents giving children a healthy model of love and relationships. and I think narcissists do not have that. Most narcissists understand relationships as one -up, one -down relationships, and so they don't really seek out equal relationships. 

 

00:37:33    Alyssa

Break down that one -up, one -down. 

 

00:37:35    Dr. Little

That just means I'm superior and you're inferior. You provide me with adoration. I provide you with an opportunity to be around me. 

 

00:37:44    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:37:44    Dr. Little

And we can strike some kind of balance, but real healthy human connection is a trade -off. That sometimes I help you, sometimes you help me sometimes we go with your superior skills, sometimes we act on my superior skills, whatever it may be. 

 

00:38:00    Alyssa

How does the like power over dynamic from parents factor into that then like, I am always I'm the boss, what I say goes, I'm in control, that sort of approach, how does that foster into that one up one down? 

 

00:38:16    Dr. Little

Well, one of the questions I have is, did mom and dad have it with each other or was that just a parental issue? 

 

00:38:22    Alyssa

I mean, parentally. 

 

00:38:24    Dr. Little

If it's just parental, the parent, you know, the strong parent, I think it essentially has to do with there's a lot of research about this, but if it's truly authoritarian, it's injurious to children. But if it's just appropriate leadership with reasonable limits and expectations, then it it doesn't get read as one up, one down, it gets read as fair. And that's what you want children to think is, is that parents can be fair. That doesn't mean they don't do things that you don't like, because they do. That's part of their job. 

 

00:39:00    Alyssa

100%, yeah, totally. Yeah, I do things that they don't like every single day. That is part of my job. 

 

00:39:07    Dr. Little

But one of the signs of health that I see in older children is they get to the point where you can tell when the relationship is secure. And kids will say to me in my practice things like well you know my mom she's nice about this this and this you know she all these things and they go God but she still makes me make my bed and I can't believe she wouldn't let me have a phone until I was this age and you can tell that it's integrated because that affection for her stands in the face of it you know. I even say it sometimes it with kids that are older well they it's healthy they make a joke about it. I tell story in my book about a kid who referred to his dad as Captain Negative. And it was a somewhat a father that was an intellectual and kind of lectured about the world. And it became a joke between them. And it was so clear that he adored his father, but he sort of thought this thing about the lecture was kind of annoying. 

 

00:40:01    Alyssa

Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, I love that. And I think it's a really good distinction to make of like, being their leader is our job. And they're also not going to, especially in childhood, be like, you know what, mom, I can tell that you have my best interest at heart. Thanks so much for setting this boundary for me. And now that you say I shouldn't have a phone, like it makes total sense, right? Like that's not going to be their response in childhood. 

 

00:40:26    Dr. Little

It's never going to be, but you know, what's so wonderful. I've done it long enough. Sometimes kids, I get to see them when they're grown and they're 25. Oh God. And I'm so glad my mother didn't give me a phone. As it turns out, I had three girlfriends who did this and boy, they got into some real trouble with it. And at the time I hated my mom for it, but now maybe my mom knew something, you know? 

 

00:40:48    Alyssa

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's, that's a part of the job. It's part of the parenting job. That's not, it's not a pretty part. Thank you so much for writing this book, Childhood Narcissism: Strategies to Raise Unselfish, Unentitled and Empathetic Children. Dr. Little, I'm really jazzed that this is out in the world and that people can snag it now. Where can people find more about your work? 

 

00:41:14    Dr. Little

Yes, well, I would tell you my books are available Barnes & Noble, Amazon, anywhere, and also from the publisher Rowman and Littlefield. But I would also tell you I have a website where it tells you more about me. And that's DrMaryAnnLittle.com. I do think it's an important book. And the feedback that I've been getting from parents is it's a little, I think parents are a little hesitant because the topic is a little off -putting. But once they realize the middle portion of the book is actually a parenting book and it's saying you need to help your children be build these four essential structures and that once they realize that they're like I'm not so scared. 

 

00:41:50    Alyssa

Yeah I love that thank you so much for this work. 

 

00:41:53    Dr. Little

Okay, thank you. 

 

[Music]

 

00:42:04    Alyssa

We are on vacation, quote vacation, you know, 

 

00:42:08    Rachel

Yeah you just bring your chaos to another location. 

 

00:42:12    Alyssa

Legit, and trying to find a spot to record this, so I'm at my parents house, I'm in what the kids call it the alcohol room, which, cheers, and it is, it's just every, there's like sound machines blasting upstairs, I'm like, I can't there. And it's like, gotta nurse Mila down and fall asleep so fast, Mila, because then I have to go record just the juggle of vacation work. 

 

00:42:38    Rachel

Yeah, it's just, yeah. After I'm done with this, I get to bring both kids to my annual physical, so. 

 

00:42:48    Alyssa

Fun! What a vacation! 

 

00:42:52    Rachel

Can't wait!

 

00:42:52    Alyssa

What an adventure! Going on a trip, guys! 

