How to Talk about Food and Bodies for Eating Disorder Prevention with Colleen Reichmann, PsyD
00:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I got to hang out with Dr. Colleen Reichmann. We dove into eating disorders and how to prevent them, how to talk about food and bodies so that we can work to have this healthy relationship with our bodies and with food. It is such a nuanced conversation. I deeply appreciate that for the podcast medium that we can have a little bit of the nuanced conversation here. And I want to let folks know that I believe there isn't a one size fits all in this conversation. We talk about that in here. If you're not in a space right now to tune into a conversation about food and bodies, take pause, listen to that, and know that it's okay. It's okay to say like, yeah, I'm not there right now. Dr. Colleen Reichmann is a licensed clinical psychologist who practices in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She's the founder of a group eating disorder therapy practice, Wildflower Therapy. She's recovered from anorexia and this experience sparked her passion for her work. She is now an eating disorder specialist and has worked at various treatment facilities, including University Medical Center of Princeton at Plainsboro Center for Eating Disorder Care and the Center for Eating Disorders at Shepherd Pratt. She is also a perinatal mental health specialist and loves working with women across the spectrum of motherhood, including those struggling with infertility and loss. She's an advocate for intersectional feminism, body liberation, and health at every size. Dr. Colleen Reichmann is the co -author of The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery: Advice from Two Therapists Who Have Been There. Alright, folks, let's dive in.
00:01:59 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:02:19 Alyssa
She's almost six months old.
00:02:21 Colleen
Oh my gosh.
00:02:22 Alyssa
We have an almost six -month -old who is just, so she's not taking any bottles, but she just started drinking from a straw cup while she's eating some solids, which is life -giving.
00:02:34 Colleen
Yes. Incredible.
00:02:36 Alyssa
Oh my gosh. I had moments early on where I was like, what happens if I die? She's refusing all bottles. How will this human survive? Very much like my body needs to be here for her to be here. And I like at one point called one of my dear friends and she was like, totally, yep, yep. We will spoon feed if we have to, like we've got this. If you die, we will make sure she's fed. And I was like, okay, okay. I like needed to know that.
00:03:11 Colleen
It is low key traumatizing. I had one that was like bottle and breastfed and it was awesome and then my daughter was like, so I'm not going to do the bottle ever and I'm going to starve myself if you leave the house. So I was like, what is happening? I literally, it's, I did not think about how almost traumatizing it is to just not be able to leave the house. Like it's, it's, it's so scary and hard when they really won't eat unless you're there to breastfeed. Like I was so alarmed after such an easy experience with my son. I was like, Who are you? What is this? What??
00:03:47 Alyssa
This both of my kids have done this. So I have a three year old. The three year old it was easier because it was COVID. So we're going anywhere anyway. And like we're all hunkered down together anyway. Save for one trip to the grocery store that I took where I was like, Oh my gosh, it's so freeing. I'm going to go to the grocery store. I'm gonna get groceries. I'm gonna come back. And it'll be great. Like I can and have like an hour to myself, you know?
00:04:14 Colleen
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:14 Alyssa
And he was a newborn and I was on the way back and I'm like three driving minutes from the house and there's a line of traffic and I'm like, what the heck, like what's going on? So I'm like chilling there, I'm like, okay, just chilling for a little bit, like fine. And then I realized like, nope, we're still not moving, we're still not moving, people are now getting out of their cars to check and see what's happening. There was an accident, and the road was blocked and I started sobbing, right? I'm just like, oh, that rush of like, oh my gosh, he's gonna be starving, I can't get to him. And I text my husband, hear nothing. I'm calling him just to like update him. Like I'm stuck in traffic, like how are things going? What do you need? And he's not answering, he's not, so in my head, I'm like, yeah, because Sage is like losing it somewhere and he can't be near his phone, whatever. Finally, I get home sweaty just having sobbed and I walk in and they're just like hanging and playing and his phone just wasn't near him and I was like, you've got to be kidding me.
00:05:22 Colleen
Yeah, it's so scary. It's truly like nobody talks about it, how when it's on you and your body to provide the nourishment, how much it can mess with your mind and your day, just your life, it's, yeah, I truly empathize.
00:05:41 Alyssa
So consuming, so consuming. How old are your kids now?
00:05:45 Colleen
They are four and two.
00:05:48 Alyssa
Okay, cool, yeah, so similar, Sagey's three and then Mila's six months. Where are you, where's home for you?
00:05:55 Colleen
I've kind of bounced around, I was born in Indiana and then came to New Jersey. Grew up mostly in New Jersey, and then did all my schooling, like when I went to college, when I went to grad school, it was all in Pennsylvania. And then I moved to Virginia for a while, and I didn't love Virginia, so I came back, and then Philly until the kids came, and then now kind of like this town suburbs of Philly.
00:06:21 Alyssa
Sure, hunkered down.
00:06:23 Colleen
Yeah.
00:06:23 Alyssa
Rad. Are your parents still in Indiana?
00:06:26 Colleen
They are in Jersey still.
00:06:28 Alyssa
Okay, Jersey. Oh, right, because Indiana, and then you moved to Jersey, right? Oh, yeah, you're not far. That's-- is that is that nice to not be far?
00:06:35 Colleen
Yeah, it's I mean, I think once you, you can't understand how like a much of a game -changer is to have parents that are one of my parents is very involved and is helping us a lot right now, and my kids are not in school. We've had some preschool up and down so they're both home with me. So, um Yeah, it's been like a game changer to have parents and also one of my in -laws is also really helpful. So, that's been, I have to be near them right now.
00:07:07 Alyssa
Yeah, that's awesome. We actually, we moved to, we were in New York City and then in Boston and we moved back to Vermont, where my husband's from, to be near his mom and her wife to raise kids, to have that support. Yeah.
00:07:22 Colleen
Yeah, it's, I mean, you don't think about it until I feel like you have kids, but it truly is like, it is next level, like such a privilege to have them involved because--
00:07:34 Alyssa
A hundred percent
00:07:34 Colleen
-- and my friends who moved like across the country and stuff, I so feel for people who don't have family that's right there because it's just, even when I was, when I was, right before my daughter came, I was like, who, if she wasn't here, if I couldn't just call my mom and say like, I mean, she's like an hour away, but can you come here because I'm in labor, like, what do you do? That is so, it's so nerve -wracking and such a, yeah, it's such a privilege to have them closer.
00:08:00 Alyssa
Yeah, it is so huge. Yeah, same. I mean, my mother -in -law took Sagey when Mila was coming, so yeah, that's huge. We, I actually, the job that I had in the Boston area, it was a conscious choice for us to move here in that, like, the job I had there doesn't exist here in Vermont. I was like, all right, I have to give up this career -wise to choose family. I mean, Seed has been incredible and it's grateful for that pivot and shift. I think part of it is that decision is so real for a lot of folks. The career versus being near family can be at odds.
00:08:43 Colleen
Yeah, it's so, and there's oftentimes, almost always, there's somebody in relationships, like when you're with a partner that has to kind of make that, somebody has to give up something normally, like, especially when it comes to career. And we definitely experienced that, especially when, when I moved to Virginia, it was for my partner. And I was like, I really I had to give up a lot of like job opportunities and stuff and things that I wanted to pursue for that relationship. So yeah, I so agree with it. All stuff that's not talked about enough, I think.
00:09:22 Alyssa
For sure, for sure. Well, for your job and Wildflower Therapy, I'm curious, I know you share about being recovered from anorexia and like your journey to this. If you're open to it, I would love to hear kind of more about at what point, like, how old were you when you realized, like, this is what I'm living with and what that journey for you looked like?
