Setting the Stage for Shame-Free Puberty with Melissa Pintor Carnagey

adolescence communication puberty relationship tweens May 01, 2025

Before we dive in: this episode includes a discussion of sexual assault. Please take care while listening.

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I got to hang out with my friend Melissa Pintor Carnagey. Melissa's newest book Growing Into You is so phenomenal. Melissa's a renowned sexuality educator, bestselling author, and leading national voice for sex positive education in youth and families.

[00:00:22] Her work has been featured in the Huffington Post Parents magazine, CNN, New York Times, ever heard of it? Buzzfeed and reaches thousands of families around the globe via an engaged social media following and monthly live workshops through their growing into you virtual puberty education programming.

[00:00:39] Growing Into You is a book that is currently just like living in my house because I feel like, and you'll hear it in this interview, I just have so much learning to do in this space. It's something I did not grow up with. It's something that often feels uncomfortable for me. I find myself often having more questions and I feel like answers where like I don't know how to respond to this thing that my child just said and I need resources and support on it.

[00:01:07] And Melissa is my very first place I turn for that and has been for such a long time. I followed them on Instagram for years and it was so nice to get to sit down and ask these questions and dive into this with them. I'm super excited to share this episode on setting the stage for Shame-Free Puberty with Melissa.

[00:01:30] All right, folks, let's dive in.

[00:01:36] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:01:53] Let's dive in together.

[00:01:58] Alyssa: Home is Texas, is that right?

[00:02:00] Melissa: It is Austin, Texas. Keep, keep me in all your good thoughts.

[00:02:04] Alyssa: Yeah. How are things going over there in Austin, Texas for you?

[00:02:11] Melissa: Yeah. I mean, Austin is often seen as like this little island, you know? Yeah. Amidst. Texas, Texas. And so, uh, you know, I've been here since I was nine and I will be 45 in just a few months.

[00:02:25] And so, uh, basically my whole life. And so I've watched this city transform over that, you know, time. And, uh, it has been a, a great place to raise a family. Uh, I don't, it's, it's not that I think I need to be somewhere else, per se, uh, but it's just so much that has changed and continues to change. Mm-hmm.

[00:02:49] And then there's just, yeah, the political landscape is, is not in alignment with my, I mean, listen, if, if you're in alignment with it, then it's great. Totally. But, you know, and certainly with the, I, all the identities that I hold, you know, it's, it's just not always, uh, a safe, affirming place to be in terms of Texas as a whole and Austin.

[00:03:11] You know, Austin, Austin has, has, has worked out ultimately. Um, but my husband and I, we are dreaming of a future in Costa Rica. Ooh. We're dreaming of, of a future. So, because, you know, we're getting, getting closer to empty nesting. Um,

[00:03:27] Alyssa: yeah. How close are you to empty nesters?

[00:03:30] Melissa: It's still a few years. Uh, we've got a 15-year-old, he'll be 16 in December.

[00:03:34] Um, my oldest will be 26 tomorrow, so I already have an adult young person. Yes. And then, uh, then I have a bonus son who's 11. So Really it's, oh, it's, it's well year. You had a bonus son. Yeah. So once our youngest, you know

[00:03:48] Alyssa: Yeah.

[00:03:48] Melissa: Crosses that kind of, you know, finish line. Sure. And for sure. But, uh, but yeah, we we're, we're traveling.

[00:03:55] We're getting out there and Sweet.

[00:03:57] Alyssa: Yeah. And is your oldest still working with you at Sex Positive Families?

[00:04:01] Melissa: Yeah, so she, her primary work, she's a registered nurse, so she works in postpartum care. Yeah. So she's done labor and delivery and postpartum work. So she's out here. Um, and she also has her own business.

[00:04:15] Okay. She, uh, tutors, uh, nursing students for the NCLEX because Get it, she was valedictorian of her nursing class. And, uh, she loves mentoring, teaching, speak. Um, and she also teaches, uh, what is it like, uh, the classes for the, the new parents. So she does that through the hospital. Uhhuh? Well, she's just like prenatal classes.

[00:04:36] Prenatal, like birth classes and stuff. Yeah. Prenatal. Yeah. She's doing the most. And then she also co-facilitate with us at Sex Positive Families, uh, when her schedule allows, so, okay.

[00:04:46] Alyssa: Incredible. She's incredible. Yeah, she's incredible.

[00:04:49] Melissa: Yeah.

[00:04:49] Alyssa: Yeah. Rad. Well, you were doing the workshops growing into you.

[00:04:55] Mm-hmm. And I'm excited to learn, like from the workshops into the book, like did so from my journey and in Tiny Humans, big Emotions was the title of my workshops. I always did. And then the title of my online workshop and then the title of my first book. And it was really for me, just like I learned so much in presenting to thousands of families over the years and got to really harness that into the most comprehensive place to find all that is now the book.

[00:05:26] And I'm wondering what that journey was for you? Like how do the workshops differ from the book and what can we find? Where can you share kind of about that?

[00:05:35] Melissa: Yeah, it sounds like our journeys are, were quite similar. Um, growing into, you was Born truly from a DM that I had received from a parent who followed our work at Sex Positive Families, um, back in 2018, which at that time, sex Positive Families was only like a year and a half old.

[00:05:53] Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:54] Melissa: And they were following our work on social media. And they reached out, they were local to Austin, and they said, you know, Hey, do you happen to do like puberty workshops by chance? We've, we've got a Girl Scout troop that really could use that. I'm loving your work and the way that you do your work.

[00:06:11] And I said, sure. Because at that time I was also teaching sex ed across three different charter schools, uh, through, uh, another program. I was, I had a part-time gig with a nonprofit and I was teaching an inclusive, comprehensive sex ed program at the time. And so, uh, I said, sure, I can absolutely design a puberty education class.

[00:06:33] Uh, I said, there's just some conditions if you're okay with them. And one of them was that it has to be family style, uh, meaning that. It they that I have to be teaching both the young person and the adult, ah, in their trusted adult in the same space. Because at that point I had seen through both of the work that I was doing, what it's like when you teach just a young person sex education and when you teach just adults as the parents, right?

[00:06:59] Yeah. There creates these silos and these gaps and it, it still puts the pressure for them to have to come together in their own time and break those barriers. Awkward. Those taboos, the awkwardness, right. And so I, you know, said as long as we can teach families in, in a shared space together so that in real time they can get this information and then they can apply it and they can see just how powerful that is.

[00:07:26] Um, and she was like, I. Yes. And then I said the other condition was gender inclusive. So meaning that we were gonna teach no matter who the audience was and what body parts they had or what identities they held, we were gonna teach about all bodies, all experiences with puberty and growing up. Um, and they were like, that sounds great.

[00:07:45] So that's where growing into U was born. I created the workshop, implemented the workshop. They loved it so much that they invited me back a few months later, uh, to do that with their Boy Scout troops. So we literally did the same exact workshop we were teaching about menstruation, periods, erections, teaching about all the many things, uh, that happened during puberty for all bodies and identities.

[00:08:09] And, uh, that was another hit, uh, then. March, 2020 happened, the pandemic. Uh, and at that point, uh, families, many families were at home and they, uh, a lot of the sex ed programming and puberty programming across districts was being canceled.

[00:08:28] Alyssa: Sure.

[00:08:28] Melissa: Uh, because of limited resources. So I had families then reaching out to us saying, Hey, do you offer anything, you know, to, to supplement this?

[00:08:37] And I was like, well, I have this workshop that I created, you know? Yeah. That I thought I was gonna be delivering in person. 'cause it was so fun. Um. But I was like, well, I can transition in into a virtual experience. And that's, that's literally where it was born. And so, uh, that month of March, 2020, I provided four sessions across that month, uh, up to 60 families I had in some of those sessions.

