Navigating Learning To Read with a Wiggly Kid with Stefanie Hohl, M.Ed
0:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village. And today I get to hang out with Stefanie Hohl, who has a master's in education and has been teaching children to read for years. She holds advanced degrees in both children's literature and early education, and she has experience running preschool, homeschool, and local storytime programs. Stefanie developed the ABC: See, Hear, Do, Learn to Read method to make early reading fun and easy for kids and their parents. Stefanie lives in Pittsburgh with her husband, five children, and two very silly dogs. I really enjoyed this conversation because I don't know a lot about teaching kids to read. And I do know that what doesn't feel good for me is being like, sit down, do this worksheet. I know that my son who loves movement doesn't retain information this way. So I was really excited to learn from Stefanie and have personally purchased some of her materials because I'm really enjoying them. I love how she incorporates movement with reading. And I feel like I just get the best bang for my buck in terms of the time spent with my tiny human working on these skills. All right, folks, let's dive in.
00:01:24 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing method, I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans, with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:01:44 Stefanie
20, my son's 19. And then I have one girl and four boys. And then my other boys are 16, 14, and almost 12.
00:01:54 Alyssa
16, 14, almost 12. And your girl's the oldest?
00:01:57 Stefanie
Yeah.
00:01:57 Alyssa
I am the only girl with four brothers.
00:02:00 Stefanie
Oh, really?
00:02:01 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:02:01 Stefanie
My family was opposite. that I had one brother and then five girls.
00:02:05 Alyssa
Oh, wow. Yeah, wild. Where was the brother in the lineup?
00:02:10 Stefanie
He was the oldest.
00:02:12 Alyssa
Oh, just like you're, oh, that's so funny. That's so funny. I'm number four of five, so I have three older brothers, one younger brother. Yeah, but it's rare that I get to meet another girl with four brothers.
00:02:25 Stefanie
Yeah, she's pretty tough. She's the boss.
00:02:29 Alyssa
Yeah, sure. Well, especially he's the oldest. That really primes her for it. And so did you, wait, did you grow up in Pittsburgh or you just live there now?
00:02:39 Stefanie
No, I'm from Connecticut.
00:02:41 Alyssa
Oh, okay. New Englander.
00:02:42 Stefanie
East coast, yeah.
00:02:44 Alyssa
What brought you to Pittsburgh?
00:02:47 Stefanie
My husband is a doctor. So we came here for residency and we just really loved it here and stayed. So we've been here almost 19 years. It's crazy.
00:02:56 Stefanie
Awesome.
00:02:57 Alyssa
Yeah, had most of your kids there.
00:02:59 Stefanie
Yeah.
00:02:59 Alyssa
Yeah, rad. What kind of doctor is he?
00:03:03 Stefanie
He's an orthopedic surgeon. Hands, specifically.
00:03:08 Alyssa
Interesting. That's something like so does not pique my interest in terms of like would love to do. That's so funny. I was just having this conversation with a friend of mine the other day where she and I just have like very different interests in life. And she was like, yeah, I can't imagine being like, you know what I want to do? I want to hang out with and talk about kids all day. And I was like, yeah. And I cannot imagine doing her job. Like that does not fire me up at all. And it's good. She was like, you know, it's good that we all exist. And I was like, a hundred percent that all of us have our own interests.
00:03:41 Stefanie
My husband and I are kind of like that too. I'm like, he'll just text the family group chat like random pictures of such nasty things. And I'm like, oh, a little warning.
00:03:51 Alyssa
You're like, actually, when we talk about sensory integration.
00:03:54 Stefanie
Yeah.
00:03:56 Alyssa
Oh, that's funny. So then what brought you in, you have a master's in education, and what brought you into this space, this field?
00:04:06 Stefanie
So I had all my kids young. I knew I wanted to go back to school. I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I was thinking that I might wanna be like the director of a preschool. So I started getting a master's of education in curriculum and instruction, and I had taught my first four kids to read, and then I had my youngest kid while I was working on my master's, and he was just a whole different ball game. And I was like, the way I taught my other kids to read is not gonna work for him.
00:04:37 Alyssa
He was your dose of humble pie.
00:04:39 Stefanie
Yes, yes, exactly. So since I was in my program, I started researching methods of teaching reading. I did this whole research project on it, and I was really looking for, I had seen a preschool teacher use movement to teach reading and I was like, that's genius. So I was really looking for something like that that was made specifically for parents to use at home because that program was like specifically for a preschool setting and I just couldn't find anything. And at the time I also wanted to be a children's book author. So it was kind of like all my worlds collided and I just kind of wrote my own book to teach my son to read. And he was three turning four and I tried it with him and it like clicked and it was so easy. And I was like, huh, I think I'm onto something here. I have to share this with other parents. So it kind of just went from there and it just kind of snowballed.
00:05:39 Alyssa
Well, and it makes sense, right? I'm sure you've like as as you developed it, just like dove more and more into the sensory components of movement. But I think of how just the other day, Miss Rachel was on my TV and my kids were watching and my daughter, who was just about to turn one, was like doing the things she was seeing that were happening via song. And my son was like dancing around in the background, not really paying attention, but paying attention. But if you like walked into the room, you wouldn't be like, oh yeah, he's watching Miss Rachel right now. Like he was off on the other side of the room, just like kind of dancing around, but singing what he was hearing and doing it. And so often when we're like sitting still and trying to take something in, it's really challenging. So if you can speak to this of like, what does it look like to incorporate movement? You know, we with our work support thousands of teachers throughout the US and Canada and globally, but within our Seed Cert right now in the US and Canada. And some are infant toddler teachers, some are kindergarten, first grade, second grade teachers. And when we're looking at that span, if we can speak kind of broadly to the way that movement supports learning. So whether you're learning to read or you are learning routines of the day or how to exist in a group, I would love to chat about that.
