Sensory Need or Behavioral Challenge? With Madeha Ayub, OT
00:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and I got to hang out with an OT that I adore, Madeha Ayub. We got to dive into what the roots of behaviors can be and how our nervous system and our sensory systems can play a role. Madeha was born and raised in the heart of New York City. She's currently residing in Central New Jersey with her husband and two adventurous little humans, both under the age of four. She gets it, she's in it with us. She's been working as a pediatric OT for about eight years and the first five years primarily in school settings before switching to home health OT. She understands the need to identify and support sensory challenges in the school systems and home environment. She works primarily with children with autism and ADHD where the prevalence of sensory processing challenges is more than 90%. With the increase of sensory processing support from her clientele and having a child who has sensory sensitivities herself, Madeha has dedicated her social media to support parents, teachers, and other pediatric therapists to understanding and supporting sensory needs of children to optimize their performance in daily activities. I don't think we give enough credit to how much our sensory systems affect our ability to engage in life, whether it's, I don't have the same amount of patience for or something at certain times of day because my sensory systems are overwhelmed. Maybe there's been a lot of noise or you walk into space with a lot of clutter and your nervous system starts ticking and saying, woo, I need some support. And then all of a sudden you're yelling at your two -year -old when it really wasn't about the two -year -old. Madeha is also the author of sensory support children's books. Be on the lookout for her new book, Before The Brave Bite, launching at the end of this year. All right, folks, let's dive in.
00:02:03 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:02:25 Alyssa
There was someone who I really loved and was so excited to get on, and we were such a little company at that point. I had no followers, nothing. And he came on and I was so jazzed. It was the first, for me, celebrity person I'd had on. And we're like a half hour into the interview and I realized I never hit record.
00:02:46 Madeha
Oh no.
00:02:48 Alyssa
And my entire, like, self melted.
00:02:51 Madeha
Oh, no.
00:02:54 Alyssa
So I'm like, I will forever hit record at the beginning now.
00:02:57 Madeha
It makes sense. Did you guys have to like, redo it or you kind of just kept going?
00:03:02 Alyssa
We redid it. He was so kind. And he was so gracious, Trystan Reese is his name. And I was like, Okay, Trystan, I have some really bummer news. I just realized I haven't been recording A, and B, I need you to say everything that you just said again.
00:03:19 Madeha
Again, in the same way.
00:03:22 Alyssa
You were doing great and I screwed up, so please repeat all of this. Oh my gosh, it was so ridiculous. Are you from New Jersey, right?
00:03:29 Madeha
So I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York.
00:03:32 Alyssa
Okay, rad.
00:03:33 Madeha
Yeah. My parents are from Pakistan, so my name means praiseworthy in Arabic, just as like a fun fact.
00:03:41 Alyssa
Beautiful.
00:03:41 Madeha
But yeah, so I moved to Jersey after I got married in 2017.
00:03:45 Alyssa
Got it.
00:03:45 Madeha
So now I'm in central New Jersey.
00:03:47 Alyssa
Sweet.
00:03:47 Madeha
But still close to home.
00:03:48 Alyssa
Yeah, that's nice. New York. That's nice. I met my husband when we were living in Brooklyn.
00:03:53 Madeha
Oh. Are you from Brooklyn? Your husband's from Brooklyn?
00:03:56 Alyssa
Neither of us are from Brooklyn. We were both just living there. Yeah. I am from upstate New York near like Buffalo.
00:04:04 Madeha
Okay.
00:04:05 Alyssa
And so like way, way out there and my husband's from Burlington, Vermont and that's where we are now.
00:04:10 Madeha
Okay.
00:04:11 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. Where in Brooklyn did you grow up?
00:04:14 Madeha
In Bensonhurst. Well, Borough Park, and then we moved to Bensonhurst when I was like 10.
00:04:19 Alyssa
Sure.
00:04:20 Madeha
So, I did all my schooling in Brooklyn and Manhattan, undergrad in Manhattan.
00:04:26 Alyssa
Oh, sweet.
00:04:26 Madeha
I went to school in Brooklyn. Yeah.
00:04:27 Alyssa
Nice, yeah.
00:04:28 Madeha
My entire life was in New York. I didn't think I would ever adjust anywhere else.
00:04:33 Madeha
Yeah. I feel like city folk. It's like New York City is so different. I had said to somebody when I was in college something about the city, and they were like, what city? And I was like, what do you mean what city? The only city.
00:04:44 Madeha
The only city.
00:04:48 Alyssa
But yeah, I have a number of friends who were born and raised in the city and are like, yeah, I couldn't ever live anywhere else.
00:04:58 Madeha
Yeah, but now when I go back, I'm like, how did I live here for all these years? People are so rude here.
00:05:03 Alyssa
That's so funny. Oh, you just adjust to it, man. Yeah, we lived in Brooklyn. I started my master's, I was teaching preschool. And my husband actually did undergrad at The New School in the city. And so we met when he was graduating his undergrad and I was teaching.
00:05:26 Madeha
Sweet.
00:05:26 Alyssa
Yeah, lived in Bushwick for a little bit and then went to Boston. And when we went to Boston, I had never really been to Boston and we moved there for him for grad school. And about like two months in, this is gonna offend any Boston folks, so earmuffs if you're in Boston, but I was like, oh, they haven't figured out how to be a city. Like going from New York to Boston was like, oh my gosh, the public transportation, like so much, I was like, yeah, they don't know how the city stuff works yet. It was such a hard transition. Such a hard transition.
00:06:00 Madeha
Well, Brooklyn will always be special to you.
00:06:03 Alyssa
Yeah, that's right, that's right. And you have two kiddos?
00:06:06 Madeha
I do, I have a four -year -old and a one -year -old.
00:06:08 Alyssa
Nice. Yeah, I have a three -and -a -half -year -old and an eight -month -old, so similar little worlds.
00:06:15 Madeha
Oh, very close!
00:06:15 Alyssa
I just got my first stretch of six hours of sleep in a long time last night and –
00:06:23 Madeha
I get those some days.
00:06:24 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:06:25 Madeha
And I never know when that night will be.
00:06:28 Alyssa
Correct. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, my gosh, I could do anything today.
00:06:31 Madeha
Yes. I can conquer the world right now.
00:06:35 Alyssa
So real. Oh, it's so real. Well, what brought you into OT work? OT’s are like my favorite humans to hang out with. I feel like I could dive into the nervous system all the time and never get bored. But I'm curious, what brought you into it?
00:06:51 Madeha
I just love that OT’s focus on the daily activities that most people take for granted. And you don't realize it until after, an injury or a disability and you realize, I need help flipping the pages of my favorite book and I can't do it, and I can't read, you know? It's like those simple everyday activities. And for me to be a part of someone's, you know, to help their quality of life in terms of daily activities, I mean, that means the world to me. And then using play. I mean, I've always known I wanted to do pediatrics. And in OT school, I did my best to expose myself to everything outside of pediatrics. And I graduated knowing I'm definitely going into pediatrics.
00:07:31 Alyssa
That's awesome.
00:07:31 Madeha
And to use play to meet their goals. I said this is this is amazing.
00:07:37 Alyssa
Yeah, it's so rad,
00:07:39 Madeha
I love that part of OT.
00:07:40 Alyssa
Knowing what I know about OT now, I'm like, I think that's probably what I would have gone into had I known what I, now what I knew then.
00:07:46 Madeha
I can see you, I can see you as an OT.
00:07:48 Alyssa
Hey thanks. Yeah, I just dig it so much. It's, for me, the baseline of existence. Like we, our nervous system is involved in everything we do. And my exposure to OT, earlier on was just fine motor, right? Like and so often in a school setting, K -12, that's the focus when we're looking at OT.