00:09:50 Colleen
So I, the eating disorder that I had developed really like middle school, high school time period and then kind of simmered and simmered because there wasn't any extreme weight loss. So it kind of went unnoticed for a while. And then in college, I started to like cycle in and out of periods of weight loss that was noticeable. And that's kind of like what got me to help, unfortunately, which I think that's a story for a lot of people. You have like, people don't pick up on eating disorders until there's noticeable weight change, which is such a shame. But yeah, so I kind of, I was in and out of different types of treatment and things until and nothing really stuck. I just was like falling back into it and I didn't super, I just wasn't super motivated. I somehow graduated college, which is alarming to me now looking back at it. I'm like questioning my alma mater like how did that happen? And then and got into graduate school for psychology because I was very interested in psychology and the therapy realm, but I really wanted to do research on eating disorders and not be in the clinical space at all. So not be a therapist or at least not a therapist working with folks with eating disorders. I felt sure that I was like that was my identity for so long. I'm finally in like somewhat of a kind of a neutral, sturdier place and then had one relapse in graduate school but had sort of a taste of like, I don't know, that something had shifted and I was like, oh, there's more of a life, like I can see a life. If I like actually really put effort into this, I could see a life outside of that identity and just pursuing thinness at all costs. And so, I felt motivated in a different way. So, got into recovery during graduate school and then about two years later started, I was working at a college counseling center because I love college students. I was also very young. So, I just feel like it's, if you're really interested in it and like passionate, you can connect so well with college students when you're like, I was just there, like I still get that. Like older folks think like roommate struggles are, you gonna roll your eyes. But I remember that is like so painful. So I just, I loved college students and with college students comes eating disorders a lot of the time. So I just realized it naturally happened that I started to get clients who had eating disorders and body image struggles. and then I was like, actually, oh my god, I need to do this. I have such an empathy chip for this particular struggle. So I pursued my pre -doctoral internship, my postdoctoral fellowship at treatment centers, and then I just kind of went from there. I wrote a book about recovery. I opened up the practice. I did some eating disorder programming at the College of William & Mary for a while, and then landed here with the group practice in Philadelphia.
00:12:55 Alyssa
When you look back at your journey as a teen or middle school kind of leading into, what do you wish folks would have noticed or observed then that you said went unnoticed until there was significant weight loss? What are some of those things, those signs, those kind of cues for folks.
00:13:23 Colleen
To give the boomer generation some credit, I don't think they had, like, nearly as many resources as we have access to and just the online discussion. And so I think parents there probably might already know what I'm going to say. But just I, it would have been good if people had noticed such a concern about my body at that time and also yeah such a concern about like running and like getting to the gym after high school and restricting foods in general and then I also think along with that my personality type made me very prone to the development of an eating disorder so I think having an antenna up for that is always really good. Like I was very, very introverted. I was very shy to the point that when I was in elementary school, my teachers would write to my mom like, Colleen doesn't talk. She picks like representatives to talk for her because she's so, because the insecurity and the self -confidence was so low and I was so shy. That's not everyone who's shy but that was certainly me. And then I think come middle school, which happens for a lot of people during that transitional time, that low confidence just really turned into self -loathing and I was just very low too, like mood -wise, baseline, very low, very like –
00:14:51 Alyssa
Disconnected?
00:14:53 Colleen
Yeah, and just sad and yeah, I didn't reach out to my parents. Often, I like kind of isolated a lot and I remember there would be times especially middle school during that like really hormonal flux. I would come home from school and just be like sobbing but I wouldn't – and my mom would be trying to ask like, why, what's, and I just wouldn't share. Like I wasn't willing to talk about it. So really like a lot of turning inward, which I think parents, it's always good to keep in mind when you have someone, a kid who's struggling with that and that baseline, maybe like lower mood and the tendency to turn inward versus externalize. That's like a high risk kid for probably a variety of mental health conditions, but eating disorders, when there's that like body and food focus, it gets very dicey.
00:15:45 Alyssa
I am curious about that word shy. We talk about it a lot here on the back end at Seed. I feel like it's an umbrella term, right? And it can mean different things for different folks. It can be that like the observer, the kid who walks into the room and just, they need a beat to like take everything in and observe and they remember all the details of everything. And it's like a superpower for this. And I think it also under that umbrella sometimes is used as a term for, I feel nervous. I have fear entering into this that I don't know what to do with. And my nervous system reaction is either to shut down or to fawn sometimes. But that can be under that same umbrella and that they're really in my mind, two different things. Sometimes they overlap. Sometimes it's both. But what I'm hearing is that like, I felt nervous in those social situations about potentially feeling embarrassed or making a mistake or not feeling included or like I belonged if I did share at school or if I did say the wrong thing at school. So I was in a conversation with, how old was she at the time? About second grade, maybe third grade. And this little girl and she was having a really hard time at school and she was crying a lot, but feeling nervous about crying. She didn't want to feel embarrassed. And I ended up chatting with her. She was like, I don't want to go to school. I don't want to go to school. I don't want to go to school. It was like the conversation she was bringing to her mom. And I had an opportunity to just sit and chat with her. And I said, I was like, yeah, it's what's going on, babe. Why don't you want to go to school? And she was like, well, I just want to cry at school. And I was like, yeah, that makes sense. I cry a lot. I cry sometimes at work, I cry at home, I for sure cried at school. What's coming up for you when you want to cry? And she was like, well, if I cry, people are going to make fun of me. And I was like, totally. I was like, there's a big word for this called vulnerable. It feels really scary sometimes to cry in front of people and to wonder, are they still going to like me? Am I going to belong here? Will I be included? And she was like, yeah, and they make fun of other kids for X, Y, and then she was like naming these things that she observed people making fun of other kids for that she's like, I do those things sometimes too. And like, what if I do that? Or what if I say that? Or what if I open my mouth and I do say the wrong thing, and they make fun of me. And we got to like talk through the emotions part of that. And really, I think so much that shifts from the like really early childhood space into then K -5, kindergarten to fifth grade is that like social inclusion belonging component. And I'm wondering if like during that time we start to see like precursors to eating disorders potentially pop up in an effort to control something when things might feel out of control. Maybe I can control how my body looks when I feel like I don't have control of other things.
00:18:54 Colleen
Yeah, I think that's definitely part of, because that pre -adolescent and then shift to puberty time is like one of the most, it's actually that, then menopause is another, they're almost like right there with how heightened the risk is, which is really fascinating, but we for sure notice like the people shifting into puberty, like that age more often when it comes to eating disorders, and I definitely think it's that it has something to do with like that is such a time of you're trying to figure out identity, you're trying to figure out connection, relationships, school, I think the world feels really scary and overwhelming at that time and so does your body and there's often this like, I think a lot of people, myself included, like stumble into these like easy button techniques like restriction or purging or just like manipulating food in some way that helps to have some access like a semblance of control and, yeah, a feeling of having a little bit more power in the situation and maybe numbness, which I think is really helpful during that time for a lot of people. And then when weight loss is part of it for when you're in that puberty stage, that is often very psychologically helpful for the child because there's something really safe. Like we humans, all humans, like all kids, adults, we love familiar. So if you're able to kind of like get yourself or stay in a familiar body, that is so like I think parents need to understand professionals, we all do, like for for everyone and especially kids, that's very psychologically soothing. Like there's there's definitely reasons why the eating disorder like forms and works for a short period of time. Like it is very functional for everyone who has one.
00:20:49 Alyssa
That's interesting, for like getting into a familiar body. So that makes sense then from the menopause change. I was wondering like what is it there? When we're looking at this, you know, one of the things that comes up for me and I think so many of us is as parents and as adults, the navigation of our own body image and relationship to our body and relationship to food. And I think it's something that we're talking about way more than, as you nodded to there, way more than our parents' generation we're having conversations about. It's so much more in the zeitgeist now of like, what does this mean in even terms like body positivity or body neutrality or health at every size? Those are things that we're hearing in ways that didn't exist when I was growing up. So I feel like we're having these conversations, but still, we didn't grow up with that, right? So, so many of us are coming to parenthood trying to figure this out and then try and raise kids who have a healthy relationship with their body or food or exercise or movement, whatever the components of that are. Gosh, can we speak to that? How do we do that when you don't have that perfectly healed relationship with food or your body or whatever?
