Thriving Through Grief with Brandi Sellerz-Jackson

00:00:00    Alyssa

You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today we get to chat about thriving through grief. I got to hang out with Brandi Sellerz-Jackson. She's a storyteller, birth and postpartum doula, and the creator of Not So Private Parts. Initially created as a women's lifestyle blog, Not So Private Parts has evolved into a resource removing the shame and stigma surrounding women's issues. Sellerz -Jackson is the co -founder of Moms In Color, a black mom collective centered around celebrating diversity in the motherhood space. She is also the senior manager of social media for Ergobaby, a leading brand in baby wearing and attachment parenting. She has been featured in Oprah Daily, USA Today, Essence, and Mother, among other outlets. Sellerz-Jackson lives in Pasadena, California with her husband John and and their three boys, Jax, Jedi, and Jupiter. I loved chatting with Brandi because we got to talk about the real, real of like, what is this really like to move through grief and how grief shows up at different stages in parenthood? I think we often think of grief only in certain times, like if we lose someone we love, but grief happens often. When we grieve the life we had before when we had a second kiddo or third or when we grieve the life we had before kids or when we grieve the different parenting stages of longing for those early days or as kids transition into high school or middle school or go to college. Grief shows up all the time for us and learning to move through it and parent through it is a necessary skillset for being able to show up. All right folks, let's dive in. 

 

00:01:58    Alyssa

Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together. 

 

00:02:19    Alyssa

How are you, Brandi? 

 

00:02:21    Brandi

I'm good. How are you? 

 

00:02:23    Alyssa

I'm doing pretty well. Yeah. Jumping from one interview to the next today. It's an interview kind of day. 

 

00:02:33    Brandi

That's how it is, isn't it? 

 

00:02:35    Alyssa

That's how it is. Brandi, do you have kids? 

 

00:02:40    Brandi

I have three. 

 

00:02:41    Alyssa

Sweet. How old are your kiddos? 

 

00:02:43    Brandi

Three boys. The oldest is 17. 

 

00:02:47    Alyssa

Okay, sweet. 

 

00:02:49    Brandi

About to graduate in literally two weeks. 

 

00:02:52    Alyssa

How are you feeling? 

 

00:02:55    Brandi

Ask me this fall. 

 

00:02:59    Alyssa

Sure. Sure. When they're not under your roof. 

 

00:03:02    Brandi

Yeah. Because, I mean, right now I'm just in, I'm in logistics mode. 

 

00:03:08    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:03:09    Brandi

I'm in planning mode and I'm in like, okay, we need to move him in on the 12th and then we have this amount of days beforehand and then that's where I am right now. 

 

00:03:24    Alyssa

Yes. 

 

00:03:25    Brandi

Because of that, planning Brandi is very different than feeling Brandi. 

 

00:03:33    Alyssa

100 % relatable. 

 

00:03:34    Brandi

So that's kind of where I am right now. I'm in that. So I've been like ask me when he's out how I feel about it because right now I'm just in I'm in like planning and logistics and okay the boy the younger boys are gonna are gonna go with us because I really want to make sure that I have the emotional space and I hold space for my oldest and all the feelings that me and his dad and my husband may feel like, and I I just know that my middle, he is like, he emotes. And I wanna make it harder for him than it has to be. 

 

00:04:15    Alyssa

Sure, being able to give that space. 

 

00:04:18    Brandi

Exactly. And my middle, his personality is so all -encompassing. And his emotions are also all -encompassing. 

 

00:04:30    Alyssa

Totally. 

 

00:04:31    Brandi

I just, I want to, I think it would be better once he fully understands that, okay, he's going, but he's coming back. 

 

00:04:40    Alyssa

For sure. 

 

00:04:41    Brandi

Right now, we don't really understand college. You know, he's in second grade and then the youngest is in TK. They don't really understand that. They just know that he's leaving. 

 

00:04:50    Alyssa

Yeah, yeah. 

 

00:04:52    Brandi

And so, I think once they realize, oh, he comes back, coming back, not leaving forever, I think it'll be a lot easier. 

 

00:05:04    Alyssa

Well, and I think it's such a good point. So I have four brothers and there's 13 years between the oldest and the youngest in our family. 

 

00:05:12    Brandi

It's 12 between the oldest and youngest. 

 

00:05:14    Alyssa

Yeah. Okay. So Eric, my brother, Eric went to college when my little brother, Zach went to kindergarten. And it was, I feel like for our household, my recollection of it, really having what I wish I would have had, or the language I wish I would have had around it, was around the ability and processes to grieve the family life that we'd known, in order to create space for this next iteration. I feel kind of similarly to every time we added a kid to the family, where it's like, Yeah, the family's growing, we're adding somebody, this is exciting. And also there's a grief of what was to make space for what is now in the new iteration. And I feel like you're entering into one of those seasons. 

 

00:06:13    Brandi

That's exactly what it is. I mean, it's, I'm interested to see how they, the younger kids move through this, because, you know, Jedi, all he knows is Jaxon being there. That's all he knows. That's his reality. 

 

00:06:30    Alyssa

Totally. 

 

00:06:30    Brandi

And I think him now being the older brother, like he is the older brother while Jax is not here. It's going to be interesting for him. And so, yeah, you know, it's, that's kind of where we are, but yeah, the oldest is 17. The middle is eight and youngest is five. And so we're just, yeah. And it's funny because literally as one is going to college, the other one is starting the first day of kindergarten. 

 

00:07:06    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:07:06    Brandi

And it's just so funny to me. I'm like, wow. Talk about firsts. 

 

00:07:15    Alyssa

If you could look back and tell Brandi who's sending Jax to kindergarten, something that now you tell Brandi who's sending Jupiter to kindergarten, what would you tell her? 

 

00:07:30    Brandi

It goes by so fast. 

 

00:07:33    Alyssa

It's cliche, but it's true. 

 

00:07:35    Brandi

It's so true. It's like the days are absolutely long. They're so long. They are painfully long. 

 

00:07:43    Alyssa

Yeah, correct. I have a five -month -old right now who's not sleeping, so they're literally 24 hours. 

 

00:07:48    Brandi

Literally 24 hours. And you have someone who needs you for everything. And my husband and I joke, but I mean this. You literally have to teach children everything, everything. They come here knowing nothing and also knowing so much too. 

 

00:08:17    Alyssa

Totally. Yeah, that resonates. 

 

00:08:19    Brandi

Like they know who they are. They know who they are when they're that little like one, two, three years old, four years old. they know who they are. They come here knowing who they are and they also know nothing. I have to teach them everything. I mean, I remember my oldest, he was warming something in the oven and we told him, we said, so the container part on the top is plastic. You can't put that in the oven. And I don't know if he just, he's one of those kids who's like, I know what I'm talking about. Okay, mom and dad, what do you know? So he, of course, puts it in the oven, heats it up, and it's in one of those like glass casserole things, but the top of it is like plastic and like silicone or something. And we get home, he was babysitting his younger brother. We get home, and they're outside on the porch, and the door is open, and the dog is, like, on the front porch, too, and we're like, what's happening here? Is everything okay? And he's like, sheepishly, of course, he's like, I put the casserole dish in the oven. 