[00:09:02] Again, families were just so hungry. Yeah. And so available for it. Uh, and so since March, 2020, we have not stopped. We've been providing growing into you and it's now expanded from, uh, just a puberty workshop. Now it's grown into a media and porn literacy workshop and a sex and reproduction workshop is, which is our newest, and those.

[00:09:23] Came from the parents in the community that have taken the workshops and they said, can you do something about, about porn? Yeah. You know, it's with those, those topics that families are finding most challenging. Uh, but more, but very important to broach. Uh, but doing it in an interactive, fun, engaging, um, lower stakes way.

[00:09:43] And so that's, that's where growing Into was born. And then Yes, now, now it's a book.

[00:09:48] Alyssa: It's incredible. There are so many similarities to our journeys. It's so fun. That's so cool. We, I had only been doing in-person Tiny Human Speak emotions, workshops, and then the pandemic hit and we had just started to shift it actually, right before the pandemic hit, I was like, I wanna bring this to more people.

[00:10:05] I have, I'm from a low income community in Western New York and grew up in a space where it's so under-resourced. You're not gonna have community workshops happening like this. And I wanted. It to be available for the My moms of the world to be able to access who had been a stay at home parent with just such limited access to outside resources.

[00:10:30] And so we had started that process and then March of 2020 hit and it just accelerated it. And similarly, it was just like brought it online, people were hungry for it. And then after Tiny Humans published, we kept hearing the like, okay, where is this for like the big kids? And we're like, okay. And so that then evolved into now big kids, bigger feelings.

[00:10:50] But I love the, what I hear and like our journeys and what I think I was so drawn to with your work and with you as a human from the beginning is the like responsiveness you are creating for an impact and just responding to community needs. And I have such respect for that. Thank you for doing this. I grew up in a household where, thank you.

[00:11:15] Nobody parts outside of like elbow, arm, nose, eyes were talked about. And I mean, Kate Entzel taught me how to use a tampon for the first time and about my period, thank you Kate and Bless and I like didn't have any of this growing up and so your account was my first follow for me, even just personally to learn like, where do I go with this?

[00:11:41] How do I talk to kids about their bodies in a way that was never modeled for me? And I've, gosh, over the years, just learned so much from you and I'm so, so grateful.

[00:11:54] Melissa: Thank you for that. And, and I wanna reflect that back to you. I mean, your account, like we, I feel like we've kind of been growing together, you know?

[00:12:03] Mm-hmm. And building together through the, the work that we get to do and the families that we get to serve. Um, and I do feel really connected. I, I have felt really connected to how you, how you serve and, and, and again, that it is a, a place of service and that it isn't about being like a guru or, you know, the end all be all.

[00:12:23] It's just, it's an offering and it's, and it's just to, you know, again, meeting the need. Um, and I. Can absolutely relate to what you're sharing personally. Uh, this work for, for me was inspired by my own lived experience of not having grown up in a home where these conversations were open, were, uh, happening.

[00:12:46] Uh, and so I was looking, you know, at it, I know that if I had had a cell phone Oh, yeah. And, and porn on the cell phone, like all of you know, it was HBO real sex. Okay. Yeah. You know, that that was, that was the equivalent is I was totally, you know, sneaking around and trying to find, or the Encyclopedia Britannica Yeah.

[00:13:07] That was in our house, you know. Uh, so I was a curious young person as young people tend to be beautifully, wonderfully, right. Uh, but it wasn't allowed, um. But, you know, our parents were of a generation who, again, it just, that it just keeps going, right? And so at some point we have to do something different to get a different result.

[00:13:28] And that's essentially what my entrance into parenting became, as so many of ours is, is like, I don't think, I don't think this is working. I, I think, you know, me becoming a parent, I, I learned, I was pregnant at 17. I had just graduated high school. I was, you know, set to go off to college. I learned I was pregnant.

[00:13:49] I entered parenting with this real sense that I wanna do this differently. I feel like if I had had information support, uh, context, you know, as I was trying to navigate my body, relationships, consent, all of these things that I could have maybe had some different outcomes. And so that's, that's what my parenting journey has been like.

[00:14:14] And then that eventually inspired the work that I get to do.

[00:14:18] Alyssa: I Gosh, just like so much Yes. Of like wild how some of us come to it and we're like, oh yeah, no, I'm just trying to do really for my younger self, what I don't have. Uh, so many of us I think, come into this space, especially in the world of sex ed.

[00:14:33] So I'm currently raising Sage and Mila and two very different humans in this world. And it's such an honor and a gift and in our household right now, which literally thanks to you, we talk about all body parts and just recently, uh, someone from generation above me was at our house and was like, why does Sage need to know about your period?

[00:14:58] Like, come on. Does he need to know? And. So can you break this down for us of like, when you're doing these workshops, just as you said from the Girl Scouts to the Boy Scouts, that workshop didn't change. Can you explain why?

[00:15:11] Melissa: Mm. Uh, first of all, I wanna say, ah, I love hearing that this is happening in your home.

[00:15:18] Um, and, uh, I have, I have a sage who's now 15. Yeah. And he knows more about periods menstruation, uh, at 15 than I really knew in my twenties, you know? Yeah. Same. And he's four. It's like, and you see it, right? You really get to see it in real time. I mean, they're blank slates, if you will, for lack of another word.

[00:15:46] Mm-hmm. Like, they're just receiving and, and, and it's connection. It's connection. Mm-hmm. Is what they're seeing, you know, as they're walking into the bathroom or they're fiddling through, you know, period products or whatever's just around, there's none of that is. Innate this shame. The shame is not innate.

[00:16:03] There's no shame for him.

[00:16:04] Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:05] Melissa: It's literally just, oh, hanging out with mom, with parent. Right. And so, uh, it, it's, um, now my son, you know, being 15, he's just able to, I'll say one thing that I very much appreciate is the care and the empathy that he has for menstruating people. And it just happens in, in our own home.

[00:16:29] Just when I'm menstruating, I'm very just open, you know about that fact because, you know, as we know hormonally, there are shifts. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, but it isn't about shaming those shifts or making fun of those shifts. It's just this is a shift that's happening. Here's the physiological, the biological reason why, and here's what I need right now.

[00:16:51] Right. But now it's just me with the uterus and. Of us, you know, um, are in a space of just how can we care for each other, how can we, you know, show up for each other. And none of it is inhibited by, uh, constructed gender, you know, binaries or, you know, stereotypes. Um, so yeah, he's able to just be a caring human to me, and I absolutely hope as he enters into his own adulthood and, you know, he's, he's dating, he's starting dating and stuff, so we get to have, you know, just open conversations and there's not taboo or, or, or real awkwardness around the things that.

[00:17:38] Bodies naturally do, and that are powerful and incredible and amazing. And then, you know, with the political climate, everything that's going on, just the conversations that we get to have, uh, he has an incredible critical lens, one that he's actually putting to use. He, uh, is, uh, winning competitions. He's a part of the Texas Association of Future Educators, and he will be competing in nationals in the summer.

[00:18:04] He'll be going to Orlando, Florida, representing his school. He does public speaking around ethical dilemmas in education. And they, they cool. Just give him a topic and he's able to speak on it, you know, uh, and I, and I do absolutely believe that it's because of these conversations. This openness, this, uh, you know, willingness to not have things lingering as taboo over these years since he was very small, that have allowed him to have his own voice, have his own opinion, and also respect and show up for and affirm those that may be different.

[00:18:41] You know, those opinions, those thoughts, those experiences that may be different than his.

[00:18:45] Alyssa: I love this so much. So when we're looking at it in terms of why does sage need to know about periods, why would someone who doesn't have uterus need to know about periods? What I'm hearing from you is like, it allows us to all be in community to together.