00:22:12 Colleen
Yes. Oh my gosh. I'm so passionate about that topic because I am just, I've really had it with, I think the messaging and I do think a lot of it comes from a really good place, but online, mostly I guess social media, but just the rhetoric right now is so, there is so much pressure on parents to be perfect or you're damaging your child.
00:22:35 Alyssa
Oh my gosh.
00:22:35 Colleen
And I think it's like the, it is the pendulum swing from probably like our generation or like the boomer generation who was like, prepare them for the real world, like get them resilient and stuff. So it's like the pendulum swinging to the other side is what we're experiencing. But it is unrealistic to say that we have to, especially like millennial women, I can speak to that personally and the kind of the storm that we came of age in with like the just ideal body type--
00:23:08 Alyssa
Oprah diet culture.
00:23:09 Colleen
Yeah, and like the magazine covers, if you go back and look at like magazine covers from like 2000 are just atrocious and like it's all about pleasing men and reducing your weight. And like that's how we kind of, and Abercrombie and Fitch-esque like yeah, all of that makes it really fraught I think psychologically like our relationships with our bodies and I just don't think it's realistic to say you have to be healed or you're going to damage your child. Like I think it's really quite possible to still be navigating that like fully in struggling with your body image and your relationship with food and be a wonderful role model for your child and also like really helping every day to instill positivity around their relationship with food in their bodies. And it's never going to be perfect and we don't we don't even want it to be perfect. It's not going to be perfect and that's okay, like as long as we're, I think that falling down and getting up and like open discussions about maybe our own struggles that we've had and what we're trying to work on when they're an age that that makes sense for. That is like where it's at when it comes to body image and that positive relationship with food.
00:24:25 Alyssa
Okay, so let's go into this like how, right? First of all, thank you. Thank you for being like, yeah, you don't have to have this all figured out and all that jazz. And that it is often unrealistic, especially for those who like, there's so many body changes that happen if you grow a human and you feed a human, your body plays such a role in all of that.
00:24:49 Colleen
Yeah
00:24:50 Alyssa
Of course, there's, I think, inevitably, then like new relationships being found for the parents that are then raising these humans because if they just grew and birthed in whatever them, your body shifted, right? And so you're gonna be navigating that anyway. And thanks for the permission to just be in it. So now the how part of this. How do we help foster a relationship that fights against eating disorders that helps to possibly prevent them?
00:25:24 Colleen
I think that one thing to keep in mind is, even if we've really fallen down when it comes to advocating for ourselves or fully even buying in to health at every size, body positivity, just kind of taking a stance that we're gonna be our child's advocate in that area and try to not have weight be part of the discussion of the doctor's office, if they have coaches. My daughter's in ballet and I talked to the studio beforehand about, you know, she's two. There's not any weird like she's just not gonna come if there's any type of weirdness about this going on and so like doing like that kind of work like that like when they're out in the world like how can we make sure to truly like shield them a little bit from especially when they're at a younger age from like numbers talk and talk about food being like junk or healthy like just that type of chatter. And then, but the thing is we can't shield them like they're gonna go to as soon as my son was in the preschool environment, he started coming home and saying like, that's not healthy for certain foods. So like, we can only do so much out there, but in the home, really working to make it like just a peaceful place where I think food, it's okay to want your kids to like enjoy healthy food and that's like a great goal, like traditionally healthy food. But also like trying to have food being upfront about like, it can also play like a really pleasurable role and some food is fun like and sometimes we eat when we're hungry and sometimes we eat when we're not hungry and like just kind of providing little tidbits of like education that's very neutral to joyful, like gearing to the more joyful realm starting from really early like I do it with my two -year -old and we have books and things like that that talk about like body diversity and just things that--I was reading her Bodies Are Cool. I don't, do you know that book?
00:27:28 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:27:28 Colleen
I was reading that last night and I had a moment where I was like, oh what would have been like like even just this. Like just this little book that I read her like every so often if I had that I think. Not saying it would have like saved me but I think like shifts would, maybe different synaptic connections would have formed.
00:27:47 Alyssa
But a data point that you didn't have.
00:27:50 Colleen
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, she even, she has a, what's it called? Like a strawberry hemangioma, a large one on her stomach. And there's, and Bodies Are Cool, the author doesn't just talk about like big bodies, small bodies, she's also talking about like bodies with different patches on their skin. And she was like, like mine, like lifted up her shirt and I was like, ah, this is just the most like, ugh, yummy moment right now. And so things like that from really early on. And then on the same token, and like having really sex positive discussions and discussions about like body parts where you're really trying to take shame out of it using that, you know, anatomically correct terms. Like it doesn't have to all be about food and weight also. It's like broadly, like how do we take shame away from the discussion about bodies?
00:28:39 Alyssa
Yeah, love this. One of the things that I find annoying in the social media world with young kids now as a parent is the idea of like, just food as fuel. And it's like, sure, sometimes, right? Like, but last night I was at an event and had a delicious, delicious little strawberry shortcake thing, which like, side note, I had Mila in a wrap on my body. And it was like, I fully spilled like whipped cream all down the side of my dress. It was like, I was a hot mess in this entire scenario. Other moms had to come in and like help wipe me up.
00:29:20 Colleen
Yeah.
00:29:21 Alyssa
Real. Just keepin’ it real in this really nice dress at this event. And I'm like, and covered in whipped cream.
00:29:29 Colleen
It's how it goes, sometimes.
00:29:29 Alyssa
Oh, my gosh. But yeah, but like that also, and like, that's not for fuel. That's for fun. That's because it's absolutely delicious, and I want to enjoy it. And another like, thing that I find kind of annoying in this space, is this idea of like, you're gonna learn to listen to your hunger cues. From a sensory perspective, we talk a lot about the eight sensory systems. And I have two humans who have very different sensory processing. The way that they process the world and process stimuli is very different. And my older child has heightened interoceptive awareness. So he has, from a very young age, known, like he potty trained really early. He can, he knows those internal cues of I have to go pee I have to go poop when he's hungry, it's like zero to a thousand right like he's hangry because he feels it so soon that by the time it like adds up he's really hungry. Right like those internal cues. He also from an emotional regulation perspective It was easier to teach him things like how does your heart feel? Is it beating fast, like what's happening inside your body? He notices those internal cues in a way that I don't even, like we're all on the spectrum when it comes to interoceptive awareness. And then my daughter's interoceptive awareness is so different and like you can see it already at six months and what it can present as often is like more flexible. Where like she doesn't go zero to a thousand when she's hangry or when she's tired. She has a little more like wiggle room because those internal cues aren't as strong for her, right?
00:31:13 Colleen
Yeah.
00:31:13 Alyssa
And so this is one thing that like in the food world where it's like, they'll just listen to their hunger cues. They'll know when they're full or when they're hungry or like they, if you feed them every two to three hours on this schedule, then that'll be like right for them. They won't need any snack in between or whatever. And I was like, that's true for one my kids. And for the other one, that's not applicable actually a lot of the time. And so I'm curious of just like within your research and in your work, how interoceptive awareness has played a role in connection to the body and also potentially eating disorders here?
00:31:54 Colleen
Yeah, it's such an interesting question because I have really shifted. My son has taught me so much about this, he's neurodivergent. And I started to notice that probably around like a little before a year old, actually much before that because starting eating like took a very long time. So I started to notice that early on and got interested in interoceptive awareness because I just noticed from probably one on, that I didn't think he was where same age peers were with like those cues, very like not in touch with them or just less so. So, I've come to, over the past...