 

00:42:54    Rachel

Cody is up north at a training. He's teaching a training. And he knew I had a physical, so he tried to get the schedule to be changed so he could be here. And he was like, I'm sorry babe, I can't change it. I'm like, you know what? It's okay. 

 

00:43:08    Alyssa

It's just gonna be what it is. 

 

00:43:10    Rachel

That's exactly right. It's gonna be what it is. 

 

00:43:13    Alyssa

I asked my dad this morning. So, COVID hit us here, not us, yet. Fingies crossed. But my grandma started it for this household and two people are down so far. And they're the two people outside of my husband who are the ones that are helpful with my kids. 

 

00:43:34    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

00:43:35    Alyssa

So it just like really shifted. Like today, this recording with you was gonna be covered because they were gonna help and that's not the case. So anyway, it's just like a lot of pivoting. But so I said to my dad this morning who does not have COVID, I was like, listen, you know what would be so helpful? After Sagey's nap, can you take him on an adventure? I don't care what you do. I don't care if you get ice cream. I don't care if you like whatever you want to do. Can you just do that? He was like totally. 

 

00:44:10    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

00:44:10    Alyssa

So I might get a very dysregulated child back later, but then Zach will be done with work. 

 

00:44:19    Rachel

Okay. Yeah. Also, it's always hard for me when like in my mind, I'm thinking like, okay, I'm gonna have these humans to like support me who like know my kids and are wonderful with my kids and have a trusting relationship and then like plans shift. And then it's like, oh, just kidding. You're on your own again. Sorry about that. 

 

00:44:41    Alyssa

Thats how it is. Okay, great. Also hilarious. This back here, this blanket. 

 

00:44:47    Rachel

Yeah. Whose mouth is that? 

 

00:44:49    Alyssa

It's a full giant blanket of my oldest nephew, like classic first grandchild. My dad had a full blanket of just Noah. 

 

00:45:00    Rachel

Yeah. I mean, it's, same with Jojo. 

 

00:45:02    Alyssa

Yeah. So classic. And we were like, but also like, Dad, I have four brothers, right? There's five of us.  Did he think that no one else was having kids or did he plan to do blankets for everyone? He just literally--

 

00:45:16    Rachel

Nope. Just Noah. 

 

00:45:18    Alyssa

He did not think past. No. So no, there's a bunch of stuff that's just like Noah's face. 

 

00:45:23    Rachel

Oh, it's so good. 

 

00:45:25    Alyssa

It's so good. 

 

00:45:26    Rachel

Oh man. 

 

00:45:29    Alyssa

Oh man, man is right. I'm excited for our beach vacation next week. And I'm so sorry if we deliver COVID to it, we're trying not to. 

 

00:45:37    Rachel

I mean, at this point, what are you going to do? and we're not going to cancel Beach Week. So I'm super excited. I am today not feeling like myself. So Cody's been gone for three days. I stayed up with my mom. So fun, because in time, but my nervous system now is like, wow. And I'm on my period. 

 

00:45:55    Alyssa

What a trifecta. 

 

00:45:57    Rachel

It was. And I try not to have my mom's house trashed when we stay with her because that's a really big trigger for her. So also a pressure to keep a level of cleanliness that I don't keep at my house. So I like got home today and I was like, wow, I am fried. 

 

00:46:16    Alyssa

Yeah 

 

00:46:16    Rachel

Absolutely fried. Mostly, mostly due to my period. But wow, I'm like, you know, when you're just like, so done? 

 

00:46:24    Alyssa

Yes. Yeah. And I'm like, all I really want when I get to that point, all I really want is alone time. 

 

00:46:31    Rachel

That's how I feel. I texted Cody and I was like, mentally, I am so, so tired. 

 

00:46:35    Alyssa

Yeah, yeah, I feel that. I woke up this morning and I was like, do I have COVID or do I just nurse my daughter every 90 minutes? I took a COVID test and it turns out I only just nursed my daughter every 90 minutes. So literally every hour and a half, every sleep cycle. And we're sharing a room and her last tooth just started to cut through of those four. So this is the last one of the four. Literally this morning I was like, okay, it has, I can like, feel it now. But every time she makes a noise, I don't want her to wake up Sage, so I just nurse her. And literally every 90 minutes. 

 

00:47:10    Rachel

Oh, it's painful. The sharing of the room with a nursing child. 

 

00:47:15    Alyssa

And a sensory sensitive human. 

 

00:47:18    Rachel

It's painful. 

 

00:47:19    Alyssa

Painful. It is painful. And we're gonna sign up for it for next week too, so.... 

 

00:47:25    Rachel

I know. 

 

00:47:26    Alyssa

I was like, you know what? If all else fails, we can send Zach and Sage over to Franny's and they can sleep over there. 

 

00:47:34    Rachel

Cody and I had that conversation, because I was like, yeah, Mila doesn't really sleep, and Sage is sound sensitive at the same level of Abey, so I'm just curious when Zach and Sage are going to end up at Sunbeam. 

