Rethinking Weapon Play with Kisa Marx and Samuel Broaden

00:00:00    Alyssa

You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and I'm so stoked about this episode. We get to chat about rethinking weapon play. This is a hot topic. It's one with a lot of opinions, and I really wanted to dive into the child development aspect of this. I got to hang out with Kisa Marx and Samuel Broaden to have this conversation. Kisa is an author, a child advocate, and a champion of early educators. With over two decades in the field, she spent 15 years running her self -affirming play in nature focused family home childcare in Oak Park, Illinois. Recently, she switched to a nonprofit model to offer high quality childcare to families who would otherwise be denied access. Kisa's advocacy, pedagogy, and ethos are anchored in three pillars: childhood is sacred, nature is restorative, and play is revolutionary. When she's not in the field with her crew or advocating with fellow childhood champions, Kisa can be found with her partner of 26 years tending to their garden of adult children, pets, and plants. Samuel is an early childhood advocate and author who believes in the power of childhood and showing children the power they have within themselves. He has worked in the early education field for 20 years, from a teacher to administration to quality coach to author and speaker. He believes in the importance of creating safe spaces for all children to discover who they are and be celebrated for that. He's the author of Gender Expression and Inclusivity in Early Childhood, A Teacher's Guide to Queering the Classroom, and their new book, Rethinking Weapon Play in Early Childhood: How to Encourage Imagination, Kindness, and Consent in Your Classroom, is out now from Kisa and Samuel. I'm super stoked for y 'all to get your hands on that bad boy. All right, folks, let's dive in. 

00:02:00    Alyssa

Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together. 

00:02:22    Alyssa

This is Mila. We call her Beaners. 

00:02:26    Kisa

Hi, Beaners. 

00:02:30    Alyssa

Actually, she was Mila Bean, Beans, Beaners, right? That's the whole evolution. 

00:02:35    Kisa

As the way of nicknames goes. 

00:02:37    Alyssa

That's right. That's right. And I was getting blood drawn relatively recently, and I have a three and a half year old as well. And his name is Sage, and he came in with me, and the phlebotomist was like, oh, is that your sister out there? And he was like, oh, yeah. And she's like, what's her name? And he goes, Beans. And I was like, yeah, but what's her real name? And he goes, Beaners? And I was like, Mila. And he goes, oh, her other name. Yeah, I guess her other name is Mila. 

00:03:18    Samuel

That's cute. 

00:03:19    Alyssa

It was very funny. Kisa, do you have kids? 

00:03:23    Kisa

I do. They're all adults, though. 

00:03:25    Alyssa

Yeah. 

00:03:25    Kisa

So my youngest will be 22, the middle will be 24, and the oldest will be 27. 

00:03:34    Alyssa

Rad. So you're like sleeping through the night. That sounds so nice. 

00:03:38    Kisa

Not really. Not really. 

00:03:39    Alyssa

Oh, okay. All right. So it never happens.

00:03:40    Kisa

It never gets better, 

00:03:44    Alyssa

You know what, thanks. it's just good to know now, yeah, we're team no sleep right now. 

00:03:56    Kisa

Yeah.  Yeah. But it's a different type of disruption when you have adult children, because you can't really do anything, you can't send them to their room, you can't say, oh, if you have a nap, you'll feel better. You can't do any of that when you're an adult, so yeah. 

00:04:13    Alyssa

That dang independence stuff. 

00:04:16    Kisa

Yeah. 

00:04:18    Alyssa

Where's home for you, Kisa? 

00:04:20    Kisa

Oak Park, Illinois. 

00:04:22    Alyssa

Okay, cool. How did you two meet? 

00:04:26    Kisa

Stalking. I spent a weekend, a holiday weekend, it was Thanksgiving. Didn't even know that it was It was our birthday seasons, Scorpio Sagittarius. And I spent the weekend listening to podcasts, the Honoring Childhood podcast. And I was like, I am going to sneak in his DMs and be like, hey, I think we're best friends. And that's how our relationship started. We just started messaging each other. 

00:04:59    Alyssa

And when was that?

00:04:59    Kisa

Was that two? 

00:05:00    Samuel

Oh God. 

00:05:01    Kisa

Three years ago? It feels like forever. 

00:05:05    Samuel

Yeah, it does. It really does feel like forever. 

00:05:06    Kisa

All time after COVID just seems like. 

00:05:09    Alyssa

Yeah, totally, totally. 

00:05:12    Kisa

Sometime after COVID. 

00:05:15    Alyssa

And what has your journey in the field looked like, Kisa? 

00:05:21    Kisa

I was academic centered. I worked in schools and afterschool programs, enrichment programs, and then I started my own family home care, and then the pandemic hit. And when the pandemic hit, I saw all of the distress from caregivers, the parents, the children. I'm like, we have to change something. I knew nothing. I mean, no thing about play -based learning, nature -based learning, thought. I had never heard of Reggio Emilia. I can even say I thought Reggio Emilia was a person because I had never heard of it. 

00:06:00    Alyssa

Sure. 

00:06:01    Kisa

None of those things, because to be frank, they don't center different experiences. So I didn't pay attention to any of it. And so we went outside to play because there was nothing else for us to do. And I was like, oh, it's something to this. But as I grew in my understanding, I realized actually play is one of the most equitable philosophies there is. And so then I started to put names to all the things that I thought intuitively. And then I just grew like that. And then I found Samuel. And I was like, be my best friend. 

00:06:37    Alyssa

I love it. I love it. And Samuel, can you share again what your journey through early ed has been? 

00:06:46    Samuel

Yeah. So started out in like the more corporate side of childcare many, many years ago and kind of just made my way through that experience and decided I wanted to see different viewpoints and different kind of ideas on childhood and child care and all of that. And so I spent some time just working in some different programs, Montessori programs, Reggio programs, things like that, and kind of was able to like shift into like my own kind of philosophy, taking like pieces from each one that I really connected with and kind of creating my own type of philosophy. I also spent some time working as a support for other providers in my community through the resource and referral agency in my city. So I was spending time with different providers, both in -home and center -based, helping them with quality, helping them with support, helping them with mentorship. My husband and I moved to Oregon in the beginning, middle of the pandemic, and I was working there as a forest kindergarten teacher, which is where a lot of the inspiration for this book particularly, but for my work in general came from, was from that year that I spent with that classroom. And now this is kind of what I do. We moved to Austin in May of this year, and I've just been writing and speaking and training and doing podcasts and all of that fun stuff. 

00:08:17    Alyssa

I love this. I love the like, I, I too had spent a little time in like corporate child care. I was like, hmm, I kind of like meandered my way through. And it was for me so helpful to see different perspectives. I grew up in a low income community in Western New York and my mom ran basically like an unregulated home child care program, just stayed home with us and took care of people's kids. And there's not a single center in the town that I grew up in. It's just not the culture. And so it's all family childcare. People take care of each other's kids. But so I always came home just to kids. My mom watched kids and I came home to kids and that's what I knew. 

00:09:07    Kisa

My kids will relate to you. 

00:09:08    Alyssa

Yeah. And I was thinking that, Kisa, of like, there's so much that I got from that experience, but also that my mom did similarly just intuitively. She didn't have a degree. She probably still couldn't tell you who Reggio Emilia is and what that all means, but it was just intuitive. I can still hear my dad now just turning off the TV and saying, just go outside and play. They would just kick us outside to play. For them, it was like, get out of the house. But there was so much value that we got from that, you know, and I, I feel so fortunate now I live in Burlington, Vermont, and we have what we call the compound. There's a family next door who's a stay at home mom, and they have four girls who are all like each two years apart. And I have two kids who are like there's matching ages across and then two more kids there. And that mom next door, similarly, is like a go outside and play. And so we just send the kids out and they can play and be and I think there's so much adult oversight in kids play now. And so much fear around letting kids just go play. And I'm nervous about that. I'm nervous about what that's going to mean for our tiny humans. 