00:08:13 Madeha
Handwriting, pencils.
00:08:13 Alyssa
It's like, exactly. And that did not excite me, but looking at like, as I learned more about OT and was exposed to integrative OT’s and how the eight sensory systems work together, I was like, ooh, this, this excites me. And like, this is a part of how we exist in the world. And then my work in emotions, we can't do it without talking about the nervous system.
00:08:41 Madeha
I think that's what happened to me too, or the first five years. I mean, I've been OT for about seven years now. And the first five years, I was solely in school -based settings. And I loved it and it was great, but now I switched over to home -based OT and it kind of opens the door to things outside of handwriting and academic goals. And, but I still collaborate with the teachers, because I want that transfer of skill and the continuity of care. But just, it's so much more exciting when I can just work on everything else that's important to this child. And then sensory plays a big role because all my clients are autistic and more than 90 % of autistic children have sensory processing challenges. And then my own daughter has sensory sensitivities. And I feel like, I mean, we all do in some degree have sensory differences, but it just, it makes it even more, it hits home, this topic.
00:09:29 Alyssa
Sure, yeah, my two children have very different nervous systems and process stimuli so differently. And so when we've looked at schooling for them, it's really, I chose the childcare that my son is in for him, the number one thing I looked for was the stimuli of the classroom. So I wanted small class sizes and an environment that for him was going to be as regulating as possible because he's a sensory sensitive kid. And my daughter is, they're so vastly different. And for her, like she loves a big group of people, give her like background noise and like background music and she's like jamming.
00:10:21 Madeha
She's thriving.
00:10:22 Alyssa
Yeah. And then there's my son who recently, my husband was bringing him to school and he was like, hey, Dada, is that music that you're playing? And he was like, yeah, buddy. And he was, oh, could you turn it off? And they're just so different. But taking this into account, what I'm jazzed to get to chat with you about today is how sensory seeking or sensory avoiding behaviors can show up in school systems, whether it's in childcare, in our birth -to -five population, or in K -12. How does this show up and how can we support the nervous system with sensory -friendly classrooms and strategies there? So, jazzed to dive into this with you.
00:11:06 Madeha
Yes. One of my favorite topics. So as I said, we do all have sensory differences, so we all may be naturally sensory -seeking and sensory avoiding. But the students that I will be talking about are the ones whose sensory processing challenges, the way they're making sense of the sensory world, things that they're seeing, smelling, tasting, touching, is affecting their behaviors, is affecting their academic performance, their ability to even make friends, to play with friends, to attend to tasks. So these are the students that need the support and to really need help making their world comfortable. So, when I talk about sensory seeking first, so these are the kids whose brains are under registering sensory information. So, for them to perceive sensory information and make sense of it and organize it, it needs to be almost greater doses of it. So, you may call out someone's name in the classroom and it's not that they ignored you, maybe it just simply just did not register, never happened to them, doesn't exist. And so, you say it a little louder and all of a sudden they hear you. So, same thing with tapping them on the shoulder. Maybe they didn't feel the tap, maybe it just wasn't meaningful to them. It wasn't, you know, and so when you provide a more firm touch, all of a sudden they're perceiving sensory input. And so, and these are the kids who constantly, if they're not receiving it, they're going to now seek it out themselves. And so a child who wants a firm touch has a very hard time keeping their hands to themselves. So they'll hug their peers, they'll hug the teacher, and you think, oh my God, he's so loving, but it might be a sign of sensory needs. You know, they're constantly touching their pencil and their belongings and peeling things off the walls. Maybe they're like peeling off the border on the bulletin board or the work on the walls. And many of them sometimes will like drag their arms on the walls as they're walking or their entire body. And I've seen that so many times as they're walking down the hall, their entire body's just being dragged on the walls because they're constantly craving that sensory input. And you'll see that they may appear a little clumsy in the classroom. and they may drop their pencil, things that are very light, light touch, like a paper, oftentimes they'll just drop it because they just don't, it's not heavy enough for them to perceive it. Sensory seekers...
00:13:16 Alyssa
Okay, let me pause you real quick here because I think that you just dropped so much knowledge. So I think of this, we got a new van and it has this feature where whenever you're like, I'm gonna put this in quotes, close to something, it will start like beeping, right? So like I'm backing out of my driveway and I have my recycle bin at the end of my driveway and it's like beep, beep, beep, beep, beep as I get closer to it. And if I were to like almost hit it, the van stops itself. So it'll stop moving. If I'm like hitting the recycle bin, it freezes. And same if I'm like driving and there's a car and I'm getting closer to it, you like it's impossible to tailgate in this van because as you get closer, it slows you down. And I think of this with that sensory seeking, especially proprioceptive seeking, of that sensor inside of their bodies is going off at different points, right? So for my sensory sensitive son, who does not have high proprioceptive seeking needs, when somebody comes into his space bubble, his space bubble's pretty big. So his like beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, you're getting close to me, starts to go off much before my daughter's. My daughter loves like a deep pressure, deep squeeze, deep snuggle. And her beep, beep, beep, beep, beep sensor of you're getting too close to me doesn't go off until there's quite a bit of pressure. Whereas his goes off before you're even touching him really. And looking at that for our sensory seekers, for folks who are tuning in and are like, okay, I feel like I'm starting to get this. It can present as a behavior challenge. Sometimes a sensory seeker might go and they go to sit next to somebody and they sit on them. Or they do sit really close and they snuggle up. In fact, our really good friends have a daughter that's a month older than Sage, and they are a sensory mismatch, where she is proprioceptive seeking, and there's a bench at their dining room table that the kids will often sit at. And we have to put an adult between them because she wants to just slide closer and closer and closer to Sage and Sage is like, get away, my nervous system's beeping. And hers is like, we're not touching enough. And so really looking at when we step back and we watch how kids move through the world, that sensor is to let them know where their body is in relationship to other things. So the kid whose arm is dragging on the wall at school, it's not to just be annoying and drag their shirt on the wall and get it dirty or rip off papers with their shoulder as they go, but rather to let their body know where it is in space, where their body ends and something else begins.
00:16:07 Madeha
Right.
00:16:07 Alyssa
And we all have different kind of sensor thresholds.
00:16:11 Madeha
Right. And I always tell teachers too that I feel like that part, knowing if a child has sensory issues, I feel like it's probably the more obvious part. Because a child who is seeking a lot of movement, they will have such a hard time sitting still. They're kicking their legs. They're really fidgety. They're constantly moving up. A child who's craving oral input puts everything in their mouth. Their markers are in their mouth. Their erasers are in their mouth. On the flip side, a child who's very sensitive will cover their ears to auditory sensitivities, will have a meltdown when they taste something that's just disgusting. And the texture is just aversive to them. And so I feel like that part, kids are pretty good at showing where they're having the sensory challenges.
00:16:55 Alyssa
If we are listening.
00:16:56 Madeha
Yes. And I think the key is it has to be across all settings also. So I tell teachers if a child has sensitivities to maybe certain textures like glue, you're doing an arts and crafts activity and all of a sudden they don't like the glue and they don't want to do this activity. But then mom says, hey, like he loves glue at home. Then it's kind of like, okay, maybe there's something else that's happening. Not to say that, you know, it has to be, I mean, sometimes kids do better at home because it's a safe environment. And sometimes kids actually do better in school when everyone else is doing the activity.
00:17:29 Alyssa
Sure, peer pressure.