 

00:47:46    Alyssa

So real. We'll report back how many days we made it all in the same room. 

 

00:47:52    Rachel

Oh man, I feel for you, because when Abel was a baby and things were really hard and we had to all be in the same room, I felt a lot of stress. 

 

00:48:01    Alyssa

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I'm just like trying to get everyone the most sleep that we can get. And it feels like there's no right answer. 

 

00:48:09    Rachel

No, and some child always needs something and has to make noise. 

 

00:48:13    Alyssa

Always. 

 

00:48:14    Rachel

Always. Also, you're giving like a gamer vibe right now with your headset and then the background too. Like you should be in like a swiveling computer chair on a PC from the 90s. 

 

00:48:24    Alyssa

On a PC. I feel that with headsets it feels real gamery to me. This is my brother's because I didn't know that we had to do this and so I left town without a microphone which was silly of me. I should just travel with it anyway just in case something comes up but I thought I had checked all the things off my to -do list and it turns out I had not. So I was like excuse me does anyone have anything that resembles a microphone in this house. And my brother was like, I have a headset. 

 

00:48:58    Rachel

I mean, came in clutch. 

 

00:49:01    Alyssa

Gamer vibes are here. It's so good. Who are we talking about today? 

 

00:49:05    Rachel

Okay, today we are talking about Dr. Mary Ann Little. 

 

00:49:13    Alyssa

Narcissism? 

 

00:49:14    Rachel

Yeah, this one was intense. 

 

00:49:18    Alyssa

So intense, it's actually like come up for me. Now I feel like I'm on the lookout for narcissism. 

 

00:49:23    Rachel

Me too. Because I thought of narcissism as this very singular and obvious thing. And then she blew that idea out of the water and then I was like, oh my gosh, how many narcissists am I hanging out with? 

 

00:49:38    Alyssa

100%. I have diagnosed so many humans where I'm like, oh, narcissists. 

 

00:49:44    Rachel

But like legit. And then when she was talking about, I know my kids aren't narcissists, but when she was talking about it, there was like this internal paranoia. Just because in my mind, it was just this like one picture of it. And then it's not that. 

 

00:50:02    Alyssa

No. The other day someone was telling me a story and I was like, well, that's what it's like to engage with a narcissist. I just diagnosed this person. Like, what am I doing? Ridiculous. Yeah, no, but I did find it really helpful in the like, all right, so how do we prevent this? What does that look like? And that idea, I have really taken this to heart in my parenting of like, I want them to know that they are unique, but not that they're above everything else. You're the most special thing in the whole world. Like that messaging, I think it is so prevalent. And I wonder, too, if it's that kind of pendulum swing from maybe a lot of us didn't hear anything about how great we are. So we are swinging that pendulum to like, we're going to tell you how incredible you are all the time. 

 

00:50:56    Rachel

Yeah. I think something that she had mentioned that was like, obviously, our kids should know that they're special to us, but not feel like they're the center of the universe. It should be kind of this thing where they're like, yeah, my parents love me a ton, but also, I still have to make my bed and be a kind human and all these things. Because I think, yeah, there has been a shift where we've gone so far the other way and we're constantly – like a kid draws a picture and we're like, oh my gosh, you're an artist, you know? Just like – 

 

00:51:23    Alyssa

Nice picture. It's like, it's really not. It's not even like –

 

00:51:27    Rachel

 It's actually – 

 

00:51:28    Alyssa

I can't tell what it is.

 

00:51:28    Rachel

 It's a piece of shit, actually. You know what I mean? 

 

00:51:31    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:51:32    Rachel

But that like desire to praise is so, so real. 

 

00:51:37    Alyssa

It's so real. And I, one of the things for me that's like a deep, I've been in part of my therapy for like literally years is trying to not need external validation for things to like feel like I'm enough and I'm valuable and I'm worthy without performance, right? Without doing certain things and reaching certain goals and whatever. And that like, I'm just enough. And spoiler alert, I'm not there yet. But I, boy do I wish I could get there. I think about that and how that plays into this too, that like so much of my worth comes from somebody else saying something to me, about me. Like about whether it's my appearance, whether it's like my accomplishments, whatever. I was a star student and I helped on jobs and I was president of student council and all these things. And in retrospect to try and feel worthy and of value and like I was enough and doing enough and being enough and turns out that stuff carries over into adulthood and I think about like how much that can play a role here and even outside of narcissism that I want my kids to-- the over praising of the accomplishment then breeds that like need for more external validation. 