 

00:09:46    Alyssa

Turns out you were right. 

 

00:09:48    Brandi

Turns out you were right. It does not do well in the oven, and it smoked up the whole house. and nothing's on fire, everyone's fine, but turns out you were right. They don't know, they have no idea. And it's up to us to input and feed them information. And sometimes they take it, sometimes they don't. 

 

00:10:17    Alyssa

Well, sometimes they'll take it in different ways. Sometimes they'll take your word for it, but sometimes the information is gonna be through trial. 

 

00:10:25    Brandi

Exactly, and that's the thing. It's like, okay, so would I have rather him taken my advice-- 

 

00:10:33    Alyssa

100 % 

 

00:10:34    Brandi

It melts. It, you put under heat it melts. Would I'd rather him just taking it instead of not taking it because now I have to hire someone to come and clean our oven because there is plastic melted on every surface of the oven. We had to hire a task rabbit to come and he brought in his like heavy duty artillery with like this like huge machine that like, does this stuff and he got it out. But it was just like, would I rather him listen? Sure. However, he now knows. 

 

00:11:09    Alyssa

Yes. 

 

00:11:09    Brandi

No, he knows now. He's like, of all things, don't put plastic in the oven. 

 

00:11:15    Alyssa

And you know, it's key here, Brandi. And this is something I think that many of us in parenthood have had to or are unlearning and relearning from our own childhood is that acknowledgement that he knows now, right? So when you came home, you didn't have to add a punishment. 

 

00:11:34    Brandi

No, absolutely not. 

 

00:11:35    Alyssa

He already learned-- if the goal is he learns this lesson, check, learned. 

 

00:11:41    Brandi

He learned it. And that's the thing, too. It's like there's no, we will never punish our kids or talk down to them or make them feel less than if they're learning, when they're learning. And again, not their fault. They don't know. 

 

00:12:01    Alyssa

Correct. 

 

00:12:01    Brandi

You would be surprised at the things that kids don't know because they don't know. 

 

00:12:07    Alyssa

They're living for the first time. 

 

00:12:09    Brandi

I always say it's their first time here. 

 

00:12:13    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:12:14    Brandi

It's their first time here. 

 

00:12:15    Alyssa

I, you know, I think we could say this is true for all of us, especially in different stages, right? Like I think of entering into motherhood and how like there was a time where it was my first time here, you know, and learning all the different things, whether it's we have someone in my life who, and I had like passed my baby off and I, I grew up like in a huge family and like the village sense I've been around kids my whole life. Like if, my mom ran a home childcare program, like just been around my whole life. So there are a lot of things that for me at this point feel really innate just because of exposure. But I hand my baby off and I was like, she has a poopy diaper. I'm going to go help my three -year -old or something. Can you just change her diaper and whatever? And I come back and there's literally poop everywhere. This is where I found out this human had never changed a poop diaper before, which for me was just like I had done by the time I was five. 

 

00:13:13    Brandi

You're like, I know how to do this. 

 

00:13:15    Alyssa

And it was one of those, I was like, oh, they're learning. It's her first time. But just all of us in every different stage. And I think this is a good segue into what I wanted to chat about today. And that like, as you're about to enter a first time stage, right? Where Jax goes to college and you're gonna have a baby in college. You're not gonna have any more kids in pre -K and your household's gonna shift, and it'll be your first time. And as you're going into that, as you're going into this season, we talked a little bit about grief already, but I'm wondering what your plans are for navigating this season of change and transition and grief and allowing. 

 

00:14:11    Brandi

I think, well, that's the key right there, is allowing. I write in my book On Thriving about 'the bridge of and', and how you don't have to choose an emotion. You don't have to choose this thing of like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited. This is so great, and only hold space for the good. You can also hold space for the 'and' of this is so exciting that he's leaving and going off into the world he got into the college that he wanted, AND, I'm really gonna miss my baby. 

 

00:14:49    Alyssa

100 %.

 

00:14:50    Brandi

AND. You know I'm so excited that dreams are coming true AND I'm really a little nervous because he's 17 and he's just gonna be out there. 

 

00:15:12    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:15:13    Brandi

And I have to trust that what his father and I have put in to him is enough. 

 

00:15:23    Alyssa

Oh, so frigging hard. That like, I'm so proud of who you are and the skills you have and the wings you've grown and the fear of like, are the roots steady enough, right? That's the thing, right? Like we give them roots and wings and roots to come home to and wings to fly away and to grow and be their own human. I think it's the hardest part of parenting is that allowing of the interdependence piece when they're born so codependent. And I think that's the hardest part of parenting that they're born so codependent that you're right, they come out, they don't know how to do anything. And they're so reliant on us for all the things. It's so physical, it's so constant. And it's safe when we are there providing it. 

 

00:16:21    Brandi

Yeah, it is. And it's safe for everyone. 

 

00:16:24    Alyssa

Right. 

 

00:16:25    Brandi

Right? Because now what I'm having to do is shift the way I parent. 

 

00:16:31    Alyssa

Tell me more about that. 

 

00:16:33    Brandi

So, you know, we have three at three different stages, At any given moment, I'm talking about dating, to, Jedi, it's okay if some people are having a bad day, to, Jupiter stop putting that in your mouth, buddy. 

 

00:16:51    Alyssa

Peas don't go in your ears. 

 

00:16:52    Brandi

Don't eat dirt. Why are you licking the wall? Okay. Great. 

 

00:16:57    Alyssa

So real. 

 

00:16:59    Brandi

Everything's fine. Everything's fine. I'm having to go through these three different conversations and three different parenting styles. One, because they're all different. They're so different. And the way I parent Jax is very much so different than what I parent Jedi. It's just different. They're different people. 

 

00:17:16    Alyssa

Yeah. I think that that's so crucial and what a gift for them, for you to recognize that it's not them who has to shift to you, but that you shift to them. 

 

00:17:27    Brandi

Yeah. Yeah. I think parents get in a lot of trouble with trying to use the same model for each kid. I'm like, you're getting frustrated because this kid is a different kid. And what worked on the other kid and worked for the other kid, it's not gonna work for this kid because they're not hearing you. 

 

00:17:40    Alyssa

It's what we wrote about in Tiny Humans, Big Emotions, we say so many times, like, it's not one size fits all. I can't give you a script to use on all your kids, because it won't work with all your kids. It won't feel connecting for all of them. One kid might fly off the handle when you say that and the other kid is like, oh, I feel seen. 

 

00:17:59    Brandi

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so they're different. But then also, too, there are different stages. So, like, with Jupiter, I don't know, like, it's interesting, he's five, he's very dependent. He's dependent and very independent also, like, he loves to get up and, like, make food and, you know, it's food, you know, but he takes so much pride in it, right? And he needs us for a lot because he's five. Jax not so much, he's 17. His needs look completely different. He wants to talk, that's what he wants to do. He wants us to listen. 