00:17:29 Madeha
And so all of a sudden, right. But it's not like it goes away. It will not eliminate, you know, there will be still some degree of sensitivities to glue at home. And so how does a teacher know like this is happening across all settings, you know,
00:17:43 Alyssa
I have a clarifying question. What about when it comes to capacity, right? So for a kid who is tactilely sensitive and maybe that glue is dysregulating for them, but they're interested in the activity and they at school, if all the other stimuli around them is draining their nervous system and they just have less capacity then for this additional thing versus at home, if it's maybe quieter, calmer, and there's less stim, et cetera, then navigating the glue, they might just have access to it because they have more capacity.
00:18:25 Madeha
Right, and I think that's why it's so important to have that sensory -friendly classroom when everything is put into place. Once that classroom is, you know, more regulating, and then these activities do get easier. And I also think that adaptive techniques help, you know, maybe a glue stick instead of the actual liquidy glue, or having them use a paintbrush to dip the paintbrush in the glue and use that instead. So those also help when it comes to sensory sensitivities. But I think when we go into talking about what is a sensory -friendly classroom, I think that will definitely kind of set these kids up into a more regulating environment.
00:19:00 Alyssa
Let's break that down. What is a sensory -friendly classroom?
00:19:04 Madeha
So I do have many things, and of course I don't want to overwhelm teachers, but I think eventually when these things are put into place, I hope it becomes, you know, second nature, but I think...
00:19:13 Alyssa
Well, and just to know, if you're a parent tuning in and you have a child who you're like, oh, they're getting overstimulated at school or it's a hard environment for them, this next section can be for you to use as an advocate for your kid to say, here are some things that might be helpful for my child at school. So sorry to interrupt you.
00:19:30 Madeha
No, no, no. But absolutely, you're right. So a sensory building classroom, so is one that has frequent movement breaks. You know, children, I think every 20 to 30 minutes need a break, need to get up. It may not have to be, you know, all these crazy exercises. It just may be a change of space, just get up from their seat, walk around. And I think that that helps all children. I don't think it's just the sensory, you know, challenging to children. I think that is for everyone. And it also helps the children who don't want to be singled out. Because I remember that was an issue I was having with my students, like, I don't want do jumping jacks in the back of the classroom, even though I want to move, but I don't want to be the only one. And so I think classrooms that have frequent movement breaks is really regulating. Adaptive seating is very important. Some kids do really well standing while they work. Some kids do really well lying on the floor. And that one actually is one that I recommend because we were talking about that deep pressure input, which actually works well for both sensory sensitivity and sensory seeking children when they have deep pressure on their body. And so when they're lying on the floor, it's actually very regulating. And I think also it's visually easier to kind of focus on what's in front of them as opposed to like being up and having the entire classroom, you know, at their view. So I think lying on their floors, but also having adaptive seats as in like a wobble stool. A seat cushion is something that is great because it's portable. They can have it at their chair. They can also bring it to the rug. It's filled with air so they can wiggle while they're sitting on it and they also has textures on top so that you know taps into the tactile cravings. So I think adaptive seating is really important. Sensory tools.
00:21:17 Alyssa
Hang on pause.
00:21:18 Madeha
Yeah.
00:21:18 Alyssa
So we have so far the movement breaks every 20 to 30 minutes. Yes. And when you said that I was thinking of like you know when we were kids you could go and like sharpen your pencil or whatever like you could get up and go do that. And so there were times where I remember as a kid just being like, I can't sit still anymore and going and sharpening my pencil, even though I didn't have to sharpen my pencil, but it was an excuse to get out of your seat that wasn't othering, as you said, where like if the movement breaks are exclusionary, where only these kids need or get them, we can shift it to be inclusionary of, hey, everyone in this classroom needs to move. So when the timer beeps, we're going to do a quick freeze dance or we're going, you know, that it doesn't, from the teacher perspective, have to take up even five minutes of your time. It can take up 30 seconds of your time. And then adaptive seating was your next one. So looking, I also want to bring this into the childcare world where at circle time, this can come up too. It can be really hard. Every single picture we get, for the most part of my child at circle time, he's laying on his stomach. I love that his teachers are like, sure, whatever works for you there, bud. But another thing that I had found helpful when I was teaching was that they don't have to come to circle time. That if it's harder for them to sit around that circle, there are other options for what they can do and where they can be, where they can still access the learning.
00:22:50 Madeha
Exactly, and I think the goal is not for a child to be physically at the rug for circle time, but to participate.
00:22:57 Alyssa
Correct.
00:22:58 Madeha
And for that, they can participate from their desk and come when they feel ready. They can be the first to join if that's easier and the first to get up if that's easier for them. And so these are all great ways. And sometimes weighted items are also helpful. So having a weighted lap pad, a weighted shoulder pad as they're sitting are great. And it's interesting you mentioned the pencil sharpening because I was gonna point out that giving, I mean, the movement breaks are great for everyone, but what about that student that just needs there's even more movement than that. Giving your students classroom chores or classroom tasks to give them opportunities to get up and to receive those, I call them heavy work, like sharpening your pencil, opening a heavy door, and it's really tapping into the deep pressure sense. So being the door monitor, opening up that door, and maybe every child that comes in, they get a high five, they get a fist pump. They help the teachers hand out the books, hand out the materials that need to be given out. And these, like you said, it's not something that's adding on to the classroom's routine. It's not something extra that the teacher has to do. If she's doing this anyway, just have that student engage in these. And I feel like it's great because they're not singled out. And I mean, they're singled out, but not in that way. They're doing this task and they feel good about doing it, but they're also regulating themselves by having opportunities to get up and do things. So I think giving those students classroom tasks are really important and it meets their regulatory needs. Even erasing the board, I think it's great. And I don't know if classrooms still do chalkboards. I think that, is that still a thing?
00:24:34 Alyssa
I think it's kind of a thing of the past.
00:24:35 Madeha
Yeah, okay. Well, why, is it like smart boards only?
00:24:39 Alyssa
I think for the most part, yeah.
00:24:41 Madeha
Oh, okay.
00:24:41 Alyssa
Which, you know, ups and downs there, but yeah, kind of a bummer to lose things like that. But I'm thinking even in early ed, I had a tiny human who every time we would get like a shipment of art supplies or something that would come in, he was my helper for like putting away the jars of paint and things like that, because unboxing it, putting it away, it was also a way where he really felt empowered and included and like he belongs here. And it got that heavy work. And I think of heavy work as like CrossFit for kids, right? Like how can we get them lifting and pushing things that are just a part of our everyday routine?
00:25:17 Madeha
Right. And some kids, like you said, your daughter loves the deep pressure by you physically giving it to her. But how do you give deep pressure to a child that doesn't want to be touched? Because that's more of maybe a tactile sensitivity. I don't like to be touched. Well, these tasks can give them deep pressure without anyone touching them.
00:25:35 Alyssa
Yeah, I love that.
00:25:35 Madeha
And that can be very calming as well. And something that's becoming a little more popular, and I want it to be even more, but sensory pathways. So sometimes in the hallway from classroom to classroom room to room there might be like these like sticker templates on the floor of maybe like frog leaves or like a hopscotch template where a child can like know exactly where to jump and hop to the next room and it's also a visual reminder that I can do this and if not in the hallway you can have little sensory pathways in the classroom. And if there's no room on the floor I know it gets very cramped in the in the classrooms, but maybe like having on the wall like handprint so they know they can press their hands against this area of the wall and even giving the opportunity, like if you're all at the rug, maybe you can frog leap to your desks, or you can crawl to your desks. Because right before a tabletop activity, that's the best time to kind of give that heavy work activity. And so giving them that opportunity that you can crawl, leap, jump to your desks, I think it's great, even if it's a few kids at a time. And I think those little sensory pathways really help. Like I said, I want that to be kind of all across all schools.