00:07:10 Stefanie
Yeah, it's funny because I think it's so ingrained in us that learning means like sitting at a desk, right? Like that's just like -
00:07:23 Alyssa
Or crisscross applesauce.
00:07:24 Stefanie
Yeah, like that's just what we think, like sit still, listen or read and learn. But I really believe that's a really antiquated method. And from what like science and all this shows now is like kids need to be moving their bodies. When they're moving their bodies, it opens up a totally different part of their brain and it creates all these new neural pathways and so they're using more of their brain to learn if you're just sitting still and you're just listening or just reading You're using very small percentage of your brain. And so when you add in those gross motor movements or even like fine motor movements it just opens up more of the brain and it makes retention easier. It makes learning easier it's just a real big game -changer and I think people I mean I think people are starting to be aware of this but there's so much more room for growth in this area I think so even for I mean my program specifically uses like a hand gesture for each letter sound so you can do something specific where you're using a certain movement to teach a certain concept but on the other hand you can just use any type of movement and it still helps. Like, for example, if they're learning to spell a word, like tapping their finger for each letter, you know, or just like jumping on the trampoline, doing hopscotch, like adding in any of these things while they're learning is very helpful. And I think we so often get stuck in this rut of like, especially with kids who have a ton of energy, like, you need to sit down, slow down, chill out, like stop moving, because it drives us as adults crazy, you know, we're like, ah, like, are you even paying attention? But a lot of times it's easier for them to pay attention if they're moving.
00:09:18 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:09:18 Stefanie
But that's just hard for us as adults to grasp sometimes.
00:09:23 Alyssa
And it is so I love that you pointed out like they're using more of their brain when they're moving. I also think of the component of them working so hard to sit still, right, the the amount of energy and focus that's going in capacity, really, that's going into like, okay, I need to keep my body still when kids are not designed to be still for any length of time, really, that anytime we're asking them to do that, their attention and focus then has to go into being still. And so if we want them to have capacity for learning any other skillsets, cognition, academia, that we're going to have to have a give and take somewhere. The give and take can be on the academia side where we're saying, okay, yeah, we're gonna ask them to sit still, which means they're not gonna have as much capacity for academia, or we're gonna allow movement so they have greater capacity for academia, but that there's only so much capacity and they're gonna hit it someplace.
00:10:27 Stefanie
Absolutely. And for some kids, it really does take a lot of focus and energy to sit still.
00:10:33 Alyssa
Yeah. I'm wondering what you have seen in this when you're working with kids. What we've seen a lot of recently is a multi -diagnosis of dyslexia and ADHD, and I'm wondering how this may have come up at all in your work, like how does your approach and movement support children with ADHD and then if they have that bonus diagnosis of dyslexia as well.
00:11:01 Stefanie
Yeah for ADHD is definitely helpful because not only is it adding in the movement it's broken down into really small simple steps that kids can achieve and then like feel confident because a lot of times like kids that struggle when something feels too hard or overwhelming it's just too much and they shut down and they just don't wanna do it, right? So the way I designed my book was so like, you can just learn one letter at a time, that's it. Like do the motion, say the sound, it's fast, it's quick. And so that kind of plays into that whole ADHD brain where it's like, it's gotta be quick, entertaining, let's go, and with constant feedback of like, you did it, yes, this is awesome, you can keep going.
00:11:48 Stefanie
Yeah, getting that dopamine hit.
00:11:49 Stefanie
Right, exactly, exactly. The program wasn't specifically designed for dyslexia, so it's, you know, it's not going to be like an Orton-Gillingham type of program. But I have had a lot of parents tell me it has helped, just because, again, adding in that movement helps the kids remember and recognize, you know, whatever it is. It does help them remember in a different way, like, and a lot of times with dyslexia, their brain needs a different pathway to remember those things.
00:12:23 Alyssa
That's what I was assuming, to be honest. That's what I figured would happen is that having another avenue outside of rote memorization where that really only works for a select few humans gives them an avenue for so many more humans to have access to this learning. When we're looking at reading in general, what have you seen and why is it so difficult for some kids to learn to read? You said you had your first four and you're like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then your dose of humble pie comes along and you're like, wait a minute, what is it that you think is happening for some kids versus others in terms of why it might be easier for some or more difficult? And I guess how do we make it easier?
00:13:11 Stefanie
Yeah. Yeah, well, teaching my first four, it actually wasn't boom, boom, boom. Teaching my daughter, who was my oldest, was actually a huge struggle, and she actually ended up hating reading, but I didn't know anything different at the time, so I just, you know, pushed through. And that's why with my youngest, I was especially like, I don't want a repeat of that, because it was so miserable. And she, you know, she's 20 now. She loves reading now. We, we, we.
00:13:37 Alyssa
You've repaired that relationship.
00:13:38 Stefanie
Yeah, we turned it around. But I think part of the problem is a lot of adults assume learning to read is like a natural thing, like how kids just learn to speak by you speaking to them. They think, oh, like learning to read shouldn't be that hard, but that's not the case at all. And learning to read is actually like a very complex multi -step process that takes years. And so I think the stats say only 7 % of kids can learn to read on their own. Because there's always that one precocious kid that's four and just picks up a book and reads. But that is not the norm. But I think people think that that's what the norm should be.