 

00:18:49    Alyssa

He needs availability, like emotional availability. 

 

00:18:53    Brandi

That's what he wants. He doesn't really need us necessarily like physically in the way of like, and managing like, okay, did you clean this? Did you do this? He doesn't really need us to do that like Jupiter does. Like he needs us to make sure he doesn't empty out the entire thing of baking soda into the bowl and the entire thing of vanilla into the, he needs us for that. Jax doesn't need us for that, but Jax does need us to listen and to hear him and to make sure that he feels heard. It's just different. It's a different thing. And so what I'm discovering is that, you know, for him, he also needs us to back off, you know, share our thoughts on the matter, our opinions on the matter. But he doesn't really need us to, we also have to be okay with if he disagrees. And we have to be okay if he's like, I think I'm gonna do this. And that's weird. 

 

00:20:06    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:20:08    Brandi

Because there was a time that he kind of had to do, you know, had to follow... 

 

00:20:14    Alyssa

You don't have to want to get into your car seat, but you're gonna get into your car seat. 

 

00:20:18    Brandi

You're gonna get into your car seat. You gotta do that because it's safe. And we know more in this regard. 

 

00:20:24    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:20:25    Brandi

In this regard, it's safe. I know you don't want, I know you want to ride on top of the car. It sounds amazing and riveting, but however, can't do that. But Jax now at his stage, in our stage in parenting him, it's, okay, this is also part of him learning. It's the plastic in the oven. 

 

00:20:48    Alyssa

Yeah, exactly. 

 

00:20:50    Brandi

Part of it. And some things, I think the biggest thing that's been hard for us, or for me sometimes, and also for his Virgo dad is some things he's gonna have to learn by observing and by trying. 

 

00:21:05    Alyssa

And making mistakes. 

 

00:21:07    Brandi

Making mistakes. Yeah. He's gonna learn that. And we've gotta be okay with that. 

 

00:21:14    Alyssa

So hard, it's so vulnerable. 

 

00:21:16    Brandi

So hard, it's so hard, it's so hard. But at the same time, it's so necessary because how do we learn? 

 

00:21:24    Alyssa

Yeah, it's in that process, which you talk about in the like, how to thrive while grieving piece. And I'm thinking about you in this season and how like, like, that's gonna be so pertinent that work of grieving the loss of the family structure in your household that you've known. And.. 

 

00:21:45    Brandi

I mean, forever. I mean, Jaxon, we had Jaxon in our early 20s.  I'm in my forties. And in some regards, we've grown up together. 

 

00:21:58    Alyssa

Totally. 

 

00:21:59    Brandi

So all that I know is Jaxon being here. And so him going off, I'm like, oh, wait, like I can so see. I remember, you know, he was two weeks overdue when I was pregnant with him. Very much so like his personality. He comes when he wants to come. 

 

00:22:19    Alyssa

Same with my kids. 

 

00:22:21    Brandi

You know, he's on his own time schedule. And I remember going into his nursery and just looking. I was very pregnant. I was so over it. I was tired. I was exhausted. I was like, I'm supposed to have a baby in that crib right now. Or I'm supposed to have a baby in that bouncer right now. 

 

00:22:38    Alyssa

I so know the feeling. 

 

00:22:40    Brandi

I'm supposed to be rocking my baby in that rocker that my mom just bought me. And I can't, I'm not doing it because they're still on the inside. Are they ever going to come out? 

 

00:22:49    Alyssa

I'm going to be pregnant forever. 

 

00:22:50    Brandi

Yeah, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be pregnant forever. It's gonna happen, that's what's happening. And sure enough, I remember just sitting in there just crying and be like, is this ever gonna happen? Like, and I don't even think we were Googling at that moment, because it was 2000. I don't think I Googled, can you be pregnant forever? But I wanted to, like, just asking for a friend. And sure enough, you know, I can see myself when he leaves going into his room, probably looking at his bed, looking at his desk, and feeling the same thing of he's where... we.... he's usually here and he's not. He's out in the world at college, so. 

 

00:23:42    Alyssa

And the unknown of like, what does this next chapter look like? How does it unfold? What does relationship look like as it unfolds? And one of the things I love so much - 

 

00:23:54    Brandi

Like an adult child. 

 

00:23:55    Alyssa

Exactly. And one of the things I love so much about your work is that you share that the way to joy and healing is and will always be through. 

 

00:24:05    Brandi

Through. 

 

00:24:06    Alyssa

This has been my mantra since labor. The only way out of this is through it. And it has been, and it has carried with me truly through like contractions to hard early days to tantrums in the grocery store to, you know, like the only way out of this is through it. And because damn, when you're in it, that urge to just make it go away, this discomfort is so strong. It's so strong. 

 

00:24:44    Brandi

It's so strong and it's human. It's like, who wants to feel pain? Who wants to feel discomfort? Who wants to be that person's like, you know what? I'm so excited about this discomfort that I'm gonna feel. It's so great. 

 

00:25:00    Alyssa

Can't wait to feel guilt. Wow, that sounds so great. Disappointment, sign me up. 

 

00:25:05    Brandi

I mean, it just sounds so exciting to feel like there's loss. It just feels like, ooh, gets my motor running. And I mean, who wants to feel that? But at the same time, the only way through is through. There's no diverting it. And I've seen so many people substitute their feelings or substitute things into their lives so they don't have to feel it...

 

00:25:38    Alyssa

To try and stop feeling it, which really just numbs it. 

 

00:25:41    Brandi

It just numbs it. But the thing is, is that it's gonna be there. It's still gonna be there. 

 

00:25:47    Alyssa

Yes, when the numbing goes away, when that wears off, you're still gonna be in it. 

 

00:25:53    Brandi

You're still in it. You're still in it. I mean, I felt it with my mother when she passed away. I felt it, you know, in anything that I've had to grieve. This feeling, yes, I really don't wanna feel this. But the thing about grief is that it is the most unwelcome house guest ever, and I give an example of this in the book, but it's just there, and it's just like hanging out on your couch and eating popcorn, waiting, just sitting there, hanging out. And they will continue to hang out there until you deal with it and sit with it. That's all it wants, is for you to sit with it. 

 

00:26:38    Alyssa

Yeah. Acknowledgement. It wants to feel seen just like any other part of us. 

 

00:26:43    Brandi

Right. Any other emotion. All of our emotions want a day in the sun. They want to feel seen. And grief is no different. And homegirl will just sit there on the couch waiting on you like, so we going to do this or not? 

 

00:26:57    Alyssa

Yeah. Cause I'm real patient. I'll be right here. 

 

00:27:00    Brandi

Oh my gosh. Grief is so patient. That chick is patient. She's like, I got all the time in the world. 

 

00:27:09    Alyssa

It's so true. So when we're in it, when they're in the grief of it all and say, we're like, all right, I'm going to allow this, I'm going to be with it. What are some things that allow us to be in it in a supportive way where we're not consumed by it? 

