Why Time in Nature Matters for Kids with Pediatricians Dr. Tandon and Dr. Glassy
0:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village and today I got to hang out with two pediatricians to chat about why time in nature matters for kids and how do you overcome those barriers to outdoor time. I hung out with Pooja Tandon and Danette Glassy, both doctors who work with children and have done research in this space. Dr. Tandon is a general pediatrician and researcher at the Seattle Children's Hospital, an Associate Professor at the University of Washington School of Medicine, and the Director of Health at the Trust for Public Land. She has published widely on the importance of physical activity, outdoor time, and nature contact for health. And she lives in the Seattle area with her husband and two kids. And Dr. Glassy is a Primary Care Pediatrician and Child Advocate. She's the Co -Founder and Board President of the nonprofit Best Start Washington and leads its Project Nature initiative, a program to support pediatric medical professionals as they encourage children to spend time in nature. She is the co -editor of Caring for Our Children. Dr. Glassy lives in the Seattle area and enjoys exploring nature in the Pacific Northwest with her two grandchildren. And what was so relieving about this episode is that, you know, I am not, I would not call myself one with nature. I like to be outside, like that's fun, but I'm like more outsidey than outdoorsy. And I feel like they make this so accessible, whether you're living in a city or you're living in a rural space, whether you love to hike a mountain or you want to like chill in your backyard with your kids. It just felt so much more accessible for me than a lot of the messaging around like getting outside or the 1000 hours outside or whatever can feel so overwhelming. So thank you to Dr. Tandon and Dr. Glassy for this and let's dive in.
00:02:05 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans, with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:02:27 Alyssa
Awesome. Awesome. How did you two meet?
00:02:32 Danette
Throughout my practice, I've wanted to extend child health and well -being out to the community. So with a bunch of other pediatricians, we made a nonprofit that was able to bring in grants and mostly had worked on early childhood, child care, Head Start, things like that, bringing in grants to help with health and safety. And first ran across Pooja with a CDC grant about healthy active living and targeting children in child care, holding up their child care providers, getting messaging to parents and and Pooja had been working in the outdoor education field and then we pivoted in our non -profit to working on nature access for kids as you know a very important thing for our whole group seeing that kids weren't getting outside and Pooja had been doing the research in that area and we needed help in creating a program of tools to give to other pediatricians to use in their practice. So that's how we first came across each other.
00:03:41 Alyssa
That's so funny. And how long have you been working together?
00:03:45 Pooja
It's probably been, gosh, maybe close to maybe 10 years that we've met each other or been in this, you know, similar circles. But I would say about, you know, maybe five or six years that we've been really focusing on this work around nature access and the importance of nature for children's health. And then a couple of years ago, we were approached by the American Academy of Pediatrics to help distill what we've learned as pediatricians and to look at the research and put out this book, Digging Into Nature.
00:04:20 Alyssa
Yeah, rad. I wanna dive right into this. So I live in Burlington, Vermont, where people really love nature and being outdoors. And I did not grow up as a human who loved being outside. I mean like, well, so I'm one of five kids and we would just like go play in the backyard, but here in Vermont, it's like you're going for a hike up a mountain and I'm like, no, I'm not. So I think a lot of Vermonters tuning in will be like really seen by this episode, but also want to speak to the folks who, like me, are like, I'm not going to hike up a mountain, so help me understand how to be in nature without hiking up a mountain. And I have, you know, two young kids, right? So I'm really excited to learn, like, what the research is showing and really why it matters. So if we could start there, like, why is it important for children to spend time outside?
00:05:15 Pooja
Well, there are so many reasons, and one thing I'll maybe start by saying is that we are strong believers in this idea of nearby nature, that while there's amazing, wonderful nature out there in the wilderness and National Parks, and we would love for people and children to be out there. We believe that children and families need nature near where they live, where they go to school, where they work, so that they can get those daily doses of it. And why they need nature. So, I mean, we come at it from the standpoint of all the things that pediatricians care about, and that's children's health and well -being. So there's research and evidence to show that that nature is good for our physical health, you know, children's physical health, children of all ages, because they get to move out there and get a range of health benefits from that movement, from the nature itself, that the nature is good for their mental health and for their development and learning.
00:06:15 Alyssa
All right, let's dive into this. So my research is in building emotional intelligence in kids and I wanna chat a bit about the mental health components here of. What does your research show around the mental health benefits and why?
00:06:32 Danette
Maybe I'll start and then Pooja can chime in with the hard evidence. But, you know, as pediatricians we're really dedicated to this idea of building healthy children, the prevention aspect of the work we do, and that's what's so compelling about Nature Access. There's lots of people who use nature to maybe treat mental health conditions or upset, whatnot. But really, a lot of the power of nature is in that early childhood and young children spending time out in nature, being able to stretch themselves to be able to promote some developmental milestones. And yes, there's the motor milestones and the language milestones, but we also see fitting right into this building emotional intelligence and healthy mental health development is relational health. When kids are outside with other kids building that social cachet, when parents are out there experiencing the awe and wonder together, and the spark of curiosity that nature provides, spurring that on, And then kids being left with free play, being able to pursue what sparks their interest and joy and awe and follow that is, nature's a very powerful setting for that, much more powerful than their set of toys inside, let's say. And I'll hand it off to Pooja to kind of talk about how that translates into what the evidence is showing.