 

00:53:07    Rachel

Yeah. Yeah. So like, I think for me, I connect this to things outside of narcissism too. Like narcissism is a disorder of the relationship to self. And that can also manifest in lots of different ways that aren't narcissism. And one of these is what you're describing, where like you need that external validation to feel like you have value as a human. Okay, guys, the audio won't show up, but the video will show Alyssa shoving a sandwich in her face as fast as she can to try to eat it while I'm talking and getting mayonnaise all over her face. I don't know if there's anything more classic than a mom rushing to eat a sandwich during an interview, talking to a mom who has to finish recording by a certain time to take both her kids to her annual physical. But anyway, this need for external validation, I think societally, are we creating narcissists? Because it's from day one, it's all this external validation and all these things from childhood carry into adulthood. I was putting on makeup in the car the other day, and I can't remember where we were going. And Cody was like, who are you putting that on for? And I was like, I don't know, I just don't want to go out and look tired. I'll probably like see somebody that I know or something. And he was like, okay, but are you putting it on for yourself or like, cause like, I don't care what you're, he never cares obviously. And I thought about it. The whole reason that I care about my appearance is primarily for other women to look at me and think like, okay, she's got her shit together. Look at her with her two kids and like, she's got makeup on. She's got decent clothes on. It's not for my husband and it's not for myself, which is pretty effed up. 

 

00:54:52    Alyssa

This has come up for me a lot also in therapy. I'm working on my body stuff, my relationship to my body and same. It's not for my husband. It's not even for me. It is primarily for other women. 

 

00:55:11    Rachel

Yeah, for me too. 

 

00:55:13    Alyssa

It's so bonkers, why do we do this to each other? 

 

00:55:16    Rachel

And it's not even that I want them to look at me and be like, oh, she's pretty. I want them to look at me and think that because of how I look that like, I'm a good mom. And I can balance being a working mom and a fun mom and all of, you know what I mean? 

 

00:55:31    Alyssa

I'm taking care of myself. Look, I'm practicing self -care, right? And like that narrative of like self -care is going to the gym or is whatever. And I don't believe that to be true at my core we talked about it in Tiny Humans, you know, that like part of the CEP Method is self -care and we talked about how that is not these like one -off things or,  going to the gym or whatever, that it is whatever you need to help your nervous system thrive, and I actually think I'm very good at that.

 

00:56:03    Rachel

 Yeah 

 

00:56:04    Alyssa

I think I'm very good at self -care, but I think other people's perception of self -care is that like you're taking care of yourself by eating certain foods, moving your body in certain ways, fitting into certain size clothes, and yeah, that's where I am right now. That's what I'm working on, and yeah, it's all for other women. 

 

00:56:28    Rachel

It is. And so then, the other day, I wasn't wearing makeup because I was like, whatever, I don't care. I'm tired. And I ran into somebody that I knew, and afterwards, Nora was like, mom, you were right. You always run into people when you don't have makeup on. And it's like, all right, so she's listening to this whole, my whole internal dialogue that's now becoming external with Cody. And that's gonna like shape her idea of how it's okay to show up in the world. And like, I don't want her to think that she can't show up in the world, like just however she is. 

 

00:56:59    Alyssa

A hundred percent. And I think this is also just a part of white supremacy is that like, how are you supposed to show up and look in different spaces and patriarchal of like, when I first started doing Tuesday Lives way back in the day, 2018 or whatever it was, I, you know, always for Tuesday Lives just show up in whatever I am. Sometimes I have makeup on and I've showered. Sometimes I haven't showered in three days. Whatever state I'm in on Tuesdays at 1230 is the state that I show up in. And at the very beginning, my mom used to say like, could you just like, can you shower? Could you just do something with your hair? And I was like, why? And she was like, because you're representing your company, like you're showing up on, and I was like, for sure, I'm always just gonna be me. The only thing I know how to be is me. But that messaging is still, I grew up with it, for sure. There were certain spaces where I was supposed to look put together. But then the same thing on the flip side, every time I put on makeup,  my dad would walk by and be like, what are you going to the prom? So I can't win. 

 

00:58:13    Rachel

You can't win. Either you're too dressed up or you're underdressed. I would get similar feedback from my own dad. So I think there's like some gender stuff wrapped up in that. 

 

00:58:25    Alyssa

But it's also like wear makeup, but don't look like you're wearing makeup. 

 

00:58:28    Rachel

Yeah, it has to look natural. 

 

00:58:30    Alyssa

You want natural? Here you go. 

 

00:58:32    Rachel

I'll give you natural. Doesn't look like this. 

 

00:58:35    Alyssa

Nope. 

 

00:58:35    Rachel

There's so much effort that goes into, just like the coloring of my hair, the waxing of my brows, the waxing of my mustache, just like all of it, none of this is natural. You know what I mean? And like I haven't had any work done, no judgment on people who have, but just the whole idea of natural, like it's not this. 

 

00:58:57    Alyssa

No. Yep. 

 

00:58:58    Rachel

You know?