 

00:27:33    Brandi

Hmm. What are some ways that allow us to sit with it where we're not consumed? You know, I would say for me, the biggest thing that helped me through was community. I don't believe grief is something that we should do alone. 

 

00:27:52    Alyssa

Agreed, I think it's often something we do alone. 

 

00:27:55    Brandi

Do alone. We usually feel like a burden and we don't wanna bother anyone. However, it's not for us to do alone. Grief is one of those things that all of us will get a turn in, all of us. I mean - 

 

00:28:12    Alyssa

Many, many turns. 

 

00:28:14    Brandi

Many turns. You get grief and you get grief. And-- 

 

00:28:17    Alyssa

Oprah's here. 

 

00:28:25    Brandi

But we're not supposed to do it alone. I think community is one of the biggest things you can offer to yourself. One of the ways I say that, because a lot of people are like, okay, community, but how? How? Especially for me, I live in Los Angeles, so everyone lives far apart. We're all spread out. It's not like a close -knit - 

 

00:28:50    Alyssa

Yeah, butter from the neighbor, milk and eggs and whatever. 

 

00:28:54    Brandi

Oh, yeah. And I'm lucky. I live in Pasadena. So I know all of my neighbors and all that but it isn't like oh, hey, let's go, you know you know practically speaking I share how if you are, if you know someone who's in the depths of grief, don't ask them what they need, because they don't know. That's an annoying question. They don't know what they need. You can always start with the first things of food, because food is always healing and nourishing, but also too, maybe be that person that puts together like a little network of people. I call it the mycelium network where it's like maybe three people, four people, five people, whatever, where you all take turns checking in on that person, texting them, dropping off someone doing a meal train, someone dropping off food, someone, okay, I'm gonna text them today, you text them tomorrow. I'm gonna swing by there today, you swing by there tomorrow. you know, there's ways to figure it out. And I think that's a practical way to hold space for people in grief, but then also to thrive in it. But community is a big one. 

 

00:30:09    Alyssa

I love that. I think, wanna break that down a little bit. We know that so many of us didn't grow up witnessing grief in community. 

 

00:30:21    Brandi

No. 

 

00:30:22    Alyssa

And there was so much shame around grieving and feeling sad and taking that space to do so wasn't something that was modeled for so many of us. It was pull yourself up by your bootstraps, keep moving. Like there are worse things, keep it trucking. 

 

00:30:41    Brandi

You're so lucky. 

 

00:30:43    Alyssa

Yeah, count your blessings. Find that silver lining, right? Like things to be grateful for. And so for a lot of us, it feels really new, this practice of being with and in something hard and then even just for ourselves, and then to do it in community to allow that vulnerability. I experienced postpartum depression this time. And with my first, it was the opposite. I was like on a postpartum high, like this is the best thing ever. And in this last pregnancy, I experienced prenatal depression and then fed into postpartum depression. And my best friend at one point postpartum, and she was like, Hey, I just am, I'm coming over. And I was like, Oh no, like, it's fine. I have like a bunch of crap going on today. And she was like, totally, you don't have to shift anything. I'm just going to come be with you through it. She was like, took the day off work. And I like kept pushing her away. And then she just showed up at my house and she just sat next to me and we had lunch together. And she was, she worked from my like home office and just was nearby, right? it just was a presence. And at one point I just started to cry and she held me, but I needed to be like forced into the community piece. And I think that it's so common for so many of us that it's so vulnerable, it's so vulnerable. 

 

00:32:13    Brandi

It is, and a lot of us feel like you said, that you feel like you don't wanna burden, you don't wanna - 

 

00:32:20    Alyssa

I don't wanna ruin your good day with my crappy mood. 

 

00:32:24    Brandi

The thing is, is what are we there for? 

 

00:32:27    Alyssa

No, totally. In a rational brain, totally. 

 

00:32:30    Brandi

If not, if not for support of each other. 

 

00:32:34    Alyssa

And if she said to me, I mean, gosh, I've done the same for her in seasons for her, where like I've just shown up and been there through the messy hard and she never felt like a burden to me and never felt like too much. Yeah, but I think so many of us have that narrative that the community piece allowing that empathy and compassion is the antidote to shame. Thanks, Brené, for that work. 

 

00:33:00    Brandi

It absolutely is. It's inviting people in. Come on in, come on in. We're not supposed to do this alone. I think it digs us into such a deep, deep, dark hole. 

 

00:33:15    Alyssa

I think we also try to do our way out of the hard. And I've been thinking about this right now, just in the context of our world and conflicts and wars and climate and so many challenges and issues. And you can at any given point be exposed to it, right?  Anytime. And I think for a lot of us, it can feel helpless. And like, you can't, there's not enough that you could do ever, but then it's like, okay, what can I do in this desire to do something, to get that dopamine hit, to feel like you can do your way out of the hard. 

 

00:34:07    Brandi

And there's just, 

 

00:34:08    Alyssa

Yeah, 

 

00:34:08    Brandi

There's no way. And I think that's part of that substitution piece. 

 

00:34:13    Alyssa

Exactly, yeah. And I think sometimes it's sharing on social media, sometimes it's gossiping about somebody, Sometimes, and it's this idea of like, I can do my way out of this. I can do something that will make me stop feeling this way. 

 

00:34:28    Brandi

No. And some of the best thing probably we can do is sit with the collective grief of it. This world is in grief right now. It's in grief, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep grief. And I believe that when we sit with that and we see each other's grief, we see it. We see how it's affecting our neighbor. You know, the person sitting across from us, even if they don't even understand and they don't know it. You know, I think of 2020. 2020, I think we're still digging ourselves out of-- 

 

00:35:11    Alyssa

100%. 

 

00:35:12    Brandi

--the grief of what we all experienced. Many people lost people. People lost experiences. 

 

00:35:23    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:35:23    Brandi

You know, I think of the kids that, you know, those two years of not being in school, they lost experiences. 

 

00:35:33    Alyssa

And did experience high -anxiety households and culture. 

 

00:35:37    Brandi

Oh my gosh. Absolutely. Absolutely. And also to see, I can only imagine for kids seeing their parents experience something that they've never experienced before. Like we've never experienced a pandemic. 

 

00:35:53    Alyssa

Right. 

 

00:35:54    Brandi

Like ever. Our parents had never experienced it. 

 

00:35:58    Alyssa

We were a clean slate. 

 

00:35:59    Brandi

We were a clean slate. We had never been here before. And then all of a sudden, I don't know if your kids are at home or homeschooled or public school or whatever, but to go from your routine of school to all of a sudden, everyone's at home. Everyone's at home. I'll never forget when here in LA, they shut everything down. It was like-- that. Everything shut down. Um, and my husband, he was like, okay, so I'm going to go and get rice?

 

00:36:39    Alyssa

Question mark? 