00:14:24 Alyssa
That it'll just happen. We find this a lot in social -emotional development too, of like, yeah, emotional intelligence is something that's learned. These are learned skills to understand how your body works and how to regulate and what's coming up for you and how to process. And people often think it's just like you hit a certain age or stage like walking or talking that it'll just happen. And yeah, same over here. We get that a lot.
00:14:48 Stefanie
Yeah. And so and because it's such a complex process of so many steps, kids can struggle like anywhere along that.
00:14:56 Alyssa
Sure.
00:14:57 Stefanie
So one kid might pick up letter sounds really quick, but maybe they don't actually understand and the word they're reading, like there's a disconnect there. Yeah, or maybe they, it just takes them so long to sound out each letter that the fluency isn't there. And so then, you know, there's just so many aspects to it that it really does need to be taught and it needs to be taught in a systematic way. And every kid, it's gonna click for every kid at a different point. Like some kids, they get to a certain point and they get it and they're just off and they're reading. Some kids that, you know, they need that instruction until they get to those really hard words and they still need help with those, you know? So I think that's the biggest thing, just realizing like it's normal for reading to be hard. Like that should be the norm.
00:15:50 Alyssa
Yeah, and what I'm hearing from you is what we break it down into is mini stones to milestones, right? So if your milestone is they can read this sentence, What are the mini stones that lead up to that? And that there are those, it's a multi -step process, as you said, where you're going to learn mini stones along the way. Like maybe they get this mini stone down if they know their letter sounds, and then the next mini stone, and then the next one, and it leads up to this milestone of they can read the sentence and comprehend it. And so when we're looking at reading then, kids might have different challenges all throughout those mini stones. I think probably similar to something like math where you are going to continue to make it more and more complex. We're going to continue to add to the process and maybe learning your numbers was easy peasy for one kid, but understanding multiplication when you get there is a harder step, right? And so I like that kind of breakdown of there are going to be these mini stones to the milestones, and just because one step is hard or one step is easy doesn't mean the other steps will be the same.
00:17:01 Stefanie
Yeah. And I think too, because a lot of parents just think, oh, my kid will learn to read in school or.
00:17:08 Alyssa
Yeah, totally. I think that's most common.
00:17:10 Stefanie
Right. But the problem is they're usually in the class with so many kids and it's really easy to fake it. And it's really easy to get just kind of lost. It's actually really scary that like, I think the stats are like two thirds of fourth graders are not reading where they should be. That's 60%.
00:17:35 Alyssa
Wow, yeah, wow. That's wild.
00:17:38 Stefanie
Yeah, and I think another part of the problem is that there isn't really a standard for like publishers or across the country of early readers. So every publisher has their own ranking system and every school uses different ranking systems of leveled readers. So a parent can go and get, oh, I'm gonna get this level one book. My kid should be able to read this level one book. But that level one book could be, I mean, it could be a level one for a three -year -old. It could be a level one for a seven -year -old that's super-- most of them have way too hard of words is what I'm trying to say.
00:18:21 Alyssa
Yeah, yeah, sure.
00:18:23 Stefanie
And so kids often feel frustrated and defeated because they're given books that are just way too hard for them. So like the example with math, it's kind of saying like, oh, here's a level one reader, this is your level, but then it's full of long division that they've never even seen before.
00:18:43 Alyssa
Sure.
00:18:43 Stefanie
And so then they're like frustrated and they're like, oh, I can't read this book. I hate reading. And then they don't wanna do it.
00:18:49 Alyssa
Yeah, and if it's done in a way of like we're going to sit down and do this rather than it's going to be playful and engaging, of course, I don't want to do this either, right? Then it becomes doing the dishes, then it's a chore, rather than like this is going to be a fun game or activity.
00:19:08 Stefanie
Right.
00:19:09 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:19:10 Stefanie
And so, I mean, I think that's a big reason why a lot of kids just don't like to read because, you know, playing a video game is easier. And they're just given books that are too hard for them.
00:19:24 Alyssa
And more engaging.
00:19:24 Stefanie
Yeah, especially when they're given a book that's too hard for them. So I am a big, big, big proponent of letting your kids read stuff that's either too easy for them, or like actually is at their level and really getting the practice there until they can really read it well before moving on to harder things.
00:19:43 Alyssa
Yeah, I grew up playing basketball and the rule was always like coming back to fundamentals, right? Like we shot foul shots in every practice. We did drills where you're just like simple, easy ball handling, things like that where you don't want to lose it and you want to become so skilled at it. There isn't a point in which you're like, yeah, I am so skilled at these foundations that I don't need to practice them anymore. And so I like that, the idea of like, let's really stay there for a while. Let's help kids build these foundations rather than like, okay, now we're gonna level up to the next reading level just for the sake of that.
00:20:27 Stefanie
Right, and like my first levels, levels one and two are just the CVC words, like consonant, vowel, consonant. And so often parents will be like, oh yeah, my kids can read those, so should I start with level three? And I'm like, okay, well, can they read them like this? And then they're like, oh, well, no. And I'm like, okay, then you stick with level one or two. Because you don't wanna be adding more, like they really need to be able to get it and be really solid in that before you move on, which I think then makes them a really strong reader. So it's exactly what you're saying, you have to have those fundamentals.
00:21:03 Alyssa
When you are using this, is there an age, which I feel like this is quite controversial these days. Is there an age in which you are starting or are you looking more at developmentally where are they? Like what do you recommend there?
00:21:18 Stefanie
I mean, I had to put ages on the books just for marketing purposes, which I really hated doing because every child is so different and every parent is so different. And so it's really kind of this intersection of when the parent is interested in helping their kid learn to read and also when the child is. So like I have a board book version and my first book, like toddlers, like I have parents tell me they're one year old, they're 18 month old, they love doing the hand motions and learning the letter sounds. Like kids that young.