00:32:34 Alyssa
Like hypo -sensitive.
00:32:35 Colleen
Yeah, like he really struggles, like potty training is still something we, it's an everyday process and whereas my daughter is neurotypical or as of right now, that's how she seems and she's already, she's, you know, two and has it down. And I've just really seen the difference in also food, emotions, like, yeah, understanding heart rate, like all of that stuff. he has like so much more work he has to do to like get in touch with it. And it's made me more and more critical, honestly. I've always been quite critical of like the diet culture -esque food space, of course, like as an eating disorder professional and a health at every size professional. But I'm now taking a really critical eye to the intuitive eating space as well because because it's really failed us, these messages about like, their kids will listen to their bodies and if you just give them unfettered access to all the sugar and all the food, they will, trust them to modulate and they'll just kind of fall in line and it'll all work out. And that has not, that's truly, it works like beautifully for my daughter. It doesn't work for, like, it truly fails him. He doesn't fail at it. It's like an approach that fails him. So, that messaging really at this point, like, it makes me, I have like anger sometimes towards the intuitive eating space because I'm like, you're not being, it's not nuanced enough. You're not, you're missing a whole group of people and parents and the kids, like you're, this discussion is not nuanced enough and there's got to be a way that we can bridge like not shaming sugar and like all foods fit like that whole that beautiful mentality with like people who need more structure and help understanding like what foods will feel better for them over time. Yeah like kids and adults but as a parent I'm just like I'm angry at this point.
00:34:40 Alyssa
Yeah I'm also angry and it sounds like so I have a child who's hypersensitive. And we identified as sensory sensitive, I think also would be classified as neurodivergent in a lot of spaces. But for him, it's that hypersensitive piece is how that shows up. And it sounds like for your little guy, it's hyposensitive. And two different sides of this pendulum, right? And then potentially having daughters that are in the middle of this pendulum. And when we look at this, it's like, there are probably some things like very structured eating that will work really well for one side of it and the other side where it's like, yeah, there's going to be other things that come into play here. There needs to be more flexibility for this human. And what I love about what you were just saying is like, that approach fails him. He isn't failing the approach. And that there isn't, I don't think a one size fits all approach. I don't think that that exists. And that instead it's us figuring out like, who's this kid?
00:35:44 Colleen
Yes.
00:35:44 Alyssa
What's happening with their body? How do they show up in the world and process? And then what approach makes sense for that child?
00:35:52 Colleen
Yes. Yeah, like the individualized approach. And I think I've had to kind of, I see it as sort of like carving my own path. Like I've tried to really quiet the noise and be like, no, I know there's like intuition here, as his mother and like someone who's known him since when he was a, we did IVF. So I saw him and he was like an embryo being put into me, and I was like, I feel, I know this kid and like I've learned with him. And so how do I tune out the noise? And I truly like deeply with every intention it's always to come from a place of not shaming like food choices and never shaming his body or trying to micromanage his body while also being like, I'm not, I cannot, I think I'd get like raked through the coals for this on social media, but I can't leave all the snacks out and the cabinet open. And that's every single person, like on that has said to do that. I hear it all the time, every day, like just let them go and grab what they want. And we cannot do that. But I'm always like, okay, I need a creative approach. I'm melding like different areas and I'm gonna make this work for him. I'm gonna do, the only thing I can do is every day show up and we try our best together. And I try to instill the messages while also providing structure that works for him.
00:37:13 Alyssa
Yeah, one, now I have a personal question for you. So one thing that we have noticed in this process is, I definitely can't have a cabinet open free for all snacks. He needs structure around food. He would eat fruit and bread for every meal choice, if that was his option for all the things. And when he doesn't have some protein -rich food, he is a disaster. He can't function. He can't move through the day. Everything is harder, right?
00:37:54 Colleen
Yes.
00:37:55 Alyssa
But it's never his first choice. And so one thing that we've had to figure out how to navigate is like how to talk about these foods and what they do in his body and why these types of foods and food that has protein and we'll talk about it, not just like this food, but like protein foods, foods that have a lot of protein, what they do in our body and why we put them on our plate and why our body needs all different kinds of foods and that this one sometimes isn't our first choice and this is what it does for us. And I'm like, I don't know if I'm doing that right, but what we've learned from him of like, we did it for a long time to like serve the food and they choose what to eat and how much. And he was like, great, I would like to have grapes. And that's all I'm gonna have. And I will not touch another thing on this plate. And he's like, I'm all done. And like, see ya. And then in 30 minutes, he's a sobbing, melting mess. And we're like, yeah, cause you need food. Your body needs food. But he won't gravitate toward it, you know? And so I'm just curious your thoughts. And like, as we're in this individualization around talking about food, like I find this balance I'm like, I don't know if I'm doing this right, because I want him to have, obviously, a healthy relationship with food and starting to learn what his body needs. And he doesn't have that yet. And we talk about, in our household, one of the phrases we use a lot is like, what are we still learning? Like, when I repair with him, I'll say like, I'm still learning what it feels like when I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm trying to notice it so that I can calm my body and be kind to you, you know? And so we'll talk about, somebody hurts somebody else at childcare and he tells us about it. we'll talk about, like, I wonder if that kid's still learning. So they might be learning to say, like, I want to be next. And we talk about this with him. We're like, sometimes you're still learning what it feels like in your body when you need an energy food. And we're here to help you.
00:40:05 Colleen
Yeah. First of all, same in the don't know if I'm doing it right. I'm still very much learning. I feel like every year he's taught me so much. And so, yes, still learning. but I really try to take a similar approach and I think it also has to do with like developmental level. So I'm really excited for when we can hopefully have more discussions where it seems to like land that certain foods are really gonna like help you feel good long -term and your body's like craving this. So right now I just also try to sprinkle in like similar and what I really hold tight to is one thing that I do, I firmly do, I stay rooted in like I believe in health at every size in the sense that I really believe that there is a much broader range of health and bodies. First of all, all bodies are worthy of course and quote -unquote healthy bodies are there's a much broader range when it comes to like weight and shape and all that than we've been given the idea of. Yeah, we've been told there's just one narrow, this is what you need to like look like and be like and I don't, I fully do not believe that. So I like hold tight to the fact that I'm coming from the place of like I really don't plan to micromanage his body. I think his body like is going to do what it needs to do and is going to land where it wants to land. So with that in mind like that I'm really I'm gonna stay firm to not micromanaging his weight. I'm coming from a very pure place when I have these discussions about like I I really want you to like have energy and feel good. So like, as the parent, I need to try to provide some structure for you because when you go nine hours, like and only eat fruit snacks, that leaves you really upset and like really dysregulated and it doesn't change. And it's not gonna shift on your own. Like you will always come back to fruit snacks.
00:42:08 Alyssa
Yeah, exactly.
00:42:10 Colleen
So I'd like, I try to say like, this is gonna make you feel really like you will probably feel sick over time. And like, I try to sprinkle in that education, but I'm excited for the more, cause it sounds like you're getting to have like a little bit more nuanced discussions with him. And that's, I think that's like to come. Yeah, so tailoring it to like their developmental.
00:42:34 Alyssa
I mean I don’t know if its sticking...But yeah.
00:42:35 Colleen
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:37 Alyssa
We're having it., I see it as just like a boundary like I do with sleep, right? Like when he's like, I don't wanna go to bed And I'm like, totally, bud, it's so fun to hang out. One of my jobs as your parent is to make sure that you have access to enough sleep to keep your body healthy and strong. And that is, it for me feels like a boundaries approach, but it is often at odds with the, I'm gonna say best practice, or sometimes the division of responsibility work of they choose what and how much, and I choose what's on the plate. If we do that, then he literally only eats the fruit.
00:43:14 Colleen
Yeah.