00:26:38 Alyssa
Yeah. I think a lot of times in early ed, there is a lot of the like, do you want to be a kangaroo or do you want to fly like a butterfly, you know, like over to your, to your desk. I think that's become more commonplace, but would love to see more of it, especially K2, kindergarten to second grade.
00:26:55 Madeha
Yeah. And that way you don't always have to prompt them, like, you know, do you want to do this? It's like, oh, it's here. I can do it. I can jump. I'm allowed to jump here.
00:27:02 Alyssa
It requires the shift for the adult mindset out of a control mindset. I think especially K -12, we, I mean, so many of my master's classes for early childhood, I had a handful around classroom management and behavior management, and it was really about how to have control, which we know is a joke because it's perceived control. And what it was like, they had to get them to walk in a quiet line in the hallway or things like that, or to get them to come to circle and sit in their spot. Doing this, having sensory friendly environments, it requires the adult to have cognitive flexibility to say, I'm going to go outside of what I know or what my goal had been of everybody comes to circle or everyone walks in a straight line in the hall. And really in the end, you as the teacher win because you're going to have more regulated children, they're actually going to attend more and learn more and engage more by letting go of the desire for them to attend in a specific way.
00:28:14 Madeha
Exactly. And I think even when it comes to, like I know children are in the classrooms majority of the day, so if they have like 30 minutes of recess and 45 minutes of recess and this child did not finish their work and was disrupting the class, and I know teachers kind of have this urge like, no, you have to finish your before you go out, but then withholding that beautiful opportunity for this child to go out and meet their sensory needs and come back regulated and come back better prepared to do that work, I think it's something that teachers just have to be like, I know he didn't finish, but this is also what he needs. So I'm going to let them play and then he can come back. And a lot of teachers, I think sometimes it's natural to kind of want to kind of withhold certain and opportunities of, you know, sensory, opportunities, sensory tools. I think that is something that a classroom has to not do.
00:29:03 Alyssa
Yeah, well, and if you, like, if you as the adult thought about, if this kid was hungry, right? If you knew they were so hungry, they hadn't had lunch, lunch was late, blah, blah, blah. And they couldn't figure out this math problem or they couldn't finish this task. They couldn't finish cleaning up these toys or whatever it is. If you were like, no, you can't eat until you finish this. They're gonna continue to spiral. They're gonna get more and more dysregulated. They're gonna get hangrier and hangrier, and it's not actually gonna help them access that activity. And so the same thing here, just sub, my body needs to move. My body's overstimulated in for that hangry, and until they can move their body in the way that they need to, or have a break from the stimuli that might be around, they won't be able to complete that task.
00:29:48 Madeha
And I do wish, like when you talk about snacks on food. Sometimes just the crunch, not even if they're not hungry, but sometimes just something crunchy. And these are for the oral sensory seekers who constantly want things in their mouth. Having something crunchy and chewy is really helpful. And sometimes during my OT sessions, now that I'm working in the home so I can kind of give them whatever they want, I always ask them, like, do you want a snack while you write? And I see a night and day difference when my child is even chewing gum while writing. They're so focused. And it's a constant oral sensory feedback. And we do have like those chewy necklaces, but a lot of the times in classrooms kids don't want to be the only ones wearing it and you know, and so I get it. So I'm always about like discreet ways like hey Do you have a water bottle with a straw so you can you know, suck and blow, and or snacks and I wish that was something also if a child needs a snack, maybe they are also needing some oral input and I think that's such a great way for them to receive it And I know a lot of the time the teachers I think one question I get a lot especially on Instagram is is, you know, what if all the kids want to do this now? Or what if this one student has a fidget, but they all want the fidget, right? And how do you go about that? And I think these are really important conversations for the teachers to have with their class. You know, we all have different bodies and some kids need a little more movement to feel ready to work. Some kids need less movement or less light and some kids need something in their hands. And I feel like these are conversations that should be normalized in classrooms because all kids don't need that, you know? And I would say, give everyone a fidget, but like that's not the solution because not everyone needs one. But I think those are really important conversations to have and then also there's so many different ways, like we said, the classroom tasks and giving kids time to go out and I think those are just great ways and just having these sensory events happening throughout the day. So there's no build up of dysregulation and just, I think that's also the key. And I think sometimes even like ourselves, like, I think if you have a child who's very overwhelmed, I think, like, I'm always mindful of what I wear and my own tone. And I think as teachers, like, sometimes we like to dress her in, like, in colorful colors. And I do, too. I love wearing colors, especially on my hijab. And when we're excited, if a child does something great, we're like, oh, my God, great. And then all of a sudden, you see them, like, feeling really uncomfortable, even though you're praising them. So I think that's one thing I've mastered, how to show excitement calmer, in confidence. And it's like, yay, you did that, you did it, you know? It's like I'm whispering, but, and I think it's just, you just have to be mindful of yourself as well.
00:32:28 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:32:28 Madeha
Even, even the walls, I think, I think teachers, I mean, I love, I love what they do and they always come from a good place. I think sometimes the walls are a lot in classrooms. There's artwork all over the walls. There's these beautiful, colorful bulletin boards. And I think a child who's more on the sensitive side, there's way too much visual clutter. And they are having such a hard time attending to what you're seeing when there's colors coming from all over. All four walls have colors. And so more muted walls, neutral tones, maybe just having one wall if you do want to display any artwork, maybe in the back of the room where the area where the children are not seated when they're doing work. All these you have to be mindful of, you know. And I know most classrooms are colorful, but to me, a sensory friendly classroom does not have bright colors. It's not a vomit of colors.
00:32:28 Alyssa
Yeah, agreed. And that really just recognizing that if we choose to do that, if we have that visual stimuli everywhere, for some kids, their brain's going to be so focused on that clutter and trying to just weed that information out that they're going to have a harder time focusing in on what we want them to focus in on. Just recognizing that anytime we're adding stimuli, that for some kids, that's going to decrease their access to learning. And I think for the fairness piece, it's something that comes up a lot. And we talk about how do you present this to kids, right? Like talking to kids about how their body works and what's helpful for their body. But I saw a reel on Instagram the other day and I loved it, I saved it. It was a teacher who was saying at the beginning of the school year when this comes up with the kids, like, well, so -and -so gets to have X, Y, and Z, or I can't have it, that's not fair. And so she starts with this activity with band -aids and she pulls them out and she's like, who in here has ever got a scrape on their elbow? And everybody like raised their hand or most of the kids raised their hand and so she calls on one person and says, tell me about what happened. And they tell the story about when they got their scrape on their elbow and she gives them a band -aid and puts it on their elbow and says like, oh, this probably would have helped you feel better right here. And then she's like, who ever got like bumped their head. And a few kids raise their hand and she has somebody tell their story and then she goes, oh, and she goes over and she puts the band -aid on that person's elbow and says, this probably would have helped you feel better. And then another one of like, whoever bumped their knee and they tell their story. And then again, she gives that person a band -aid on their elbow. And she says to them, look, everybody got the same thing. Everybody got a band -aid on their elbow. But the bandaid on the elbow was only what one of you needed. The others needed something else. Maybe you needed an ice pack for your head or you needed a bandaid on your knee. If everyone gets the same thing, then not everyone's getting what they need. And I was like, oh, I love that. Yeah, just that depiction, especially for kids as they're getting older of what equity is versus fairness.
00:35:34 Madeha
Oh, I love that.
00:35:36 Alyssa
Yeah, isn't that cool? Instagram for the win.