00:21:50 Alyssa
That was my son.
00:21:51 Stefanie
Yeah, like they can learn the letter sounds that young. They're not gonna be able to blend them together yet, but again, you're just building that foundation. So, I mean, it is controversial. So I always think starting as early as you can is the best, but again, you're not like, here, read this book, you know, it's learning, you're just learning letter sounds, you're just having fun with it, you're playing. They don't even know they're learning, you know, like that type of thing. But if your child is three, and they know all those letter sounds like that, because you've just been, A is ahh, you know, every day you're just going over these things, they already have such a strong foundation that learning to read, it's just gonna make it easier. But I mean, again, it's not too late. If your kid doesn't know those things and they're five, you know, you can start anytime. But I do think earlier is better.
00:22:54 Alyssa
I think that it's become so controversial because there is still such an antiquated approach to it. That like, yeah, if you're gonna sit a one -year -old down and do like circle time and letter of the week and try like this not developmentally appropriate. And it's not going to stick. But if you are doing this through play and it's just exposure in the same way that I'm going to sing songs to them or I'm going to read books to them, I'm not reading Hop On Pop so that she's going to read back to me tomorrow. We're reading this as foundational skills for literacy. We're singing songs not so that she can tell me the chords of this song, just exposure to it. And when we look at it as exposure rather than instruction, I think there's a shift there for folks like, yeah, we're just exposing them to letters, to letter sounds, to whatever. I was reading with my son. We were doing like bedtime reading probably about a year and a half ago. He was like freshly two. And he pointed to the page number at the bottom and he said, 11. And I was like, what? And I was like, wait, because we have never like drilled in numbers or letters or anything like that. And I was like, how do you know that's 11? And he said, one, one, it's 11. And I was like, correct. Yeah. Like he was like, duh, mom, like next, keep going. And I was like, yeah, where did you learn that? And he was like, it's one, one, it's 11. Like, come on, keep going with the story, right? Like he's over it. And so I was like, all right, I like let it go. We're reading. And then we came back in to like routine and the next day he was watching Miss Rachel and she was singing a song and it included the numbers. And he was like singing along to it. And I was like, oh my God, thank you, Miss Rachel. You have taught my kid one through 20, through this just like song that she would sing. And it was all through play and singing. And he retained it. He knew that when one was 11, he could recognize it. You know, he couldn't look at a group of 11 things and be like, that's probably 11, right? Like he didn't have that number concept yet down, but like the one -to -one down, but he could recognize it and identify it. And it was all through play. And for me, that falls under the just exposure. We weren't like, we're gonna sit you down, we're gonna teach you your numbers, and you're gonna be able to tell me number 11 when we get to that page. Not at all. I was like, you're gonna watch Miss Rachel while I cook dinner, and cheers. You just got some exposure here.
00:25:37 Stefanie
And exactly, when I say start young, it's exactly that. It's not like, we're gonna sit down and have a lesson. It's no, it's playing, it's having fun, it's games, it's, you know, whatever you're doing, you know, parents always sing the alphabet song with their kids.
00:25:51 Stefanie
Right.
00:25:52 Stefanie
So kids can often name all the letters. But that doesn't -
00:25:56 Alyssa
Or tell you animal sounds.
00:25:57 Stefanie
Right. But that doesn't actually help you learn how to read, knowing letter names. Yeah.
00:26:03 Alyssa
Oh, speak to that real quick. Yeah.
00:26:06 Stefanie
Yeah. So, I mean, I think parents focus so much on letter names. Like, you sing the alphabet song, all the alphabet board books, you're saying, A is for apple, B is for bear, you know, whatever. Um, but when you're learning to read, that's not the skill you need. The skill you need is the letter sound. You need to know A says, ah, and B says, buh. And so I think even adding that one little switch when you're reading alphabet books, you know, say A is for apple, ah, B is for bear, buh, buh, buh. You know, saying those sounds at the same time is huge for early reading skills.
00:26:45 Alyssa
I love that. That is such a hot tip. Because you're absolutely right. We're so used to just singing the song. And I had been gifted a trace the letter book. And so I'm like, cool, he can trace this. That means nothing to him. Unless we add in, oh, I see a picture. There's an A and there's an apple on that page. And we add in that letter sound. That's such an easy thing I feel like we can add in when we are reading with our kids or singing these songs. Rad, where can people find your book, learn more about your work? And is it really geared for families at home? Is it geared for teachers or early childhood educators? Like what's the?
00:27:31 Stefanie
Yeah, so my website is abcseeheardo.com. Everything's on my website. Everything's also on Amazon. You can also get everything at your local bookstore. or like they can order it. I mean, I designed it for parents to use at home with their kids, but I've had a lot of preschool teachers use it. I've actually had a lot of like speech therapy, reading specialists, special ed teachers have all found it very helpful. But I mean, okay, so I had five kids. I was trying to teach my youngest to read. I designed it specifically so a parent could pick up the book, use it for one or two minutes, and be done for the day, like super easy.
00:28:16 Alyssa
Practical application.
00:28:17 Stefanie
Yeah, no prep. It's silly, it's fun. Your kids will laugh, like.
00:28:22 Alyssa
Great.
00:28:24 Stefanie
And there, I mean, there are seven levels now. We do have curriculum book. If you do wanna do like a type of circle time, again, I designed it so you can just pick it up and be ready to go.
00:28:34 Alyssa
Yeah, love that.