[00:19:00] Yes. To have that empathy, to have that compassion, to have that understanding and to ultimately reduce shame that I, I mean so many of us as adults still like hide a tampon as we're walking through the bathroom and like, why are we still doing this? And, and I'm in this group where I find myself like, I'm gonna like grab it out of my purse and like, like what am I doing?

[00:19:19] Like yeah, I have my period, I've changed my on and. That is something that for Sage is already so foreign. He recently asked, he, he connected that Mila has a uterus. I have uterus. We've talked, he knows she has a vulva. I have vulva. And so he was like, Mila has her period. And I was like, no. And then was like waited.

[00:19:42] I was like, I need more information on how to talk about this part for him, but like waded through it and then ultimately was like at some point, yeah, she will. And he was like, and then I'll get her a tampon. And I was like, yeah, she might also use a cup. She might. And then we talked about like different options for periods.

[00:19:59] Look at you. You're

[00:20:00] Melissa: already have, you're already talking about puberty. Yeah. And that's, and that's amazing, right? Because you, I love that because that's such a beautiful example of how we just show up, just be present, just follow their curiosities and you know, it's not about having to do a PowerPoint presentation.

[00:20:17] Right. You know, or like one big conversation. Exactly. Like it's all of these seeds that you're planting and that you're sowing, that you're getting a chance. You know, over time. And, and, and how much less intimidating is that ultimately Totally. For you as, as a parent, uh, to, to know that, oh wait, I've got all of these years to do this.

[00:20:39] I don't, it's not just one thing that has to have this like long, intimidating buildup, uh, toward Totally. And, and then the eye rolls that are talked about in our culture a lot with, with young people. Again, I can, I can say having raised young people through all the stages and now teenager and then I have a tween, we don't get eye rolls in this home a lot.

[00:21:01] And that's, 'cause again, there's, there's, there's been from day one, just this, this sense of respect, mutual care and community in our own home and respect and equity, uh, yeah. Without those power dynamics that a lot of us grew up with, you know? Totally. And then just this understanding that, you know, this knowledge, this is information and, um.

[00:21:25] And it all has, you know, it all, it all has power and a place. And so when we just give them that context, uh, then they're able to make informed choices about how to use language and how they show up with other people.

[00:21:38] Alyssa: It still is uncomfortable for me almost a hundred percent of the time when a conversation comes up.

[00:21:43] 'cause I'm like, it's so, it's, there was no model for me on this. Yeah, right. Like literally can't stress how no model was. It was created other than like, we just don't talk about anything. And I have four brothers, so I didn't have anyone else who was menstruating in the house outside my mom, who was definitely not comfortable to talk about this.

[00:22:00] Right. Yeah. Calm again. Enter, enter Kate Entzel. Thank you Kate. And when it comes up for me in the moment and I like notice the dysregulation and the like fear and like what do I do next? My internal mantra has just been, it's only weird if you make it weird's. Only weird if you make it weird. Like that keeps me going where I'm like, this isn't weird for him right now.

[00:22:19] Like this would've been weird for me as a kid because of all the layers that were stacked on top of that, that came before I entered into any discussions around period or my body. It was weird for me because 4-year-old me was not given the opportunity to be curious and to ask questions. They were just shut down and shamed and pushed away.

[00:22:40] And so for him, it's currently not weird. Right? Yeah. And that reminder to myself of like. This feels weird or uncomfortable for you, Alyssa, because it was made to be that way and it doesn't have to be that way for him. Keeps me going. We um, in January, Zach had a vasectomy and Sage was like planning. We had friends coming over, it was happening on a Friday.

[00:23:05] We had friends coming over for sleepover on Saturday who were like sleepover at our house a bunch. We're really close with them and he was like planning out things he wanted to do with them over the weekend. And Zach is like off and the like on the ground, fun parent playing these games and he was saying all the things he wanted to do and I was like, actually this weekend dad might have to rest a little bit.

[00:23:26] He's having an operation and he might have to rest. And he was like, what's his operation? I said, it's an operation on his scrotum because we don't wanna have more babies in our house. And he like paused and he was like. Wait, does dad have a uterus? And I was like, it's great. Follow up together. My God.

[00:23:44] He's like, my God, babies are grown in a uterus. Why is dad having an operation on his scrotum when babies are grown in a uterus? And I was like, oh my gosh, how cool for you? I wouldn't have connected those dots until so much later in life. And then we got to have a conversation pretty quickly and easily about sperm and eggs and coming together and making babies.

[00:24:05] And he like satisfied all of his answers. And he was like, okay, great. Ugh. Done.

[00:24:11] Melissa: Oh, you're making my heart so happy. Like imagine a world where, right. Imagine a world where young people, world, you're creating,

[00:24:17] Alyssa: Melissa, you have influenced, that conversation doesn't happen to my household without you, so thank you.

[00:24:22] Are you trying to make me cry? It's just real. I've learned so much from you in that like, it doesn't have to be weird, right? That I don't have to make up a reason why dad can't play, and I can say the word vasectomy to him. He did go to school the next day in childcare and tell his teacher, because they have to

[00:24:42] Melissa: share the good news, the information.

[00:24:45] He, he's a peer educator in training. Okay.

[00:24:49] Alyssa: Except he like missed the Mark A. Little bit. He, I go to pick him up and she was like. Is Zach having a vasectomy? And I was like, he is, did you hear about it? And she was like, kinda, Sage told me that Zach has an infection in his scrotum, so he is having an operation so you don't have more babies.

[00:25:03] And I was like, oh my gosh.

[00:25:05] Melissa: Hilarious. Whoa. He got part of this. Oh, I just wanna name that. You know, that example of then going and sharing and being a peer educator, that's the part that a lot of parents just greatly fear, right? Is on, oh my gosh, if I talk about these things, then they're gonna go tell other people and either they're gonna get in trouble, we are as a family, gonna get in trouble or it's gonna cause, you know, disruption or Right.

[00:25:32] Um, and so, gosh, there's so much I, I love that he feels so safe to be curious. Mm-hmm. And to ask like. What a confidence boost, what a confident young person you are fostering, uh, and, and how much that's such a, such a safety mechanism as well. Right? For him to recognize that he has a voice and that he, he knows some things too.

[00:25:57] You know, it's, it, there's so much there that is just so beautiful that you are fostering that. Um. Is really we need more of in the world. Um, okay. Because again, like I, like I say, it's obvious that we have a lot of people in decision making positions right now. Sure. And in positions of power and authority who clearly never had sex education,

[00:26:21] Alyssa: they

[00:26:21] Melissa: never

[00:26:21] Alyssa: Well, and who are just like living from a place of fear, right?

[00:26:24] Mm-hmm. And like, that's what I feel like you're shifting culturally, is really taking that fear out of it. That I don't have to be scared about talking to my child about my period or putting my tampon in, or I don't have to be scared about what is he gonna say at school? That there doesn't have to be fear and shame around this.

[00:26:46] We've created those narratives that there have to be fear and shame around this, but that's not inherently true. Right? We aren't born with fear and shame around it. It's conditioned. Right. Can you

[00:26:55] Melissa: speak

[00:26:56] Alyssa: a little bit to that of like, where's that condition come from?

[00:26:58] Melissa: I wanna, yeah. Oh, I wanna name and as they get older, so.

[00:27:03] Tyson my 15-year-old. So as your young people get older and these conversations keep evolving, then absolutely you can start introducing the con the context for them as to, well, why, why is this so taboo? Because they'll, they'll start to notice that, um, especially if they're growing up like we are in an environment where, uh, many of their friends are not having these conversations or not growing up in the same kind of household.