00:10:40    Kisa

The fear makes us nervous. 

00:10:42    Alyssa

Yeah, I'm nervous about too much adult presence in kids' play and how that's going to play out down the road. 

00:10:52    Kisa

Yeah, so we have similarly in our neighborhood, which is anywhere from low middle class to very affluent here. But it's, the village is based on family home child cares. We have a couple of centers, but really there's like three to five on every block. And it's not a small town. And so it's very, that's how we do. But they had to create a group to support play. And when I tell you they are struggling to just encourage-- all of the open, unstructured play is basically hovering because it's baby steps and they're trying, but it's still everybody's, it's just in them to like hover, create, organize instead of turn the TV off, go play. 

00:11:58    Alyssa

Yeah, it's the adults, right? Like kids will naturally do this. But it's our fears, and I think I was reading The Anxious Generation. 

00:12:09    Kisa

Oh I've heard so much about it.

00:12:11    Alyssa

It's so good. There's a lot I really agree with and like about it. But he speaks to this a bit of how we've lost risk in play. And risk both with like, Yeah, I grew up biking to Ali Tigh's house down the road, you know, like you could kind of see her house from my house, but not really. I grew up biking to her house since I can remember, right? And no one was checking. I didn't have a cell phone. No one was checking in. Did you make it? They just assumed I made it. And someone would report otherwise from the village if I didn't, you know. And now, I was just chatting with a friend of mine who was like, I want to do that, and I'm afraid that someone's going to call CPS on me if I'm letting my kid go do this stuff. 

00:13:04    Kisa

Yeah. 

00:13:05    Alyssa

And so I'm so curious. You have thoughts on that Mila? Yeah. 

00:13:10    Kisa

You won't let them do that.

00:13:13    Alyssa

Yeah. But I'm curious when we're looking now, looking at this book that y 'all wrote here on Rethinking Weapon Play in Early Childhood, how this is going to play a role in this conversation of like, just risk in general, and how risk averse we've become and how weapon play plays into that. 

00:13:36    Kisa

Yeah. So, the thing I want, I would love for Sam to take us back to is how this originated with just risky play. Like the main thing is weapon play because that's what triggers everyone, it's very activating. But this all began with a conversation we all need to have about risky play. 

00:13:56    Samuel

And that's so interesting too, because so much of what you're saying about this kind of adult mindset and viewpoint is so much of what we talk about in the book. But yeah, I mean, this whole entire idea for me started with just a basic conversation with the children that I was caring for. We were in a little forest and we were outside most of the day, and the kids were wading in the creek, and they were climbing the trees and doing all of these really risky kind of activities and activities that a lot of adults would be like, no way, what are you letting them do? No way. Get them out of that creek. Get them out from that tree. And so I started to, you know, I was seeing them play that way and I was, you know, I was a little nervous at first just because, again, it's kind of ingrained in us, right, that kids shouldn't be able to do that, that something's going to happen, you know. And so I was like nervous at first and then I started noticing them, you know, finding different sticks and shooting and finding different rocks and those were bombs and finding whatever it was that they were doing. And so, me as an adult and who, you know, was kind of brought up in this, in this education field of like, that's a no, that was what I responded as. And I responded that way many, many, many times. And I, one day I just literally thought to myself, like, this, whatever I'm trying to get to happen is not working. Because I'm just repeating the same thing over and over. 

00:15:47    Alyssa

Turns out when I say no, they're just not listening. 

00:15:49    Samuel

Yeah, literally, I'm like, there's some sort of like, disconnect. And like, I'm getting tired of like, saying it, and I'm getting tired of this kind of like struggle with this kind of play. And so I was like, let me just kind of take that step back. And let me just ask them, let me just talk with them about this kind of play and, and what they're enjoying about it and why they continue to do it and all these things. And what's really interesting is this idea of adult control and this idea of what's good and bad has been so ingrained that when I sat them down to have the conversation, it took 10 minutes for me to convince them that they weren't going to be in trouble by saying that they played that way. So I was like, oh, I noticed that y 'all are playing with these sticks and making guns and doing this. And it was so many of like, no, we're not. And I'm like, 

00:16:39    Alyssa

"It's a wand.. its a... "

00:16:39    Samuel

And I'm like, first of all, and I'm like, first of all, y 'all, you y 'all have to get a little bit better at covering up these things because we've literally had this conversation a bunch of times. So, um, but no, it, it took a while for me to be like, no, I really just want to talk to you about it. Like no one's in trouble. And so once we were able to have that conversation, I was able to recognize that, like, none of them were thinking anything that I was thinking or anything that any other adult was thinking. They were having fun and they were being imaginative. And so we were able to have a really cool conversation about boundaries and consent and all of these things that came out of this conversation so that we could all continue to play this way in a safe way. And, you know, it was really, I don't know, it was really great to see the conversation coming from them. It was really great to see the conversation continuing with each other out there absent of me and it was just it was a huge shift in like so much that I did like I already was pretty free with kind of what they were quote -unquote allowed I hate that but like allowed to do I was already pretty free with that this was kind of the one thing that I was like okay but we can't do that and so having that conversation and be able to move past that it was it was just great and you know so many people would say like oh Oh, I can't believe you're letting them do that. They're gonna be violent and they're gonna be mean and they're gonna be this. And it was actually the opposite, I found. They were more empathetic. They were kinder. They took better care of each other, which is so much of what we want them to learn. And so being able to have that conversation with them really was like the catalyst for all these ideas. And I shared that conversation with people, literally anyone who would listen for like the longest time. And then I was like, I wanna tell more people about this. Like I've already told the people I know, Like, I need to figure out a way to tell more people about this. And so that's kind of how this process of, of just talking about this with other educators, doing different trainings, and then eventually how this, how this whole whole book came, came to be. So, you know, those, those kids might not even know what a, what an impact they're having on, on other adults and other children's experiences. 

00:18:58    Alyssa

I love that. I, yeah, 

00:19:02    Kisa

Or teachers. 

00:19:02    Alyssa

Yeah. I love that focus on the adult mindset and for us being able to, there's so many times I can think of as teacher and a parent where I'm like, no, no, no. And finally I'm like, Alyssa, you're a broken record. This isn't changing the outcome. So take a beat. What are you actually nervous about? What are you afraid of? And just getting curious, I'm like, why am I setting this boundary? What is the root of this boundary? And sometimes it's frankly convenience, like I don't wanna have to deal with that cleanup that I know my three -year -old's not gonna do and it's gonna be a battle and I don't have the capacity today for that, right? And like, fine, sometimes that's gonna be it. And sometimes I'm like, yeah, no, I just said no. Like there was no, like it just came out of my mouth and I haven't really thought this through. And on second thought, sure, you can use all of these different tools in a way that I hadn't envisioned or whatever, you know, and I love that focus on the adult on yourself first there, Samuel, I think one thing that can come up for us, especially with weapon play, is this, like, I have to teach them all of the things about weapons and how just like the social dynamics and how they're going to play out in different cultures and communities. It can turn into something that I think isn't a developmentally appropriate conversation, where we're like, I'm going to offload my entire adult lens onto you here. 

00:20:45    Kisa

Absolutely that. We need to take her with us. 

00:20:52    Alyssa

I'll come on board. 