 

00:36:42    Brandi

And maybe some flour? And some whatever I can find. And I remember going to Trader Joe's, there was nothing left at Trader Joe's. There was only like popsicles and all the stuff that nobody wanted, like all the weird funky flavors of things that no one ever buys, like, you know, peanut butter mozzarella or something, you know...

 

00:37:08    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

00:37:10    Brandi

No one wants that, Trader Joe's, no one wants that. And I remember we ended up going to this one small little market that is just so small that no one thought of to go to, and we found things. But I think of that, you know, we, it was our first time being there, we had never been there before. We had never done this before. And then to have to raise kids through this, and then you had the racial upheaval that happened, you know, with George Floyd and the grief, the collective grief around that, like, and we're still healing from that. 

 

00:37:50    Alyssa

Very much still in it. 

 

00:37:52    Brandi

Upheaval and political upheaval and a pandemic, a global pandemic, upheaval, more upheaval, that right there, it's so much to grieve. And I think if we just really sat with what we experienced, like really sat with it, I think so many of us, one, we would be so much better. We would be so much better. I believe we would be so much freer. I mean, I don't know if you remember - 

 

00:38:27    Alyssa

I think freer for sure. 

 

00:38:28    Brandi

Freer for sure. 

 

00:38:30    Alyssa

Collectively freer. 

 

00:38:32    Brandi

Collectively. 

 

00:38:33    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:38:34    Brandi

I remember looking online and seeing all of these, during 2020, and there was a part that was a little entertaining, but there were these people that would lash out at the grocery store, online. I don't know if you remember seeing, and it would be like, this person would start throwing the shopping cart because they, you know, and they're, I mean, of course, someone has it on camera and they're just--

 

00:39:01    Alyssa

 It's a tantrum in the grocery store. 

 

00:39:04    Brandi

It's a tantrum and it's an adult. 

 

00:39:06    Alyssa

Correct. 

 

00:39:07    Brandi

But I remember seeing that and thinking they're grieving. They're grieving, and they're hurt, and they don't know how to process it because they weren't given the tools to obviously process it. And so now they're throwing a cantaloupe in the grocery store. 

 

00:39:29    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:39:30    Brandi

You know, and it's not so different than our children when they have hard moments, right? When they're just like, ah! 

 

00:39:37    Alyssa

Exactly. 

 

00:39:38    Brandi

They're not giving us a hard time, they're having a hard time. 

 

00:39:40    Alyssa

Correct. 

 

00:39:41    Brandi

And it's the same thing with adults, you know. Most people, I don't believe, mean us harm. 

 

00:39:49    Alyssa

Agreed. 

 

00:39:49    Brandi

I think many people, when we see them reacting in such a big way, they're having a hard time. 

 

00:40:01    Alyssa

They're dysregulated and we haven't taught folks how to access curiosity, whether it's for yourself or for others. When you're experiencing dysregulation and how to tap into rest and ease, how to say, I have this desire to keep doing. And if I can't access curiosity, that means I need to take a break. 

 

00:40:30    Brandi

I need to take a break. I need to stop. 

 

00:40:33    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. And we don't, we are right back on social media. You're right back to scrolling. you're right back to that triggered state. And I think one of the things that I really took from the pandemic. So I was pregnant in January of 2020. I started miscarrying in February, wound up needing a D&C, but was non -emergent. So I just bled on and off for months, got a D&C in May of 2020. Pregnant with my now three -year -old in June of 2020. So it was like a whirlwind, like miscarrying in right as the pandemic is starting, like navigating that, and then very surprisingly pregnant right after a D&C. And I really took it as a season to just pause. I paused. And it was actually from like a business perspective, not great, because it was a booming time for business. And we grew and things like that, but had the ability to like skyrocket. And I was like, I can't right now. What I need in this season is ease and rest. And really like moved into just ease and rest. And it allowed me to be curious. And then as I jumped back into life, as things opened back up, and I started to notice like different seasons where I wasn't able to be curious, where I was in a more dysregulated state where I'm not able to be curious myself and also not with others, like less compassionate, more us versus them on things. I was like, oh, you're in it again, Alyssa, like you need to rest. 

 

00:42:33    Brandi

Yeah. Yeah. Rest is one of those things that I, now being in my forties, I'm like, wow, wow. Like it is literally our lifeline. 

 

00:42:47    Alyssa

Literally. And I think we don't know how to do it. 

 

00:42:50    Brandi

No, we don't because I mean, culture has taught us that we're supposed to go go go go go hustle hustle hustle, you know..

 

00:42:57    Alyssa

Be accessible at every moment. Don't miss that text or that call or that email or that DM or that comment,  like.... 

 

00:43:03    Brandi

Who knows what happens, you know we don't know what's gonna happen and One of the things that has helped me really thrive and kind of take away the noise of that is this one, is this mantra that I have of everything that's for me is for me. 

 

00:43:25    Alyssa

Break that down. 

 

00:43:27    Brandi

Everything that is meant for me, either A, I'm going to feel aligned toward, B, it's not going to kill me. Because I don't think that's how that works. Things that are for you shouldn't kill you. I just don't believe that. I don't believe that, you know, nor do I subscribe to that. And yeah, I believe that everything that is for me, it's for me. So I don't have to rush. I don't have to chase. I don't have to tackle, tackle down this opportunity because if I don't get it, it's gonna, I'm gonna miss. No, everything that's for me is for me. And I-- 

 

00:44:17    Alyssa

Shift from scarcity to abundance. 

 

00:44:19    Brandi

Well, that's exactly what it is. It's abundance. It's a shift. 

 

00:44:25    Alyssa

There's enough for you. 

 

00:44:27    Brandi

Yes. Yes. 

 

00:44:28    Alyssa

And if you miss this opportunity, there's another one. 

 

00:44:31    Brandi

There's another one. It's enough. It's enough. And I think that it is exactly that. When we have this idea that I must kill myself in the process. It's all out of scarcity. It's all out of lack.  It's all out of this fear that it's not going to be enough. And so when that happens, I talk to little girl Brandi and I remind her that one, she's safe, two, it's enough. Everything that's happening for you is for you. And if it misses you, there's more coming. There's more coming, which is wonderful. And also too, I'm a very practical person. So I think of like, sometimes playing the reminder game or remind yourself of all the things possibly that you didn't get. Imagine the things that didn't work out. When I think of those things, I honestly can't think of many, if any, that didn't work out that I'm like, man, I really wish the majority of things that missed me, I'm grateful they did.

 

00:45:51    Alyssa

Totally. 

 

00:45:52    Brandi

I am so grateful that they did. Like I can literally count them on one hand and be like, oh my God, I'm so glad that one missed me. I'm glad that didn't work out. And so sometimes we have to remind ourselves, you know, of just the process, right? 

 

00:46:11    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:46:11    Brandi

And so when I do that, I'm like, you know what, everything that's for me is for me. It's not going to miss me. 

 

00:46:20    Alyssa

There's so much security in that. 

 

00:46:23    Brandi

Yes. And a lot of rest in that too. 