[00:27:28] And, and they'll be curious as to why, or they start to notice, you know, news or the politics around. Um, and so then, you know, for me it's helping them understand that there are systems and people who benefit from, right. Unfortunately, there are folks that benefit from the shame, from the taboo, from the silence.

[00:27:50] Uh, there's a lot of money that's being made off of, uh, sexual shame. Break that down

[00:27:55] Alyssa: for us. Can, can you gimme some examples of like, how does, where's the money flow? How does that play out?

[00:28:00] Melissa: Well, we see it of course, in like beauty industry, the sexualization of bodies. Mm-hmm. And, and then that helps with conversations when we talk about porn.

[00:28:10] And because our young people have so much ready access to it. And even if you're not giving them the cell phone or the device, chances are they are friends with, they're sitting on the bus with, they're cousins with, okay. And so we have to be having these conversations. But when you've primed their understanding, and as you are able to have these open conversations, they can see that porn, especially free online porn, that that is most accessible, uh, to young people is not a safe or reliable place to be educated about sex.

[00:28:41] Mm-hmm. And there's a lot of money being made, um, and a lot of the content is not. Consensually or ethically created. And so if you are going to, if you end up participating in that by way of consuming that content, then you are contributing to, um, a, a toxic, unethical, you know, uh, system. And so you, you help to develop a, a citizen, like someone who can make informed choices about where they place their own time and energy and attention and dollars ultimately.

[00:29:13] So yeah, there's, I mean, unfortunately there's so many, uh, ways that we can be manipulated, you know, through consumerism and capitalism and that, that that shame and these taboos keep us seeking out answers, you know, to fill those gaps, so,

[00:29:31] Alyssa: sure, sure. Well, and uh, I'm gonna share a sexual assault story right now.

[00:29:36] Okay. But when I was 14, I was raped. And I was raped by like. A star athlete, like football player, whatever. And I have three older brothers who were all like popular and in the, in crowd, and I was their little sister, right? So I was like, this prize possession. And I, unpopular opinion years later was sharing this in a, in a group and said, I, I actually am not, I'm not mad at the person who raped me.

[00:30:04] I don't hold a whole lot against him. He's a product of the culture in which he was raised. And he was raised in a very like patriarchal male dominant culture where he was led to believe that there was power and control and worth and love and value in holding this power. And that for me has been, it was a huge part of leading me into the work that I do now.

[00:30:35] And then

[00:30:35] when I had, when I birthed a little white boy, I was like, this comes with so much responsibility of who do I want him to be down the road? What do I want him to think or feel or experience when he looks at other humans? And I don't want that to come from a place of power in control. I want him to see other humans as humans.

[00:31:00] And part of that comes from des shaming things like puberty and sex and being able to openly talk about bodies so that there is no, uh, shame or ownership over. And that, for me feels like one of the greatest responsibilities I get to hold as a parent to this little white boy. Oof.

[00:31:21] Melissa: You said so much first.

[00:31:22] Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. Uh, your experience and, and that yeah. In itself is so powerful because it is a lot of people's experience and it doesn't toot get spoken about enough and the way that you broke down ultimately, that. These things, um, again, are not innate. Uh, they are manufactured, they're created.

[00:31:46] They are enabled. Um, mm-hmm. Have you seen the show Adolescents on Netflix?

[00:31:51] Alyssa: No, I haven't yet. I'm so bad at being current on shows. As a parent of two young kids, I just fall asleep. Uh, no shame there, but I'm sure there, there will be a season in which I can watch something and not fall asleep.

[00:32:03] Melissa: Yeah, no, don't, don't ask me too many per specific questions about the first.

[00:32:07] Five years of each of my young people's lives. Okay. I'm just getting out of the fog. And they're like, yeah, yeah. In their teens now. Uh, so I get it. Um, uh, it is a, it is a very hot topic right now. Definitely. Um, in talking about, uh, the, the tween and teen years. Yeah. Um, highly, highly recommend when you have space.

[00:32:28] Uh, or even if you just look up, you know, look it up, adolescents, Netflix, now there's so many articles and content being created. I'll be creating some, um, cool. Soon. Uh, but that show speaks to the thread that you just articulated so well. Um, and in, in, in the perspective of it's a four-part series and, uh, in the, from the perspective of a 13-year-old boy Yeah.

[00:32:54] And his family. And, um, and, uh, yeah. I won't, I won't, I won't spoil any of it, but absolutely. We, you know, we need to be having more conversations. Uh, we need to ensure that our young boys are getting the connection and the, um. The sense that they, uh, that they, that their feelings matter. Yeah. And that they know how to express their feelings and that they can develop that sense of empathy and, um, connectedness with girls, with people that don't have the same bodies and identities as they do.

[00:33:39] Especially like you said, white boys. You know, again, the toxic masculinity. A lot of the messaging that's out there content, when they get into those tweener teen years now, there's a lot that's being influenced, uh, yeah. And in that direction of toxicity. And so it is, it's a, it can, it absolutely can feel like a lot of responsibility on us as parents, as caregivers.

[00:34:03] Um, but we really can take a community approach to that and just knowing that it isn't just one conversation, uh, and. That can help take that pressure off of feeling like you have to say just the right thing.

[00:34:18] Alyssa: Yeah. You know,

[00:34:19] Melissa: it's, and it, because it's not, it's not about following a script. Um, it's really just about being present, showing up, finding those many everyday moments where you can connect and you're building that into your relationship.

[00:34:29] And yes, the earlier you start, the more normalized it is, the less awkward or weird it might seem. Um, and it's not too late. Mm-hmm. Never too early or too late. Exactly. You know, as humans, we are wired for belonging, um, and connection. And so our young people will follow our lead and, um, so yeah. And it, it can feel really challenging because our world.

[00:34:54] Adult wise can get really busy, really hectic lot, you know, stress. We're trying to keep so many things going. Um, so finding those opportunities where we can, you know, just meet our young people one-on-one as humans, you know? Um, yeah.

[00:35:11] Alyssa: So when we're looking at your newest book here, growing Into You, can you kind of break down what are the topics that are covered?

[00:35:16] What age range is this for and is it like the family style education where you're meant to consume it together, kind of reading it with your child? How does it work? What can people expect from it?

[00:35:27] Melissa: Yeah, so this is for 10 to 14 year olds, and so it's that tween, young teen age range. Uh, and the education is, so, puberty is the umbrella here, so it's that adolescence, but that there's so many things under that umbrella related to your body, the anatomy, right?

[00:35:47] How your body changes, what you can expect, uh, and also your mind, your emotions. Feelings, um, how to take care of your body. So all of those hygiene things that a lot of times parents are really excited, you know, for puberty education to cover. Right. Um, and the interactive nature of the book, which is one thing that makes our book unique is that after every section it offers, uh, three parts.

[00:36:14] Let's, uh, let's write about it. Which allows them to, uh, gives them prompts for how they can spend some time thinking about how these, this particular section, you know, relates to their world and their experience growing up. Let's talk about it. So giving conversation starters that they can take into conversations, whether it's with their parent, uh, their, their trusted adult, um, or a friend, someone that they trust.

[00:36:39] And then let's have fun with it. And so then that's where there are activities that they can take into their real world, you know, and either they're watching something that relates to this, um, or they're doing something, you know, kinesthetically. Uh, that's the interactive nature of the book in the way that, uh, absolutely parents, caregivers, families, even educators, can use this resource as something to do with their young person.

[00:37:04] It's also designed though, for the 10 to 14-year-old that may not have access to a trusted adult may find this resource. In a library and it allows for that safe space as well for them to process these very human things that they may be experiencing.

[00:37:21] Alyssa: Are there resources you recommend for folks who are earlier to this party who are like, yeah, my kid is six or seven, or whatever.

[00:37:30] What resources do you recommend for those like early talks?