00:08:08 Pooja
Yeah, when we, you know, a few years ago, I worked with a team on looking at kind of all of the literature we could find, the scientific literature on nature contact and health, children's health. And mental health was actually one of the strongest research categories where there's increasing evidence and good evidence that when children are in nature, or even near nature, so this is this sort of refers to the kind of different types of ways that children can get nature. So it could be being in parks, being in forests, having trees on your street. Sometimes even views of nature can be good for things like decreasing stress levels, so cortisol, decreasing symptoms of anxiety, of depression, and then behavioral health too. There have been studies in children who have ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, where, for example, they spend some time in a in a forested area and then in an urban kind of noisy street and the researchers find that they're able to focus better, concentrate better, really have fewer of those symptoms of ADHD after spending some time in natural settings.
00:09:19 Danette
I'd like to jump in also and just add that when parents and caregivers are outside in nature, they are enhancing their own health and well -being as well and becoming more powerful caregivers and parents, healthier mental health for them as well. And again, when that's happening for the parent or the caregiver, that translates down to the child who is in a more safe, stable, nurturing environment that grows that resilience that we wanna see for healthy mental health development.
00:09:54 Alyssa
Yeah, I love this so much. I'm thinking personally as a parent and as a teacher, I'm a more regulated parent and teacher when I'm outside. And those days where I'm like, oh, we've been stuck inside or even right now where the sun sets so early right now for us, it is so painful. It's like, oh, you really feel the effects on a regulation standpoint from being inside more. And it, I, my first year teaching, I was teaching, uh, 17, three and four year olds. And I have like this distinct memory of like a full day where we were stuck inside and my co -teacher and I just being like, never again, we will never, ever again be inside all day because it's so much harder to coexist with one another without the regulation support of nature, as you were talking about stimulation of city to outdoors, where you're in a forest or in nature. I am thinking about this, and I'm curious if it's the effects of... What is the effects of nature, and what is the decrease of stimuli that we experience when we aren't just in nature, whether you're inside or you're in a busy cityscape. Is it the added stimuli that you experience in those spaces that you then are reducing by going outside? Or are there nature effects that we're getting? Does that make sense?
00:11:24 Pooja
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think the benefits of nature on our health come through a few different pathways. And, you know, it might depend on the health benefit that we're looking at, but I'll talk through a few of them and it's probably a combination. Some of it is like what we're actually doing when we're in nature, when we're in a park or a trail, and that's the ability, and children especially, to move their bodies, have that freedom to run and climb and jump in ways that are not possible indoors. In that case, I think it's the space and the setting. And to the point about, you know, is it really just the, you know, can you exercise in a big gym and get the same benefits? Well, especially in adults, there is research on this idea of green exercise, that when we, you know, run on a trail or walk outdoors versus on a treadmill indoors, that there are, you're moving maybe the same amount, but the additional benefits to our mental health, to restoring our cognitive capacities, you get more of that boost when you're outside. side. So there is something about the nature itself. And, you know, there are studies that have looked at, there are substances that trees emit, they're called phytoncides. And these are, you know, often talked about in the context of forest bathing, or this idea of really being immersed in nature. But these substances that when we inhale them, you know, has been found to boost our immune system. You know, the actual immune cells are working harder because of these benefits. So, there is something to the nature itself. And then, you know, finally, things like air pollution or mitigating the impact of noise or heat, you know, when we've had these really hot days, the shade that the trees provide, whether it's on a schoolyard or a city street. So, I think there's a combination of things, but there is something to the actual vegetation, the features of the nature itself.
00:13:27 Alyssa
Yeah, that's so cool. That's what I was intrigued to learn more about that from the immune boosting. What are the biggest barriers for folks? If we're like, okay, yeah, nature's great. Let's rock and roll. What are the barriers you find for folks getting out into nature?
00:13:45 Danette
Well, I'm so glad that you sort of brought that up, you know, contrasting the city street versus being in a park or green space. But as we started this work, that's what we've learned so much from parents and from the other pediatric caregivers and clinics that are trying to bring this message. Every parent would love to do this, love to spend the day out in nature or caregivers, right? Like you said, it's a little bit easier. And yet there are many barriers to it. And access, if we think about living in an urban setting, access can be one because maybe not a park nearby, maybe certainly not a big backyard to go explore. But we've learned a lot of things from our work about accessing nature that you can. So what are the parks that are near you? Are there green spaces on top of buildings if you're in a real urban, you know, high rise kind of setting? How about the schoolyards that are near you? We also really encourage people to go check out the libraries near them and the places of worship near them, even if they're not attendees, because sometimes there's green space that's open to the public, and the schoolyards are sometimes available after hours for people to come and spend some time. And then if you're really landlocked and not a lot of nature, think about what you can bring into your home. Can you have pots of plants? Can you have a fishbowl? Can you read about nature? Can you observe the clouds and the birds from your window? Really thinking outside the box and planning for those rare times when maybe you can escape the city and and get to a safe park, a safe space to spend time in nature. Access is one of those barriers. There's many more though.