 

00:58:58    Alyssa

Sure isn't. Sure isn't. But anyway, all this like external validation stuff has come up for me around this conversation with narcissism in general, that like narcissists are reliant on external validation. I was, I don't wanna really like get political on this to be honest, but I was having this conversation about how somebody I was talking to was like, why would Trump want a friend again? Like why would he want to like go through all the whatever of it? And I was like, well, I do believe that he's a narcissist also just diagnosing people left and right, but I do believe that he's a narcissist and I was like, so he has to.

 

00:59:42    Rachel

Yeah.

 

00:59:43    Alyssa

He needs the external validation and the praise in order to feel whole and I still don't think that he feels whole but the external praise is so crucial for him to wake up in the morning. 

 

01:00:02    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:00:04    Alyssa

And like, what a wild way to live. Like I just like was having compassion for narcissists. 

 

01:00:09    Rachel

Also like, yeah, how exhausting. 

 

01:00:12    Alyssa

So exhausting, so exhausting. And I have some older nieces and nephews like that are in the range of our book and a little bit older, the one we're writing now. And so I had three of them sitting down and Mila was taking a long nap. So I had like 45 minutes where I was just like, hey, I'm writing this book, can I ask y 'all some questions? And they were like, sure. The first question that one of them asked was, are you gonna tell our parents the answers? And I said, nope, I don't have to. And then they said, are you gonna put this in the book? And I was like, nope, I'm just curious about your perspective. But as I was asking questions, one of the things that I noticed was the confidence that one of them like moves through life with. And one of the questions I had asked them was if you were like at lunch or at a special or like in the hallway and you saw somebody being made fun of or being picked on you weren't doing it but you saw it would you say or do something? If so, what? And if you wouldn't, why not? And I was like, there's no wrong answer. And they like sat with it. And most of the kids in the group said, I know I should, but I wouldn't. Because I would be nervous about getting picked on or made fun of myself. And one of them was like, yeah.  I would say, hey, that's not kind. And if you have nothing better to do, picking on somebody for whatever it is, is not gonna make you feel better about yourself. And I was like, if you said that, what do you think would happen? This kid answered, I don't really care what would happen. And I was like, what do you mean you don't care what would happen? Like, are you nervous they'd pick on you. And this kid said, about what? Like and I was like, what if they said you were stupid and the kid said, but I'm not. And I was like, okay, what if they said that you were ugly or they didn't like your outfit or whatever and this kid was like, okay. I'm not ugly and I like my outfit. I don't care if they like it I was like, wow, how cool to move through the world with that confidence where this human doesn't need external validation. And then I was like, God, how do we build that? 

 

01:02:56    Rachel

I know, and like, that was not my personal experience. 

 

01:03:01    Alyssa

No, it is not my personal experience. 

 

01:03:04    Rachel

Same, same, which is becoming so apparent this time of year at the beach. Where I'm just like, hmm, how many bodies can I compare myself to and make myself feel like garbage? Yay.

 

01:03:18    Alyssa

 So real. So real. 

 

01:03:25    Rachel

And like, I'm looking at teenage girls, right? And it's like, yeah, I'm never going to look like that. I'm not a teenager. I've had two kids. I've nursed both of them. I had that body one time, which I still hated it then when I had it. 

 

01:03:38    Alyssa

Totally. 

 

01:03:39    Rachel

But I had that body and I'm not going to have it again. Logically, I know this and I'm like, okay, yeah, of course I'm not, my body's not gonna be the same. But then there's that part of me that's like, well, you're not good enough until it does look like that. So what are you gonna do about it? 

 

01:03:59    Alyssa

Totally. Yeah, it comes up for me in so many ways, like in that physical, in the like wanting to feel like I'm included, like I belong, and the things that I, over life, would do to feel that. And then the like enoughness feeling of like, am I enough? Am I doing enough? And really looking always externally for that. So I don't think I grew up with the narcissism piece of like, you're so special. But on the flip side of that, still grew up with like needing external validation because they would hear things like, you are so smart or that they were proud of me when I got all A's or when I hit certain accomplishments. And the only times people have ever commented on my body is when it has been thin. 

 

01:04:58    Rachel

Same, I mean, got the most compliments when I had cancer and didn't know it yet. And people were like, oh my gosh, you look so healthy. And I'm like, really? 

 

01:05:05    Alyssa

I have stage four cancer. 

 

01:05:06    Rachel

I don't feel healthy. Yeah, yeah. The other thing as we're talking about like enoughness is professionally like working from home and also having like our work I think is hard for especially like the older generations to really like understanding to quantify in a meaningful way and so then I'm just like you know like my dad will I'll be like yeah just yesterday my dad was like you packed for Beach Week I'm like no I'm probably gonna be packing Saturday and he's like, what are you doing tomorrow? I'm like, well, I have to go home and I have to record a podcast and I need to get a couple things squared away. And it's just like, dad, what do you think I'm doing all day? Like twiddling my thumbs? Like I am the primary caregiver for two kids who are not in school, do not have childcare. I am writing a book. I am working my job on top of writing a book and just like running my household, just like being a human in this world. 