 

00:46:26    Alyssa

Yeah. Well, it's that ability to recognize when we are in scarcity and say like, I need to slow down. Actually, I need to just like pause. I need to... Yesterday I went to lunch and I sat in my backyard after I picked my three -year -old up from childcare and just watched him play and visited with the neighbor. And there were 7 million things on my to -do list. And I was like, I'm just going to do this. And I left my phone inside and I just hung out. And then it's wild. It's not a whole lot of time. And it didn't have be a week away or a vacation or whatever. It was really leaving my phone inside and sitting in my backyard and visiting just gave me so much more capacity. 

 

00:47:15    Brandi

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, 

 

00:47:18    Alyssa

Yeah. 

 

00:47:20    Brandi

Rest is a beautiful thing. 

 

00:47:21    Alyssa

Its so beautiful. And I think it's a huge part in your book On Thriving, it's such a huge part of thriving is allowing that and recognizing what we can do, what we can't do in this moment, what is in our control, what is not in our control, and that we are enough. 

 

00:47:50    Brandi

Yes. Yes. 

 

00:47:52    Alyssa

Not our job to save the world. 

 

00:47:54    Brandi

Well, that's the thing, I think, too. A lot of that stems from that enough-ness or the lack thereof, feeling that not enough. So when you feel like that, you're going to possibly try to save the world when it's impossible. Try to do all the things when it's impossible. It's like, take a breath, hand on your heart. It's enough. I'm enough. It's enough. I'm enough. 

 

00:48:20    Alyssa

Such a huge, huge, powerful message. Brandi, I love you. Where can folks find you, snag your book, learn more about your work? 

 

00:48:32    Brandi

Yeah. So you can find me on Instagram. I'm @bstereo. And as far as the book, wherever books are sold, On Thriving is everywhere books are sold. So if you want to go into your local bookstore, you can, or if you want to go into your Barnes and Noble or shop online, that's cool too. It's everywhere. 

 

00:48:55    Alyssa

Awesome. On Thriving: Harnessing Joy Through Life's Great Labors. Thank you so much for hanging out with me, Brandi. 

 

00:49:03    Brandi

Oh, my gosh. Thank you. So much fun. 

 

 

[Music]

 

00:49:11    Alyssa

We had Sagey's back to school open house. He's in a new classroom this year. He's in a two's room last year. This year, it's mixed threes and fours, preschool, pre -K. 

 

00:49:21    Rachel

Okay. 

 

00:49:22    Alyssa

I love his teacher, super jazzed, she's rad, and like a really good energy for him. And we go to this open house, we're in the classroom, he's checking things out, and then he goes, okay, can we go to my real classroom now? And I was like, what do you mean? He was like, you know, my classroom that I really go to. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is it. 

 

00:49:47    Rachel

Yep, this is the one. 

 

00:49:52    Alyssa

And then started all of the transition emotions. 

 

00:49:56    Rachel

Of course, yeah. 

 

00:49:57    Alyssa

Because he was like, yeah, this is fun to play in this room. Not my real room. 

 

00:50:01    Rachel

Right, this is...

 

00:50:01    Alyssa

Nothing will be changing in my life. 

 

00:50:02    Rachel

This is just the fake room, the pretend room. 

 

00:50:06    Alyssa

Yeah, that I get to go to play sometimes. But yeah, so, but he's actually so far, knock on wood, been doing really well. Yeah, he's so cute. I, yesterday was his first full day and I picked him up. We're on the way home and he, so some of the kids from his classroom before are in his class this year. And then the other kids are the four year olds who were in that were the younger kids in the classroom last year. Right. And, uh, so there's some new kids for him. And I was like, oh, you know, buddy, this morning when I said goodbye to you and left to go to work, you were playing with somebody in the kitchen area. That person's a new person for me. Can you tell me some things about them? And he told me their name and then he goes, Mama, she is so, so, so, so kind. And I was like, oh, yes. And I was like, oh, what are some things that she did that were kind. And he said, she even let me have a toy that she really wanted. So exaggerated like that. And I was like, oh my God, precious. And Daniel Tiger has the first day friend story for first day of school. And I was like, oh, was she your first day friend? And he goes, you know what? I guess she was. So cute. 

 

00:51:37    Rachel

So adorable. We are also in back -to -school land, and I was talking with my dad last night about how different my children are, which I know this, but it kind of was brought to my attention yesterday. So yesterday after soccer practice, which, tangent, Nora is now in the middle school division for soccer, so it is really intense and a lot of our time. It basically means that I entertain Abel for two hours after school at the field three days a week. That's basically it. 

 

00:52:16    Alyssa

How fun. 

 

00:52:17    Rachel

So anyway, we get in the car after soccer practice, and to give some background, at my kids' school, something that happens if you're having a hard time or not listening or whatever is you go outside onto the blacktop and you walk around and do laps. When I first heard of this years ago, I was like, oh, I hate that, whatever, I had a lot of strong feelings about it. Now as time has gone on, I'm kind of like, I would like them to frame it differently as like you're having a hard time,

 

00:52:45    Alyssa

It's like a sensory break.

 

00:52:46    Rachel

You're having a hard time so let's get some movement in, instead of like, you're not listening, so go do laps. 

 

00:52:50    Alyssa

Go do laps. Its like the military. 

 

00:52:53    Rachel

I don't like the delivery, but I actually do like that they have the opportunity for movement when they're having a hard time. So anyway. 

 

00:53:01    Alyssa

Me too. 

 

00:53:02    Rachel

Since Nora started school, from kindergarten this started, she has been terrified of getting laps, which is because embarrassment is a big thing for her. So it would be like that her peers saw her being spoken to, not the laps themselves. So we're in the car yesterday, and Abel, my kindergartner, is like, hey, sissy, I got a lap today. And Nora goes, what? You get laps in kindergarten? And Abel was like, yep. And I was driving and I'm like, Oh, what happened, buddy? And he goes, Oh, I just couldn't stop talking to Ethan, his bestie that he sits next to. And Nora goes, Were you upset? Were you scared? He goes, No, I didn't like it. I didn't want to do it. But I just did it real quick. And that was it. 

 

00:53:57    Alyssa

I could see him also being like, kind of like the laps. I'm gonna keep doing this thing. 

 

00:54:02    Rachel

He's not afraid of disappointing the adults in his world. 

 

00:54:07    Alyssa

Correct. 

 

00:54:08    Rachel

At all. So for him, he was just like, yeah, I couldn't stop talking to Ethan. So then Miss Jenny said, I need to go outside for a second. Like, no biggie. But it was just like, wow, I'm just parenting such different children because also just of note, Nora's in fifth grade and has never received a lap. 

 

00:54:29    Alyssa

Yeah. He's, what, one week into kindergarten? 

 

00:54:32    Rachel

Yeah, it's so good. 

 

00:54:35    Alyssa

It's so good. Oh my gosh. I feel like this is gonna be me down the road with my two vastly different humans. 

 

00:54:46    Alyssa

Yeah, I think Mila's gonna be a honey badger. 