[00:37:34] Melissa: Yeah, so a Maze is this incredible, uh, resource that, uh, is by advocates for Youth. And they have videos that, uh, they started out with videos for tweens and teens, uh, to help them understand, uh, puberty bodies, sexual health related things. They're short, animated, fun, funny often, uh, and now they have a Maze Junior.

[00:37:59] So a maze, uh, dot org slash jr. And they have videos for the preschool toddler ages. These are videos that you can watch, uh, with your young person and they can spark conversations, uh, that set that foundation early. Uh, and there are so many books, so many books, especially these days that are being created, that are helping to create a foundation around bodies, consent, gender, um, different aspects of identities, different types of families where babies come from.

[00:38:32] Uh, all of these are great to integrate into your story time, your reading time. I always recommend this too for, for schools, um, or, uh, family programming that's out there. If you're having any kind of reading time, that's how you can, uh, just like you would with any other book on any other topic or fiction or anything like that.

[00:38:52] Uh, because as you've demonstrated so well with, with your stories, with your, within your own family, it just becomes a part of everyday life and everyday language. And the book also takes the pressure off of you as the adult feeling like you have to. Know all the right words or how to say it, and it gives you a reference point, often a, a nice visual, a reference point, uh, that.

[00:39:16] Will likely come up later in an everyday moment, and it'll say, remember when we read that in that book? Um, so there are so many, so many great books. Uh, and body safety education is super critical. Oh, yeah. At this age around consent. So yeah, those are, um, those are two areas that I think are, are critical.

[00:39:33] And I would also name that books that support parents along the process of exploring your own relationship to these topics. Mm-hmm. Uh, because as we've talked about, um, not everyone has a k Zel. E Exactly. And we're bringing so much of this Yeah. Into our parenting and caregiving and that those things can, can challenge us and make it, make it difficult to break through, you know, that silence and that taboo.

[00:40:03] Um, so lots of great books I've written One Sex Positive Talks to Have with Kids. So

[00:40:07] Alyssa: Good.

[00:40:08] Melissa: Thank you. It takes You From Birth through the teen years. Um, also great workshops from Parenting Safe Children. Uh, feather Auer has some really great workshops that, uh, especially if you're a survivor, um, of sexual trauma, really, uh, great because parenting can be triggering and so mm-hmm.

[00:40:25] Uh, it can be great to have supports to know you're not alone. And again, to know that it isn't, uh, something that has to happen all in one sitting.

[00:40:33] Alyssa: I think that for me was like the biggest, like thank goodness was like, it's not something that has to happen all in one sitting. It's all of these little moments that add up.

[00:40:44] It is him being in the bathroom when I change my tampon and just getting curious. You know, it's like these little things that compound where he now knows this is something he's allowed to ask questions about and talk about because we're open to that. And that for me has been so freeing of I don't have to have the right words or prepare the right language.

[00:41:09] It's gonna come up. A lot of this stuff's just gonna come up. And my job is really just to make sure we have an open, safe space to continue to share and to talk. And there are a bunch of times where I've gone back to things and been like, oh man, earlier, remember when you asked X, Y, and Z? Yeah, I learned something else.

[00:41:29] Do you wanna hear what I learned and share more? Uh, because I'll go back and like use your book as a reference and stuff where I'm like, okay, he asked this earlier. I like waited my way through it, but what's something else that I maybe missed or that I could add or whatever. And we get to do that. We get to continue.

[00:41:46] They give us plenty of opportunities for these conversations if we're open to them.

[00:41:51] Melissa: Absolutely.

[00:41:51] Alyssa: And do you know Curious Parenting? Uh, yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah. So they, uh, are good friends of ours and they lived with us for a month and we, at one point I was hanging out in the evening and Sage asked something.

[00:42:09] It may have been related to touching his penis where he wanted to touch his penis. We're hanging out in the living room. And I was like, this is not an appropriate place to touch your penis. And then he was like, well, why? And I like paused and I was like, how do I wanna answer this? And I called Clementine in and I was like, CLE, come out, this will say this question.

[00:42:28] I'm trying to figure out a best like word this. We pull your book out as like a reference. Like wait. But what was so rad was that I was like, you know what, Sage, hang on. I wanna think about why. And in the past I feel like I was like, I need to have an answer. Mm-hmm. I need to know right now. And have really waited into the, this feels like it's really important to me and I don't yet know why or what the answer is, but I'm going to dive more into it and tell you why.

[00:42:56] I will give you an answer I just don't know yet. And. That just for me has been so freeing of I don't have to have the right answers or have the right language all the time. I can just be honest about that, that this is something I feel strongly about or feels important, and I'm gonna come back to you on more information.

[00:43:18] Melissa: Yeah. And that, and that's so important that you're modeling that for him. Uh, that we as humans are, no one's gonna know it all. And if anyone ever claims to know it all or acts like they know it all that's turn around and walk away, it a red flag. Right? And so, uh, and especially as a young white male, right?

[00:43:35] Mm-hmm. You are, you are minimizing mansplaining just by doing that. Okay. And so, major kudos. Um, and, and you're, and again, you're, you're, you're showing your humanity as, as a parent, as a person, uh, that I don't know. That's a great question. I'm so glad you asked. Let me double check. Let me go see, or let's look, let's look and find out together.

[00:43:57] So, uh. We're always learning. And the moment that we stop, the moment that we think we've, we know it all and we've stopped. Um, that's, I think when, when true death, you know? Yeah. That's when that happens. And, and again, when we're not able to con, when we start to disconnect, you know, community wise. Um, so I, I love, I just love everything that you're, that you're doing and that you're modeling and you are giving credit to the fact that, again, it's, it's, it's been a process.

[00:44:26] It's been a process that there are resource, it's a process, resources. Yeah. Right. It's ongoing. Yep. And that there are resources that we can lean on when there are parts of this parenting path that we feel, um. More vulnerable around, less strong in. And whether it's a partner, someone that we're partnering with and parenting with, whether it's a resource that we're connected to, thanks to, you know, these internets, uh, we really, again, village as you say, right?

[00:44:53] Alyssa: Yeah.

[00:44:53] Melissa: It's so important. Um, and even just fostering that dynamic with our, with our own children, you know, so that we, 'cause especially as they keep getting older, we're gonna learn so much from them. Yeah. And especially in our highly digital world, which I don't think is gonna get any less digital as time keeps passing.

[00:45:12] Uh, there's so much that they know that they see, they hear, they pick up on. And if we have closed those doors and we have not made it safe for them to feel like they can come, come to us with brave conversations, with their questions, with their curiosities, um, then again, that's where we, we leave them on their own and we leave them vulnerable to.

[00:45:34] Unsafe situations, untrustworthy sources, and, uh, yeah. I, I just, I love everything that you're doing at home. Honestly,

[00:45:42] Alyssa: I've said a million times that I mean it like, thanks to you, you were the first like sex positive account I found and where I was like, oh, I have so much to learn here and I'm so grateful.

[00:45:55] I found you before I had kids and just got to soak it up for a while. And I read your first book before I even had kids. It was just like, this speaks so much to, it's what I needed as a kid, right? It's, it's the information that I didn't have access to. Mm-hmm. And the support that I didn't have access to.

[00:46:11] And you have been right in my home all along, whether you're in Texas or or not, you've been right here. And so thank you. Thanks for doing this work. I can't speak highly enough about it. Thank you. And, uh, appreciate also the inclusivity in your approach and how you speak about things. We live in a diverse gender community in our space.

[00:46:37] Mm-hmm. And nice. Uh, it is really helpful to be able to put language to things for my kids too. Um, yeah. And, and, and also help prepare them for the world outside of our little bubble that we get to live in. Yeah, yeah. Which absolutely I'm very aware of. Yeah. Like they have a delicious little bubble they get to live in right now that's aligned with our values in a lot of ways.