 

01:06:03    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:06:03    Rachel

Yeah, and don't have time to pack until Saturday. 

 

01:06:06    Alyssa

Not sitting around with free time, let me tell you. 

 

01:06:07    Rachel

It's like unbelievable. And I love my dad so much, but there's this part of me that's like, I need him to realize. Part of me is like, no, you don't need him to think anything about your profession. But there's a part of me that wants him to be like, I see how hard you work. And even though you work remote and it's different than my experience of work, which is working obscene hours in an office. I see that you're working hard and that you have professional goals and and that you are more than a mom. I'm not gonna hear those words from him because first of all, he would never get emotionally vulnerable like that. But I want to feel like he understands that just because I work remote, it's not like a free for all. 

 

01:06:53    Alyssa

Yeah, that there's value in what you do. 

 

01:06:56    Rachel

Yeah, and that like I can be trusted to manage my time. I don't need to like clock into an office in order to be like a productive, successful human. 

 

01:07:04    Alyssa

For sure. where I find myself trying to prove myself in accolades, to my family especially, because this was my little pet project where I was like, oh, Alyssa's starting her own business, right, and I was just a solopreneur for a little, I mean, then I brought you on pretty quickly, but, and now it's grown to so much bigger than the two of us, but I feel like I have to prove that. I'm like, look, it's a real business. This is something we do. I, yeah, it's still that external validation. And as I was listening to my nieces and nephews chat, I was like, what I really want is to hone in on how to really raise kids who have that intrinsic, just knowing of who they are and confidence in who they are where they don't need somebody else's approval. 

 

01:08:07    Rachel

Yeah, I think like the ability to be,  I always want to be likable. I really want people to like me and like not everybody's gonna like you That's just not reality and that's okay. But like that's still a thing for me where I'm like, oh man, I hope they like me, you know. And I don't want I don't want my kids to feel that I want my kids to kind of be more like, okay this is who I am and some people are gonna love me and I'm not gonna be for some people. 

 

01:08:38    Alyssa

I think we do that in the social piece of emotional intelligence, right? Where there is such a focus in social emotional development on the social of how do you show up in the world and how are people gonna perceive you? And I think often at the expense of the individual. We teach kids to do that so young of like, put other people's comfort above your needs and how like, then it just ingrains this idea of other people's perception of you is more important than how you feel inside. 

 

01:09:19    Rachel

Yeah. And that, like, that is my thought process. And I mean, I've been working on this for years. 

 

01:09:27    Alyssa

Yeah, girls, same.

 

01:09:28    Rachel

 And so there are some times when I'm like, yeah, okay, if somebody doesn't like me like that's okay. But for the most part, I'm like no if you don't like me, let me convince you of why you should.

 

01:09:40    Alyssa

100 % there's this hang on, I'm gonna look this up..... Okay, there's this quote from the office where Pam says 'I hate the idea that someone out there hates me. I hate even thinking that Al -Qaeda hates me. I think they got to know me. They wouldn't hate me.' And I'm like it's so real, just like it's the inclusion and belonging piece, right? Like I want to feel like I am included and I belong in every space unless I choose I don't want to be a part of that space, but I don't want anyone else choosing that for me. 

 

01:10:16    Rachel

Which like, yes. 

 

01:10:18    Alyssa

It's ridiculous. 

 

01:10:19    Rachel

It's ridiculous. Like I am included and I do belong in the relationships that I want to belong in. And like, if somebody out there hates me, I need to be able to just be like, okay, yeah, bye. 

 

01:10:37    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:10:37    Rachel

But then there's part of me that's like - 

 

01:10:38    Alyssa

But not feeling included is like one of my biggest triggers. And I notice it now in my parenting. Like if I feel like Sage is not being included, I have to be super mindful of my reaction. 

 

01:10:51    Rachel

Okay, yeah. Okay, now I'm thinking of the things that like get me wound up, which are probably related to my own issues. 

 

01:11:00    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:11:02    Rachel

Yeah. And I think that because I think there's this idea that if people choose not to include me, then there's something fundamentally wrong with who I am. 

 

01:11:13    Alyssa

Yeah. It's about me. They don't want to be around me. 

 

01:11:16    Rachel

Right. 

 

01:11:16    Alyssa

Because I failed at something. 

 

01:11:19    Rachel

Mm -hmm. 

 

01:11:20    Alyssa

Mm -hmm. I wasn't enough at something. 

 

01:11:23    Rachel

Right. 

 

01:11:23    Alyssa

If I was funny enough, if I was whatever enough, they would want to be around me. Of course I'd be included. 

 

01:11:31    Rachel

Yeah, humor is - 

 

01:11:32    Alyssa

So obviously I failed. 

 

01:11:33    Rachel

Humor is one for me where I'm like, I'm not that funny. 

 

01:11:36    Alyssa

Same

 

01:11:36    Rachel

Like I'm more of a serious gal. 