00:20:53    Kisa

Because it's that. It's that right there. 

00:20:57    Alyssa

Yeah, and I'd love to chat about that because I think that comes up for a lot of folks of like, yeah, well, guns aren't safe. Guns kill people. They can't just be playing with guns. They need to understand the full weight of guns. And it's like, do they? When do they? What do they need to know? You know, and so I think it'd be helpful for folks if we can dive into that part of the combo. 

00:21:18    Kisa

So, the way that I see that is it always comes back full circle to the adult in question in the room. Their experiences, their lens, as you said, their traumas, everything, it comes back to the adult. When we're doing anything related to the care of children, whether we're potty training, When we're potty training, you're like, oh, so -and -so is a year old, we're going to start potty training. We're not thinking about what's going on inside. We're not thinking about their sphincter. We're not thinking about their bladder. We're not thinking about their social -emotional state. We're not thinking about their language development or their physical capacity. We're not thinking about any of those things. We're just like, it's time now. 

00:22:06    Alyssa

I heard that at this age, this is when we do that. 

00:22:10    Kisa

But when it comes to weapon play, it's like, oh my God, but do you know the state of the world? This child needs to know everything about every mass shooting there ever was in the world. No, they don't. We don't and I'm not saying that we shouldn't be aware. We should a hundred percent be aware of what internal things are going on when we're dealing with children all the time in every capacity, but what I'm saying is there's a time and there's a place. And when a child is playing they are doing just that--playing. So we're not supposed to pull them aside and give them a history lesson on, you know, violence, the history of violence, in the midst of their play. We're not going to do that with anything. We're not going to talk about Somali pirates when they're playing, you know, they're trying to get treasure. We're just not going to do that ever. This has to do with our activation of what's going on in the real adult world. But we have to take a beat, as you said, and remember that we're dealing with their limited life experience and how they see power, consent, kindness, and are processing the troubling aspects of the world, but in a developmentally informed way. They just don't have the capacity to experience life and know what we know. They don't have that backlog of information, and so we're putting too much on them. 

00:23:41    Alyssa

They don't need it yet either. 

00:23:43    Kisa

They don't need it. They don't need it. 

00:23:46    Alyssa

Yeah.  

00:23:46    Kisa

They do know it needs to be safe, but not in the midst of their play because that's not what they're doing. They're not trying to harm anyone. 

00:23:55    Alyssa

Correct. I just had a flashback to myself as a preschool teacher really early on, and I was very anti -gunplay for all these reasons, right? I was so nervous about it. A kid was playing with a pretend gun, and he was like, I shot you, and I was like, well, I'm dead, and now I can't play, and just like shutting down the play, right? I was like, great. You want to shoot me? Dead. Can't play. And look back and I'm like, oh man, so many missed opportunities. But I think like for me, I was like, this is how I'll shut it down. And that it is, I already think for adults, like it's hard for us to just let kids play. And I think that one key component to allowing kids to engage in risky play is what you've outlined here of taking a beat, setting boundaries, and helping kids. It's an incredible opportunity to teach consent and helping kids understand what that means and what consent looks like and doesn't look like. And then - 

00:25:08    Kisa

What empathy looks like and doesn't look like.

00:25:09    Alyssa

 A hundred percent. And then your job as the adult being able to, especially at the beginning of it, step in and scaffold here and there of like, oh, I noticed that person pulled back. Let's take a look at their face. Does it look like they're enjoying this still? And checking in with them. Is this still something you wanna do? And then we have these opportunities to teach the nonverbal communication and empathy and consent and create a culture where then we don't need to be there and the kids can go off and do this. I think what a lot of us didn't get in risky play was any adult scaffolding. So I think a lot of us grew up and have had experiences where we maybe engaged in risky play or had things in play where an adult wasn't present that didn't feel comfortable or didn't feel good for us and there was no adult scaffolding. And so now we're swinging that pendulum real far to we are going to be there and scaffold all the things all the time. 

00:26:11    Samuel

And what's so interesting about that is that's such a huge part of what we talk about in the book and what we wanted the book to be was this idea of kind of reflecting on your experiences and on the things that you had or the things that you didn't have. Because I mean, if you think about it, right, if you're thinking about your childhood and your experiences, you're thinking back to like, yeah, I played this way, because probably almost all of us did play this way. But also, I, like you said, I didn't have an adult there that felt safe, or I didn't have spaces or time in my life to advocate for myself, or to learn what consent was, because I was forced to give Grandpa Joe over here a hug every time he came, even though I didn't know who he was, and he's a little creepy. We didn't have those spaces to do those things. And so now, as an adult, take away like our work with children, just in our own lives, like how often do we struggle in our own adult relationships with people in advocating for ourselves? Or how often do we struggle with telling anyone in our life, like, no, I don't wanna do that, whatever it is. We struggle so much with that because we didn't have that experience. And so it's that thought process of, we should be wanting better for the children who are coming after us. We should be wanting them to have experiences that we didn't have, more positive experiences than we have. And so that whole idea of reflection is such a huge part of the book. There's so much space in the book for reflection. And I think that's important because it's a hard thing to do, especially if we didn't have like the greatest experiences to reflect back on, right? It's not something that a lot of us want to remember or think about or consider how that informs what we do today, but it's so, so important because if we're able to reflect, we're able to understand these things, then we're able to give the children things that we didn't have. And in the same token, we're giving the same thing back to us, right? And so it's this, you know, we talk a lot about like this healing process that happens for us in this work with children. And so it's this kind of mutual giving of just the things that we wish that we had and the things that we want the children to have at the same time. 

00:28:38    Kisa

Yeah

00:28:40    Alyssa

You brought up something that I hadn't considered in this conversation, that we think of it as like in risky play or in play in general, I want kids to advocate for themselves and understand consent and boundaries. But we don't just send those messages in those moments that when creepy Grandpa Joe or whatever is there and we're like, yeah, you have to go give Grandpa Joe a hug that we're sending the message to that child that they're not in control of their body and they can't advocate for their needs and that consent doesn't matter in those moments. And that through line then can be carried over into other spaces when they are playing and somebody does something and it doesn't feel good for them. They already have the adult message of, well, sometimes consent doesn't matter and sometimes you can't advocate for your needs and maybe this is one of those times where I'm not supposed to, right? And so in order for us to like really send these messages and allow them to practice that self -advocacy piece and empathy and all that in risky play, we have to be doing this outside of that too, that the messages we send outside of that really matter. And it can be, I think consent is one of those spaces where it can be so hard because I can hear my three year old right now being like, that's my body, it's my choice. And I'm like, correct. And you do have to ride in a car seat. There are times where I'm like, yes, and it's my job to keep you safe.

00:30:24    Kisa

Yes/And.

00:30:25    Alyssa

It can feel murky. Then it's like, who is in charge of your body when? I think for a lot of us and anyone who's experienced any sort of sexual abuse or sexual trauma or anything related to consent, that can feel really triggering where we're like, no, I want to make sure that they're always in control of their own bodies. And I think sometimes we overstep as adults from that fear point too. And that like the risky play or weapon play, there's this fear from a consensual lens that we like overstep and end up kind of doing the opposite and not giving them opportunities to advocate for themselves. 