00:43:17 Alyssa
And yeah, it seems like he doesn't have that, he's still learning what that means to serve his own body food that it's gonna need to last the next two hours.
00:43:32 Colleen
Yeah, and it is so like, there are so many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to opinions on this and like opinions on parenting and what's gonna long -term traumatize your child. And I've really had to be like, I'm gonna unfollow a great deal of accounts.
00:43:49 Alyssa
Yeah, same.
00:43:49 Colleen
And just really, cause if I just tune into like how I would be without all the opinions, I would be like, no buddy, like I'm gonna help you go to sleep. I can't just let you, what, you know, like pace around your room.
00:44:04 Alyssa
Because you don't want to sleep.
00:44:06 Colleen
Yeah, like, and I have to provide you like some structure and education around food and yeah like I would try to like just be like gentle and firm though with boundaries and I, I don't know I come back to that a lot like what would I do if I didn't have all these like people tell me what was gonna traumatize them and that's been helpful I think.
00:44:28 Alyssa
Yeah I appreciate that I think sometimes it's hard to tune into with our own stuff from childhood if it's like well I know what I maybe don't want to do--
00:44:38 Colleen
Yes.
00:44:38 Alyssa
Like I have memories of sitting at the dinner table crying because I didn't want to eat the fish, but I was told I had to eat the fish. So I'm like, I know what I don't want to do, but if we haven't had models for what we do want to do, I think sometimes it's hard to tap into, what do I do here? I wrote in Tiny Humans, Big Emotions, sometimes I open my mouth and my mom comes out and sometimes that's great. Sometimes I totally want to pass that on. And sometimes I've spent a lot of time and money and therapy trying to not pass that on. And so, those are the times where it's like, okay, I don't feel like I necessarily know what to do in this scenario. I just know what I feel like I don't want to do. And that's where sometimes it's interesting. Before we wrap up, I want to be mindful of your time. I'm wondering if you can speak to the exercise/movement part of this. I think especially as we look into older kids, as you're in that kindergarten to fifth grade range and there's this inclusion and belonging and now sports and activities like that, you were talking about ballet even at two, but looking at that part and how we approach conversations or even notice little flags of like, hmm, I'm wondering what their relationship with this movement is and how do I step in to support that relationship?
00:46:02 Colleen
Yeah, I think I definitely with sports I feel strongly and maybe this is I've just I've had so many clients that have had really damaging experiences with coaches from like an early age onward through like when you get into college and the college athletes like that there's just so much, it can be so fraught. So I do feel like one thing that feels important at least for me is to talk to anyone who's to be involved with them with sports beforehand and just be like
00:46:33 Alyssa
And say what?
00:46:33 Colleen
I like to say what I do like to say like what's your stance on like bodies and weight and like will you be making any, do you, is it typical for you to make body comments or comments about their food choices, and then hear what they have to say, because I think if I just say like I don't want this this and this people will like Yes Ma'am me and I don't I want to know like no what's your state, like let's see can we work with this or? And then I also like to like just keep an ear, especially when they're younger, keep an ear out for the vibe of the, like there was one ballet studio room that they said all the right things with food and bodies, but then I heard the ballet teacher when we came out, she like walked up with another girl to the mom, a two -year -old was like 'best in the class, like incredible'. And I was like, I don't think I like this. I'm not gonna like just pull out right now, but I don't know if I wanna listen now because they're two, this should be fun at this age.
00:47:32 Alyssa
We're not looking for best in the class right now.
00:47:34 Colleen
Yeah, my daughter's arguably like, I think she would probably, if she was ranking them, she's certainly going to say worst in the class because she's just like running around, like having a good time. Yeah, like she's literally in diapers. Let's back up. So keeping a close ear on all of that and then with like, and yeah, talking to coaches and making sure you're like kind of talking to your kids about, I think joyful movement is actually really important if it's, if we're like able to access it for mental health and for like physical health. And kids are great with joy at a really young age. They are like, a lot of times they teach me like, oh yeah, we ran and stopped and ran and stopped. Like that's why maybe running and running doesn't feel like super fun because we're kind of like dogs at a dog park or they are my kids. So, like they just listen to what's fun and they do that. So I also think, of course, and I'm sure most parents know this, but checking in with your kids about like what's still fun. And like, I'm guessing parents of older kids are probably also walking that really tough line of like, when do I push? And say like, sometimes it's worth it to go even if you don't want to. And like, there's like another reward at the end of that. And when do I say like, no, it's really, I'm gonna listen to you. This is not fun anymore. Like this is a pattern of not being fun, which I just wouldn't. I have so much empathy, I think that's really challenging and it's probably a constant line to walk.
00:49:06 Alyssa
For sure. Well, and I was an athlete my whole growing up. I played soccer and basketball and I didn't love like long runs for soccer or doing sprints and the conditioning that then led to me being able to have the energy to play in a full soccer game and show up in the soccer game the way that I wanted. But I loved the soccer game part, right? And so the conditioning part, I think, helped me be a better soccer player, a better basketball player. But those parts where I wasn't like, can't wait to go to sprints, like,
00:49:42 Colleen
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:43 Alyssa
But then like, yeah, I do want to play in soccer. And what I think would have been helpful maybe for people to connect is like, yeah, this part, not fun to train for. And then it feels so good when you're in the game and you can beat that person to the ball and get there. And this is how you get there. This part fuels that. And that it's okay if not all of it is fun. If you want to do this fun part and actually have fun with it, where you feel like, I'm having a good time over here. I am able to get to the ball some time. I am able to keep up. I can play the whole game without feeling like, oh my gosh, I don't have the endurance for it. This is kind of the prerequisite to that.
00:50:28 Colleen
Yeah. Those like rich conversations. Those are so -
00:50:31 Alyssa
Yeah. The connection of those two.
00:50:33 Colleen
Yeah.
00:50:34 Alyssa
Rather than just like, yeah, we do sprints and it sucks. And then eventually we get to play the game. But that connection, I think would've been helpful, but I just like the idea of movement as fun and how many of us as adults still need that message. And it's interesting because it mirrors what we were talking about I think a little bit earlier actually with the need for nuance in that discussion because I think sometimes I only choose to do, I have a red, yellow, green system for exercise where the red is like if I only wanted to pursue weight loss and I hate it. That one I don't do anymore. Yellow's like, I don't know, I think about weight loss when I do it and I still like it. And then green's like, I would do it even if I knew 100 % that it didn't change my body. And I always tell people, it's really great to live in the green if you can when it comes to movement. And still, even the green movement, sometimes I'm really tired, especially having young kids, and I'm like, I don't know if I want to. It doesn't feel super joyful. I'm gonna do it, and then I get started. And this isn't always because sometimes I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna this is an alarm. I'm gonna press snooze, forget it for today. Um, but I do think there's nuance there like it's, it's joyful movement. Sometimes you have to kind of like push yourself to participate in that and that's okay to say like it's all grey area.
00:52:01 Alyssa
And if then once you're there you're having fun that's different than if once you're there, you're not having fun still.
00:52:05 Colleen
Yeah and you hate it, and there's no shame in being like, no, I can't access it today. I need to sleep. That's more what I need today.
00:52:14 Alyssa
I deeply appreciate that nuance. Well, Dr. Reichmann, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery: Advice from Two Therapists Who Have Been There. Where else can folks find you, find your work, connect with what you're up to?
00:52:34 Colleen
Yeah, thanks for having me, by the way, this was such a good discussion, but they can find me at my website is just ColleenReichmann.com and all my contact information is on the website and then an Instagram is @DrColleenReichmann. I have a TikTok that I'm just not as, I'm trying, I'm just not as active on there, but that's also @DrColleenReichmann and I think those are the main ways.
00:53:00 Alyssa
Perfect. Well, thank you so much. This is such a helpful conversation to have.