00:15:41 Pooja
Yeah, you know, the other common ones we hear are time and weather. And I can touch on both of those briefly. I mean, the thing with weather and really can be, you know, cold and rainy weather like in my part of the country, it could be extreme heat in other parts of the country. And we've talked about in our book and subscribe to this idea that, you know, there's no such thing as bad weather, just you need the right clothing choices, you need the right gear. And you know, with like, of course, there may be some rare extreme circumstances, but otherwise, I think managing the amount of time you you spend outdoors planning for it with the right gear. Sometimes that gear is not easy to get. We understand that. I mean, you know, some it can be really expensive getting some kinds of waterproof and cold gear. So there we have some suggestions in there too. And maybe unique to each community, but kind of the the sites where you could get free or low cost lending libraries, hand -me -downs, organizations that might lend out gear. So really thinking about, if you can stay warm and dry and comfortable, you're probably more likely to enjoy your time out there. And then with time, really thinking about what are the things we tend to do indoors that we can bring outdoors? And that might be reading and homework and art or music lessons, play dates, celebrations, you know, meeting with others. So just kind of really, really thinking about, you know, how do you tap into your community, your village, to bring more of those indoor activities outdoors.
00:17:22 Alyssa
I love this from an accessibility standpoint. I, when I first started teaching, was teaching in New York City and now I live in Burlington, Vermont, and So I've seen like kind of two different ends of this spectrum in a lot of ways. And I grew up in rural Western New York. And I think from an accessibility standpoint, what I'm curious about too, in this pairs in with time is how much time do we really need to look at like benefits? If you're like, okay, I'm bringing my kids to school and we've got the rat race in the morning to get to school and then they're gonna be at school and we're coming home we're doing the after -school stuff and hustle to dinner and whatnot, I think can feel like, oh man, where do you fit it in? How much time are we really looking for here when we break? Of course, spending all day outside might be great, but what do we really need for benefits?
00:18:15 Danette
I'd like to tee this up for Pooja to talk about the research on this, but start with, You know, even the Surgeon General now has called out how stressed out parents and caregivers are with the crunch of time and feeling like there's an unlimited number of things that you need to provide for your children, experiences and classes and whatnot, and that you may somehow slight their growth and development if you don't participate in all that. And so I think it's first incumbent on all of us to think about parents and caregivers and give them permission and in fact encourage them to drop some of the activities. You don't need all that and in fact it's not good for anybody if children don't have downtime, free to play, access to nature, all of these things. So number one is permission to drop their busy days and then accessing, even when you're in a car on the way to school and whatnot, being sure to look out the window, watch the trees go by, be sure to remark on the season, look at the sky, start to roll down the window and smell what do you smell outside? Is that different than last summer that we could smell? You know, those kinds of things, accessing it on the go. Pooja, maybe you could share also some more about time outdoors and nature time in particular.
00:19:43 Pooja
Yeah, you know, the question of like what dose of nature or how much daily nature do we need? There's not like a clear, like here's a number of minutes like universal recommendation that I can offer, but there are a few kind of guidance tips that we can suggest. So there is good evidence and guidance on how much physical activity children need And children, kind of school -age children, five and up, need at least 60 minutes a day of moderate to vigorous activity, so where their heart is pumping and they're moving, and that's been linked to good physical health, to good mental health. So to me, that's a starting point, that if children need to move at least 60 minutes a day, and the little ones, too, certainly preschoolers, at least that much, why not have all of it be outdoors, if possible, or at least most of it, you know? So that that's sort of one way to think about it in terms of you know, there's there's some evidence in adults that who spent 120 minutes a week outdoors that was linked to good health benefits. So that's, you know, it's a little bit less than that. But again, getting to this idea that that maybe even 20, 30 minutes a day could could confer some benefits. And then there's some research that's looking at vision health. We didn't talk about this earlier, but large studies out of Asia, especially that children who spend even 40 minutes a day outdoors have benefits to their vision health, that it might delay them needing glasses for distance vision for myopia. So to me, like putting all of that together, to me, that means that children need nature every day. They need some number of minutes every day. And if we can strive for 20, 30, 40, 60 minutes, ideally a day, I mean, that would be wonderful. And if we think about, you know, where children spend a lot of their daytime hours, especially once they're about, you know, two, three years old, between preschools or early childhood settings and school, I think it's possible. I think it's possible between recess, between after -school activities, so that it's not feeling like a burden or another thing that parents or caregivers need to carve time out of everything else that they're trying to juggle.
00:22:06 Alyssa
Yeah, I think that is helpful to think about, like, how do we share this throughout the day, you know, just from a practical reality standpoint for folks. What does it look like for the like pushback, right? When you are, you come home and you're like, all right, we're going outside to play. And the kid's like, have fun. I'm not going, see you later. It's cold out there. I don't want to go, or I want to whatever. And you see that pushback, or kids who really dig their heels in about going. I was just thinking actually about a friend of mine whose kid was, they were saying like, all right, we're headed outside. We've been in for a while this morning. We're gonna go outside and play. And the entire time that the child was getting ready, he's five, was just like yelling, you're forcing me to do this. I don't wanna go. You're forcing me, as he's like getting his stuff out and going outside, right? It's like, yeah, we're all having a great time going outside. And it felt really meme-able. And so curious for your thoughts on that, when there's that like kid pushback to going, is it like a, yeah, get through this. And then once we're out there, things will likely get easier because of the benefits of nature. Or do you have thoughts or suggestions?