00:31:09    Kisa

Because it becomes is polarizing, which becomes the way when we are not navigating our triggers, right? And I think, I don't like to use the word trigger so much as activating, because to me, triggers represent an unresolved issue. And that's why it keeps triggering you. That's why you keep going. So we're working to heal it. We don't wanna recover. It's like something that'll always be there, but we are working to heal. And with us and all the things that go on in our mind, we're thinking we're gonna control it by giving it an instant no. But that doesn't control it, it shuts it down. And then what are the unspoken rules there? Shame, lack of safety, lack of security, lack of connection. So Samuel and I have been talking about this and I really wanna lean in more, challenging us as professionals, you know, we keep shying away from the hard work when this is the job we signed up for, to do the hard work. This is, you know, we're we're in a healing business. We are in a business of introducing people to being in becoming. So everything's murky, every single thing we do. 

00:32:37    Alyssa

And the really rad part about it is we're in the business of healing, and as you start to do it, it's freeing for you. 

00:32:46    Kisa

It totally is. 

00:32:48    Samuel

Yup

00:32:48    Alyssa

Right? It's so hard, especially at the beginning, but then you start to experience freedom. I had an instance last weekend, we went for a hike, and when I was going into my senior year of high school, a friend of mine was on a hike and it had been raining and he slipped into water and he ended up dying. He got sucked under. And so we're on this hike with my three and a half year old and baby and it was very different circumstances. There's no rain, there's whatever. And I found anytime my three and a half year old was going to veer at all from the path, I was like, come on over bud. And remember stay on the path and like over and over. And I was like, Oh, I got to take a look at this later. 

00:33:33    Kisa

Yup

00:33:33    Alyssa

I also knew like right now in the moment, as I'm like parenting, these two kids, I was like, this is not the time right now I'm going to send the message I probably don't really want to send, but I'm gonna take a look at this later so that the next time we go on this hike, I can go in with different intentions and with more emotional support for myself, um, to be able to set different boundaries that allow for the messaging. I do want him to go and explore and play and not always stay on the path. But it's like those moments where I was like, oh, ah, mm -hmm, going to have to take a look in this one. 

00:34:12    Kisa

And I just want to jump in and say that speaks to the amount of reflection and where you are in your reflective practice, because everybody can't do that. And that's what we want to encourage people to just take one second, just one beat to notice, hear yourself, and then you can start to catch it. Like, oh, I'm noticing, every time he goes over, my eyes are darting. Come on back, come on back. Why am I doing that? You can put it in a jar, save it for later, but just pay attention so that you can go back and look at it. 

00:34:46    Alyssa

And for me, it's noticing where I'm experiencing stress. I'm like, we're on this hike, we're outside, we're chilling. Normally, being outside is regulating for us. And I'm dysregulated on this hike. And so what's going on, right? Like when I'm noticing my stress, that's usually the trigger for me of like, what's going on? I wanna dive into, we put out the question to y 'all, like what are some things that you wish people asked you about? And there was one that jumped out to me here, Kisa from you. 'There's a double standard when it comes to weapon play. What's considered noble and what's considered violent are deeply embedded in a systemic framework' Can we dive in here? 

00:35:31    Kisa

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely we can. I think there is this huge disconnect when it comes to the issue of risk, risk -taking, self -advocacy, self -efficacy, all under the umbrella of weapon play. What's okay for white children, what's okay for affluent children, and what is okay for children of the global majority, particularly black children. And the entire issue as a whole of weapon play is a hot button issue. But if you add black children, high crime area, there's so many nuances, and really you can't, it's opaque. You cannot get through on one side. It's like, oh, this is an issue of safety. They cannot do this. They cannot do that. But if we're talking play, everyone should be able to play. And we just have to figure out the conversations. Those, the conversations need to be place -based, environment -specific. 

00:36:49    Alyssa

I like that. 

00:36:50    Kisa

But everybody should be allowed to play. I didn't hear what you said, I'm sorry. 

00:36:54    Alyssa

I just like that term place -based. 

00:36:57    Kisa

Yeah, yeah, it should. Think about where you are and just, you know, if you're going and talking to a crowd, we all do public speaking, read your audience, read the room. I know where I am. I know that I can't just suggest that children in a high -crime, heavy -gun -violence neighborhood that they just all start playing shoot -em -up -and -move -em -out games. We have to have a conversation of why this is important, what the children are learning, how this looks, and expectations. The expectation is not that he goes out on his street in front of the house and starts pretending to shoot people up when you know that Tamir Rice existed and died doing just that. 

00:37:44    Alyssa

Correct. 

00:37:46    Kisa

But what was Tamir Rice really doing? Was he exploring power dynamics? Was he just playing a game for the game's sake? Those things that he was doing, that's natural to all children, developmentally appropriate for all children. The societal issue is where the conversation is for the adults, not the children. 

00:38:10    Alyssa

Okay, love that. That's what I was looking for. For the adults, not the children, that these are conversations that we need to have in order to protect kids' ability to play and equity in play, as you pointed out at the beginning, that play is the most equitable. 

00:38:29    Kisa

It really is. 

00:38:30    Alyssa

If we allow it. 

00:38:33    Kisa

Yes, yes. And it pains me to hear when people say, oh, well, they live in this neighborhood so they can do that. No, you should be able to do it in all neighborhoods, in every environment. Just be aware of what environment you're in. 

00:38:48    Alyssa

Yeah. And I'm curious, your thoughts on like, I think of Trystan Reese, who I interviewed years ago, it was a conversation on gender and he said, listen, I am trying to prepare my kids for the world we live in with the tools to change it. And I love that. And so, with that lens here, how do we prepare our kids for the world they live in right now? If we have kids in a high -crime, high -gun -violence neighborhood, that we know it might not be safe for them to go play with a pretend gun out in the front yard. How do we prepare them for where they can play and cultivating spaces where they can do this with also the conversation around this isn't safe to do in all places, and here's why, and let's change it. It isn't fair, it isn't equitable, and it's what we live in right now, and I ultimately wanna keep you safe. 

00:39:54    Kisa

Safe. I think that's a conversation that you can have during morning meeting or circle time. I think you should always be speaking about injustice and social justice, and children love talking about justice. They're little advocates. They come equipped with knowing what's fair and unfair, what's right and what's wrong, and you can just add on to that. So you can take societal issues and you can whittle them down until they're informed by the development, age, and stage of your child. Have a conversation about it. It takes two seconds. Just ask them to talk about what happened in their day. And nine times out of 10, once you get like a routine and ritual with your kids, they get, they're going to start talking about things that they hear the grownups around them saying. 

00:40:47    Alyssa

For sure. 

00:40:48    Kisa

There's your in, right there. 

00:40:51    Alyssa

Well, and what you're doing is you're having these conversations outside that play moment. You're having these conversations in a regulated moment. 

00:40:59    Kisa

Yes, yes. 

00:41:01    Alyssa

And where you can, and like my dream is that a morning meeting is not something where everyone's sitting around in a circle crisscross applesauce, right? Where kids can be in the body that they need to be in in that moment where they can access the conversation. 

00:41:16    Kisa

Yeah. Yeah. And it should be very, very natural. And to know for the teacher, because we have to learn, right? The educator has to learn and we have to change too, stretch our muscles. And to be able to train our minds to see that those are two separate things. Teaching them about gun safety and violence is not what they're doing here at playtime. And the kid already knows that. It's us. We need to understand that. I think that would help too. 

00:41:49    Alyssa

I love that. And that's what I meant earlier with that, like our big adult lens, where for us, it's like, oh shoot, this is happening. Like, and now I need to offload all this other information to you. And it's like, I don't, I don't. I can just let you play. 

00:42:03    Kisa

Yeah, I don't. Mm -hmm. 

00:42:05    Alyssa

I can just let you play. 

00:42:07    Kisa

Mm -hmm. 

00:42:08    Alyssa

Yeah, all play is good play. 