00:35:40 Madeha
And I think teachers can do their best to kind of keep things visually less stimulating, but I think sometimes it does get hard, especially if you have a classroom of 20 kids and everyone's getting up and the sound of the chairs and the desks, although you could put little tennis balls on it, but it happens. You have a classroom party or any event.
00:36:01 Alyssa
Sure.
00:36:01 Madeha
So I think just having also like a quiet space, like a designated space in the classroom where a child, if they need to kind of go and escape from the busy environment, whether it's like a little tent or just like a little area where they know when I'm here, I can just, there's no demand. I can just come here. Maybe it's less lighting in the back of the room, calmer music, anything where a child can just wind down. And I think it's good, just like we were talking about movement breaks for everyone, but also times when everyone kind of just like winds down, especially right after an alerting activity, right after like a pizza party or coming back from lunchroom. I know the cafeteria is definitely that's probably one of the hardest transitions for teachers coming back after lunch. And so having opportunities to go and kind of also kind of wind down. But then for those who need extra, you know, just escape, I think it's good to just have a designated space in the classroom. And I love classrooms that do have that.
00:36:56 Alyssa
Yeah. My sensory sensitive kiddo, he kind of formed this on his own. He went into his new classroom last year, so two's room, and day one, he like found that the wooden structure they had in the classroom was like steps up and a slide down. It was like a small little slide. He found that there was a little nook under the slide and it became his little nook. So when we would do drop off and he was feeling sad or whenever he felt overwhelmed, that that was his space where he could go and he could take his slothy, his comfort item and go in there and then just come out when he was ready. But it was his sensory break. One thing I found so helpful for sound sensitive kids is for them to get to control the sound of something. We often have like noise canceling headphones as an option or things to like decrease sound. But I'm a sound sensitive human. So I discovered this for myself. And as we started to do it with kids realized like, oh, when you're in control of sound, it can be regulating. When you're not in control of sound, it's dysregulating. So for me, when my daughter's screaming at the top of her lungs, she's got quite the vocal cords and she gets very excited and it's not even always like I'm mad. It's like she's jazzed and she wants to get something and she doesn't have the language yet, right? And so she'll just scream and it is piercing. It is piercing. And I like hit my point where I'm like I need a break from the sound. But if I just tune out sound, it doesn't do it for me. I'm still like dysregulated. But if I can pop in AirPods and listen to a song for one song or listen to an audio book or listen to a podcast and drown out the other sound, even for just a couple minutes, it's regulating for me where I take control of the sound. And so same, I had a preschooler who before every transition, we would let him know, hey, bud, we're about to ring the bell and people are going to start cleaning up. If you would like to go over right now and I'm going to say books on tape, which dates me, but like audio books or music and he would always pick the exact same song, but he would listen to that with headphones on and it would drown out everything else and he got to control the sound. It was a game changer for him versus when we just used noise canceling headphones.
00:39:13 Madeha
Absolutely. No, I think that's a great point. Giving children more autonomy and control is key. Yeah.
00:39:20 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love this so much. And this is, honestly, I think when we're talking about sensory -friendly classrooms, people often think of like autistic children or kids with sensory processing disorder. And the reality is that sensory -friendly classrooms benefit all of us. That we all have a nervous system. We all have eight sensory systems. And there are going to be things where,
00:39:43 Madeha
Even the teachers
00:39:43 Alyssa
That's what I'm saying, like even the teachers, we have, like I'm a sound sensitive human, right? And so for me, when I can be mindful of like, yeah, I don't have background music playing in my classroom, there isn't just like music on in the background, because it would drive me bonkers to have that running in the background. By reducing that music, it's also going to help other kids who it would drive them bonkers, and they wouldn't be able to attend to what's at hand. When we can support the nervous system with either less stimuli or accommodations for stimuli and access to more movement, it is a win for everyone whether you have a sensory processing challenge or disorder or you're autistic or not. It's a win for all of us.
00:40:34 Madeha
Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:40:37 Alyssa
Oh, I love this so much. Thank you for doing the work you're doing.
00:40:41 Madeha
And you know, and I was thinking about also your own children, you were saying how they're on the opposite spectrum. And so I'm thinking about the teachers who have those students who has a sensory seeker, and you're doing a group activity. Who do you cater to? The one who wants the sound or who doesn't want the sound, right? And so sometimes that's a problem where like he wants to be loud and he wants to be excited and this person's very withdrawn. And so I feel like the sensory seeker, if they are given ample opportunities to be loud and make their sounds, by the time you get to that group activity, you can cater to the one who's a little more sensitive. And so it's really finding the right balance and that's why it's something that should be prided throughout the day. So when you do the group activities, you don't have a bunch of dysregulated kids.
00:41:27 Alyssa
Yeah, and on that flip side for the sensory sensitive kid, I even noticed it in my household that if my three -year -old, if we can build his capacity, so if there's decreased stimuli or he has access to the regulation that he needs throughout the day, then when my daughter screams, he has more capacity for that scream. Is it his favorite sound? No, but when it's the end of the,
00:41:50 Madeha
He's better prepared for it. Yeah.
00:41:51 Alyssa
Exactly, he has more capacity for it. Versus like, oh, it's close to nap time or he just got home from school and he's dysregulated or whatever. At those times when she screams, he screams right back at her. He's like, no screaming! The irony of it. But when just this morning it happened and he we call her beans or beaners and he was like 'Beaners, screaming is not a choice right now. Instead of screaming. You can say mama. Where are you?' But he can only access that When he has the capacity for it and right exactly. So she needs access to express and scream but he also when we build his capacity and he can handle more noise he can handle more stimulation when his capacity's been built.
00:42:35 Madeha
And I think it's funny because we're talking about children who have like mixed sensory profiles, but I think also one child can be sensory seeking and sensory avoiding, where a child can be sensory seeking in movement, but then has sensory sensitivities in sound.
00:42:53 Alyssa
Yeah. I have a theory. I think that when we see that, most often, it's that they are sensory sensitive humans who, if the sensitivities were decreased, the need for movement decreases as well, but that when the sensitivities are not decreased, when they are just more dysregulated from whatever they're sensitive to, that then they need more movement to come back from that.
00:43:21 Madeha
I do tell parents that when they see any like increase in like a child, all of a sudden is, they may be biting at baseline, but now they're doing a little more biting or they're moving a little more, I would say see the body as a whole, there may be something else that's triggering them. And they're compensating by increasing in their sensory seeking habits and something else. So kind of really tap into all the senses, you know, and make sure that the other senses don't just focus on one sense, we have eight. So really, you know, look into all of them and see if there's anything that's triggering them. So it is true.
00:43:55 Alyssa
Yeah. And we see it even like if we're on vacation, or we're out of our routine, and Sagey, my three -year -olds just more dysregulated, right? If we're in a group of people, etc. Hey, he's vestibular seeking, and so he will just want to like play games where he's flipping upside down, and he wants to spin around way more than usual when he is in those spaces versus when he's not, and he's in a more regulated state, his need for vestibular input also decreases. Fun to, that sounds fun to just like track. Well, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. Like I said, hanging out with OTs is my favorite hang. And I could dive into this jazz, and I think we could change so much with sensory supportive classrooms that would be really, really impactful. Again, not just for the kids, but for our classrooms as a whole, for those challenging behaviors we keep seeing, that it's a game changer. Thank you so much. Where can folks find you and connect with you?
00:44:59 Madeha
I am on Instagram. My Instagram handle is @seedsforspecialneeds. You can also email me at [email protected]. I am an upcoming author of sensory support children's books. My first book is almost done, launch date is the end of this year, for children who have sensory sensitivities to food textures. So if you follow me, you will get the update on that as well.