00:23:26 Danette
I think every parent, you know, everything you want to do as a parent is triply hard if the child is being contrary about it. And so as a barrier and even, you know, let's throw in the teenagers who are really stuck to their screens and not willing to get outside. You know, the first part of that is just to understand what is it that they don't like about it. You know, could it be that they haven't been able to, depending on their age and developmental level, but maybe they haven't been able to articulate that their boots are too small for them and it hurts, or they're getting cold in the coat that they have or needed gloves or hat or something. So comfort, you know, kind of exploring that for sure, making, running through all of that, just like newborns where their baby's crying, are you hungry? Are you wet? Are you tired? You gotta, you gotta think of what it could be. And then, you know, some incentive, depending again on that, maybe four, five, six year old talking about the anticipation. So building it up throughout the day. You know, when you, when we get home from school, remember we were gonna go look for dinosaurs and see if there's any evidence of dinosaurs at the park or in our backyard or wherever you're headed and whatever their interest is. And then of course, when you get out there, really follow through, right? Do the pretend play with them for a while, get them all started and into it. And certainly then compliment them for getting out there. The reverse is also true. Sometimes my kids, it wasn't worth going outside because they wouldn't come inside. You know, it was like the tantrum we're gonna have when I need to get them back inside is not worth it. And again, the anticipation of it, you know, when the clock gets to here, we got to go in and get ready for nap or dinner or whatever it's going to be, or school. I'll give you another warning before we have to do that. And when we get inside, we're going to X, Y, and Z. I think that anticipation. Now, every child is different though. And kind of as a parent or a caregiver, you kind of have to learn what's going to work for them and what are their interests and exploit that. And take a minute, you know maybe that kid who didn’t want to go out side is just sick of putting on all those clothes and maybe say, I know we can be really adventurous. Let's go outside first and then we'll put the clothes on. Cause you know, then they'll maybe be a little uncomfortable and want to put them on, you know, just being creative and silly, joyful, you know, all of those tools, meeting the kid where they're at and understanding their particular interests. Yes, Pooja.
00:26:24 Pooja
And I was going to add something that worked well for my family is bringing friends along. And especially, I think, when they get to a certain age, and that might be, again, different based on personalities, but especially as they were getting to that tween, teen years, the activities that they used to love doing were not that fun, or the first question was like, who else is coming, or who's gonna be there? And so if we made a plan to hike with another family that had children of similar ages, that was a draw. they were they were up they would do anything if you know if there are some of their best friends were going to be there or um snacks you know bringing like the the favorite snacks along could
00:27:06 Alyssa
Always. So many snacks so many snacks.
00:27:12 Pooja
And I think for some of you know as the kids get older um really exploring like like what it what it is I mean maybe you know they don't they don't want to go for a hike but they'd be up for a different activity, they want to go golfing with you or something, or that's what happened. Something that happened with my son was that he discovered golfing as an older teenager and that's something that I had no interest in, no experience. But we were like, you know, you could take some lessons and if this gives us an activity for us to do together, and then I know other families have found those types of connections over things that their growing child has shown some interest in.
00:27:52 Alyssa
I love it. I find with our family routine is so key. If it's built in, and same with the teacher, when I was teaching, if it was built into our routine of after snack, we get ready, we head outside, it becomes an expectation and there was just so much less pushback and same with at home. If this is a part of our routine, we go to the farmer's market every Saturday in the summer when it's open. And my little guy knows that that's coming, right? And so on Saturdays after we get done with breakfast, he knows we've got a little bit of time to play in the backyard while we get stuff ready to head down to the farmer's market. And having it as a part of our routine made it so much – there was so much less pushback. It was just like baked in for him, less questions there. I also have found – I had like a flashback to being an infant teacher and getting seven babies ready to go outside. I was teaching in the Boston area at the time. It was winter. Getting seven babies in snow gear and everybody's melting, right? Everybody's crying. It's like a total disaster. And you're trying all the things. We're singing. We're whatever. But ultimately, by the time we're headed outside, there are a number of kids who are not having it. And we would get outside and there were so many days where I'd be like, oh, was it worth the like, was the juice worth the squeeze? You know, like, and then we'd get outside and things would like calm for a little bit and we're like, okay, it was worth it. It's worth it to even just switch up getting out of the classroom and doing something else really like was helpful. And I would need that like reminder for myself that getting out might be a challenge sometimes with the gear or I'm thinking of humans who have sensory sensitive kids where like the tactile sensitivities of getting the gear on or getting sunscreen on or whatnot is a whole thing in and of itself. And navigating that from a sensory perspective can be challenging. And then once you're out. Is the juice is usually worth the squeeze. It's just getting there that, yeah, I love different creative ideas and thinking for our teachers who are tuning in for folks in our Seed Cert community, we have a playful transitions guide for ways to navigate these transitions playfully that can be helpful for you, like transitioning from one spot to the other, transitioning inside to outside or vice versa, that teachers can snag as well. This is so helpful and so nice to think about. I think for me, one of my biggest takeaways is start somewhere. If you have not been getting outside at all with your kids, start with five minutes or step outside and just look at the sky. Talk about the shapes in the clouds, right? That it doesn't have to be a three -mile hike to be worth it. That there's benefit in just getting out there in whatever capacity you can right now. So thank you. Is there anything else you want to leave folks with today?