00:53:05 Colleen
Yes, thank you.
00:53:06 Colleen
[Music]
00:53:13 Alyssa
What are you smiling about over there?
00:53:16 Rachel
I was just thinking about, Cody and I got into a disagreement a couple weeks ago. And it got pretty heated. And one thing that he kept saying throughout it was that I needed to do more research. Um, and obviously,
00:53:35 Alyssa
You're the research queen, obviously,
00:53:37 Rachel
Literally I'm always doing research. Um, so then I got kind of passive aggressive and made him a PowerPoint, but, um, we ended up just laughing about it. Um, but.
00:53:56 Alyssa
I love this.
00:54:01 Rachel
Yeah, it was it was pretty good. We've come a long way in our like,
00:54:09 Alyssa
Just thinking that actually
00:54:10 Rachel
--ways of being when we're disagreeing. There was a time when him telling me to do more research would have led to me like flipping out. And I just let him get it off his chest. Then I was just like, okay, you're wrong, and we can circle back to this later. And when we circled back, I just had a little presentation for him, but it ended up just making us laugh.
00:54:39 Alyssa
That's so good. Yeah, you have built so many conflict skills. I feel like over the last, like since COVID really, like the last like five, six years have been -
00:54:51 Rachel
Realy since Abel.
00:54:53 Alyssa
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:56 Rachel
Nothing like postpartum depression to really show you where your weak spots are.
00:55:00 Alyssa
Sure. Well, in all fairness, like you got married and then you had Nora and then not long after Nora you had cancer and it's like -
00:55:08 Rachel
Also we got married when we were like 12.
00:55:10 Alyssa
Correct.
00:55:10 Rachel
I was 21 and he was 23.
00:55:13 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:55:14 Rachel
So we didn't even fully understand ourselves yet.
00:55:17 Alyssa
Totally.
00:55:18 Rachel
We weren't fully formed adults yet.
00:55:20 Alyssa
Sure.
00:55:21 Rachel
A lot of my values and ideas about the world were not fully formed yet. Like there's just, whoo baby. We have had to, we've grown up inside of our marriage.
00:55:36 Alyssa
But legit, but there wasn't like a, you know, I feel like when you're in the thick of it, postpartum with Nora, not the time to like be building new skills. And then you got cancer. It's like, that's what we're not focusing on right now? Our conflict resolution skills. And then, yeah, and then you were cancer -free and for a year and then pregnant with Abey.
00:56:01 Rachel
And then COVID.
00:56:03 Alyssa
Well, then postpartum depression, then COVID.
00:56:05 Rachel
Yes.
00:56:06 Alyssa
Yeah, and finally the rubber met the road and you're like, well, we gotta work on some skills together here.
00:56:11 Rachel
Yeah, and I'm really grateful.
00:56:13 Alyssa
Cheers to doing the work.
00:56:14 Rachel
He has been -
00:56:16 Alyssa
Incredible.
00:56:17 Rachel
Incredible, it's not easy to be married to somebody who does this for their job and then-- because I come into it and I'm like well here's the way if you're interested in knowing it.
00:56:32 Alyssa
I thought you were gonna say it's not easy to be married to me but I like how you put in 'somebody who does this for their job'.
00:56:39 Rachel
I mean it's also not easy to be married to me but yeah he has been incredible and is like always willing to think about something in a different way and isn't afraid to tell me I need to do more research, but is a rad partner.
00:56:59 Alyssa
But he wasn't always, right? Like, I feel like you both weren't always in a space where you were ready to see an outside opinion other than your own. No. And it's been really cool to watch y 'all do the work in building the skills, because this is what I want for kids too. You're gonna have conflict for the rest of your life. We're gonna have conflict. It's not going anywhere. It's learning how to have conflict that's so important. And that's what y 'all have built is how do we have conflict? And what does that look like? And I think it's so cool and we get to model that for kids too. Just the other day in the car, something happened, I don't remember what it was. And I like snapped towards Zach, and Sage was like, what's happening up there? He's in his car seat in the back, what's happening up there? And he's still rear facing and so he can't see us, he can just like hear the tension.
00:57:57 Rachel
Yeah, the vibe.
00:57:58 Alyssa
And yeah, exactly. And then I just like broke it down. I was like, Dad did X, Y, and Z. I felt nervous about it and I wasn't kind. I'm gonna pause and calm my body and speak kinder to Dad and we'll figure this out. And then we had the like figuring it out conversation where he could hear it. And it's, I think it's so rad that he like kind of called me out on it. Like what's happening up there? Because it made me slow down and be kind and regulate.
00:58:31 Rachel
Yeah. Also the opportunity. I think sometimes, obviously I don't want my children to witness Cody and I like at each other's throats. I don't think that's healthy, but I think sometimes we swing in the totally opposite direction and we don't show our kids just the basic like heated discussion or disagreement. We want to hide all of that from them. And like, I don't think I ever saw my parents argue or, and it happened, of course it did, but I didn't see it. And so like, I didn't have like a framework for what it looks like in an adult relationship for when that stuff comes up. Um, and I think my parents thought that they were doing right by us by not showing us that. Um, and like I said, there's a, there's a line, right? Like, I don't think kids should be exposed to like toxic--
00:59:25 Alyssa
Well, I think if you can't have healthy conflict yet, then yeah, the kids shouldn't be exposed to it because what we're trying to do is model healthy conflict. If you're going to navigate healthy conflict, model it.
00:59:38 Rachel
Yeah, I feel the same.
00:59:40 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. So cool. I, I'm proud of y 'all and jazzed for those tiny humans who get to see it.
00:59:49 Rachel
Thanks. Samesies
00:59:52 Alyssa
Powerpoint included. Who did we get to chat about today?
00:59:59 Rachel
Okay, today, we are talking about Colleen Reichmann. This is the eating disorder prevention.
01:00:05 Alyssa
Yeah. I, since this episode was just like engaging more with her stuff on Instagram. So it's been showing it to me more and she's a solid follow. I really enjoy following her on Instagram and really liked this conversation too. Gosh, it's so hard. I am living right now in a body that feels very foreign to me and is reacting in ways it's just never reacted. I'm just in a very different body than I've literally ever known, and I'm trying to model – we have a sign on my desk, your values are only your values if you live them. So I'm trying to live my values here and what I want to be modeled while simultaneously having a part of me that is having a hard time living into that.
01:01:03 Rachel
Yeah.
01:01:04 Alyssa
I think just like doing this while you're raising kids is hard.
01:01:09 Rachel
Super hard. Yeah. I also struggle with this. Actually I'm writing right now in our book, in the Respecting Diversity chapter, I'm writing about a time where Abel pointed out somebody's body and how it made me uncomfortable and and how like later as I was reflecting on it, I was thinking like I've made an effort to like talk about bodies positively in front of him and be inclusive and not talk about food in terms of like, this is healthy, this is not healthy. Then I was thinking like, well, how many times has he overheard me complaining to Cody about the way my clothes fit or not liking the way I look in this or watched me get dressed and see that I don't like the way that I look and I change, and sometimes with this stuff, I think that our explicit attitudes about it in front of our kids are what we want, but then the implicit stuff, our behaviors, the nonverbal, the stuff they witness are over here, sends a different message. And I had, I was diagnosed with anorexia when I was nine or 10, and I still have some like really deeply ingrained beliefs about my own body and it's so easy for me to look at another body and be like yeah that's great you're normal you're perfect you don't need to change anything. Never have I ever felt that way about myself and although I've tried not to let my kids see that they have obviously.
01:02:52 Alyssa
Sure.