00:42:10    Samuel

It's so much about the conversation piece, and that's such a huge thing for me. And like, even having the conversation with the children that I did when we were talking about weapon play, when we were in that regulated space, just having conversation, I wanted to hear from them. You know, once we had got to the point where we had all kind of come to this decision and this agreement of like, this is what we're gonna do here, This is how we're going to do it, all of that. We also have the conversation of like, it, it, it was a little bit on a smaller scale, but, but I had the conversation with them of, you know, this is what we've decided here and there's going to be other people who are not in this space with us who are not going to think the same way that we're thinking, who are not going to have had a conversation about this, but it's important for us to recognize the spaces that we're in and, and what we're doing and what we've decided here together. But it's also important for us to remember the things that we've talked about, remember our agreements, remember why these things are important. And being able to have that conversation, because, you know, they would be doing all of those things. And then it would be time for me to go home, or it'd be time for whatever. And they would have another teacher come in or another classroom, and then they'd get a completely different message from what I was giving them, right. And so having that conversation with them about that. And And then I think this idea of wanting to change things, you know, it's, they're watching us so much, right? And so when they're seeing us stand up for things, when they're seeing us talk about things, try to change things, challenge things, they're seeing that from someone that they look up to, from someone that they spend a majority of their time with. And so, so much of it too can be that modeling of what we do as adults in certain situations and how we handle certain situations. Even if the challenge or the disagreement with another adult is coming, we're over here and the children are all the way over there, whatever it is that's happening. They're listening, they're picking up on clues, they're seeing what's going on, they're seeing our reactions, all of those things. And so I think that by doing the work ourselves too, is such an important piece and they can look to us and see that those things are okay. But honestly, these conversation pieces are so, so important in just allowing children space to have feelings, to have emotions, to have conversations, to work through things. Because a lot of times when we think about children who maybe do live in high crime areas or who do experience this in their everyday lives, that's a big trauma piece to that. And they might not have space in their homes to talk about those things, to play through those things, to do that. And that's what I think about a lot with my work in general is, I don't know what happens when the kids go home, right? Yeah, I may know the families and I may kiki with them and we could be talking and whatever, but I don't really know what goes on at home. And so with that mindset, and I'm thinking this space that I'm creating for them could be the only space that they have, that's safe, supportive, all of those things that we want. And so I think that offering them that space is such a huge part of this conversation, too. 

00:45:28    Kisa

Yeah, because we're offering up safety. Remember we talked about that? And giving them that safe space to unpack whatever it is, even if it's in a teachable moment, they're saying something that may be activating, you know, like I read somewhere, someone was saying that a kid said, you know, I'll shoot you in the face. But the conversation started with, I'll shoot you with a cannonball or something. And I'm like, well, lead with that because that shows you developmentally where the child is. Because I mean, where does one acquire a cannonball? Yeah, you're good. So circle back to that. So you remember, that's a child. He doesn't know all the gore and gruesomeness that being shot in the face would entail. He's not saying that. He's saying that from a very young, cartoonish, child -centered frame of mind. 

00:46:29    Alyssa

Yeah. 

00:46:30    Kisa

So if we do that, we can have a different conversation and offer up safety by just knowing they don't understand what I understand. 

00:46:40    Alyssa

Correct, correct. And that maybe it's not even something that has to be curbed right now. I love that note of differentiation that you brought up, Samuel, of kids will differentiate. It's a part of actually emotional intelligence. It's the social skills part of emotional intelligence where they learn, what can I do where? Just like we learn, how do I show up at my grandma's house versus when I'm hanging out with my friends, right? It's going to be different. Just the other day, we were on the way home from school and my three -year -old said something about how he can't do that. And I was like, you can't do it, why? And he was like, well, I would be in trouble. And I was like, oh, tell me more. And he was talking about his classroom rules and that you can't do that because if you do that, you'll be in trouble. And I was like, okay. And so just gave him space to like chat about it. And then when it like died down, I said, hey, bud, I just want you to know you're never going to be in trouble with me and dada. There's nothing you can do where you're going to be in trouble. We know that you're kind and that you want to make a kind choice, and if you're having a hard time doing that, we can help you, but you're never going to be in trouble. Even if you do something on purpose that you know you're not supposed to do, we'll help you figure out what to do next. He comes to us all the time, mama, I did this. The other day I pushed his sister and he came in and he's running in and he was like, um, I accidentally on purpose, I pushed Mila over. And I was like, okay, yeah, let me come help. And then once everything was calmed, then we could talk about like, what happened? How can I help you? Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. She's in your space a lot now. She's learning to crawl. It is a pain in the butt. Here's what you can do. But he knows he can come to us and tell us the truth and that he's not going to be in trouble, even if it's something that we still say he can't do, like it's still a rule that you can't push your sister or whatever. Great, you're still not in trouble. We can help you figure out what you can do and what's coming up with you. And I think we often, we want to create this world where it's going to be the same rules with all the humans, right? That, well, if I'm designing this play and then what if they go to this other teacher and they can't do it or they go home and they're doing that. They're going to learn where they can and can't do something. They're going to learn what's safe and what isn't. Even just emotionally safe, right? That when they start to do that, they are in trouble. Or that person says no. They're going to learn like, oh, I can't do that here. 

00:49:20    Kisa

Our brain compartmentalizes everything. It's what we learn to do even as little infants. Mila will know when I need to get out the way. And when I'm safe to crawl. She will catch that really fast. And the thought that we as adults have to immediately jump in and solve that issue for children when it's a part of the human experience. Like we're taking ourselves a little bit too seriously here. Children are very capable and they understand when and where really quickly. All you have to do is explain, there's cars out there in the street. We don't want to run into it. And they start to get it. Now, that doesn't mean that you just let them go willy -nilly, but you can start to explain the expectation. If this is a street, we don't dart out into it. And they just get it.

00:50:10    Alyssa

And I'll stop you.

00:50:11    Kisa

Yeah. And I'll stop you. I'll keep you safe. But I just want, this doesn't really have to do with what we're talking about. I want to go back to what you just said about the conversation that you had with Sage. And that was, what you're modeling is that his entire being is safe with you. And that's what we should offer for all of our children. Through your faults, through your finding as you grow, your good days and your bad days, you are safe with me and you are safe here. And that's what we want for all of our children. Even as they're learning, tripping, falling, bumping, accidentally on purpose. 

00:50:49    Alyssa

Accidentally on purpose. 

00:50:50    Kisa

Yes. Yeah. Shooting with lasers, pews, pow -pows, whatever it may be. The rock that's a grenade, we want to explain that you are safe here. Now let's learn a thing or two. You can show me and I can show you. 

00:51:05    Alyssa

Yeah. The grace to grow without perfection. 

00:51:09    Kisa

Yes. 

00:51:09    Samuel

Yes. Yes. And it's so interesting. When you were telling that story, I was like, this is exactly the problem that I have with classroom rules or things like that. It's like, it's so much the adult control again. And now all it is is like, this is a rule. And if you break it, you're in trouble. There's the shame. There's all these things instead of like discussing things with the children about like, Hmm, why do you think that maybe this isn't a best solution to a problem? Why, what could happen if this happens? So instead of like, just, just the consequence to everything is like, you're in trouble. Like, I don't know. It's just, it's so shameful to me. 

00:51:47    Kisa

It is.

00:51:47    Samuel

And it's so, and you know, I think about like, 

00:51:49    Kisa

It's nothing else, its shame. 