00:30:56 Pooja
One thing that we didn't touch on is screens or screen time and a challenge that families are facing, you know, all day, every day, with all of us on screens. And one thing that we talk about in this book is this idea of green time, and as an alternative, as a strategy for increasing time in nature. And so I love what you said about the routines, and I think that's such a key, whether it's a school or a parent, but often families are now moving towards, or as pediatricians we talk to them about having rules and guidance around screen time. So yeah, we also want to encourage this idea of like building in daily green time and thinking about where in a child's schedule or a day that that can fit in because of all the health promoting benefits for children and adults.
00:31:51 Danette
And I guess I would like to loop back around to that idea of where your child is during the day, child care or their schools, and take a went to look at the outdoor space that they have. Schools are typically pretty underfunded, childcare even worse. And so what can you do as a parent or a concerned maybe relative of the child to support that space in becoming greener? As we were researching for the book around the country and even some federal grants to states about greening up schoolyards and childcare, care, even small grants can help an area become more green and more of a natural kind of playground so that your child, your grandchild, your niece, nephew can have a little more green space and certainly support that in your community, any actions that are greening up childcare and schoolyards.
00:32:48 Alyssa
That greening up here for it. Your book, Digging Into Nature: Outdoor Adventures for Happier and Healthier Kids is available now, folks. Go snag that bad boy and dive into more of these strategies in the book. Pooja and Danette, thank you so much for chatting and sharing this work with us. We could all use some more regulation in our life and nature's a great way to access it.
00:33:16 Danette
Thank you so much, Alyssa. This has been great.
00:33:19 Pooja
Yeah, thank you.
00:33:20 Alyssa
Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.
00:33:24
[Music]
00:33:30 Alyssa
We are in the dark, dark days of it getting dark so early. And I am not a great parent during the winter, so, help.
00:33:44 Rachel
It's so hard. No, I can't. I also am struggling to acclimate to the darkness and like my kids are dysregulated by it.
00:34:00 Alyssa
It sets us all off. Like literally by the time we got to dinner last night, cause normally we come home from school and play outside. And I love everybody more when we're outside than I do when we're inside, just like in all of my life. It just, the world feels easier outside. And then when Sage is like being a siren and whatever, it doesn't echo like it does inside, right? Like, oh, it's so much more manageable. And in these months where like we get home and he's like, I don't wanna go outside, it's dark. And I'm like, yeah, that's fair. Like, I've got nothing for you. And I lost it last night. Sorry, I lost it. Yeah. Well, I was, you know what? Let me give myself a little credit. I was very close to losing it. And I was like, Sage, I need you to move away from my body right now. I need you to stop making a siren noise in my face. And I just need a little bit of space from you. And then he came closer and kept doing it.
00:35:06 Rachel
Oh, no.
00:35:08 Alyssa
And I abruptly got up from where I was and walked away and shut the bathroom door and held it shut. And then he started to cry, obviously. And instead of like, I'm going to walk away to calm my body. No, none of that. I just abruptly went and shut the door and held it. And I, in the moment was like, this isn't what's going to be most helpful, but the only other thing I have in this moment is worse. So we're just going to ride this out.
00:35:39 Rachel
I think that probably was the most helpful, honestly.
00:35:43 Alyssa
Yeah, he would have, I think, benefited from me being like, I need to go calm my body and then I'll be back. And instead, I like -
00:35:51 Rachel
Sure, that's ideal.
00:35:52 Alyssa
Correct. That would have been most helpful.
00:35:54 Rachel
That's not where you were living.
00:35:55 Alyssa
Nope. Nope. And I said nothing, which I've really learned through living with my husband for over a decade of like, when I want to say everything, I need to say nothing.
00:36:11 Rachel
Yeah, same.
00:36:15 Alyssa
So that's what Sage got last night. And then in repair and like reconnecting with him, I was like, hey, bud, I'm still learning how to take care of my body and feel calm when it gets dark outside so early. And I'm gonna try and figure out some things that I can do so that I can be kind to you, even when it's dark out. And he said, that sounds like a great plan.
00:36:44 Rachel
We made a grave mistake with our kids last night. We thought it would be fun, funsies, making memories to go to a Bowdoin College basketball game with our friends that started at 6:30.
00:37:01 Alyssa
Wow, why?
00:37:03 Rachel
Because I feel depressed in the dark.
00:37:05 Alyssa
Because I'm a fun mom. I'm a fun mom.
00:37:08 Rachel
I'm a cool mom. Yeah, not so cool last night. Actually, I did manage to stay like pretty calm. But okay, so first of all, when we were leaving, and it was dark at 5:30. Abel's like, Mama, it's dark. Why aren't we going to bed? Like, good question. Why are we going out right now? Thought it would be fun. Um, so the game actually went pretty well. It was the ride home where things really went off the deep for our oldest, starting with we wouldn't let her use our phone. And then the antagonizing of Abel started and then it ended. It all came to like a culmination of Cody and I like letting Nora know that she can't antagonize Abel and her being like, you can't see what I'm doing. What do you have eyes in the back of your head? You have no idea what I'm doing back here. I had to just kind of like disassociate a little bit. I had to go into say nothing strategy. And eventually I did say like out loud for the kids to hear, it seems like our kids are not ready for nighttime activities. Just left it at that.
00:38:22 Alyssa
Keep your ass together over here.
00:38:24 Rachel
And I thought like, I expected Abel to be the one to visit. Yeah, me too. Because usually that's like cup filling for Nora, but I think it's connected back to, I had mentioned yesterday in our team meeting, she's having, like she's crying at drop -off again.