00:28:35 Stefanie
Hardly any prep.
00:28:36 Alyssa
I need no prep over here, Stefanie, no prep.
00:28:39 Stefanie
I know, I know, that's what I needed. I designed what I wanted and needed.
00:28:43 Alyssa
Yeah, that's the gift to the world.
00:28:47 Stefanie
So yeah, so it's available all those places. And on our website, we have tons of free ideas, like game ideas, sensory ideas, crafts, all that's free on there. You can look all that on our social media as well. We post tons of ideas.
00:29:02 Alyssa
What's your handle?
00:29:03 Stefanie
It's ABC, see, hear, do.
00:29:06 Alyssa
A, B, C, like the letters, See, S, E, E, hear, like hearing, H, E, A, R, do, D, O. Great. Awesome. Thank you so much. I'm super jazzed to get my hands on this bad boy. I think my son will really love it. He is just like interested. Again, I credit mostly Miss Rachel for this interest, but he is interested in letters and in numbers and is curious, and so it feels It's like a really ripe time to be diving in with him. Awesome.
00:29:37 Stefanie
Yeah. I'd love to hear how it goes.
00:29:40 Alyssa
Yeah. Thanks so much, Stefanie.
00:29:42 Alyssa
Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.
00:29:46 Alyssa
[Music]
00:29:52 Alyssa
I haven't talked publicly a lot about this, but basically we're without childcare for Beans for December and January. And, um, we have like a bedroom and bathroom that's like attached to our house that we rent out for Seed offices. And it was going to be the person who there's somebody who lives there, but they're going to be gone for December and January and, um, also we have no childcare then. So I had reached out to a friend of mine who was on maternity leave and was like, any chance you want to spend your last month of maternity leave hanging out with Beans three days a week so I can get some work done in December? And she was like, oh my gosh, yes, please. She was like, I'm actually realizing I'm not a big baby person. I miss toddlers. She works in early ed and she was like, I miss toddlers and I miss preschoolers and I need to have some of those interactions. This is coming at a good time. And I was like, oh, great, how convenient. And so we locked in this like incredible, awesome care
00:31:01 Alyssa
for December. And then I reached out to Clementine and Max of Curious Parenting, who I had met virtually through Instagram forever ago. And then they actually stayed with us for a week, two years ago. They were looking at maybe moving to Vermont and they were coming out to like check things out here. And I was like, oh, why don't you just like stay with us while you're seeing places and whatever. And so I've like, they've been at our house before and whatnot. And then I reached out and was like, hey, any chance you wanna come, they live in Portland, Oregon. I was like, any chance you wanna come live with us for the month of January and watch Beaners three days a week? And they were like, actually, that might work. And I literally was just like joking,
00:31:56 Rachel
Throwing it out there,
00:31:58 Alyssa
Hopeful, obviously, but like, and they're here and it is incredible on so many levels. A, we have incredible care for Beans for the month of January. And B, we're just like doing life together. But like tag team, who's making dinner and somebody's playing with the kids and cleaning up and like also once the kids are down, just like playing games or hanging out and I'm such an extrovert and like that fills me up. We're playing code names, we're playing ticket to ride and it has been so glorious and I've I realized that I think to have a balanced, chill lifestyle, I need four adults to two children.
00:32:49 Rachel
Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty nice ratio.
00:32:52 Alyssa
It is incredible. And honestly, it's like validating for all of the work that I feel like we do in parenthood. When you add more adults and then it starts to like feel more relaxed and you're like, yeah. We're all doing so many things all the time. This doesn't just feel overwhelming. It is overwhelming.
00:33:17 Rachel
It is, for sure.
00:33:18 Alyssa
I'm talking about this because I follow two parenting influencers who are pretty wealthy and they never talk about their help. I have had the privilege of getting to know them a little bit and I know that they have a lot of help and they just present this parenting information of like, yeah, you're going to feel this. And then it's like, okay, to feel these things, but then you self -regulate and here's my mantra. And then I respond with intention to the kid. And it's like, yeah, when somebody else is taking my kids to and from school and making my food and doing all these household things and cleaning my house and whatever, yeah, I have more bandwidth to self -regulate. And I'm experiencing that now of like, oh, I have more bandwidth because I have more help.
00:34:12 Rachel
Yeah.
00:34:12 Alyssa
I'm like, I wish this was talked about more, especially from parenting influencers who do have a lot of help.
00:34:22 Rachel
Yeah, I read something. It was like a thing that went viral on Instagram years ago. And it was basically like parenting isn't what feels hard for-- this person to say, like parenting isn't what feels hard for me, it's parenting and then doing everything else.
00:34:39 Alyssa
It's literally what I said to Clementine the other day.
00:34:43 Rachel
Yeah, and I think about my vacation self, right? When we're in a bigger group of people, usually family, we're tag -teaming meals, we are – everybody's kind of taking care of everybody's kids, the kids have playmates, everybody has more bandwidth, right? I'm not like on vacation, I'm not like, oh my gosh, I need to –
00:35:05 Alyssa
No one's going to work. Trying to get out the door for school.
00:35:06 Rachel
Yeah, not like, oh my gosh, I need to check that email. Yeah. Or even like, it's like even just being solo and trying to cook dinner. And like, it's not like I can just be like, well, we're not going to eat tonight because I'm overwhelmed. Like, no, the kids need to eat.
00:35:23 Alyssa
These damn kids. They always need to eat.