00:45:25 Alyssa
Yeah. Let us know when those go live. I'd love to check them out and share them out, send us a copy and check them out.
00:45:30 Madeha
Absolutely. Thank you.
00:45:32 Alyssa
Yeah. Thank you.
[Music]
00:45:40 Alyssa
I can't believe I'm about to like fly to Europe with two kids overnight and just like do Europe.
00:45:48 Rachel
It's not casual.
00:45:50 Alyssa
Yeah, it's not casual and at the time I was just like, of course, let's do this. like I am going for work so my travel and stuff's all paid for and I was like, let's do it. We actually had a bunch of credit card points. So yeah, it just felt like a no -brainer and now I'm like, what was I thinking? How is this actually going to be? What are all the logistics? Who's sleeping where? Even just like stroller, car seat, like I was like, oh my gosh.
00:46:15 Rachel
There's a lot. So Andrew and Kara took Charlie when he was a baby. And they did like a Euro tour, like not a casual.
00:46:28 Madeha
Yeah.
00:46:28 Rachel
Yeah. And I just think like obviously taking kids on a trip like that, it's like 10 ,000 times harder than going solo, but also like can be kind of rad.
00:46:39 Alyssa
Yeah. I'm just like curious. And it's interesting because I studied abroad in Austria when I was 15 and I've gone back a bunch and have really good friends there, and so we're doing a week in Austria and we just got an Airbnb, and I know Austria when it's me, or me and Zach or whatever, but I have never done it with kids. And so all of a sudden I was like, oh my gosh, I feel like a newbie. I mean, I speak German and so that's helpful, but outside of that, I was like, where do I – I don't even know where a playground is.
00:47:10 Rachel
Yeah, you've only done adult hangs.
00:47:14 Alyssa
Exactly. Exactly. I'm like, you want to go out? You want to go to a cafe? You want to whatever like I got you. But you want to go to a playground or do something kid related I haven't I really am like oh wow I didn't consider any of this until literally today I was like I have no itinerary in place whatsoever. So I'm gonna try and put that together this weekend. Also it's our first time flying with two kids.
00:47:38 Rachel
Yeah
00:47:39 Alyssa
So just some fun new stuff we get to embark on but I don't think Bean's sleep could get any worse than it is right now so bring it on airplane. Let's rock and roll.
00:47:50 Rachel
That's kind of like, now I've never taken my kids to Europe, but the longer I've parented, I've kind of been like, it's hard no matter where you are.
00:48:03 Alyssa
Legit.
00:48:03 Rachel
So I found myself like, mentally, I don't know, weighed down as I'm thinking about all the stuff that I need to prepare before we go camping tomorrow. And then I was just like, yeah, but I still have to do the same amount of work at home. Like it's different. But it's like -
00:48:22 Alyssa
I have to feed them, I have to whatever, yeah.
00:48:24 Rachel
It's like, let's just take our chaos into nature. And, you know?
00:48:30 Alyssa
Our chaos into nature. It's so real. I also am really looking forward to, Zach and I haven't both been fully off of work since like Christmas time. Where, because even after Beans was born, we were in the middle of a couple big things happening for Seed that I had to like weigh in on or sign contracts or whatever. And so I wasn't even like fully off in that time, like right after Beans was born. And then we had like Christmas time, but Sagey was home, that was two weeks postpartum, it was just nuts.
00:49:10 Rachel
Yeah, not chill.
00:49:11 Alyssa
Otherwise, anytime, yeah, exactly. Anytime I've been off, Zach hasn't been fully off. And I guess like in Maine at the beach, like still like tapped in and did a little bit of work. Zach had a meeting and we also were sick.
00:49:31 Rachel
Yeah.
00:49:31 Alyssa
And I was like, I'm looking forward to us like having time as the four of us.
00:49:37 Rachel
Yeah.
00:49:40 Alyssa
So that's exciting. And frankly, having time as the four of us where we're not in our house, because I find if we're off, but I'm home, I'm doing projects, I'm doing things around the house, I feel like there's all this stuff to do all the time. But if I'm at someplace else, I'm on in somebody else's house. I'm like, Yep, I have no house projects. You don't have to organize this basement.
00:50:01 Rachel
Yeah, I'm the same way. It's, I actually often will like take my kids somewhere away from the house in order for me to be fully present to them.
00:50:11 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:50:12 Rachel
Sometimes I'm like, we have this beautiful backyard, why do we never play in the backyard? Why do I always have to take the kids somewhere else to be outside? It's like because if we're home, I send them out and then I'm inside like doing stuff.
00:50:24 Alyssa
100%.
00:50:25 Rachel
And I can't just like hang out with them.
00:50:27 Alyssa
Even if I'm outside with them. I'm like organizing the toys in the backyard.
00:50:30 Rachel
I'm like, let me pick this up, or weed the garden, or I should just mow the lawn while you guys are out here. Just I'm going to go mow the lawn.
00:50:38 Alyssa
It was so interesting. Sage actually recently said to me, we were down in the basement at his workbench. And again, the basement. It's like, I'm throwin' in laundry while I'm down there, whatever.
00:50:48 Rachel
Oh, yeah.
00:50:48 Alyssa
And we're walking down the stairs, he said, Mom, can you just play with me and not do any other tasks? And I was like, thank you.
00:50:58 Rachel
Yeah.
00:50:59 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah, I can.
00:51:01 Rachel
It's so hard to give yourself permission to do that, at least for me.
00:51:07 Alyssa
So hard.
00:51:08 Rachel
I saw this thing the other day and it was like, feeling guilty while I make my kid a nutritious dinner because I'm not playing with them. Or like the flip side is like feeling guilty because I fed them chicken nuggets so I could like sit down and play with them. It was like such a great illustration of -
00:51:23 Alyssa
Classic lose -lose.
00:51:25 Rachel
It's impossible to live up to the standards. Like, yeah, you can't win. You're failing them in some way, no matter what you do, so.
00:51:36 Alyssa
You get to play a game of you can't win. Oh, man.
00:51:43 Rachel
It feels like that sometimes, though.
00:51:45 Alyssa
It really does. All right, who do we get to chat about today?
00:51:49 Rachel
We are talking about Madeha Ayub, Sensory Roots to Behavior.
00:51:56 Alyssa
Yeah, I love hanging out with an OT.
00:51:58 Rachel
Oh, this was a good episode. One thing that stuck out to me was one of the examples she gave of like the child in school who's supposed to be walking in a line, but they're like dragging their body down the wall. Like I could just picture it. And it's so easy through a behavior lens to look at that and be like, oh, that kid's not listening. They're not following direction. Their classmates are walking in the line and they're dragging themselves down the wall, you know?
00:52:30 Alyssa
Mm -hmm, 100%. And it made me think of that with like circle time or just existing, right? Like when we're in that behavior lens, and I was actually just giving a presentation recently to some families and a parent said, well, they're just like choosing to do this to their sibling. And I was like, tell me more about the choosing, like what does it look like? What do you notice? And then we talked about like what comes up before then. And I was like, all right, walk with me here. In order to choose something, they have to be in a regulated state. And in order to regulate, they have to know what it feels like in their body when they're getting dysregulated to be able to then tap into self -regulation and make a choice. And how often it looks on the surface like kids are choosing something, especially with like defiance, where they stare you in the face and it looks like they have self -control. And really, it's just a different external expression of dysregulation than a tantrum or a meltdown or or whatever, and how hard it is to step out of that behaviorist lens when it appears as though they're choosing a behavior.