01:02:52 Rachel
So yeah it just had me thinking about the nonverbal and like behavioral messages that we sometimes send kids unintentionally, particularly around weight because for kids in elementary school, especially like one of the number one like stigmas is around weight. So it's something that I am being mindful of, A, as we write our book and B, as I have two kids in elementary school. So this episode just like brought up for me some areas of growth. And also like, I loved how at the end, I felt like I left with like some tangible ideas for how to do a better job at this.
01:03:34 Alyssa
Yeah, I have a question that came up and some things to unpack. Question, when thinking about like the part or parts of you that exist, that even doing all the work and healing and all that, those parts are still going to exist. Is there room for, I'm thinking especially with like Nora being nine and just on the older end of like our tiny humans, a discussion where you share like, yeah, this is something I experienced in my childhood. Here, here's how I got there. Like these were messages that I used to see or hear in magazines or on shows and this is what happened for me for a little while and sometimes those thoughts still come up for me and I know and then that self, right, the like present day self I know that this is what it means to be healthy or all bodies are beautiful or whatever but for them to know these parts of us.
01:04:41 Rachel
Yeah yeah I mean I just, just thinking about like the media that we were exposed to in our generation around bodies.
01:04:51 Alyssa
Yeah.
01:04:53 Rachel
It makes so much sense that so many of us came out of that with -
01:04:59 Alyssa
There was no Birds Papaya, like all bodies are beautiful.
01:05:04 Rachel
There was nothing, there wasn't even like body neutrality.
01:05:06 Alyssa
No.
01:05:08 Rachel
It was like, I specifically remember this like tabloid that came out of Jessica Simpson and she was painted as being like, basically like disgusting, huge, whatever. Something went around on TikTok that was like breaking down media from that time period. And she was like a size four when -
01:05:30 Alyssa
It's disgusting.
01:05:30 Rachel
So like in our young brains, we were being told like, if you're size four, you're gross. Like, it's just, it's unfathomable, really.
01:05:43 Alyssa
Yeah. But I think like being as the kids get older, cause they're gonna see these parts of us sometimes, right? Helping them have context for that and then understand that like, oh, that's what's happening. That part is coming up for you. In the same way that I will break down for Sage just the other day, said, oh, I had shared a, he was climbing on a thing and I felt nervous about it and said something and then I pulled back And I was like, you know what, buddy, one time when I was little, something happened and here's how people reacted. And now I just noticed that there's a part of me when you're climbing up there that was feeling nervous because what happened with me, you are safe. I was safe when I was climbing up there when I was little too. And just like, try to acknowledge those parts of me and where they're coming from in my explanation to him when I'm repairing usually, honestly. And yeah, I wonder if there's room for that here, if that would be a part of best practice.
01:06:45 Rachel
I think that it can and should happen. Kind of, I think as you're talking about it, I think it's a way to help kids separate, like sometimes the way I treat my own body is not in alignment with my values about bodies as a whole and how they get to exist in this world and helping my kids to have a separation of like, yeah, when mom complains about how her jeans are cutting her stomach in half, her feelings about her stomach in this moment are not in alignment with her values around bodies in general.
01:07:23 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah.
01:07:24 Rachel
That's a good reminder for me, especially with Noni. She's at the age where I was starting to really internalize this stuff. Yeah.
01:07:38 Alyssa
One of the things that, as I've been talking to basically like anybody who has a kid between kindergarten and fifth grade range right now, I'm just like, can I chat with your kids? And so I've just chatted with a bunch of kids and different questions for different age groups. But one thing that has come up a lot with the boys in this, especially as they are on the older end of this, the third to fifth grade range, is the muscles and the bulking and whatever. I was like, wow, man, it's everybody and it's everywhere. I started to think, I wonder if there's anyone that exists that truly is like, yeah, I really don't think about my body?
01:08:30 Rachel
Yeah, I don't think I've ever met anybody yet.
01:08:33 Alyssa
I've not met anybody yet. And then it had me thinking like, are we barking up the wrong tree? Like, is it that you can get to that place? Or is it the awareness and acknowledgement and acceptance of, yeah, sometimes those thoughts are going to come up and I'm going to notice them and allow them and move through them, right?
01:09:01 Rachel
I think its that. Yeah, I think it's that. I don't think, in our culture, it's so appearance -based. I just, I don't think that we could ever get to a point.
01:09:20 Alyssa
Yeah.
01:09:20 Rachel
Cody's getting home from a big trip. Honey, I'm recording, so can you tell your son to shut up? The animal, the dog. And then you're going to have to vacate. This microphone picks up on everything.
01:09:40 Alyssa
Well, I was thinking, like, I can imagine down the road my kids saying something and sharing their insecurities. I love him, sharing their insecurities and to honestly, I'm just like, yes, same. Like I felt that before and not trying to make it go away. Not like, no, you're so beautiful. Like that's not what beauty is and there's whatever at every size. Like I think in those moments where I'm like, hey, I'm feelin’ this. I just want somebody to be like, yeah, totally. I've been there. I hate that bloated feeling when you're close to your period and nothing fits. And...
01:10:19 Rachel
Yeah, just the validation. Like, I think about when I was dealing with anorexia and like really restricting my food intake and something that I heard a lot from my parents was like, you are beautiful, you're perfect the way you are, you're this, you're that. And I wonder what would have happened if they would have been able to be like, yeah, it seems like you feel like you don't belong unless you look a certain way. Like what's going on?
01:10:54 Alyssa
'And I felt that too sometimes.'
01:10:55 Rachel
Yeah.
01:10:57 Alyssa
'I've wanted to look certain ways too. And isn't it wild that like, there's so much messaging out there about how we're supposed to look.'
01:11:07 Rachel
Yeah. So I think like one thing that I took from this is that my, obviously my hope is that neither of my children ever experience this, But my hope is that if my children do go through a period of time where they're navigating disordered eating or they're dealing with poor body image, that I am able to come at it with curiosity and compassion and not invalidation or you need to eat this, you can't leave the dinner table unless you eat this.
01:11:45 Alyssa
Yeah, fear and control.
01:11:47 Rachel
Yeah.
01:11:48 Alyssa
Because it's so scary.
01:11:50 Rachel
It's so scary. I mean, food is a biological need. I feel compassion for what my parents must have felt when I, I remember sitting at, so I only let myself have, this might be triggering for people who have dealt with disordered eating, but I'm going to share a specific. I was only allowed to have seven grams of fat a day, which is about what's in like one cheese stick.
01:12:11 Alyssa
So for yourself, that was your rule?
01:12:13 Rachel
That was my rule. Seven grams of fat a day. And I remember sitting at the dinner table and my mom had made me an egg. And I couldn't eat the yolk because I was already – I was too close to my seven. Like, if I ate the yolk, it was going to go over. And she didn't want me to leave the dinner table unless I ate it because, of course, she was scared. So she was doing her best to try to figure out, like, how do I get this kid to eat? And we went back and forth. And it was this power struggle. And I never ate the egg. And eventually, I left the table. First of all, we have so many more resources and tools for navigating this, but not letting my fear get in the way of how I want to be as a parent is like an issue for me in a lot of domains in parenthood. And this one in particular, I think, is challenging because it is really scary. It's food.
01:13:07 Alyssa
Yeah.
01:13:07 Rachel
So my hope is that I can use some of the strategies that she spoke about in this and not come at it from a fear and control. Basically, I don't wanna treat my kids the way I treated myself.
01:13:23 Alyssa
Sure, sure. And I think your superpower in this, if your kids were to ever experience disordered eating is compassion for their experience because you've experienced it. And I think there are some things where like when you haven't experienced it, you can do your best to connect and believe the other person, but there's a difference in connection when you're like, Gah, I know that feeling. I have experienced that.
01:14:03 Rachel
Yeah. I mean, it's like what you were talking about with Zach and Sage earlier, how Zach sometimes just gets Sage because they have the same sensory systems. And that, it does, it makes a really big difference.