[00:47:01] And that's not true of the entire world they'll live in.

[00:47:05] Melissa: That's true. Yeah. I'll say, uh, something that came to my mind when you shared that was, uh, in our workshops we are teaching families, um. But we, we really are speaking to the adults and that, that younger version of that adult and by way of providing this education that so many of them never received, and just helping them build the confidence, uh, know where to the resources to turn to that are trustworthy, that are reliable, that are safe, uh, around these topics.

[00:47:42] So, uh, so yeah, I really am speaking to adults when I do my work. Uh, not just the young person.

[00:47:49] Alyssa: I feel that, I feel it in your work. Thank you, Melissa. It's been so nice to get to chat. Thank you. Stay tuned. After this note from our sponsors, Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:48:06] Okay. Last night I was just chatting this, that it was actually the first time in a little while where we've just like. Chatted, just the two of us, or the kids are down whatever with vacation. Mm-hmm. Craziness around it all. I was like, oh, I haven't just talked to you in a couple weeks and we are chatting and I was talking about how one of my biggest triggers is when people assume that I am stupid or weak.

[00:48:37] And he was like, yeah, okay, tell, tell me more. Like I asked him to come in and like help me with something and with like this, the headphones of this all whatever. And I was like, yeah, when I plug it into here I can't hear it. And he was like, oh yeah, here's the input. And he was like, lemme check the back.

[00:48:58] And he was like, yeah, the outputs are in the back. And I was like, oh, okay. That makes sense. And then. Like 30 seconds later, he went to explain to me what the input is and I was like, yep, nope. I understand what an input is. Thank you very much. Yep.

[00:49:09] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:10] Alyssa: And don't need to be mansplained here and mm-hmm. So we were having that, he was like, yeah, Alyssa, just if you could know that there's not a single moment that I'm talking to you where I'm explaining something.

[00:49:24] 'cause I think you're dumb. And I was like, okay. Yep. Fair, fair. That, thank you very much. Uh, but I've realized like this is, I, I think being a female business owner in my thirties where I, in like business groups and meetings and things, especially businesses of our size, I'm often the youngest CEO in the room.

[00:49:48] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:49] Alyssa: I am, unless I'm at a female entrepreneur thing only, I am often one of very few female business owners in the room.

[00:49:56] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:57] Alyssa: And I hear the like way that people talk to men in business. And then I experience the way that people talk to me in business and women, like there's a podcast, how I built this and I used to love it.

[00:50:13] It's all about like how you built that company.

[00:50:15] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:16] Alyssa: And he interviews, his name is Guy Raz. He interviews different CEOs and it's like CEO of Patagonia, whatever. Like you get to hear like, how did this company get built? Mm-hmm. How did it grow and sell and all that. Like the company's journey. And I started to notice this pattern of when he's interviewing women, he'll ask questions like, why do you think they gave you money?

[00:50:40] Or like, why do you think they like kind of trusted you with it? And he's trying to ask it in a way of like what I perceive to be like a business focused like, but I realize he's not asking men those questions. Mm-hmm. And. That was a little while ago. Then I realized that and I was like, I'm done with you.

[00:50:58] And then I wrote a, a letter and an email

[00:51:02] Rachel: mm-hmm.

[00:51:02] Alyssa: And sent them and expressed my frustration with how he interviews women. And then I've just experienced that over and over where I'm asked questions or people assume things about business or the way that we navigate it. And then I'm annoyed at the world by it.

[00:51:20] When I was just flying with the kids, I was flying solo with both kids. And I get on the plane and I had a system in place for every, like getting on the plane, getting sie set up on the iPad and a snack and getting beans ready. I knew she was gonna nap and like all the things that we were gonna need to be able to access.

[00:51:36] 'cause I knew she was probably gonna fall asleep on my body.

[00:51:39] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:39] Alyssa: And I get everything all set. And this guy who is sitting next to me, like in the row next to me, I was on the aisle. He was on the aisle. He was like, wow, you're so organized. You like really seem to have a system. It's impressive for a young mom.

[00:51:52] Ugh. And I was like, we don't need the last part of that.

[00:51:56] Rachel: Yeah. So this is reminding me of, um, when we first built this house, um, one of our like drainage pipes for the basement, an animal got stuck in it. Hmm. Um, and the basement flooded like a lot. There were like six inches of water. And the house had been built so recently that we were still like within our rights to like call the builder and be like, we need help with this.

[00:52:24] Um, and Cody was working and not able to deal with it. Um, he wasn't even able to like take my phone call. He was at some kind of, I don't know what kind of call we were texting and he was like, I'm sorry but I can't call. You need to call them. So Nora had croup and I was pregnant and um, this was like at like 6:00 PM I had realized like, shoot the basement's full of water.

[00:52:44] So I called the builder and I was like, Hey, like here's what's happening. I don't know how this happened, but I need somebody to come out and help me. And he was basically like, yeah, sorry, we're not gonna do that. Um, we don't know why it's flooding. That has nothing to do with this. I didn't obviously know that a drainage pipe was like blocked.

[00:53:02] I just knew that my basement was filling with water. Um, so I called my dad and was like, dad, I don't know what to do. Can you come over? Like, I am alone with Nora and she's really sick and I'm trying to deal with this. And he was like, um, give me the builder's number. And I was like, okay. But like he already said no.

[00:53:23] And so I gave my dad the number and like two minutes later my dad calls back and he is like the builder's on his way with a crew and they're bringing, um, like a commercial dehumidifier and it's all gonna be all set and I'm gonna come over soon too. Okay. So I'm the homeowner. I worked with you for the whole process of building this house, and you basically told me I was out of luck.

[00:53:43] And then my dad calls you and all of a sudden you're on your way with a crew. It's so infuriating. Why did I have to call my dad to get what I needed and last? And if Cody had been available also we would've had a crew. Like it's just the fact that I was alone.

[00:54:01] Alyssa: Correct. As a female. You are good, Kai. It's just Rach.

[00:54:06] We're in a breakdown.

[00:54:09] Rachel: Hey girl. Um, luck.

[00:54:12] Alyssa: That's a very cute jumpsuit. Mm-hmm. It's literally infuriating. It's so infuriating. And last night I said to Zach, I was like, it's freaking white men. Like it's always for me, my experience with this has always been white men. And he was like, okay, it's not all white men.

[00:54:26] I said, it's not all white men, but it is always white men.

[00:54:29] Rachel: Also. I hate that phrase, like, yeah, obviously it's not all white men. Nobody's claiming that, but it's always a white man, but it's always a white

[00:54:37] Alyssa: man. And that's what I said. I was like, it's not all white men, but it's always a white man. And he was like, that sounds like a great soundbite.

[00:54:43] And I was like, no, it's just real. Like that has been my experience.

[00:54:47] Rachel: Well, because men who aren't white have experienced oppression in a way that white men can't in this country. It's literal, it's truly not possible for

[00:54:56] Alyssa: them. Correct. So I got real fired up last night, dove into this trigger and I was like, Zach, I'm sorry that you now experience this.

[00:55:04] When you say things like input twice to me in a minute. And I'm like, I understand what an input is. Totally. And also, sorry, it just is what it is. This is my lived experience and you are getting the brunt of it. Yeah.

[00:55:18] Rachel: Cody has gotten a lot of my like, um, emotional explosions about stuff like that. Even though like he is not somebody who treats people like that, women, whatever, like that's not who he is.

[00:55:30] But I'm just like, your demographic sucks.

[00:55:34] Alyssa: Totally. And Zach will like be playful with it. Like if I'm like, can you help me open this jar of olives? He'll be like, oh, because you're so weak and I'm so strong. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, stop it now. I never want you to open. I'd rather bust this jar open and have it break the glass all over my hand.