 

00:54:49    Alyssa

Oh yeah. 

 

00:54:50    Alyssa

Cause you are. 

 

00:54:51    Alyssa

Yeah, lover, uh -huh. 

 

00:54:52    Rachel

So, and that's pretty much how Abel is. Like, he's just like, this is who I am. His teacher was like, he calls my bluff. I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, the other day he wouldn't stop talking really loud and we were in like a school assembly situation and I like gave him several reminders. Then at one point I went up to him and I was like, Abel, do you need to come sit with me? And she was like, I expect him to be like, no, I'm sorry, I'll be quiet. And he was just like, yeah, I think I do. 

 

00:55:25    Alyssa

Oh, it's so good, it's so real. Yeah, Sagey is so Zach, and-- 

 

00:55:32    Rachel

So Zach. 

 

00:55:33    Alyssa

--just like fast forward to high school, Zach was, like, almost never went to parties, or if he ever did, he like drove, he never drank, he didn't do whatever. And I was throwing parties at my household, just like so vastly different humans. And I have birthed one of each of us really, I know, they're their own people, and all that jazz and whatever. But like, Zach and Sage are so similar. 

 

00:55:58    Alyssa

Yeah, and she's so much like you. 

 

00:55:59    Alyssa

And she's so much like me. 

 

00:56:01    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

00:56:01    Alyssa

And it's interesting because Zach has a different understanding of Sage. They connect in a different way because they really, he gets him in a way that for me, I understand theoretically, but I'm just like, in my body, I don't understand. 

 

00:56:24    Rachel

Right. Like, the somatic experience is so different. Yeah.

 

00:56:29    Alyssa

Yeah. And Beaner's, Zach has been like, oh my gosh, it's so loud. He needs a break from her. And I'm just like, yeah, yeah. I just get it. She will yell. She roars. She climbs all over you. She's a lion. She roars. And it doesn't trigger me. And I feel like I understand her nonverbal communication in a way that Zach doesn't because it is, it like innately feels like, yeah, well, here's what she's communicating because it's something that I embody. 

 

00:57:06    Rachel

1000%. Also like Sage, as an infant, his communication was quite subtle and you really had to be like honed in on him to pick up on what he was communicating. And like Mila's just like, she's gonna make sure you hear her. 

 

00:57:23    Alyssa

Anything but subtle, yeah. Anything but subtle. Like her latest thing lately, dinner is a hard time in our household and it's something that we've just kind of let go of in a lot of ways. It is his most dysregulated time of day. It's also, he often poops at the end of the day and so it is the hardest meal for him. All this to say, she slams dinner. She... 

 

00:57:49    Rachel

Not hard. 

 

00:57:50    Alyssa

Correct. Right. For her, food is not the same sensory experience it is for him and whatever. And so that's like her meal that she typically pounds. She'll have like four ounces of formula and like a jar of food and then whatever we're eating she'll eat. Like she just slays. 

 

00:58:08    Rachel

Eating is not stressful for her in the way that it is for him. 

 

00:58:13    Alyssa

Correct. And in fact, she loves it because everyone's sitting around hanging out and she's like, this is the bomb. We're all hanging out together. Everyone's chatting. I have people's attention sometimes, but I'm also just a part of the hang. It's her dream. And when, what we've noticed is because he'll get up when he's done and he'll go play and we stay and eat. And now she's screaming to get out of her chair because she's not at the table. And I'm like, shoot, what is this going to look like, because then she's still hungry. 

 

00:58:49    Rachel

Yeah, we, this happens for my child who can never stop moving her body, doesn't stay at the table very long, ever. And then Abel, who is still hungry and would still sit, is like, but sissy's playing. I want to go play. I'm like, uh, I don't have a good solution for you. Nine years in, so. 

 

00:59:15    Alyssa

Yeah, I was just like, oh man, and this is the start of this, like she's still hungry, but she's like, no, he's over there playing. And she will scream. And then she understands so much what we're saying and I will validate, like, oh, did you see Sagey got up? And she's like, huh, huh, huh, huh, huh. 

 

00:59:34    Rachel

Yeah, she's like, I'm trying to be with him. What is he doing? 

 

00:59:36    Alyssa

Hello, why aren't we all going over there? 

 

00:59:38    Rachel

Right. Oh man, yeah, it's always like the, when there are competing needs, it's really hard for me. 

 

00:59:46    Alyssa

Yeah, so hard. So hard. Yeah. Who are we chatting about today? 

 

00:59:54    Rachel

Today, we are chatting about Brandi Sellerz-Jackson. 

 

01:00:00    Alyssa

Oh, yeah. Thriving Through Grief? 

 

01:00:02    Rachel

Thriving Through Grief. 

 

01:00:04    Alyssa

Yeah, I like her. 

 

01:00:06    Rachel

I do too. I have a lot of thoughts, but one of the things that stuck out most to me was that like you can't do your way out of grief, and that grief is - 

 

01:00:18    Alyssa

That would be so nice. 

 

01:00:19    Rachel

Wouldn't it? I think like - 

 

01:00:21    Alyssa

That was a good Maine accent, 'wouldn't it?' 

 

01:00:24    Rachel

I think sometimes for me, in my life, I've conflated grief and sadness, and then like, okay, I'm sad, let me like cry, process, whatever, and then like I'm going to be done. And grief doesn't work that way. 

 

01:00:45    Alyssa

No, it's like, I think, great comparison here of these two, because I think you're absolutely right. Like, we often do, because they can go hand in hand, right?

 

01:00:54    Rachel

 And they can feel so similar in like your body. 

 

01:00:58    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. And that for me, sadness is more fleeting. It doesn't last as long. Grief is like a storm cloud that can hang for a while and then, yeah, it comes and goes, but especially at the beginning of grieving something, that storm cloud is just like there. It's like, I'm going through days where that is in the background, even if other emotions come up, versus like sadness I'll experience and then that cloud passes. And it might come back again, But grief, it's just like, I don't know, I guess like a fog. 

 

01:01:40    Rachel

Yeah, it's just like heavy. 

 

01:01:41    Alyssa

You're in it. It's so heavy. 

 

01:01:43    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:01:44    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's so much that we don't recognize that we are grieving. You know, I had said to Zach recently, I realized that I had been grieving the loss of flexibility in my time with Sage. And it went from like, you know, first kid, only kid, where I could spend all my time with him if I wanted, you know, or like work and him and us. And I got to have a bunch of one -on -one time if I wanted with him. And now when we tag team the kids, the one who nurses comes with me. 

 

01:02:31    Rachel

Of course. 

 

01:02:32    Alyssa

And the one who doesn't goes with Zach. And I was like, oh, I know that I'm never going to have again, it'll show up in different ways in different seasons. I'll have alone time and stuff again with Sage in ways that I don't right now, but I'm never going to have again a life where he's my only kid. And just like grieving that, that I will always now be pulled in different directions. 