00:51:50    Samuel

No, back into my own childhood, right? When I was in school, we pulled our cards, right? When we got in trouble. So we had like a set of four cards, green, yellow, red, and black, right? Green was the best. And if you pulled your card all the way to black, you went to the principal's and your parents got told you pulled your card. And you had to pull it in front of everybody. You had to go up, everyone was watching. And so it's this whole cycle of like shame and all these things that these children are doing. And so even in this type of play, We're telling them, no, you're gonna be in trouble, you're gonna be in trouble, you're gonna be in trouble. So now - 

00:52:23    Kisa

We don't hurt our friends. Look at you, you're scaring them, you hurt them. 

00:52:26    Samuel

Yeah. Yes, and it's like, number one with that, all these kids aren't your friends. So stop saying that. Number two is like, there's so much of that shame. And so then when they are playing it, or when they're wanting to experience it, then they're feeling like maybe I'm doing something wrong. Maybe there's something wrong with me because this is something that all these adults are so adverse to, but I still want to do it. So there's something wrong there. And so it's this cycle of that shame, like Kisa was talking about at the beginning, that we need to get rid of. And we get rid of that by having conversations, by letting go of our own need for control. And - 

00:53:09    Alyssa

I was gonna say, it's power dynamics. 

00:53:11    Samuel

It's so much that. 

00:53:12    Kisa

Which they're trying to explore.  

00:53:15    Samuel

And we need to shift that. Like we need to shift that away from like us having power and control and teaching the children the power and control that they have in themselves. That is such a huge shift. And it's hard. It's really hard for adults because maybe we have control issues in our personal lives, right? 

00:53:35    Alyssa

I think most of us didn't grow up experiencing being allowed to have control. 

00:53:40    Samuel

So now it's that like overexertion of it and especially in the education field where we've been taught both in our own experience as children and then as teachers in teacher education that the child is down here and we're up here and our job is to get the child to comply and listen and all these things that are working through our heads right now because that's what we were made to think a good teacher was supposed to do. And so having to work through all this is a tough thing. 

00:54:11    Alyssa

And I want to acknowledge that for some folks, there can be a pendulum swing to permissiveness, where there is no sturdy leader here in the classroom, and now it's just utter chaos, and that there are things like, I'm going to stop my child from running into the street ultimately, right? That is my job. I'm going to set that boundary, that if you're running into the street, even though we've talked about this, but you don't understand that if you get hit by that car, you're dead. Like that is a concept you do not yet get. I'm going to stop you from running into the street if you're running in that direction. 

00:54:48    Kisa

Because I have to keep you safe. 

00:54:50    Alyssa

Correct. And that there is a, we do ultimately have the power and control. Sage is going to ride in a car seat, right? Like things like that where I am going to set safety boundaries boundaries for you. I think what has gone too far and what I'm looking for the middle ground on is like, I don't want to go to this permissive space where the adult doesn't know how to set boundaries or keep kids safe and kind of be the scaffolder for problem solving and things like that. Ask the right questions without doing the problem solving, et cetera. You know, the question that you brought up, Samuel, like, well, why do you think this would be the rule. Asking those types of questions that help kids embody this and understand it. But then also the other side of this pendulum is that I have control over everything. It's a because I said so culture and there is no rhyme or reason. And I don't need to explain my boundary to you. This just is the rule. 

00:55:51    Kisa

But you do. 

00:55:53    Alyssa

Correct. And I grew up saying, but why? But why? But why? And people were like, because I said so, and I'm like, that does not work for me. And now as a 35 year old adult woman, I'm like, if I do not understand the why and agree with this boundary, I choose not to follow it, thank you very much. I am only going to follow the boundaries that I think make sense to me. And it's totally a like result of the because I said so culture, where no one ever explained the why. 

00:56:28    Kisa

So I think in that instance, that goes back again to challenging educators to lean into their expertise. It takes zero thought to say, because I said so. It shuts everything down for the child who needs actual understanding and the educator who needs stretching in being able to communicate their boundary. Though where the common ground here is going to be in conversation and stopping and saying, knowing in your mind, stopping instead of jumping in with your immediate no, and knowing your expertise as one, an adult, two, as someone who has lived experience, and three is someone who has a certain amount of certification or you have a background that helps you to be an informed educator, right? So you know that you have that in your toolkit when you're watching them do X, Y, and Z. And so you have to assess, is this safe? Is what they're doing a problem? And if so, who is it a problem for? 

00:57:47    Alyssa

I love that. 

00:57:49    Kisa

So if it's a problem for you, keep your mouth shut. If it's a problem of safety, that's when you step in. But you have to remember you're not playing teacher anymore. You are a full educator and advocate, and so you have to do your job. You have to educate and you have to advocate. 

00:58:11    Alyssa

Love it. I love it. And I think there's also room for sometimes it is going to be about you and you're not going to be perfect at this. And that's okay, too. There are times as both an educator and as a parent where I don't have the capacity, right? Like on a scale of zero to 10, I'm working at a three or a two, right? And I'm like, okay. 

00:58:31    Kisa

Every day, you're going to have it because you're going to burn out. Even if you're at 100 at the beginning of the day, somebody comes and leans up against you. At the end of the day, you're probably like, I can't take it anymore. 

00:58:42    Alyssa

Get it off me. We have this Thomas the train that the podcast has heard me talk about, but somebody got my child this Thomas the train that turns on and it drives. It's a small little train, but in 14 seconds, inevitably, it's in a corner of a wall going like click, click, click, click, click, click, click. I'm going to chuck it out a window. It drives me freaking nuts. I realized for myself to be the parent that I want to be, there are times of day that Thomas cannot be a part of my day. And so like when we're getting ready in the morning, Thomas is away in a closet. Thomas is not an available toy right now because I will not be the parent I wanna be this morning as we're trying to get out the door if Thomas is here. And but when we get home from school and we're just like playing and hanging and whatever, sure, Thomas can be out. Thomas can hang. Thomas is not a morning toy in my house. And so looking at like, we can have limits and boundaries is because your regulation matters as the adult. 

00:59:42    Kisa

It does. 

00:59:42    Alyssa

And taking care of yourself includes your regulation. 

00:59:45    Kisa

Mm -hmm. Taking care of them includes your regulation. 

00:59:49    Alyssa

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. To even engage in the reflection and these conversations with kids, you have to take care of your regulation. Y 'all, I'm so jazzed for this book. 

01:00:01    Samuel

Thank you. 

01:00:03    Alyssa

I'm so stoked. I want to have you come. We can chat about this actually off air, but we do a teacher summit that's free for teachers. They air in March. And I want to have y 'all come and do a workshop for teachers. 

01:00:24    Samuel

Oh, yes. 

01:00:24    Kisa

We're ready. 

01:00:24    Alyssa

Awesome. Sweet. Because I want to keep talking, but I want to be respectful of your time. So we're going to run this back. Where can folks find each of you and follow you, learn more about you, reach out for consulting and things like that? Samuel, will you kickstart us and Kisa close this out? 

01:00:44    Samuel

Yeah, of course. So you can find me anywhere. Honoring Childhood is the name of everything that I do. So Instagram is where you'll find me most of the time at Honoring Childhood. Podcast is Honoring Childhood. Website is Honoring Childhood. Email is just my name at honoringchildhood.org. Everything is the same. So yeah, it's fairly easy to find me. And yeah, I love talking about this and childhood and children, everything. 

01:01:13    Alyssa

All things tiny human. Kisa. 

01:01:15    Samuel

All things. 

01:01:17    Kisa

Speaking of shame, every time Samuel gives this very succinct, you can find me here, everywhere across the board.

01:01:27    Alyssa

Dangit!

01:01:27    Kisa

I was like, oh my God, this. I can never remember because everything's named something else. 