00:35:25 Rachel
They've got to, they need to eat. And yeah, it's just, I think that idea of like, I think a lot falls on women in hetero relationships, even women who are working full time. And it's like so deeply ingrained, right? Like I was texting Cody yesterday and I was like, the house is a wreck. I am very busy with work. Like this is how the house is going to be. And that was like after I had already like left the house early so I could grocery shop before I started working and made dinner already for that night and made like a baked good for the kids to snack on. And then there was still a part of me that was like, oh, but the house is such a wreck.
00:36:06 Alyssa
So dumb.
00:36:06 Rachel
But then I was also gonna put in a full workday and be the one to pick up the kids from school and do an hour and a half of solo parenting before Cody gets home. But I have this like deeply internalized idea of what my responsibilities are. And yeah, it's too much.
00:36:28 Alyssa
Yes, it's too much. And yeah, I just am feeling like, oh, it is a bandwidth capacity thing. And I, in the same way that I shared a reel the other day about like when more women entered the workforce, which like so rad that women had choice to go to work if they wanted and whatever, but that when that happened, all of the responsibilities that had previously been on women's shoulders of raising the kids and taking care of the household and all that was their full -time job before, now was still their full -time job, and then they had a full -time job. We didn't replace those systems. And I shared that and actually my midwife messaged me, it was like, yes to this, and also just how ridiculous this idea of the nuclear family is. We're all going to be in silos. She was like, it's nuts that we're not like, hey, I'm going to make dinner on these days this week. Here's we're going to make, we're going to make a bunch of it. And we are like doing this in groups, right? That then like somebody else the next day is making dinner and making a bunch of it and whatever. That we're not all doing that is bonkers. And that's like down to with Clem and Max here, we always, Zach and I, meal plan on Sunday nights. We write it out. I do a grocery pickup order and like, bang, bang, boom, we're set for the week. We know what's going to happen, and which helps me feel comfortable and grounded and order all the groceries and yada, yada. And Clem and Max have been sitting down with us and doing the grocery plan for the week and the meal plan. And then Max really likes to cook. And so he's like, yeah, if I know the meal plan, I can cook so that when you're done with work, you guys can just hang with the kids. And we're like, what?
00:38:33 Rachel
Because that's the dream. You just want to hang out with your kids.
00:38:38 Alyssa
It's incredible.
00:38:40 Rachel
Yes.
00:38:40 Alyssa
I feel like we have a chef in the house.
00:38:42 Rachel
And your kids want that too.
00:38:44 Alyssa
Yes. It's incredible.
00:38:47 Rachel
So that...
00:38:49 Alyssa
So all this to say, can we all just live... Can we all just live on a compound where we do this together, please?
00:38:58 Rachel
Legit, like, so that day that I texted Cody and I was like, the house is a wreck. He was like, don't worry about it. I'll clean when I get home. But like, I also didn't want that. I wanted us to like spend time as a family, you know?
00:39:10 Alyssa
Because then I'm still solo parenting.
00:39:14 Rachel
Totally, or also like, then I'm like, oh, well, if you're gonna clean that up, that opens up a little bit more time for me to do this. And so then the kids are left to their own devices. Cody and I are like doing different tasks, right? Cause he's like, I'll clean the kitchen in the living room. And I'm like, wow, yeah, the toilets haven't been dealt with in weeks. So I'm like, I'll clean the bathrooms. But what we all really want the four of us is to spend time together because we've been separated all day.
00:39:39 Alyssa
Yeah, I texted Zach the other day and just said, I miss you, we've been living in the same house. It was actually, I guess, a month ago, because it was before Clem and Max, where we were just doing the life stuff. It was like, we're living in the same house, and I miss you, because I have not seen you.
00:39:56 Rachel
Totally. Yeah. Or when we are together after the kids are in bed, we're both so fried by that point that we just sit next to each other on the couch and veg out, and it's like, I wanna connect with you in a meaningful way and neither of us have it right now. I'm so tired, I'm just done.
00:40:16 Alyssa
Correct, yeah. And my narrative self and experiential self there are two different things. I want to connect with you and I also, I don't want to sit here and scroll on my phone, but also I do not have it in me to connect with you right now. Speaking of which.
00:40:43 Rachel
Did you just get that? Mom!
00:40:49 Alyssa
Mom!
00:40:49 Rachel
Abel, if you come get my phone, you can play Among Us until I'm done.
00:40:52 Abel
Where is ya phone?
00:40:55 Rachel
In my hand.
00:40:57 Abel
Did you buy it?
00:40:58 Alyssa
Ya phone.
00:41:01 Rachel
Such a raging Maine accent.
00:41:03 Alyssa
Such a raging Maine accent.
00:41:04 Rachel
Come here, sweetie.
00:41:05 Abel
You buying it right now?
00:41:07 Rachel
No, I'm not buying it, I already have it.
00:41:12 Abel
How
00:41:12 Rachel
I don't know. Because dad switched my phone for me, which I didn't realize, and when he did that all my stuff stayed the same. But I didn't realize that. I don't know what that means. Just get rid of that. Okay, I'll be done in 20 minutes.
00:41:29 Abel
Okay.
00:41:30 Rachel
All right. Yeah, or even just stuff like this, right? Like that really, he probably should have stayed home for most of this week. He's been super tired and coughing and I've been sending him because I I needed to work, Cody needed to work. Like, if there were more humans in this house, I could just be like, okay, well, Abel's staying home and I need these hours to work and then I can swap with somebody.
00:41:57 Rachel
Yeah.
00:41:57 Alyssa
That's just not the reality for American families.