00:38:40 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:38:41 Rachel
And she's having anxiety about her seating arrangement at school. She's sitting in between two girls who are really talkative and they talk over her to talk to each other and she's afraid that her teacher will think that she's part of the talking and getting in trouble is like a trigger for her. So I think she's just like highly stressed in general right now.
00:39:02 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:39:03 Rachel
Because when I was like, Nora, I thought that that game would be fun for you. She went into this whole like monologue about how she was stressed about her seating arrangement, how she had felt left out at recess, how her friends hadn't believed her at the basketball game when she said there were only two halves and not four quarters. Like there were all of these things that had been happening over the course of the last several days that were contributing to her just like completely losing it.
00:39:33 Alyssa
She needed an exhale.
00:39:34 Rachel
Yeah, she needed, I don't know, she needed to shout at us about how we don't have eyes in the back of our head. I think like she just...
00:39:43 Alyssa
Yeah, it's not about the chai, right? Like that was her volcano eventually just erupts, you know? And like, gosh, I feel that way.
00:39:51 Rachel
Because she'll suppress for her friends and her teachers.
00:39:54 Alyssa
And then over days, right? To have like these things all add up and then it's this little thing and that little thing.
00:40:00 Rachel
Over days.
00:40:00 Alyssa
Yeah, totally, totally. I do this with Zach where I'm like, okay, this little thing doesn't matter. Just let it go, it doesn't matter. That the pool that we use for the summer, this is like dog pool that we got from Amazon that I love, that it is laying in the backyard and if it doesn't get cleaned and put away, it's gonna get ruined.
00:40:25 Rachel
It's gonna rip.
00:40:26 Alyssa
Correct. And I'll be like, you know what? Just let it go. Like Alyssa, you can deal with it the next time we're outside and trying to let go that like he doesn't notice it. And if I don't say, can you go take care of that pool that it won't get done? And then the deck furniture that isn't put away yet, same thing. Just like I try all these little things and I'll like, just be like, oh, it's such a little thing. Like, just let it go. And then one more little thing happens eventually, and I'm like, well, I got a list of little things for you. Here's all the ways that you suck as a partner and the ways that you don't show up in our life and all the things that you're selfish about. And that happened the other day where we were getting ready to leave to go to my parents and we were gonna do a bedtime drive or like pick Sage up from school and do a nighttime drive. And we're trying to like pack the house. I'm also working. So like in between podcast interviews or whatever, I'm like popping in to try and pack things up and yada yada. And I pop in at one point and he is, I don't know what it's called because I've never done it in my life, but like shining his shoes, like his leather boots, he's putting like a thing on them.
00:41:45 Rachel
Like polish?
00:41:46 Alyssa
Yeah, yeah, Yeah. And that was the final straw where I was like, I'm sorry, what? This now? Now this feels like where your energy and attention should go. And all the little things came right out. So I was Nora in the car being like, what, you can't even see me? Do you have eyes in the back of your head? That was basically me to my husband because of the shoes, which it was so not about the shoes.
00:42:16 Rachel
That's the thing. And it's like, as always, I have the initial reaction of being like, you're disrespectful. Don't talk to me like that. Which is those are true things. That was disrespectful. And I don't want her to talk to me like that. But she can't access what I want from her until I acknowledge and help her regulate through, which frankly isn't happening at 7:30 at night. You know what I mean? Yeah. This is a discussion that's gonna have to happen today because there was no way, my whole mission was to get her to bed as soon as we got home. And then she was like, I need a snack. So I had snacks in the car. So I'm like, here you go. And she's like, I don't want a dry snack. I want fruit. And I'm like, look, I'm not getting snacks at home. Like if you're hungry, this is what you can eat. And she was like, I'm not eating that. I'm like, great, don't. When we get home, we're brushing teeth.
00:43:10 Alyssa
Have fun being hungry. Enjoy your night being hungry.
00:43:14 Rachel
It's like, cause I know like, she's not actually hungry. She's like, putting off bedtime is like an Olympic sport for her. And in my mind, I'm like, you need sleep ASAP.
00:43:26 Alyssa
Sure.
00:43:27 Rachel
Like I do have eyes in the back of my head and I can tell what's going on here. Like you need to go to bed. Yeah.
00:43:34 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:43:34 Rachel
But I, it's so real in those moments where I'm just like, are you kidding me? Like, are you kidding me right now? I just took you to do something fun. That whole thing.
00:43:44 Alyssa
That you would really have a great time with, yeah, for sure.
00:43:47 Rachel
Because I didn't really want to go, but I was like, oh, this will be great for Noni. Nope.
00:43:52 Alyssa
Those are always the worst. You're like, I'm doing this thing for the kids, and then it's a disaster, and you're like, I didn't even want to be here. I did this for you.
00:44:01 Rachel
Legit. I don't like sports. I want to be at home reading a book.
00:44:07 Alyssa
I'll take Noni to Hashtag Sports.
00:44:11 Rachel
Well, only if you have eyes in the back of your head, because...
00:44:16 Alyssa
Oh, who are we chatting about today?
00:44:19 Rachel
Okay, today we're chatting about Pooja and Danette Digging Into Nature.
00:44:23 Alyssa
Oh, on brand for me being like, everybody's better outside.
00:44:27 Rachel
Yeah, legit.
00:44:29 Alyssa
So real. So real. I am so glad that they didn't say that I have to be a hiking woman to get the benefits of nature.