01:01:35    Samuel

That's so funny. 

01:01:38    Kisa

The easiest thing is to look up my name, Kisa Marx, but also you can find me at the Play Lab on Instagram. You can find me at I am_still_learning on Instagram. And you can find me at my website if you just look up the Play Lab Foundation, the two different names will come up because one is for the mission, and one is for the program. So... 

01:02:03    Alyssa

Awesome. Love it. 

01:02:03    Kisa

Yeah. Everything's different. 

01:02:04    Alyssa

We're gonna pull that all together at some point for you, Kisa. 

01:02:06    Kisa

Thank you. Thank you.

01:02:09    Kisa

[Music]

01:02:13    Alyssa

 Hi. 

01:02:19    Rachel

Hey. 

01:02:21    Alyssa

How are ya? 

01:02:23    Rachel

I am doing pretty well. Living the soccer mom life officially with Nora. So many away games, so much driving and you know, prepping for the moose hunt. So, shooting. 

01:02:42    Alyssa

I'm obsessed, can't wait for the moose hunt. 

01:02:44    Rachel

The gun is terrifying. Like it's a .308. 

01:02:49    Alyssa

Yeah, how are you feeling? Talk me through like what's coming up for you. 

01:02:52    Rachel

So, I grew up around guns, and gun safety was drilled into my head. So now as an adult, I'm using a gun in a safe way, and I know how to use it, and I'm still scared. 

01:03:08    Alyssa

Yeah, sure. They're powerful. 

01:03:10    Rachel

They're so powerful, and they're so dangerous. And so I am like... The first couple times that I shot this, it's a .308, so there's a kick and it's loud. Cody was like, um, you can't flinch when you're trying to shoot an animal. And I was like, okay, well, I'm terrified. 

01:03:32    Alyssa

Great, I'll just stop flinching. 

01:03:35    Rachel

So I've been doing a lot of shooting. I am getting better with the flinching. Um, but like the thing about moose hunting is the animal can be like a hundred yards away, like that's a long shot. 

01:03:48    Alyssa

A football field. 

01:03:49    Rachel

Yep. Yeah, so a lot of like, we've been spending a lot of time shooting at targets at different ranges and mainly for me, it's like getting my nervous system to understand that like, I know how to use this, I'm using it safely. I don't need to be afraid, but growing up the way that I did, which was around a lot firearms. 

01:04:12    Alyssa

But actually I am afraid. 

01:04:14    Rachel

Terrified. So it will be interesting and the kids will be with us like in the vehicle which they were this last time and Nora had taken video that I didn't know and so it's like me and Cody are shooting and they're in the car with the windows up and whatever and they're like talking and playing and then I shoot and Abel goes oh my goodness that scared me so much. So we're all working through our feelings about the moose hunt right now. But yeah, I'm just trying to get my, trying to show my my body and my nervous system that like, we can handle this. 

01:04:54    Alyssa

I'm safe. 

01:04:56    Rachel

Yeah. 

01:04:56    Alyssa

I think the practicing and repetition is probably so helpful, right? For your body to learn like, oh, I've done this a bunch of times now. I am safe. I can do it. 

01:05:04    Rachel

Correct. 

01:05:04    Alyssa

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm so... I want like play by play. I would like daily updates. Do you have service there? 

01:05:12    Rachel

If I can get on to the satellite internet back at the house, I can like text using iMessage. 

01:05:19    Alyssa

Okay, great. I will be looking forward to those texts. 

01:05:25    Rachel

Oh man

01:05:26    Alyssa

So I want to update on the melatonin situation since I sat down here, I'm just going to do it. 

01:05:35    Rachel

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

01:05:35    Alyssa

Yeah. It was incredible. Spoiler alert. 

01:05:41    Rachel

I'm so happy for you. 

01:05:43    Alyssa

We did a direct overnight flight from Montreal to Vienna and Beans was like ready to snooze when we got on, but she was too jazzed with all the people around her just smiling and whatever all the things. And I ended up like once like lights were kind of going off, whatever, was like, okay, cool. We'll dose her now. And within 20 minutes, she was out in my arms. They did give us the bassinet on the plane, but they were hesitant because she is, age -wise, she is in the requirements, but we weren't totally sure about her weight and height, and she was snug in there. So she, throughout the plane ride, did two 45 -minute stretches in there, but that was it. Otherwise, she was on me or on Zach. And we just took turns so that the other one could sleep, because Sagey, same thing, once we gave him the melatonin, we waited for him until after the mealtime. 

01:06:51    Rachel

Yeah. 

01:06:52    Alyssa

And so she would like wake up, but like go back to sleep. And so for him, once he got melatonin after the mealtime, he was out in like 15 minutes and maybe a half hour, I don't know, something like that. And he snoozed until we had like half hour left. 

01:07:08    Rachel

So nice. 

01:07:09    Alyssa

And it was great. Yeah, and then we had a daytime flight on the way home. It was me and Gabby and Beans. And she, for seven and a half total hours on the plane, she slept two 45 minute naps. It sucked so hard. She did a lot of screaming because she, not because she was like crying, but because she wanted something. So she wanted to get up. She wanted to move around. She wanted to have my water bottle. She was like, just like anything, just like screaming. And there was this like, I'm going to call him 28 -year -old dude, where it's a big plane because you're flying home. So it's three separate rows or whatever. And the left, the middle, the right, we're in the middle. And it's this older woman, this 28 -year -old dude, Gabby, and then me and Beans in the aisle. There's four spots. And so Beans was like, her whole mission was to get this dude's attention and connection. And he was trying to like, watch a movie slash sleep the whole time. She would just like peek her head around and scream at him. And then smile. Like, oh my god, I'm so I'm so sorry. Reaching up trying to grab him trying to touch him. It was eventful..  

01:08:36    Rachel

That makes for a really long flight. 

01:08:39    Alyssa

It was a long seven and a half hours. Those two 45 minute naps were

01:08:42    Rachel

Not enough. 

01:08:43    Alyssa

Not enough. And then we did a two hour drive home after we got our bags. So yeah, it was, that was a long day. And she is currently waking up at about just before 5am. She has not yet adjusted. 

01:09:04    Rachel

Yeah. 

01:09:05    Alyssa

So hoping that changes soon because we're tired. 

01:09:11    Rachel

Of course you are. 

01:09:14    Alyssa

We are tired. And back on the road, me, Beans, and Gabby on Sunday. So, still we get home and then. 

01:09:22    Rachel

Oh man, it's like, I don't know how you. 

01:09:25    Alyssa

Travel season. 

01:09:26    Rachel

I know it is. I know that it is. But every time I look at your calendar, like I get that feeling in my stomach, like, oh my gosh. 

01:09:34    Alyssa

Same. Honestly, same. I love being in person though. It's like so nice to be in person with folks and to be able to, you know, next week I'm in schools all day. And to get to do that in -person work is really fulfilling for me. And it's just, yeah, logistically challenging with the travel and the kids and the whatever. 

01:09:55    Rachel

Yeah. With a nursing kid, especially. 

01:09:58    Alyssa

Yeah. 

01:09:58    Rachel

Yeah. 

01:10:01    Alyssa

Who are we chatting about today? Okay, we are chatting about Kisa and Samuel and this is--

01:10:07    Alyssa

On brand for your gun convo

01:10:12    Rachel

Legit. Rethinking weapon play in childhood. And I think my biggest--

01:10:17    Alyssa

What came up for you?