 

01:02:58    Rachel

Yeah. I felt that when Abel was younger a lot, and I think too, there's this idea of like, well, just hand off the baby and then you can spend some time. And it's like, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that right now I want to hand off the baby and hang out with my older kid. I'm saying I'm grieving what can never happen again, 

 

01:03:23    Alyssa

Yes. 

 

01:03:24    Rachel

Which is what our relationship was before this. And I think it's also hard for people to verbalize this, because then it's like you feel guilt, right? Because you're saying, like, oh, I missed before I had this second child. Those two things can coexist, which she talks about in this episode of the both and. Obviously you love Mila more than life itself. And your relationship with Sage is forever changed. 

 

01:03:51    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

 

01:03:54    Rachel

And it's okay to grieve that. And that doesn't mean that you love Mila any less. 

 

01:04:00    Alyssa

A hundred percent. And thank you for that delineation that like, yeah, it's not that I just want to like hand her off and go on a little Sagey date. 

 

01:04:06    Rachel

Right. 

 

01:04:07    Alyssa

Cause I can do that right now. It is that like our relationship is forever changed. 

 

01:04:13    Rachel

Yeah. I felt that with Nora a lot in Abel's infancy. 

 

01:04:18    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah. And I like just, it just kind of hit me that I was like, I think I'm grieving that now. 

 

01:04:25    Rachel

Well, I feel like too, like you haven't really had the brain space to think about grieving that with like, she really hated sleep for the first half--

 

01:04:35    Alyssa

Well, she loved sleep and then she hated it. And now we're moving back into a space where sometimes sleep happens. 

 

01:04:41    Rachel

But I think that you were so deeply sleep deprived for a lot of her early, like up until quite recently. Like, yeah, your brain probably hasn't had time to be like, Oh, wait, like, yeah, 

 

01:04:52    Alyssa

Do you want to know what's really jacked up? 

 

01:04:55    Rachel

What?

 

01:04:55    Alyssa

I started antidepressants right around the time that she actually stopped sleeping. So I was like, oh, what would it have looked like if I had started an antidepressant way earlier and been sleeping? Because I kept being like, oh, I feel this way because blah blah. And then it was like, no, I am sleeping. I am getting outside and whatever, which then led to me being like, I think I need to be on a medication. And now I'm like, shoot, I look back and it's like, cool. The time that she was like sleeping a nine hour stretch, I also had postpartum depression, unmedicated. And then I got medicated and then she was like, all right, I'm just gonna wake up a bunch. 

 

01:05:40    Rachel

Yeah, I mean. 

 

01:05:41    Alyssa

But no, we have had some stretches lately, Rach, and it is glorious. 

 

01:05:45    Rachel

You really needed it. 

 

01:05:47    Alyssa

Oh, sweet mother, I did. 

 

01:05:49    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:05:50    Alyssa

It is the biggest, it has the biggest impact on my mental health. I mean, it's why like people who shame sleep training, I have no time for. Because if it means that I want to run away from my family, or I'm a rage filled parent, versus sleep training, which frankly, we didn't do, but if we had, it's in my kids best interest for me to do that. 

 

01:06:18    Rachel

100%. I mean, I think that a lot of the sleep training hate online comes from a place of like not trusting women to know what's best for their families. 

 

01:06:30    Alyssa

Agreed

 

01:06:30    Rachel

And it's pretty clear in the research that maternal mental health has huge impacts on the wellbeing and development of babies. So maybe we should just trust women to know what they need. 

 

01:06:46    Alyssa

Legit, legit. Did anything else come up for you grief wise in this episode? 

 

01:06:51    Rachel

I think mostly like, first of all, I felt validated. One thing that came up for me while I was listening to it is like, I'll still sometimes like shit on myself when I start feeling sad about having had cancer. 

 

01:07:07    Alyssa

Sure. 

 

01:07:08    Rachel

Or like when I am like around an appointment or like the diagnosis date, I will feel sad. And then I'm like, well, I should be grateful, and, you know, all of these things. And like survivor's guilt comes into all of that. And so one thing that was like validating during this was that like it is normal for grief to ebb and flow and that it's not something that you have to, you don't have to do anything to stop it or make it go away. You can just let it be what it is, which is hard to do. 

 

01:07:46    Alyssa

Oh, it's so hard. I think like all of us as humans, our greatest work is not trying to do our way out of hard feelings and grief being one of those hard feelings and hard experiences. But it is just like you don't have to find a silver lining. You don't have to goodify it and being able to be like, yeah, we're gonna be in this. We're gonna feel this and be in it. For me, I have two things that come up. One, I don't wanna infect the people around me with my bad mood. That was something I heard. And, and two, I will literally say to Zach, this isn't how I wanna spend my life. Like I will tell him, I'm not having a good time here. And he's like, oh, no kidding. Feeling sad isn't fun. Of course, we're not having a good time. No one's having a good time with this. But I will say, I'm not having a good time here and this is not how I want to spend my life when I'm in a hard feeling and have to really work. Sadness is a big one for me. I have to really work to be like, part of being alive and moving through this is being in it and experiencing it. It's like frigging labor and delivery for me. 

 

01:09:12    Rachel

Yep. 

 

01:09:13    Alyssa

Part of having a kid is this. 

 

01:09:16    Rachel

Yeah. The other thing that that just kind of like sparked in my mind is one thing for me that I'm really good at is like catastrophizing. So I'll like feel sad, and then I'll be like, oh, well, I'm never gonna feel good again. So I guess here we go. And so I have to tell my, I literally have to tell myself, like, you felt this before, and it didn't last forever. And it's going to be the same this time. It feels so intense and consuming, and it's not gonna be forever. But I have to literally tell myself that. 

 

01:09:47    Alyssa

Yeah, and I'm just like, I just wanna skip this part. Like I don't want to do it. 

 

01:09:53    Rachel

Can we skip to the good part? 

 

01:09:55    Alyssa

It's like when I was birthing Mila, and I was like, can I tap out? Can somebody else tap in? Like, I don't wanna do it anymore. This isn't fun for me. I'm not having a good time. That for me is what comes up. And I also think of like Brené's work and how much she taught us about the numbing of emotions and that when we try to numb the bad parts, we also numb the parts that we do love and enjoy and the like good parts, if you will. And it, of course, is easy to be like, oh, when we're having like a good time or we're feeling happy or feeling excited or calm or content to be like, I just want to freeze this and have this forever. 

 

01:10:41    Rachel

Yeah. 

 

01:10:43    Alyssa

And that the only way we get to have those moments is when we allow ourselves to experience the hard stuff so that we can get back to those. Otherwise, it lingers. We try to bury it and then we can't sit and feel content or calm or connected or happy because there's sadness beneath the surface or fear or whatever. 

 

01:11:03    Alyssa

Yeah. Yeah, this was a good one. Oh, that's a good one. Grief, man. Grief. 

 

01:11:10    Rachel

It'll getcha. 

 

01:11:12    Alyssa

It'll getcha. 

 

01:11:15    Alyssa

Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.

 

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