[00:55:48] Rachel: Yeah. We banter too. Yeah.

[00:55:49] Alyssa: Big time. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's all in good. In in good fun and gist. But I just, yeah, just real. I mean, it's, its good fun and jest,

[00:55:59] Rachel: but also it's real.

[00:56:00] Alyssa: So like, ha

[00:56:01] Rachel: ha ha

[00:56:02] Alyssa: ha, ha ha. Correct. You know what I mean? Yeah. And. Ugh. Yeah. I feel like I could go on about this five ever.

[00:56:11] Oh, this could be its

[00:56:12] Rachel: own, this could be a series

[00:56:16] Alyssa: call in if you two, I've met a white man who thought that you were dumb and weak.

[00:56:23] Rachel: Ugh. And like the reality is, is like, okay, this is our experience and we are also extremely privileged, so privileged as white women. Correct. So like this is just a taste.

[00:56:33] Right? Yeah. I we talking about that last night too, I'm like, cool. Keeping that in perspective is so important. Yeah. A hundred percent.

[00:56:41] Alyssa: Yeah. We, Zach brought that up too, of like how annoying it is for black people to experience the like woke white woman and how like, yeah. They should be annoyed within all white women because it's not all white women, but it's always white women.

[00:57:01] Correct. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, no, that makes sense. Yep. Ah. Nah,

[00:57:10] that would've changed the world.

[00:57:12] Rachel: What are we talking about today? Okay. Today we're talking about shame-free puberty. Oh, fun. Okay. Yeah. With Melissa. So this is like, so timely for me 'cause Nora's 10 and a half and I, I feel like my mom did a really awesome job in terms of like teaching me about what was happening, but there was a level of like, this is really private information.

[00:57:40] Sure. And um, so like, it comes in a lot of like religious communities. Totally. It's like purity culture. Yeah. Um, and even like when she would talk about, which was very, like, very limited, but anytime she would talk about like intimacy, it would always be like, you don't talk about this with like your friends, you don't talk about this.

[00:58:02] Mm-hmm. Which, like, as an adult I do talk about it with my friends. Um. Because it's like, I

[00:58:07] Alyssa: still am like awkward in talking about it because I very much grew up in that as well, where, oh, I mean, first of all, they didn't talk to me about it at all. Right? This just overwhelmingly was the message of like, nobody talks about this.

[00:58:18] Don't ever talk about it. Don't ever let anybody see you carrying a tampon that you're gonna put in your body. Like totally keep everything hidden, right? You bleed through something, just sneak that into the watch. And she told me at one point like, here's like, you can put this on the sheets, like the solution I would put on it.

[00:58:34] Basically, oh yeah, there's a spray bottle and just pop it in the laundry. No one has to know. No one has to see it. And like, yes, she was trying to prevent me feeling embarrassed about it 100%, but what I received was, this is shameful. All of it from periods to sex and everything between, or like it's

[00:58:53] Rachel: gross, nobody

[00:58:53] Alyssa: wants to

[00:58:54] Rachel: know yes.

[00:58:54] That you're on your

[00:58:55] Alyssa: period. That's gross. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then same with like sex and intimacy. It was just fully never discussed. Yeah, it

[00:59:02] Rachel: was always like, this is really just private. And it was always called like intimacy. It wasn't even like the word sex. Mm-hmm. And like now, oh

[00:59:11] Alyssa: yeah. My mom's never said the word sex to me in my life.

[00:59:12] No.

[00:59:13] Rachel: And like now, I, I mean, I don't share like anything that would make KO uncomfortable for me to share. Like I respect him, but like, I'll just joke with my friends and just be like, like last night for instance, I was shopping and Cody and I had made an arrangement for last night and I was like, guys, I gotta get going because it's getting late and I have plans and I need to get to bed on time also.

[00:59:36] You know? And so like, and they just all laughed and we're like, ah, ha ha. Yep. We know how that is. Because like, I think when you, especially for me feeling like, all right, I've been in this marriage for a long time. I've only been intimate with one person for a long time. It's helpful for me to talk to other married women who are in monogamous relationships that are.

[01:00:01] Um, going through the ebbs and flow of like parenthood and just like being with the same person for a long time, the realities, the truth about living with somebody and like, you know, having to like deal with them like farting and pooping around you. And then also like trying to be like sexual with them and just like those realities.

[01:00:20] And I find it really helpful to talk to my friends, my close friends who I trust. Just be like, here's like my thought process right now. Yeah. Am I alone in this? And they're like, no, it's totally normal. I'm the same, you know? And then I'm like, okay, cool.

[01:00:35] Alyssa: Yes. I think like, you know, um, Vanessa and Dander Marin.

[01:00:40] Yeah. Yeah. Their handle has and book just like blown up and done so well because I think so many of us grew up in this and experienced this and it's like, oh wait, other people are experiencing that too. Or this comes up for other people too and they're shining a light on what so many humans. Don't feel comfortable talking about, we're told they were never allowed to talk about.

[01:01:03] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:04] Alyssa: And that's what I appreciate so much in Melissa's work, is that they're looking at like, how do we shift that? How do we shift away from shame so that we don't have kids who are living in silence, in secrecy, wondering, is this normal? Is this okay? Am I allowed to feel this? Am I supposed to feel that?

[01:01:26] Rachel: Mm-hmm. I remember, remember learning about

[01:01:28] Alyssa: sex and puberty from the

[01:01:29] Rachel: internet. Ugh, totally. So I remember in middle school one time I needed a tampon. It was in like eighth grade, I think, maybe seventh. And I was too nervous to ask anybody for one. So a hundred percent rather why I found my friend Kirsty.

[01:01:45] And I was like, Kirsty, I'm having a problem. Like I need a tampon. And she's like, well, I don't have one, but I'll find one for you. So she in the hallway, it was like break and she was just like, Hey, does anybody have a tampon? And the male you hid inside of your locker and died. I pretty much, but the male math teacher came out and was like, Kirsty, Rachel, that's inappropriate.

[01:02:06] Alyssa: LOL

[01:02:07] Rachel: and ak. I uncomfortable with this. And Kirsty literally was like, well, she needs it, so can you help us get one? Or what do you want us to do? I'm obsessed with Kirsty. Yeah. She didn't give, she was like, I am a honey badger. Yeah. I love it. Also, like this is a need. It's the same as somebody coming outta the bathroom being like, there's no paper towels in the bathroom or like, there's no toilet paper.

[01:02:29] I have a, is there a bandaid? It's a hygiene thing. Like it's just a normal part of being a menstruating human. Yes.

[01:02:38] Alyssa: Yeah. Actually yesterday at a workshop I was doing for childcare program, there was a male teacher at Shared. We were talking about like, what are different, like. Narratives that come up for you or mantras that you tap into.

[01:02:54] And one of his was, this too shall pass. And I was like, oh my gosh. Fun. Also, this might not hit home for you, but every month when I open my tampon box, it says, on the inside of this too shall pass. Everyone laughed and it was well received, but I was like, that 20 years ago can't be set.

[01:03:13] Rachel: No,

[01:03:14] no. Yeah. And so this is something I have to be really mindful of with my kids, of like, there's so many small ways that we can recreate this or like perpetuate it.

[01:03:27] Mm-hmm. Like I think about when Abel was like three and I was in the bathroom and I was on my period and I. It was like changing my menstrual disc. And he like was watching me and there was part of me that like just wanted to be like, all right, you need to get out. Mm-hmm. So I just like, then I'm like, okay, he's three, whatever.