00:53:54 Rachel
Yeah, and it does feel like that in the heat of the moment, and it can be so frustrating, especially when we look at capacity, and it's like, well, I know you can do this because you've done it before, so I know you can do this. That comes up for me sometimes. You know, and it's like, what's their capacity in this moment? Or like what barriers are preventing them from doing this thing that I know they can do because I've seen it.
00:54:28 Alyssa
Yeah, just this morning, you know, it's the beginning of school, we're in the first couple of weeks and Sagey this morning, it's the fourth day of the week, he goes to school Monday through Thursday, and it's day four. And by day four, he just has less. And he, this morning, was laying in his jammies and his sleep sack, and it was time to get dressed. And he said, I can't take off my sleep sack. In like that voice. And of course he can, he knows how to do it, all that jazz. And every step of it, like taking off his sleep sack, taking off his jammies, taking his legs out, of taking his arms out, going to the bathroom, putting on his clothes. Every step of it, he was like, I can't do it. And so I just stepped in and was like, oh, buddy, it's so hard when we get to Thursday and your brain has been working so hard all week. Would you like me to help you today? And I just like helped him take, I was like, you can just lay there, I'll unzip your sleep sack, I'll unzip your jammies, I'll carry you into the bathroom, I'll help you get dressed and really just saying like, it's okay to need help. Can he do all those tasks? 100%, he has that skillset. Can he always access them? No, and the more effort he would have put into doing those tasks, the less capacity he would have had for getting out the door and the rest of the day.
00:55:59 Rachel
Yeah, I mean, it's funny because sometimes it's so hard to see that reality in children, but I think about myself. So last night I'm doing bedtime and I'm like pissed. I just don't want to do it. You know?
00:56:13 Alyssa
Oh, I know.
00:56:16 Rachel
It was my second night of solo parenting because it's hunting season.
00:56:22 Alyssa
Sure. Your favorite.
00:56:25 Rachel
Honestly, it was relatively easy solo parenting because Nora has been away at outdoor school. It's just been Abel and I. And so a lot of it has been like fun and connecting and whatever. I got to bedtime last night and I was laying with him and he was just like talking my ear off. And I was just like, I don't want to be here. I really want to be like out on the couch. Um, binge watching.
00:56:50 Alyssa
I'm all done.
00:56:50 Rachel
I was just like, I'm over it. I don't want to be here. And just low capacity, right? Because I had been doing a bunch of logistical stuff solo. And then I woke up this morning to my period. And so I was like, that explains why I wanted no part of bedtime last night. I just didn't have the capacity for something that usually I can even like enjoy. Usually bedtime's not an issue for me. But last night, man, I just, I was done. And I didn't have somebody to tap out to, right? So it's just like, I'm done.
00:57:22 Alyssa
I hate that feeling.
00:57:23 Rachel
And I'm stuck.
00:57:24 Alyssa
I hate the trapped feeling.
00:57:26 Rachel
Same. Yeah.
00:57:29 Alyssa
Yeah. The access to capacity for a task is so huge, and I think when we can, and what I really took from this discussion with her was the ability to just step back and look at what is the environment doing for regulation, ours, theirs, all of it, and then looking at what are we seeing on the surface, right? Because anytime we're seeing those behaviors, it's a symptom of a need. And for us, for them, when I'm like, oh, I'm so done, or I need nap time, or I'm annoyed with them when they're just existing in the world, and those for me are all like, oh, this is a symptom of something going on beneath this. And so when we can look at how do we create sensory -friendly spaces, is. I think that often is only used in regards to people with autism. And I'm like, man, what if we all just started having sensory friendly spaces? What does that mean for you? When you walk into your house, how does it feel for you if there's clutter everywhere? What if it's put away in a basket and you just can't see it? Then what happens for you? For me, with that like Thomas the Train toy that Sagey has, it's like click, click, click, It is not available in the morning. You cannot use it. It is away in a closet because that is how I create a sensory -friendly space for me to be the mom I want to be or at least closer to it in the morning. Looking at that for all of us, what is the environment doing for our regulation and capacity? Then from there, being able to see like, okay, now this behavior makes sense or we're seeing less of this or does it matter if they're pushing against the wall to get that input they need? Maybe I'd prefer that over them going and hugging a friend too tight or pushing them down because they're looking for that feedback and sensory input.
00:59:29 Rachel
Yeah. I think the doesn't matter piece is big for me. When I get into a mindset where I'm like, I want to like assert my power over you to make you stop doing this thing. Then I'm like, does it really matter if they do this? And sometimes, yeah, it does matter. And I need the behavior to stop and whatever. But like, sometimes it doesn't, you know?
00:59:52 Alyssa
A hundred percent. Yeah. And it's just that we've like learned they're not supposed to do a certain thing or our fear of like, well, if they're doing this, then we're going to like lose control of the group of them, whether it's a classroom environment or my kids in general. At home, all that jazz, like that fear of, which really starts with the like false perception that you have control in the first place. And then that fear of losing it.
01:00:19 Rachel
Which reminds me of another part of this where she talked about how like part of creating sensory friendly spaces or like sensory friendly classrooms is like helping kids understand that everybody has different needs. And talking about how, yeah, if a couple of kids need a fidget in class, some teachers will push back and be like, well, now everybody's going to want a fidget. And it's like, OK, but if you can build that understanding of this child's body needs a fidget in order to be successful in class, and your body has different needs, so you don't need a fidget, that I think is so key for making this feel accessible. Because yeah, people are like, yeah, I can't have every kid on a fidget. I can't have every kid doing X, Y, or Z.
01:01:06 Alyssa
That's it. Yeah, it's the difference between fairness and equity.
01:01:09 Rachel
Right.
01:01:09 Alyssa
And fairness being everyone gets the same thing, equity is that everyone's needs are met. I think of this as things of like glasses. If I had a kid in my class who wore glasses, I wouldn't be like, yep, everyone gets a pair of glasses. It's like, no, that's what their body needs to thrive. And the same thing with sensory supports across the board, that like for me as a sound sensitive human, what I might need to thrive is going to be different than somebody who isn't sound sensitive or I'm not visually sensitive. So if there's clutter out and about, it doesn't bother me. But if you are visually sensitive, you might need to have that put away. When we're looking at supports for kids in class, whether it's a fidget, a certain kind of seat or time to spin on an ExerSaucer or one of my favorites is some sort of way for them to listen to a song or audio book where they're in control of the noise with headphones on. It's like, yeah, not everyone is going to have that device or access to it all the time, but the kids who need it for regulation and support will. And what I think is so cool is that from such a young age, kids can start to understand this. Sage is three and he'll tell you, oh yes, spinning helps my body, but it makes mama feel sick. And knows that there are certain things that we all need as our bodies work differently. And it's not that one's better than the other, we're just all different. And helping them figure out what do you need to feel calm? What helps your body feel calm? When it's really loud in the classroom, what happens inside? Does your heartbeat fast? Or is it still slow? Hmm, let's play a game and see how this feels. and helping them tune in to their body and their needs and not just like, oh yeah, that kid gets it because it's helpful for them, but also what's helpful for you?
01:03:01 Rachel
Yeah.
01:03:03 Alyssa
I will live on that soapbox.
01:03:05 Rachel
I mean, it feels kind of common sense, right? It's like the glasses example like brings it, I feel like, like clarifies the issue. I mean, we, my kids are a sensory mismatch. So we have a lot of conversations about why they have different needs. And, you know, I think part of what's tricky too is like, we're very much in a, that's not fair kind of a season. And, or like Nora saying that Abel's my favorite child.
01:03:44 Alyssa
Sure.
01:03:45 Rachel
Love saying that. And I'm like, the same way that I maybe hold a boundary around sound in the car because he's overwhelmed is the same reason why you get to stay up later and jump on the trampoline longer than he does. The same way that you need movement, he needs quiet. And like building that, right? And it's exhausting.