 

01:11:39    Alyssa

Which is hilarious because actually I think you're hilarious. And like Zach and I - 

 

01:11:43    Rachel

Well, Zach brings out my humor. 

 

01:11:45    Alyssa

You guys have very similar humor. But we were talking about like, if we had the opportunity to just like do life with people in proximity and whatever. We could just like all be on a compound and doing life together. Who would we want to do life with? From like raising our kids together to once the kids are down, like hanging out and values and whatever. And you and Cody were like very much at the top of the list for both of us. Zach said he's like, I just have so much fun with them. Like they're so funny. We laugh all the time. 

 

01:12:19    Rachel

We do laugh when we're together. 

 

01:12:20    Alyssa

We do laugh quite a bit. And I I was like, for sure. And then obviously other shared values, the raising of the kids, yada, yada, yada. But it's funny that you don't feel like you're funny because for us, you are funny. 

 

01:12:32    Rachel

I think in my close relationships, I can be like, Cody and I laugh together all the time. I laugh a ton with you and Zach. I laugh a lot with my sister, but like in a bigger group of people, like that's not my - 

 

01:12:43    Alyssa

Sure, well, you're not a big group of people person. 

 

01:12:45    Rachel

No, I'm not, I can't do it. 

 

01:12:48    Alyssa

Yeah, it's too much like small talk for you where you're like, we're not going to get down and dirty in a large group about your trauma, like, I'm outie. 

 

01:12:57    Rachel

That's pretty much what it is. So I get insecure in a big group because I'm like, I'm not funny. And all I want to talk about are like kids, emotional development, emotional intelligence. And like, that's not what most people are down to chat about. So-- 

 

01:13:11    Alyssa

Or like random things, science related, we call you Dr. Rach.

 

01:13:15    Rachel

Research, PubMed, my latest discoveries. 

 

01:13:19    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:13:19    Rachel

Yeah. So I just, it's hard for me. I start to get insecure in a big hang like that because I'm like, well, I don't have much to bring to the table here. 

 

01:13:27    Alyssa

Sure. That makes sense to me. Yeah. I get that. 

 

01:13:33    Rachel

Like you and Zach and I and Cody have like, just things that go way back and like, it's easy to joke and be funny because, you know, we have all this shared life together. 

 

01:13:44    Alyssa

And you guys get silly. 

 

01:13:46    Rachel

Yeah, we do. Yeah. 

 

01:13:49    Alyssa

And you won't let your like silliness just fly with everybody. 

 

01:13:53    Rachel

No, no, cause we get weird. Like our, 

 

01:13:55    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

01:13:56    Rachel

It's like a private weirdness that doesn't come out in all spaces. 

 

01:14:02    Alyssa

Its vulnerable.

 

01:14:02    Rachel

Totally, it's vulnerable. And like, that's the other thing. What are people gonna think about our marriage if they see, you know what I mean? Cause like we've got all these crazy inside jokes. I'm super weird, he's super weird. They're gonna be like, what the heck is going on over there, you know? So it's just like. 

 

01:14:17    Alyssa

And I love it. I love it so much. I feel like Zach hasn't found in Vermont, like in our friend group, the people he can be like weird with. 

 

01:14:30    Rachel

So does he just get quiet? 

 

01:14:32    Alyssa

Yeah, exactly. Or he'll talk about surface things or, you know, whatever. But that like true full self, I don't feel like he's found that. Yeah. We really veered from narcissism, but I think it's still focused on the like external component. 

 

01:14:50    Rachel

Relationship to self and how your value as a human, how you view your value as a human and what makes that up and is it coming from you or do you need other people to tell you that you're valuable? 

 

01:15:03    Alyssa

Yeah. And my like big takeaway in this for like, all right, what am I going to do with this information has really been about like, how do I make sure that I'm like acknowledging effort over end product so that they're learning less about like you getting this accomplishment. What feels more important is that you are continuing to work hard to figure something out, coming back to the drawing table and blah, blah, blah. And just the other day, there's this puzzle on Sage's iPad that he hasn't been able to figure out. And every time he gets there, he gets frustrated. He'll say, I'm getting warm, which is like what happens when he's frustrated. He gets warm. 

 

01:15:48    Rachel

Same, Sage, I get hot. 

 

01:15:50    Alyssa

It's so cute. And he, I was driving, and I was like, buddy, you have a choice to make. You can exit out of that puzzle and try something else, or you can keep trying. I can't help you right now while I'm driving. And he said, he was like, I'm feeling warm and I'm so mad. I have to stay on this puzzle and I'm so mad and you're not even helping me and then he was like you can't be in the car, right? Like just--

 

01:16:14    Rachel

His classic 

 

01:16:15    Alyssa

Classic. You can't be in the car. And I've been told a few times today I can't be where I am. And so and then like a few minutes later he was like, mom, I kept trying it and trying it and even when it wasn't working. I kept trying it and then I figured it out. I was like sick, what he focused on there was I kept trying it. 