00:42:01 Alyssa
It's ridiculous. Actually today, I was gonna pick Sagey up and bring him with me to my Chiro appointment and then come home and I'm done after that. And I told him that that was gonna happen. He was like, actually, I don't wanna go to your chiropractor appointment. And I was like, yeah, dude, I get it. And I can't make it to Chiro and get back to pick you up in time before school closes. This is the order this has to go in. And Clem and Max were like, if you're down, we can pick him up with Beans and just go to the library and do a little outing with them or just come home or whatever. and you can just go to your Chiro appointment solo. And I was like, oh my gosh, cool.
00:42:47 Rachel
Yeah.
00:42:49 Alyssa
It's like a vacation. I'm going to go to Chiro solo.
00:42:55 Rachel
Yeah. I remember one time I was pretty freshly postpartum with Abel and I had a dentist appointment. And of course he cried 24 -7. So I went to the dentist appointment and I was alone. And I hate the dentist usually and have raging anxiety, but I was so relaxed to be without my children, I almost fell asleep.
00:43:14 Alyssa
So real.
00:43:15 Rachel
Usually I'm shaking so hard from fear at the dentist that they're like, oh, are you cold? Do you need a blanket? I'm like, no, I'm terrified.
00:43:22 Alyssa
Just get in, get out. Let's go.
00:43:24 Rachel
Yeah, yeah. Don't give me a blanket. Just get me the hell out of here.
00:43:29 Alyssa
Who are we talking about today, by the way?
00:43:32 Rachel
We're talking about Stefanie Hohl.
00:43:35 Rachel
Yes, Stefanie. So I actually got her book. Did you get a copy sent to you, actually?
00:43:42 Rachel
Um hm.
00:43:42 Alyssa
Okay. Yeah. Because she was like, you have a copy. And I was like, I know I've looked at a digital copy that was sent over to me, but I could not. And I was like, ah, I think it was sent to Rach. So I ended up ordering a copy of it. I'm into this of like, if I'm going to do any sort of academic work, I want to get the best bang for my buck. And we know that A, doing that playfully, and B, I didn't know that in teaching reading, what's more beneficial than saying like, A, this is an A for apple, is using the letter sound. Ah.
00:44:24 Rachel
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
00:44:26 Alyssa
This letter says ah. A says ah. For them to hear the letter sound is way more beneficial than them just being able to show you a letter A. And I was like, that makes total sense. And so combining that knowledge with the playfulness component of her book, I have really enjoyed. And Sagey's been very into it.
00:44:48 Rachel
Yeah, listening to her explain how she came to create this system, so I taught Nora to read, because it was COVID and I homeschooled her. She would have really thrived with this type of instruction because of who she is and what her body needs to feel good. And like, I was able to make it like kind of playful, but like the curriculum that I was using wasn't integrating movement in the way that this program does. So that was one thing that I was like, oh, that is really cool. And would have been so helpful, especially cause like Nora, which I think this goes along with ADHD. She has like a pretty low frustration tolerance. So like, if she doesn't get it immediately, is she's like angry and wants to stop.
00:45:41 Alyssa
Same with Sagey.
00:45:42 Rachel
And this would have really helped like with her wanting to stay engaged. The other thing that was interesting to me and I actually may order some of Stefanie's like early readers for Abel. Abel's reading now, but like when I go to the library to get a book that he should be able to read, there's literally nothing there where I'm like, Okay, he's gonna be able to read this from cover to cover. There's always like words or something that I'm gonna have to help him with. And I'm like, that's gonna discourage him. And so hearing her like explain that to me was like super validating. And first of all, we need a system that is like standardized where like the levels are the same across all of the books that are published as early readers. That's a problem. One second. Among Us is -
00:46:32 Alyssa
Yeah, what is that sound?
00:46:34 Rachel
It's the sound effect of this game. Hey buddy, Abel, please turn it down. Thank you. Can you turn it down, please? My microphone's really strong, so it hears it even from that far away. Thank you. Okay. But what she was saying about how like early readers, there's too much variability in the levels and they're not consistent across publishers. And also that really we should be finding readers that are below or just at their level and not like trying to stretch them. And I was like, okay, yes, because I haven't, like when we read with Abel, I'm still reading to him and he's not really wanting to read himself. And I think it's probably because the readers that I'm getting are too advanced right now.
00:47:28 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:47:29 Rachel
So I found that really helpful too, and that it's better for a kid to be able to read a reader like that before moving on to the next level. I'm like, damn, I wish I had known this when I was teaching Nora to read, but also really relevant now because I have an early reader.
00:47:46 Alyssa
Yeah, yeah. I learned so much from her of just like, I don't know anything about teaching kids to read and learned so much from her about that. I also like really firmly fall into this space of like, I don't want people focused on academics before kids are interested or ready for this. And so what I don't want is that somebody tunes in and they're like, oh my gosh, my three -year -old's not reading. It's like, great, perfect. They don't have to be. But if you are going to be doing any of this, or if they show interest, like for Sagey, it started with the like foam letters in the bathtub that we just like had around. He was very interested in, and he would ask us like, can you write a word? Or what does this letter say? And we would be like, this letter says mm. And then he would look around and he would be like, mama or whatever. And we're like, yeah, mama. And so it started with that and then for him has just evolved. And it's ebbed and flowed. There are seasons where he doesn't care at all and he's not talking about letters at all and neither are we. But if he hadn't initiated it, I wouldn't have been like, oh, you're three and we need to sit down and do these early readers. And so making sure that when we do it, it's play -based, I think is really key. And it's not like, all right, sit down and learn how to write mama. Can't get up until you do that, right?