[01:03:47] So I put the disc in and he goes, Hey mom, where'd that tingy go? Like, go, how'd you make that thing disappear? I can get one of those holes. Yeah. So I was like, okay, I guess we're gonna discuss this a little bit. And so I just talked to him about like my anatomy and what happens when I'm bleeding and why I wear a cup.

[01:04:08] And we were in a public bathroom just a couple days ago and he came in with me and I was on my period and he's like, oh, you're on your period. That's why there's blood in there. And I was like, yep. Exactly. And it's just like, that's it. That's all it is for him. It's just like a fact.

[01:04:22] Alyssa: Yes.

[01:04:23] Rachel: Yeah. It's not gonna be uncomfortable for him.

[01:04:26] Mm-hmm.

[01:04:27] Which it's like then when he has like friends who are menstruating and like maybe one of his friends like bleeds through or something, he's not gonna be like, Ugh. He's gonna go up and be like, Hey, you're on your period.

[01:04:39] Alyssa: Yeah. Like, do you, do you need something? Do you need something? Exactly. Yeah.

[01:04:43] How can I be helpful?

[01:04:45] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:46] Alyssa: Yeah. Isn't it cool to like see that shift mm-hmm. Actively in parenthood?

[01:04:51] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:52] Alyssa: I am very nervous about it when it comes to sex and puberty. Mm-hmm. Because that one for me, just, there was literally no conversation. Then I'm like, I just feel like I have so much learning to do around how do I talk about it?

[01:05:08] What's the appropriate amount to talk about something like, yeah, I like don't desire that my mom is the person I talk to about my sexual life. And so like, I also want them to understand that like I, you don't have to come and tell me stuff about your sex life.

[01:05:26] Rachel: Yeah, I don't want any details. No. If you need something from me, information correct.

[01:05:31] Support contraceptive, I'm here for you. Um, I, we don't need to chat beyond that.

[01:05:38] Alyssa: Yeah. And I'm like, how do I lay that foundation? I don't know. While mm-hmm. Also, so those are things that feel like just new and murky and I'm jazz to have Melissa, I mean you probably heard me like fan girl essentially through this episode because I have followed them for literally years and years.

[01:05:59] And before I had kids, like they were the resource I turned to for learning how to talk about bodies with kids. I was teaching and things like that. And I remember early on in my teaching at one point. Uh, I was changing a kid's diaper and a, their mom was there while I was changing their diaper. Its like pickup time.

[01:06:21] Mom walked in and the little girl reached down and was touching her vulva and I said something like, oh yeah, I'm gonna close your diaper. You can stop touching your vagina 'cause I'm gonna close your diaper. And she was like, can you just say vulva as an anatomically correct term? And I was like, oh yeah, totally.

[01:06:39] And then was like, I gotta learn all my body parts. And I was like, 22 or whatever. Yeah. You know, like mm-hmm. Wild. And, uh, how that's evolved and that I've had Melissa as a resource. Through so much of that journey and I'm so stoked. I mean, I think I shared their first book with you where I was like, this is so great and so helpful.

[01:07:05] And now to have this one on puberty, it's just, I'm so stoked for it to be out into the world.

[01:07:11] Rachel: It's so needed. Um, especially just like so many of us didn't have it modeled for us what we are hoping to do with our own children. And when you don't have a model, you don't have anything to pull from,

[01:07:27] Alyssa: you know?

[01:07:27] A hundred percent. You're just trying to figure out like, what am I supposed to do here? I think it's, I mean, it's true for us in the world of emotions too.

[01:07:34] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:34] Alyssa: That doing something differently than you experienced is so hard because you don't know what that looks like.

[01:07:43] Rachel: Yeah. I feel like for me, I find it harder when it comes to like sex and sexuality 'cause they just feel so charged.

[01:07:51] Yeah. From my social programming and upbringing. Um, like I found it really hard when Nora accidentally found out that sex is like recreational. Before I felt like I wanted her to know that. Totally. And so then I was like, how far do I go in this conversation? Right? But can you just actually hold that thought for a few years?

[01:08:15] We're gonna circle back legit. Like, and Cody was mortified, so I had to like deal with it. She had like stumbled upon something in our room that should have been put away. And at first I was just like, I don't think you're gonna enjoy the answer. So like, let's just not do this. And then like three days later she was like, I can't stop thinking about that.

[01:08:38] I

[01:08:38] Alyssa: was like, ah, like actually

[01:08:39] Rachel: I'm

[01:08:40] Alyssa: not gonna enjoy this conversation.

[01:08:44] Rachel: Yeah. So it's like those moments where. Yeah. I'm just like, wow, this sucks. Um, 'cause I don't want, it's so uncomfortable. It's so uncomfortable and I don't want her to feel like it is shameful or like it is something to be hidden. Totally.

[01:09:01] And so it's that balance of like keeping things age appropriate. Yeah. But not making them shameful.

[01:09:10] Alyssa: Yeah. It's so tricky. And I think about this too with like bodies and how that just comes into it of like, even outside of like body hair, but like voice change. And the way I, I have older nieces and nephews and so I have like, seen them enter into shifts and changes where like, I remember the first time my nephew discovered like, ax body stuff.

[01:09:35] Oh. And like had a, uh, a sport, like a sporting event and then had showered and like came and ran into my arms and snuggled on the couch at my parents. And I was like. Alright. This right? Like, yes. Oh, okay. Yeah. We're here now. Yep. We're in ax body land now. And then the shifts of like, oh, and then there was a voice change and things like that, that are like, hi, I don't know what to say or if to say or when to say or how.

[01:10:08] Mm-hmm. To say all the things. And having this book I think is so helpful in me as the adult, but then also being able to, when you're the parent of the child, have these conversations with them, it's written in such a beautiful way that is collaborative. Mm-hmm. From adult to child and isn't like, it's not just geared toward the adult.

[01:10:31] Mm-hmm. The child can experience this book too, and I think find answers and find themselves in it. Yeah. And learn about all bodies and all body types in a way that just is fully shame free. Yeah. Because they are gonna experience embarrassment and probably some shame out in the world. It's still such a part of the culture for so many humans that I'm not looking for shame free for them out in the world.

[01:11:00] I wanna build shame, resilience. Right. And that starts with us at home.

[01:11:05] Rachel: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:06] Alyssa: And helping them identify like, oh yeah, some people are uncomfortable with X, Y, and Z, so they might say this or that, or,

[01:11:13] Rachel: mm-hmm.

[01:11:14] Alyssa: Oh yeah, when somebody said that about your body, I wonder what was coming up for them and being able to navigate those conversations in a way that helps them build resilience to the shame that they're going to see and be exposed to.

[01:11:28] Yeah.

[01:11:28] Rachel: I think that's my goal as well of like, they're gonna experience a lot of iterations of what this could or should look like out in the world. And what I really want is just for them to know that like whatever questions they have. Or whatever like thoughts they're having or experiences, they can always come to me 'cause that's all we really have control over.

[01:11:52] Alyssa: That's it. It's a bummer. But that's it. Oh, well. I hope everyone goes in snags growing into you. I am really jazzed to have this on my bookshelf for myself personally.

[01:12:20] Alyssa: Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.

Connect with Melissa:

Instagram: @sexpositive_families

Website: sexpositivefamilies.com

Order the book: Growing into You!: An Inclusive, Shame-Busting, Get-Real Guide to Your Changing Body and Mind

Books Melissa Recommends:

Your Whole Body: From Your Head to Your Toes, and Everything in Between by Lizzie DeYoung Charbonneau

My Body! What I Say Goes! by Jayneen Sanders

Some Secrets Should Never Be Kept by Jayneen Sanders

What Makes a Baby by Cory Silverberg

The Science of Babies

It Feels Good to Be Yourself: A Book About Gender Identity by Theresa Thorn

Browse more great resources by topic, age, and type at sexpositivefamilies.com/resources