 

01:16:37    Rachel

Yeah 

 

01:16:39    Alyssa

And I was like, okay, some of this is sticking, but that's what I want him to know. It's like, it's all about the journey, man. Like it's not the end result. 

 

01:16:48    Rachel

Yeah, which is so hard to instill. Like I had this conversation with Nora about her grades. So her grades were mediocre this year, which I expected because she skipped a grade, but she was feeling upset about them. And so I'm trying to explain to her, like what's most important to me is that you work hard and put effort in and like are respectful to your teacher and ask for help from your teacher when you need it. And then wherever your grades fall, we can make a plan if you need more help. But I grew up with like, you need to get straight A's kind of a thing. And so did Cody and Cody is more like, well, what are we going to do about these grades? Like she really needs to be getting better grades than this. And I'm kind of seeing it more like, well, it's a process. And she skipped a grade and she's also not old enough to where these grades are gonna matter. And so what I'm trying to instill is like, work really hard and do your best work and that's good enough. But it's hard, you know? 

 

01:17:47    Alyssa

Yeah, and I love the like mention of asking for help. 

 

01:17:51    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:17:52    Alyssa

One of the things in the conversation with my nieces and nephews that came up was the neurodivergent nieces and nephews were nervous about asking for help, and people making fun of them. And as we broke it down, they were already feeling like there were things like, like the accommodations that had to be made meant that they weren't smart, capable. Yeah. And so then asking for help kind of further doubled down on that. And I was thinking about how like, when we present things as neurodivergent and neurotypical then it's like here's what's quote 'normal neurotypical' and then here is the other and that then we end up having these spaces where kids are not able to ask for help but I think it's bigger than that where they just don't get to be themselves and know that there isn't one right way to be and everything else is wrong but rather like everybody's brain and body works differently and we're gonna help figure out how yours works and provide the the right space, tools, et cetera. 

 

01:19:05    Rachel

Yeah, like it's okay for your needs to be different. 

 

01:19:09    Alyssa

Beeners is crying. All right, let's wrap this up. 

 

01:19:12    Rachel 

Okay. 

 

01:19:13    Alyssa 

Yeah, go ahead, finish that. 

 

01:19:15    Rachel

Yeah, I just want my kids to know that like their needs might be different than their peers and they're still valid. And - 

 

01:19:22    Alyssa

Well, I guess it's that though, that like everybody's needs are different and it's just figuring out what are your needs rather than like your peers have these normal needs and your needs are different. Everybody has different needs, exactly. everybody has different needs and whatever works for your brain and body is what your brain and body needs to thrive. 

 

01:19:40    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:19:40    Alyssa

But I think it's often presented and schools are really designed for neurotypical humans. 

 

01:19:46    Rachel

Asking for help is an area of growth for Nora. Something that we're working on her teacher brought up that she will avoid asking for help and go to a classmate that she knows understands the concept and have the classmate help her. 

 

01:19:58    Alyssa

What's she afraid of? 

 

01:20:00    Rachel

Attention being brought to the fact that she needs help. 

 

01:20:04    Alyssa

And like feeling like people will think that she's dumb or what? 

 

01:20:09    Rachel

Yeah, just standing out as being like not being able to do it. 

 

01:20:13    Alyssa

Got it. 

 

01:20:14    Rachel

Yep. So we're working on that. And that is a process. 

 

01:20:17    Alyssa

It's so real though. Like that makes sense to me. That fear of like, they're going to notice that I can't do it. Like, oh, school. There's so much that comes and the social dynamics of all of it is just so complex. 

 

01:20:31    Rachel

It is, and it's like, these are skills that are important for her to have, but also it's physically painful for me to know that she's so emotionally uncomfortable at school. It's so hard as a parent. 

 

01:20:44    Alyssa

100%. And that knowing that she's living in that space of insecurity, right? Of what are other people gonna think of me when we're still in the space of working on our own insecurities? And it's like, oh, like that projection of, we know what that feels like. We know how painful it is. We're still working on it. And now she's entering into it and allowing her to be in that. I hate it. 

 

01:21:08    Rachel

I hate it too. And it's so important for her. And I also hate it. 

 

01:21:12    Alyssa

Cheers. Yeah. Oh man. Well, I hope folks head on out and dive into Dr. Mary Ann Little's book, because I hope we are all doing our part to try and not raise narcissists here. For all the humans around us, not just for your tiny humans, but who they end up having as bosses, or partners, or coaches, or peers, whatever, who they get to interact with, who their president is. 

 

01:21:45    Rachel

I knew you were gonna drop that. I knew it! 

 

01:21:51    Alyssa

Oh, irresistible. 

 

01:21:53    Rachel

Oh man, all right, well, thanks for doing this with me, I'll see you in two days. 

 

01:21:57    Alyssa

Sounds good. Love you. Bye. 

 

01:21:58    Rachel

Love you bye.

 

01:21:58    Alyssa

Last para kajabi:

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