00:49:18 Rachel
Yeah, 100%, I agree. And even like, I think about Nora was five, she turned six early in her kindergarten year. I still wish that like, I could have done it differently knowing this information and she's not. And I wasn't like, sit down and we're doing this. But it was like, so in Maine, once a kid turned six, you either have to send them to school or you have to submit that you're gonna homeschool them and then you like can have an end year review or have them take a standardized test at the end of the year. So it was like, I am accountable to the state now for you. Um, so we do have to do something, and part of it I think is just how her brain works, but part of it too is I probably could have done a better job. She's not, she doesn't love reading. Um, she is proficient, she's at grade level, like she's fine, but she doesn't love it. And I wish, that like physically pains me because I was like devouring-- like huge Harry Potter whatever at her age. and it was like such a source of joy for me. And like, it's just not for her and she doesn't read at home and I don't make her read at home because she reads a lot at school. And like, that's just not something that I'm willing to make a part of our relationship right now is like me forcing her to do something. But I want her to want it and I don't know how to do that.
00:50:49 Alyssa
Yeah, sure. And just like diving into those parts of you, right? that are like, why, what if she is forever like, reading isn't what brings me joy, you know? And like, is that okay?
00:51:02 Rachel
And that might be like, it's gonna have to be because that's who she is, right?
00:51:07 Alyssa
It also could be something where like, you're in for the joy involves connection, right? So maybe she's not gonna sit down and read by herself, but you're reading Harry Potter together at bedtime or something like that, where it becomes a thing that you're like connected over and she feels that connection because we know that's where she thrives. Yeah.
00:51:28 Rachel
So I have to tell you a story now that you just made me think of. So she does like to read to Abel, but the problem is that she turns on this like teacher personality where she's like, okay, so I'm gonna read you the book and at the end you have to tell me what you learned that was new. And Abel's like, okay. But then like she does it. And then at the end, she's like, okay, Abel, what did you learn? And you know, there's this book about owls and he's like, I learned about owls. She's like, no, you need to tell me what you learned that's new. And this is in the back of the car and Abel started like tearing up. It was after school, he was tired. So he starts crying. And I'm like, Nora, don't make him, like you don't have to quiz him. You can just read the book to him. And like, that's enough. He's absorbing it. and he doesn't have to reiterate it. And she got so pissed that he wasn't engaging in her fake quiz that she like chucked the book across the car.
00:52:29 Alyssa
Because what she wants is to feel connected, right? And like, she wants like for her that her connection is like, oh, we're almost like playing this game, right? We're like, I'm teacher, you're student and we are connecting through this and I feel powerful and in control of something and also we get to like, yeah, play essentially a game and you're not playing the game, which means we aren't playing together, which means we are not connected and also means it turns out I have no control over you and I hate all that.
00:53:02 Rachel
And that is a big thing for her is control because like teacher is a game that happens with the bigger cousin crew and despite the fact that Nora is not the oldest, she is always the teacher.
00:53:15 Alyssa
Yeah. She's the alpha.
00:53:17 Rachel
Oh, she is. It's so real. Um, so yeah, finding ways for her to connect and like, she does like to read out loud to me sometimes. Um, but yeah, that has been a challenge for me of like, I want you to love this the way that I do. And also like, I just frankly was like not in my parents hair because I was like, all right, well, I'm going to go read for three hours. So catch ya on the flip side. And that's not the vibe for Nora.
00:53:46 Alyssa
You also aren't fueled by connection in the way that she is.
00:53:52 Rachel
Not to that degree. Like, wow.
00:53:57 Alyssa
I relate to Nora because I'm fueled by connection as well and reading isn't my go -to. Because for me, if I have like downtime or whatever, I would rather connect with somebody than read. Whereas, like, you'll be in a group of people and you'll be reading. And that makes zero sense to me.
00:54:21 Rachel
Well, I'll only be reading if, like, the conversation isn't something that I can contribute to or if I'm not interested in it. Like, I just, yeah, if it's something I'm interested in, like, I'm down. I think I'm an extroverted introvert because there are times where I am like, yeah, I want to hang, I want to talk. But the time I was reading with you recently, you were watching a sports game.
00:54:48 Alyssa
Sports game? Sports. But this is a trend. We're all hanging out and you're reading. This isn't a knock to you reading. It's that everything inside of me is like, I will find a way to connect with the humans around me because it's fueling all of me. And so even if I'm not interested in the conversation, I'm gonna find somebody else in that space who also clearly isn't interested and I'm just gonna go chat with them. Or I am gonna try and steer the conversation in another direction. Or I might add two cents. Or I'm gonna listen and whatever. I just want to connect with the humans around me. Like I'm so fueled by that. And I think Nora's similar there. And so there's zero world in which I'm going to read in the group, none.
00:55:47 Rachel
Yeah, I can't, that sounds so exhausting to me, what you just described. Like I literally can't do that.
00:56:00 Alyssa
I know, I know, but this is where I think that like the you Nora disconnect is, it's not that she isn't maybe interested in reading, it's just that she's interested in other things above it.
00:56:15 Rachel
Anything above it.
00:56:16 Alyssa
She might be a good book club person, where it's like, then she gets to connect with other people about the book.
00:56:25 Rachel
That would totally work for her. I hate book clubs.
00:56:30 Alyssa
Of course you do.
00:56:32 Alyssa
Yeah. Because it's not why you're reading.
00:56:34 Rachel
No, no. I would do it with like my close group of friends here, like if they want to do a book club, I would do it. Um, but also like I read all, like if you look at my stats on my reading app, it's all like dark, reflective and emotional. And like, that's not the vibe for a lot of my friends. So I don't know that a book club would actually work.
00:56:58 Alyssa
So good. So good.
00:57:02 Alyssa
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