01:10:17    Rachel

My biggest takeaway that I was like uggh yes, this is like what I want to model for my kids and also for just adults in general to understand that when we come at weapon play with our adult lens, and we're like, you know, a lot of us I'm sure are thinking like we have an epidemic of school shootings and our country is like really struggling with gun violence. And so then to see kids engaging in weapon play, that's like the lens through which we're responding. Whereas like, they're saying like, wait, hold on, this is developmentally appropriate. 

01:11:02    Alyssa

Yeah, it's so hard for me. 

01:11:06    Rachel

Yeah, 

01:11:06    Alyssa

Because I want to be like, Oh, and I shared this,  Oh, well, you shot me, I'm dead.

01:11:10    Rachel

I laughed. I'm dead. So I can't play with you. Thanks for killing me. 

01:11:13    Alyssa

Sorry. Yeah. 

01:11:14    Rachel

Yeah. 

01:11:14    Alyssa

You can choose if you want to play with guns. And it's so hard for me to be like, Oh, no, this is appropriate for them. And that there is a difference between play in real life of this and what context do they need to know? 

01:11:31    Rachel

Yeah. And I think for a lot of us, we feel like we need to tell them more than they need to know. Because there's a part of me, right? And this is lessened as I've learned more about this, but like when Nora was younger, for example, there was a part of me that wanted to go into the soliloquy about death permanence and violence and all of these things that like, yeah, that's not what's happening here. Like they're just playing. Now I'm grateful for the perspective that I have having worked for Seed for the last six years because Abel is really into killing games with his friends like, oh he shot me, now I'm dead and he like falls on the ground and rolls around and stuff and there's still definitely a part of me that like has this visceral discomfort with the whole thing. And also feels this responsibility of like, at what point do I need to teach my son that because he's white, he gets to do this without consequence where other kids don't, right? So there's that whole thing. But I think - 

01:12:37    Alyssa

Well, that's what I appreciated in this. I think Kisa brought that up. 

01:12:41    Rachel

Yeah. 

01:12:41    Alyssa

Of like, it's not on the kids. We don't say to the kids, you can't play this. We as the adults need to make an equitable world where every child has access to this type of play. 

01:12:52    Rachel

Yeah, yeah, which is, yes. And it's hard for me to let go of that adult lens where I'm like, but wait, I need to make sure he knows this, this, and this. You know? 

01:13:07    Alyssa

I struggle with this in general, with a lot of things of like, because I have such a hard time with like, oh, you know, the patriarchy, white male privilege, blah, blah, that I feel like I need to teach that lesson to my child a lot and to my husband. And I have to really self -regulate around this and be mindful of it because it is something that comes up for me a lot. And I'm seeing it more now with him as a big sibling too of almost trying to even the playing field by lessening what he has access to to raise what she has access to because I'm like well the world's gonna give you, white dude, access to everything and she's not gonna have the same access that you have inherently by being a female. And yeah I feel myself like wanting to like right that ship sometimes. Yeah, it's the adult lens. It's like, it's so hard. 

01:14:18    Rachel

Is she crying? 

01:14:20    Alyssa

No, theres a bird tapping at my window instead of at the bird feeder. Like it doesn't know, the window must be very clean. It literally turned away from the food and tapped at the window. 

01:14:34    Rachel

So one of the times that this has come up for me like in the moment is that Abel's best friend is brown and they engage in this play a lot and I'm like you know there's a part of me that's like this isn't okay like this isn't gonna be safe for him when he reaches a certain age and people like adultify him and I have to step back and try to model what Kisa is talking about this where instead of telling my white kid that like, he needs to stop because it's not safe for his brown friend. I want it to be that like, we are working towards creating a world where it is safe for his brown friend to engage and develop play. 

01:15:19    Alyssa

100 % in that that is the adult's job. That's the adult's work is how do we fight for our kids to have for all of our kids to have access to this play. It's not a child's labor to take on. 

01:15:34    Rachel

And I think that was the biggest takeaway that like in the moment, it's the perspective shift of the adult. And then outside of the moment, it's like, what are we doing on a broader level, to change the culture in which our kids are growing up and engaging in play? 

01:15:54    Alyssa

100%. And those are the things where, I mean, this is just like, so in the zeitgeist now of there was the huge push for like, defund the police and all that. And there's, I feel like there's been an awakening for white folks around the realities of what is available for black children versus white children. And still, I think a lot of white folks don't know, like, what does advocacy look like? What does it look like to create a world where every child has access to this play? And I don't know if I've shared on here yet that I've been like struggling with this instance that happened at Sagey's school. And I don't think I've talked about it yet, but I want to figure out how to talk about it because it's something that I think comes up here too of like, especially liberal white communities where folks are like, we're inclusive and we practice this and we whatever, and we're going to show up to the marches and we're going to yada yada and put a flag outside of our house and whatnot. But then when it comes time to practice inclusivity and for it to be in like the discomfort of the reality of it, that the practice of it isn't embodied. And there was a child who was removed from Sagey's school who like parents I felt like ganged up on this like family and kid saying he was a bully and he was two and he was learning skills and it's like, yeah, we want to keep your kids safe, absolutely. And 

01:17:59    Rachel

You can't be a bully when you're two. 

01:18:03    Alyssa

Correct. And instead of advocating for the removal of this child, how about you advocate for this child's needs to be met, for the right supports to exist in the school or in the system for this child? And it just feels like an example for me that I think exists a lot, especially in like, white liberal communities, where it's like, we're gonna save the thing, and we're gonna put out the flag. But then when it comes time to practice it, to show up and be an advocate, and be in the discomfort, we don't live out our values that we state. 

01:18:43    Rachel

Yeah. It's performative. Yes. I have also seen this, and I don't have the answer, obviously. If we did, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but it's how, and I think this book plays an important role, the Rethinking Weapon Play in Early Childhood, because it shifts the perspective of like, it's not enough to put a flag outside of your house or, you know what I mean? Like that's not doing anything. 

01:19:23    Alyssa

Right, yeah. But I really deeply appreciate this book and this conversation I got to have with Samuel and Kisa around letting kids be kids and not stripping them of their childhood and allowing them, I think so often we try to have adult conversations with kids and it isn't appropriate. There are definitely topics and things that we can and I think should talk to kids about that maybe we didn't grow up experiencing that can be done in a developmentally appropriate manner. And, I think we often put our adult lens on these instances, and I'm so grateful for this book to be diving into how to pull back and let kids be kids and navigate the adult stuff on the side of that, and when and how to have appropriate conversations with them. That the discussion around fairness and equity and violence is a discussion that's happening separately outside the moment and isn't actually connected to their play. 

01:20:40    Rachel

Mm -hmm. Yeah. 

01:20:42    Alyssa

Yeah they're two separate things. So, I'm super stoked. I'm really hoping that also early childhood educators snag this book and that it becomes something that's featured in the, like, childcare landscape more. This is a lot for teachers to learn from this, too. 

01:21:01    Rachel

Yeah, it's a paradigm shift. 

01:21:04    Alyssa

Yeah. 

01:21:04    Alyssa

Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.

Connect with Kisa:

Instagram: @iam_still_learning

Website: https://theplaylabnfpoakpark.org/

Order the book:Rethinking Weapon Play in Early Childhood: How to Encourage Imagination, Kindness, and Consent in Your Classroom

Connect with Samuel:

Instagram:@honoringchildhood

Website: https://www.honoringchildhood.org/

Order the book:Rethinking Weapon Play in Early Childhood: How to Encourage Imagination, Kindness, and Consent in Your Classroom

Podcast: Honoring Childhood 

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Podcast page: Voices of Your Village

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Music by: Ruby Adams and  Bensound