01:14:16 Alyssa
Yeah, yeah, because I can theoretically understand, oh, Sage is overwhelmed and needs a break from this hang. And my body doesn't need a break from the hang at that time and Zach's does. And so Zach's like, not just like, oh, I can theoretically understand it. He's like, I know what that feels like in my body so deeply. I also want that. Beans and I are just like, yeah, sure. Let's keep hanging. Yeah, I think that will be your superpower in this. If you ever need to call on it.
01:14:52 Rachel
Yeah, let's hope not.
01:14:54 Alyssa
Let's hope not. Let's hope not. I got internally very snippy. I've been feeling more and more triggered by, which I think is part of me and my own journey in this body, when people comment on Mila's body. The other day I was like wearing her in the carrier and she was in shorts and a tank top, so just like all rolls are out. And someone was like, oh, how old is she? And I was like, oh, she's eight months. And they're like, oh, wow, she's a healthy one, huh? And I wanted to be like, oh, you mean fat? You mean she has fat on her body? And make them sit in that, but I didn't. I froze because I was at a family farm. I was not trying to cause a commotion, but I'm feeling some feelings around it.
01:15:50 Rachel
Well, I think it's funny because, not funny funny, but like ironic funny, babies get complimented for being fat and then at some point there's a switch.
01:16:00 Alyssa
It's healthy.
01:16:01 Rachel
Right. And--
01:16:02 Alyssa
Healthy is the word people keep using.
01:16:04 Rachel
I think that even calling a fat baby healthy or a chubby baby healthy or whatever, it's still reinforcing this idea that you only get to exist in a certain size.
01:16:18 Alyssa
Or just stop talking about her body.
01:16:20 Rachel
Right. Yeah, it's the commenting on the body. It happens a lot with small children. Part of me is like, it's because I think people don't know how to authentically connect with a baby or small child a lot. And so they default to like, oh, you're so cute, or you're so pretty, or you're so chubby and healthy. And it's like, there's so much more to this kid than their size or their appearance. So yeah, that makes sense that you're getting triggered by that.
01:16:51 Alyssa
Yeah. I'm like, let me give you some other adjectives here, my friend.
01:16:54 Rachel
Right. Yeah.
01:16:55 Alyssa
I'd love to tell you more about her. Leave her alone.
01:16:59 Rachel
It's also like dehumanizing, I think. We don't see babies as like full people.
01:17:03 Alyssa
Correct.
01:17:03 Rachel
Just like, oh, you're fat and healthy, yay, moving on. You know, and it's like, she's chatty, she's outgoing, she's social.
01:17:11 Alyssa
Also, what if her body continues to be in this build? At what point are you gonna be like, wow, she's so healthy? At what point is that gonna shift?
01:17:19 Rachel
Yeah, so at soccer practice, I was standing next to another parent who noticed one of the students had like gotten taller, thinned out, whatever. and said something and this person is a dad and I said it's not appropriate to comment on children's bodies in general but you need to especially be careful talking about or around young girls about their size and encouraging them or praising their smallness. So that was awkward, but -
01:18:04 Alyssa
Good for you, way to be an advocate.
01:18:06 Rachel
Like it's so wild how normalized it is for adults to stand on the sideline and just like talk about kids' bodies. Like, no.
01:18:16 Alyssa
Isn't that nuts? Yeah, nuts.
01:18:19 Rachel
Hate it.
01:18:21 Alyssa
Hate it, hate it. But it's what we do with other people's bodies too.
01:18:26 Rachel
Oh, I know.
01:18:26 Alyssa
Adult bodies too.
01:18:26 Rachel
Oh, she looks so good. She's lost weight. She looks so good.
01:18:33 Alyssa
Yeah. I hate it. My poor neighbor is 17 weeks pregnant and just got back from like a visit with extended family where she was like, I went into this visit being like, oh my gosh, I look so cute. I have this new like bump, you know, it's her first baby. And she's like, and then everyone kept being like, are you sure it's not twins? Like you're only 17 weeks. She She was like, and now I came home and I'm like, oh my God, I'm too huge. Like I have, and I was like, nope, you're not. You are not. You are growing a baby in your body and there's not one right way for that to look. You are beautiful. Your body's slaying. What are you doing people? What are you gonna do? What is she gonna do? Control the size of her bump?
01:19:18 Rachel
Also the, again, how normal it is to talk about pregnant people's bodies and their size and how they're carrying, and it's just like, it's none of your concern how someone's growing a kid.
01:19:34 Alyssa
Are you about to talk about my body? Just stop, just pause.
01:19:37 Rachel
Yeah, like just -
01:19:38 Alyssa
Whatever you were about to say, don't.
01:19:39 Rachel
Don't.
01:19:40 Alyssa
That's the only rule. Period, end of story.
01:19:45 Rachel
My friend used to say that like the only, she was pregnant, she's like, the only thing anybody should be doing right now is feeding me and telling me I'm pretty.
01:19:57 Alyssa
Legit. And rubbing my feet maybe.
01:19:57 Rachel
Yeah, like, it's honestly wild how we just think that it's normal and acceptable to be like, oh, wow, she's carrying in her back.
01:20:14 Alyssa
Oh, yeah, people need to just talk less.
01:20:18 Rachel
Somebody said that to me when I was pregnant with Nora.
01:20:20 Alyssa
No.
01:20:21 Rachel
Yeah, which like I did have a lot of back fat with Nora. I gained a lot of weight with her.
01:20:26 Alyssa
Carrying in your back, Rach!
01:20:27 Rachel
Yes, I know. So so and I was already so insecure in my pregnancy with her because I have had an eating disorder and I was large and in charge. And I--
01:20:38 Alyssa
She also was like 49 weeks.
01:20:41 Rachel
Totally. She didn't come until 42 and three. She was a good size babe. I may have had cancer brewing at that point. Like my inflammation was high, whatever. Anyway, yes. And then the same person like gave me crap when I was pregnant with Abel and was like, are you sure you've gained enough weight? Like you're hearing really small. Look.
01:21:00 Alyssa
What size would you like me to be? What are you hoping I'll look like?
01:21:03 Rachel
The take home message is you can't win when it comes to other people accepting your body.
01:21:09 Alyssa
It's so true. Also just reminded, we've been playing this game in our household a lot where one of the, when my three -year -old is very dysregulated, whichever adult he is lashing out at at the moment goes, let's play a game of You Can't Win!
01:21:30 Rachel
Well, and you can't win with a preschooler who's overtired or overstimulated. Nobody wins.
01:21:36 Alyssa
He does not appreciate that. I wouldn't call that emotionally supportive parenting, but it does keep us as the adults trucking.
01:21:44 Rachel
Yeah.
01:21:45 Alyssa
Keeps us moving.
01:21:45 Rachel
Yeah, sometimes you need a little humor or sarcasm just to get you over the hump. One thing that I'll do when the kids are really losing it, I'll just look at Cody and sing, 'lovely day, lovely day'. And they also hate that, but it's just like, I'm just trying to keep myself going without losing it on you guys.
01:22:09 Alyssa
Yeah, correct. This is so much better than me losing my ever -loving ass on ya.
01:22:12 Rachel
This is a coping mechanism, and I'm gonna go ahead and use it so that I don't lose it on you, okay?
01:22:17 Alyssa
Use it or lose it, love it.
01:22:21 Rachel
Oh man, yeah.
01:22:24 Alyssa
Any other final thoughts on Colleen?
01:22:28 Rachel
No, other than I'm gonna follow her on Instagram.
01:22:30 Alyssa
Yeah, solid follow, 10 out of 10 would recommend.
01:22:34 Rachel
Great, done.
01:22:36 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
Connect with Dr. Colleen Reichmann:
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Website: www.wildflowertherapyllc.com
Order the book: The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery: Advice from Two Therapists Who Have Been There
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