01:04:13 Alyssa
And I think for kids who are really filled up with quality time and connection, that anytime they're not receiving that, it can feel like, ugh, somebody else's needs are getting met and not mine. It can feel like a leaky cup. And Sagey will say, like, I don't get to have anything in this house. And it's when I'm helping Beans with something or paying attention to her. And we actually had a small win the other day that was like, okay, there are so many moments that are not like this.
01:04:47 Rachel
There's a lot of small losses.
01:04:49 Alyssa
Correct. Lot of losses over here. But we had a small one the other day where he started off the day and said, Mama, will you show me how to play with her? I don't know how to share this with her. And I was like, oh my gosh, yes. Up until this point, it's been, I don't want to share this with her. I don't want her in my space. And we don't do any forced sharing. What I do tell him is that he learned so much of what he knows by listening to us and watching us and how we talk to him and what we do with him. And she's now looking to us to see, hmm, what do I do when I'm mad? What do I do when I'm sad? How are people going to respond to me? What do I do if I want to turn with a toy? And she's watching us and seeing how we respond to her and learning those things. And so when we are screaming in her face, no, you can't be here, then there's a chance that when she can talk, she might scream in your face, no, you can't be here. So what we show her is what she'll likely learn to do. And that includes for us, mistakes and repair, that maybe you scream in her face and then later you come and say, I'm really sorry I screamed in your face. I was feeling overwhelmed. I needed some space and didn't want to share with you right then. And that those things are all okay too. It's not a perfection model over here by any means, but really looking at that he is modeling this. And so we've been talking about this so much. And in the moment he'll say, I don't want her to learn what I'm doing. And we're like, okay, well, do you need help with something else? So for him to start off with this space of like, help me, I don't know how to share with her. I don't know how to play with her with this thing right now. I was like, yes, okay.
01:06:54 Rachel
Yeah, that's for sure a win. We, in the same vein as repair and apology, sometimes my kids will, when they're in conflict with each other, will spit out an apology in order to just move on with the situation. It's like the least genuine. It's like, I'm sorry, you know? And I'm like, OK. Everybody needs to take some time. But one thing that I'm working on building.
01:07:19 Alyssa
You sound sorry. You're right, you sound really sorry.
01:07:21 Rachel
Yeah, you sound so remorseful. I can tell that you really care about my feelings right now. One thing that I'm working on, and not just in their relationship with each other, but also relationship with peers. We also have never forced apology, but in school they've learned that saying sorry is a quick way to move on the situation. And that's not how I want them to approach it. And so one thing that we've been working on is I've just been saying checking in with each other. After the rage cloud has started to move away, I've encouraged my kids, not forced them, just say, hey, I wonder if you would be ready to go check in and talk about what happened. Of course, there's resistance to it, especially for Nora, who embarrassment is a big thing for her.
01:08:11 Alyssa
Or even doing the wrong thing.
01:08:14 Rachel
Correct. That's where some of that, he's your favorite child, thing comes up, right? Because I'll be like, hey, I noticed this happened, and she'll be like, do you ever talk to Able like this? There's all these layers, but one thing that we are working on, and it's often around there sensory needs. One thing that we are working on is checking in with one another after, instead of just like spitting out an apology and then like running away from each other.
01:08:41 Alyssa
Yeah. I think what's huge that you noted is the checking in when the storm cloud has settled, when kids are regulated. This is like a common trend in childcare right now is we're not doing forced apologies, but we're doing forced check -ins and it just replaced the apology where A, its forced, and B, we're doing it too soon. We're not waiting until they're in a regulated state to do it. And so in the moment, it ends up being the same thing. Or they like hurt that kid again because they're too dysregulated to be posted.
01:09:10 Rachel
Yeah, because they don't want to. They don't want to check in. They're not giving a crap about checking in right now.
01:09:16 Alyssa
Correct, it's for us then, not for them.
01:09:18 Rachel
It's so, that's exactly it. It's so that we feel like we've done our due diligence to quote, teach them how to navigate conflict. So one thing, like, after my kids have a conflict, they have two very different needs. Abel needs to go play by himself. Nora needs to talk about it. And she needs to talk smack about Abel to me. You know, like, she needs to, like, air her grievances about how this was such BS.
01:09:44 Alyssa
It's like auditory processing.
01:09:46 Rachel
And all the things that she experienced at the hands of Abel that were unfair and uncalled for. And I have learned that that needs to happen before she can approach him again and have any sort of productive outcome, right? But it's all a learning process, and it changes as they get older, because when she was younger it was easier for her to just do a check -in, and she didn't get – her ego didn't play such a part. And now like she's changing and she's maturing and she needs me in a different way.
01:10:23 Alyssa
And as she gets older, he gets older. So she's going to have her own age biases of like what he should be able to do or how he should be able to show up. Whereas like when he was a baby, she may have been like, yeah, he's a baby or he's one or can't even talk or whatever. And now she's like, he's five. And this is my expectation of how he should be able to engage. And, you know, we're not the only ones with age biases.
01:10:48 Rachel
No, and like hers are so valid too, because she was five when Abel was a baby.
01:10:53 Alyssa
Yeah.
01:10:53 Rachel
And the stuff that I expected from her.
01:10:57 Alyssa
Sure.
01:10:59 Rachel
Never could Abel ever, you know, and it's just like, I, that is just the reality. Like, that is the reality. And I talk a lot about how Nora challenges me, but like that girl had her shit together when she was five. That's all I'm going to say.
01:11:17 Alyssa
She is very mature and responsible and really self -aware and socially aware.
01:11:26 Rachel
She is. And I'm the person that she breaks down to, so I get all of her dysregulated crap where I'm like, come on. But she, nobody else gets that. Everybody else gets this very put together, mature, tender hearted, empathetic human.
01:11:43 Alyssa
She's so lovely to be around.
01:11:45 Rachel
Like, she is so fun to hang out with. And so I have to then be like, okay, yeah, I have to deal with her crap, but like, that's okay.
01:11:52 Alyssa
I would literally let her babysit. Like, she could.
01:11:55 Rachel
Oh, I've left her home alone with Abel.
01:11:57 Alyssa
Yeah. She could come babysit my kids and I'd be like, yeah, they're in great hands.
01:12:01 Rachel
Like she can navigate conflict res. She can coach other kids through conflict res.
01:12:06 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. And then scream at you about how dumb life is. Yeah. So like,
01:12:11 Rachel
Exactly. And Cody and I have these conversations where we're like, she is such a lovely human, and she is such a pain in the ass. And those things can coexist.
01:12:20 Alyssa
A hundred percent. Two things can be true. Thanks Brene.
01:12:22 Rachel
I feel the same way about Cody. I love you more than life itself, and you're such a pain in the ass.
01:12:27 Alyssa
Correct. Same. Same. Well, I'm excited to see Madeha's also doing a workshop in the Summit this year. Yeah.
01:12:41 Rachel
I didn't know that.
01:12:43 Alyssa
So the teachers can really dive into the sensory supportive classrooms and how we're creating them and what that looks like, and I'm really, really jazzed for that workshop to be available in March for folks. If you're new here, we do a Seed Teacher Summit every March. It's a virtual summit, so it's accessible for all, and it's free for a period of time. It's free forever for our Seedcert teachers and programs, but for the general public, it's free for a period of time so that you can dive in and get some really incredible workshops and information, 18 workshops with 18 different practitioners and experts. And we'll have one from Madeha, so I'm really excited.
01:13:40 Rachel
Yeah, that's awesome.
01:13:46 Alyssa
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