00:44:37 Rachel
Yeah, I think like in the age of social media and like all of these Adventure mom accounts who are like backpacking with their kids through
00:44:49 Alyssa
You know, who's never gonna have an adventure mom account this girl.
00:44:54 Rachel
Well, and I think it doesn't need to be that way and the more accessible your nature is, like I, there's this like, it is a state park, but it's like five minutes from my kids' school. And it's just like trails and the beach. It's nothing like super fancy, but it's accessible to us, right? Like when it doesn't get dark at 4pm, I can pick them up from school and we can go spend an hour there.
00:45:25 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:45:25 Rachel
And like, yeah, sure. The camping trips that we do in the summer are cool and awesome, but like that's not accessible in real life, right? Like that's a vacation trip.
00:45:36 Alyssa
Yeah, for some people that's a vacation.
00:45:38 Rachel
I know you hate camping. But I just mean, my point is like, that's not accessible for real life, right? Like I'm not taking my kids to the backwoods of Maine on a Wednesday afternoon. Like I just need to get them outside.
00:45:52 Alyssa
Yeah, yeah. Did you appreciate my example of you're forcing me to go outside? Loved it. I also was thinking of like my dad would often, I have four brothers, you know, we grew up in like a rural farm town and he would pop in and we'd be like playing Mario Kart or whatever and he would just come in and turn it off and say, go outside, go outside and play. Or anytime we started to like argue with each other over and over and over. He would just say, take it outside. And it wasn't exactly how I think I learned best or felt most supported. Like maybe like, hey, after this game, you guys got to head outside or something along those lines. I think I would have responded much better too. But once we were outside, things really dissipated. Like we would be arguing and bickering and whatever and then we'd get outside and we'd play hide and seek or we'd play kickball and we would just like be in things. I think that's one of the things for me now with like hashtag nature is that like when I went outside with my brothers or with my friends growing up, we played games. Like we played kickball, we played baseball. We weren't just like going for a hike. That wasn't a thing that I grew up doing. I grew up outside for sure and like playing in the creek and like creating a, Ali Tigh lived on this like creek that ran through Portville. And we would pretend we had like a water park and we'd bring tubes over there and like make a game of it all. But we weren't hiking. And now when I like think about being outside, I'm like, yeah, I want to do something. And it's not hiking. It's like a game. I want to play a game. Like, if you were like, hey, we're gonna go play wiffle ball in the backyard, I'm in.
00:47:53 Rachel
Yep.
00:47:55 Alyssa
But you're like, we're gonna go hike this mountain and like see on the bottom.
00:47:59 Rachel
Yeah, I think like, it's just about finding a way that works for you, right? Cause for me, I'm like, yeah, I'll hike for three hours if I'm gonna see like a beautiful view at the summit, like that.
00:48:11 Alyssa
Yeah, that's not the reward for me, my friend.
00:48:14 Rachel
Right, so like, never is hiking gonna be your thing. And I think it's just like accepting that and it doesn't have to be that you're like bagging peaks, right? You can just go play a game in your backyard.
00:48:26 Alyssa
Yeah. And I liked that permission where she even said, like, like Pooja was saying that as her son got older, he was really into golf. And it was like, great. That's the thing they can do together outside or way to be out in nature. And, you know, we the best gift I ever got, Sage, was that Power Wheels John Deere tractor that he has. Thank you, Facebook Marketplace. I got a sick deal on that bad boy and then like stored it in my garage until his birthday for months and he uses it almost every single day and he is outside and he's hopping on it. He's driving around. He's playing different games now he incorporates his sister into it and it's been like his outlet to being outside and for Mila as long as other kids are outside she's there She's like, oh, there's a hang? I'm here. She doesn't need a thing, whereas for him, he would be out there and he would start to get overwhelmed with all the people around, because our backyard, we have neighbors with kids and stuff, and our backyard's a hang. And the tractor gave him the ability to drive away, to leave the hang and still be outside and be playing and have a purpose. But yeah, I really appreciated that like permission from them to just like find the outside or the nature that is right for you. That it's not like, here's the prescription.
00:49:53 Rachel
Yeah. My kids are getting, actually they're at the age where I can make them go outside without me, which is really rad.
00:50:01 Alyssa
Glorious.
00:50:02 Rachel
And I also do that sometimes in response to arguing or whatever it might be. But also, it's really good for my mental health when I make myself go outside with them.
00:50:17 Alyssa
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. For me, I find that if I can send the kids out and have like five minutes to myself and then go out, that feels really calming. I found it actually as a teacher, where I was like needing nap time and hating lunch time and whatever, and realized like, oh, I need a short break at some point in the morning and made a plan with my co -teacher and she and a floater from our school took the kids outside and I would go to the bathroom and fill my water and go outside with a little more leisure. It was like three minutes. It wasn't like a 15 minute break. It was three minutes that I would just like have to myself. And then when I went outside, I was in a much better place.
00:51:12 Rachel
Yeah, that makes total sense. Also, it's like overstimulating to get kids outside, especially this time of year with like the gear and like.
00:51:20 Alyssa
Well, even in summer with the sunscreen and whatever, and I'm like, that transition can be so stressful for me that having, if it's possible for me to have, even like when we get into the car, I will not talk to them for the first couple of minutes because I'm like, I need a sec here. And that's something I've realized about myself that like the transition to outside feels whelming. It's kind of like, I like to be showered, but I don't like to go through the process of showering. I like to be outside, but I don't like to go through the process. And so for me, when we go through the process, if I can like have a breather for a sec before answering demands or navigating tiny human stuff, it is very helpful for me.
00:52:08 Rachel
Yeah, same.
00:52:11 Alyssa
And it makes them going outside not feel unattainable. Like otherwise it's like, oh my God, the going outside is so insane that is it even worth it? Is the juice worth the squeeze? That's Kylie and her husband's like go -to phrase, is the juice worth the squeeze? And yeah, sometimes it's like, no, if I don't have that break once we get out there, it doesn't feel worth it.
00:52:37 Rachel
Yeah. I also struggle like with, I feel like I need to deal with the house a lot. Like, I'm like, oh, the dishes need to be done. The house is a mess, yada, yada, yada. And there's part of me that wants to like send them outside and then stay inside so I can power clean by myself but when I do that I just end up more dysregulated and I need to just go outside like that's what's best for all of us but it's so hard when you have like 10 million things on your to -do list which parents do every single day.
00:53:13 Alyssa
Yeah I said to Zach last night was like I cuz you know I'm really good at running away from stuff like I'm a fleer a lot of the time and I was like I can tell that I'm overwhelmed because I want to run away to the Taylor Swift concert and spend thousands of dollars just to run away because I want to be outside of my house without the humans I'm responsible for other than myself and not seeing all the stuff around me that needs to be done and just run away from it all for a minute. I just want that.
00:53:49 Rachel
Yep. Yeah.
00:53:53 Alyssa
I hate looking at everything around me inside. That is like a beauty of outside.
00:53:58 Rachel
I'm looking at it right now. And it's bad. And it's like everywhere. I just as an example of trucks. Oh, here's this thing that started going off like a week ago that we pulled out didn't put back. Scissors, anybody? Like, oh, this, this cap belongs somewhere on a Sharpie, but Sharpie is nowhere to be found. So that bodes well for the future of my home. It's just everywhere, like, and tomorrow's Cody's birthday. And so we're having some friends over. I don't think it's gonna be clean for them. And like, they don't care, I care, but I really don't think that I can do it. If I'm also gonna like make a cake and like have dinner and we're like deep in editing this book.
00:54:59 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:55:01 Rachel
Like something's gotta give.
00:55:03 Alyssa
And that's the thing is like, no one else cares, I care. And I even said, I was like, actually Zach, what I want is for all of you guys to leave the house and for me to have a week in my house with nobody here to like build Sage's new bunk bed, to switch out the clothes for the next season, to like pull out, I have stuff, maternity clothes that I have to return to Emily. I have not been pregnant for a year. And I've said so many times, like, I'm going to pull these out for you. Nope. They're just all like that sort of stuff that I'm I just, I need a week in my house.
00:55:44 Rachel
I borrowed party decorations from a friend for Nora's seventh or eighth birthday. So Nora will be 10 next month. I still have those decorations.
00:55:55 Alyssa
Oh my gosh, it's so real. And I'm like, I just need, I need time here without any of you.
00:56:01 Rachel
I know, and I never have it.
00:56:05 Alyssa
Never, never. I need it like quarterly.
00:56:08 Rachel
I think I need it like monthly.
00:56:13 Alyssa
It's so real.
00:56:14 Rachel
I mean, I have, my kids are in school, right? But it's like, I have to use every second of that time for work.
00:56:20 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah, especially right now in this season.
00:56:25 Rachel
So like everything else, I just, like Cody came through the door yesterday and I just picked up the kids plus a bonus kid because Nora wanted to have a friend over. And I had like washed their lunchboxes, started dinner and then I sat down to work and Cody walks in and wants to like chat. He's just like asking me like, just like random questions. And I, and then I'm like not answering. Cause I'm like thinking about what I'm trying to work on. And he's like, do you hear me? And I'm like, I like, I'm getting itchy right now. Just retelling this story.
00:57:02 Alyssa
I don't hear you.
00:57:04 Rachel
I literally was like, I need there to be less talking until I finish this. So welcome home.
00:57:18 Alyssa
And the power of nature. To bring it back full circle. This is how we are without nature.
00:57:24 Rachel
I should have gone outside.
00:57:26 Alyssa
Yeah. Oh, man. I honestly, though, like my hope for folks listening to this is that it feels accessible and that they realize, like, doesn't have to be this big grandiose thing. You don't have to go camping. You don't have to do like, what's the thing people do now? They like put their kids in an RV and travel around the foreign country. Like you don't have to do that to like have your kids benefit from nature and that you can go outside and look at the sky or whatever. And that that is gonna provide benefit. So thank you Pooja and Danette for doing this work.
00:58:02 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
Connect with Dr. Tandon and Dr. Glassy:
Dr. Tandon LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pooja-s-tandon-md-mph-672040299/
Dr. Glassy LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danette-glassy-12b00067/
Website: https://www.projectnaturewa.com/naturebooks/
Order the book: Digging Into Nature: Outdoor Adventures for Happier and Healthier Kids
Connect with us:
Instagram: @seed.and.sew
Podcast page: Voices of Your Village
Seed and Sew's Regulation Quiz: Take the Quiz
Order Tiny Humans, Big Emotions now!
Website: seedandsew.org
Music by: Ruby Adams and Bensound
